Investing in precious metals. Lead... huh?

[Animal]

Folks, I tend to think a lot about what works without the power grid and what doesn't. I try to be prepared for any possible problem that would threaten the welfare of my family. I started to think about this stuff more and more after a severe storm fried our electric water well one year. It was a humbling experience to not be able to get water out of our water faucets. When I lived in the city, this never happened. A power outage would just inconvenience our lives for a short time, but this was the first time my home had been without water. So, I learned from that experience and took necessary steps for a short-term outrage, and I am planing a permanent solution, a hand crank water well, hopefully next year.

I hear about folks investing in silver and gold. Perhaps I'm not educated enough in these matters, but I'm not sure how these metals can comfort my family in the event of a worst-case scenario. It seems like a useless item to invest in when no one can eat it, drink it, melt it over a camp fire or burn it to stay warm. However, I can do many things with lead and zinc over a hot camp fire. I can make bullets, make-shift blades and probably a few other things I haven't thought of.

I guess I'm curious as to what the consensus is among seasoned casters and investment savvy folks. How important is it for you to have silver and gold in a SHTF situation vs. wheel weights and other lead forms?

[USAFrox]

Personally, I've not seen the utility in investing in gold. Yes, it supposedly is a reservoir of value that will always be "valuable", but in a real WTSHTF scenario, if everyone is worried about having food to eat, water to drink, and safety - I can't think of ANYONE who will trade anything of survival value for some gold. I sure wouldn't. Would you?

[62chevy]

Gold is just one form of barter out of hundreds of things to trade with. I think gold flake is a better form than ingots of gold.

[DeanWinchester]

Gold and silver investments are only sound if you know the 'system' will recover. They will let you lock in you money's worth because gold never really changes in value. Several bars of gold would buy you a nice home a thousand years ago. Several bars will STILL buy you a nice home. Money fluctuates making the perceived value of gold change.

As as far as I am concerned gold is worthless. Sure, I'd love to have a hundred pounds of it right now but be serious. You can't go spend it. You have to exchange it for money. When TSHTF it will still be worthless to anyone but a fool. You can't eat it. You can't make much out of it without supporting industry. Jewelry is worthless.
Put your investments in things that will not lose value in a healthy market and will also have value in a total collapse. Factory ammo for one. You can't sell reloads in a healthy economy so reloads will only be of value after the system collapses. Ammo prices are NEVER going to go down much of any.
High quality tools. Not wenches and hammers necessarily but tools you can use to MAKE things you need.
Alcohol will always be worth something. Scotch only gets better with age. Lol! My favorite is Pure Grain Alcohol. I buy a little here and there. Store it in a cool dry place and it will never go bad. You can drink it. Make home remedies. It's a strong antiseptic. On a whim, I once ran a 5 hp Briggs engine on it.


If we're talking hypothetically here and the zombie apocalypse has happened; You come to me needing something I have and you want to trade me gold? You're gonna leave very disappointed.

[joesig]

Those who poo-poo precious metals haven't done honest research about them. You can't eat dollar bills either. Someday you will be able to wipe your butt with them though. Check the REAL value of an ounce of gold from the 1700s to current time and then read up on the Continental. Pretty interesting, huh?

Precious metals are preservation of what wealth you do have. If you don't have much, I agree that is not the place to begin investing.

What's a worse case scenario? EMP taking out the US? Are you going to stay because you want to or because you have to? How are you going to bribe a guard on the Canadian border to get across? ("Hey man, here's a ton of lead for you." or "Here's a couple of Maple Leafs.")

Go to Kitco and check out the charts. Go play with inflation calculators (the REAL S is hitting the fan right NOW). Even with the BS inflation numbers it's plain to see. If EVERYTHING is going up it is code for the dollar is going DOWN! Check out coinflation.com and see what gasoline cost in 1964 and now and ditto for a 1964 quarter.

If you REALLY want to invest in something then invest in TOOLS and SKILLS. They will not depreciate. If you are bugging in then at least you can repair what you own and maybe someone else's stuff. Plant your own food, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I think that stocking up on metal is good. ALL metal. If you need steel, zinc isn't going to cut it. Aluminum won't do some things you can do with brass. etc.


Seriously do some good research on history. Educate yourself and then draw your own conclusions.

[DeanWinchester]

Joesig,

I couldn't agree more! I've been telling folks for a while, "There is NO skill a man ought not at least be familiar with". Fast coming is the day when a man that cannot use the two tools God attached to your wrists will starve and die. The wife laughed at me a little while back because I sat down and learned to crochet. Not very good at it, but I can make simple articles of clothing that certainly beats going naked. In a house with two other grown women, I'm the only one who can use a sewing machine. I'm not good at it but I won't be walking around with my tools hangin' out my tool box.

You ain't gotta be a full time farmer to learn to make things grow.
If you plan to use it in hard times but you don't know how it works, you're a fool destined for failure.

[John Boy]

Diamonds!
Advertise in Senior Citizen Communities - "I buy USED Diamonds"

[DeanWinchester]

Diamonds are no different than gold. They only have value in a stable economy. When men need bread, they ain't gonna trade for rocks.

[merlin101]

Diamonds are no different than gold. They only have value in a stable economy. When men need bread, they ain't gonna trade for rocks.
Not always true, there will always be men that will sell anything and everything for gold even there children! I'm not saying that gold (or silver) is the best investment. I am saying that it may be a real good idea to have a little gold and silver tucked away. Both will always have value if for nothing else to use for barter

[DeanWinchester]

Not always true, there will always be men that will sell anything and everything for gold even there children! I'm not saying that gold (or silver) is the best investment. I am saying that it may be a real good idea to have a little gold and silver tucked away. Both will always have value if for nothing else to use for barter


While I'm sure you're right, there will always be SOME men suffering goldlust, come down here to the south after the poop hits the fan and see what has more value: A lump of gold or a dutch oven full of deer chili an a pone of cornbread.
Shucks! Come to think of it, I'd rather have the home cooked grub right NOW! LOL!!!

[ghh3rd]

I've got a can of Gold Rustoleum paint all ready for my lead ingots should the day come.

[osteodoc08]

Precious metals are valuable after the SHTF has ended and there is still no "economy" per se, but rather a barter system. I feel it necessary to learn how to become self reliant. We may never have to use it, but you just never know.

I think in my lifetime, the worst I will see is economy collapse (like what has been going on in Europe for years) and interclass warfare when the working class gets sick and tired of paying for the folks that feel theyre entitled.

I'm stocked up on canned goods, learning to grow my own food, canning, making cured meats and making sure I am prepared for power outages, water and protection. I have enough hand tools to take care of a small farm including frequently broke items. Gasoline/Diesel will always be commodities, but harder to store now.

I hope I never have to take care of my family like that, but would be prepared the best I could. I would love to have at least some acreage with farm animals as that would be the most valuable. More valuable than any gold or silver.

The foxfire book series is kinda cool as it covers many of the self reliant methods of doing the above.

[Hammerlane]

I say invest in LEAD as I have plenty of Isotope Lead Cores for sale on the Swappin & Sellin forum.

[Animal]

Wow, great responses folks. It seems that most of you share my own thoughts on precious metals. It seems like every time I turn around, some ****** is trying to convince me that I need to invest in gold or silver if I want to survive an economic collapse. They always fail to explain how it is going to help when the economy officially capsizes and the grid goes down.

I told my wife a couple of years ago that I felt the only full-proof way to have a retirement is to plan to live off the grid... bugging in. I'm slowly but surely taking steps in that direction. Bullet casting is just a part of the journey.

Thanks folks, I've really enjoyed all of your post.

[bannor]

I don't see any point in investing lead, either (for shtf) 10% of the population will be dead within a month of the power going out. So there will be tons and tons of ammo (and guns) to be picked up. 90-99% will be dead within a year. there will be diesel generators, clothing, housing, vehicles, 18 wheelers full of fuel, stuff everywhere, just waiting to be picked up. There will be no time for (no need of) casting or reloading ammo. All the livestock will be dead within 2 weeks, all the game within 2 months. So what will you be shooting at, hmm? You won't be practicing, cause the noise will "call in" your killers. Possible exception of silenced subsonic .22lr or pellet gun practice, or maybe airsoft(with a spring powered model). :-)

[bannor]

UNTIL shtf, tho, lead and gold are great stores of value, but you have to be very careful what you pay. If you can't "mine" the dirt berms for your lead, it's pretty expensive stuff. You have to be very careful when (and from who) you buy (and sell to) your gold, too, or you'll lose your butt on it. A few hundred $ worth of metal drums (buried) full of legumes/grain/salt/molasses (or honey) is by far the best place to put a bit of money (for shtf, that is). along with some fish antibiotics and similar low cost, hi-need meds.

[dikman]

If anyone is really paranoid about the Great Apocalypse coming, then as has been said tools and the associated skills that go with them would be where the real value lies. If I might make a suggestion for those people, learn some basic blacksmithing skills. The ability to work hot steel, and make use of scrap steel (which is everywhere) would be worth it's weight in gold - so to speak ;).

[bangerjim]

I have always invested significantly in the metals market. You should have at least 15% of your wealth in gold, sliver, platinum. Those metals have had and will always will have international desire and will maintain an international value, even in your SHTF senerarios! The people that survive will not do it on a stash of lead only.

If you don't like gold, you have never owned it and probably cannot afford it anyway. It is beautiful to touch and hold.

Not bullion! Pre-1934 American coins that are non-confiscatable. A future government could/will confiscate all bullion because when you buy/sell it, the sale is registered when it trades. Old coins are personal property and there is not record of the sale. $20 UNC St. Gaudens gold coins are the best! Avoid the new 1oz American Eagle and Buffalo bullion coins. Bullion not in coin form needs to be assayed when traded, so can be potentially difficult to trade.

Silver is much cheaper on the spot market and is something pretty much anyone can buy and hold. A good source is SILVER half dollars (pre 1974). And those are still worth fifty cents if you need to spend them! But are worth much more for the silver in them. Liberty, Franklin, and early Kennedy coins are readily available to purchase as a purely silver bulk purchase. Market mavens predict silver could out-gain gold (% increase) in the future.

Do what you must. You cannot buy food with bullets. Mabe you plan to steal it? And alcohol is too volatile a commodity. Best plan is to have plenty of all "hedges on disasters" squirreled away for a future incident. I do.

If you really want to invest in survivalist stuff, think about these: large water storage containers, solar panels with rechargeable batteries, power inverters, LED lighting, water purification chemicals, lots of canned meats and veggies, toilet paper (!!). I have! Forget generators....there will be no fuel.

bangerjim

[dtknowles]

......Not bullion! Pre-1934 American coins that are non-confiscatable. A future government could/will confiscate all bullion because when you buy/sell it, the sale is registered when it trades. Old coins are personal property and there is not record of the sale. $20 UNC St. Gaudens gold coins are the best! Avoid the new 1oz American Eagle and Buffalo bullion coins. Bullion not in coin form needs to be assayed when traded, so can be potentially difficult to trade.

Silver is much cheaper on the spot market and is something pretty much anyone can buy and hold. A good source is SILVER half dollars (pre 1974). And those are still worth fifty cents if you need to spend them! But are worth much more for the silver in them. Liberty, Franklin, and early Kennedy coins are readily available to purchase as a purely silver bulk purchase. Market mavens predict silver could out-gain gold (% increase) in the future.

Do what you must. You cannot buy food with bullets. Mabe you plan to steal it? And alcohol is too volatile a commodity. Best plan is to have plenty of all "hedges on disasters" squirreled away for a future incident. I do.

If you really want to invest in survivalist stuff, think about these: large water storage containers, solar panels with rechargeable batteries, power inverters, LED lighting, water purification chemicals, lots of canned meats and veggies, toilet paper (!!). I have! Forget generators....there will be no fuel.

bangerjim

I prefer tenth ounce gold and one ounce silver eagles. How come you say to avoid them? My purchases have not been recorded, I have got them from a few different places and nobody requires personal info.

Why do you think that there will be no fuel, maybe I expect that some of us will remain who could make fuel even after the existing stocks are used up and I would expect that that knowledge would be part of the reason some of us will survive longer than others even if it is just to make fuel for the people who run the show.

When you say that alcohol is to volatile do you mean to attractive and makes you a target as its low vapor pressure should not be a problem.

Are you saying you can get old coins for only a small premium over spot prices?

Suger, flour, beans, rice, I think it is too soon to be gathering too much of that as it has a shelf life and SHTF is not that close, just 6 months of that stuff is enough and use it and rotate the stock.

Around here a large water container would seem silly but water purification equipment would be a good thing to have. I have a couple hundred gallons of water storage but that is just for convenience during hurricanes.

Tim

[smokeywolf]

Financial investing and prepping have startling similarities. Inflation is just going crazy right now. Dairy products have gone up about 20% in the last 6 to 8 months; buy canned and powdered milk, powdered eggs. If you have land, and it's practical and feasible, get a cow or cattle. Beef prices have also gone up at a sickening pace.
Pork has gone up 20 to 40% in the same period of time. If you have the acreage and resources raise them yourself or look to a neighbor with pigs and buy from him/her instead of a supermarket. Chances are you'll get more for your money or at least the same amount but much better quality.

Long story short, you may not be able to procure some or any of your needs at the market in the future; maybe even the near future. If you can swing it, raise your own food.

I've been trying to find ways to reinvest my assets that will make or keep them valuable in a collapse; societal or economic. As people are notorious for buying things they want almost as often as they buy things they need, it would be foolish to completely ignore precious metals. However, if you're dealing with another rational individual, here are some of the things that will be of value to others no matter what happens...

HYGIENE
Toilet Paper - Ten years worth is our goal.
Soap and/or components for making your own body soap, shampoo, toothpaste, dish washing liquid
Mineral Salt Deodorant Stone/Stick (Ammonium Alum)

CLEANING AGENTS/DISINFECTANTS
Alcohol
Bleach (remember, liquid bleach will only store for about 2 years before breaking down and losing potency) Granulated chlorine for swimming pools (Calcium Hypochlorite) stores indefinitely.
Hydrogen Peroxide
Borax

CLOTH
For making diapers, rags, bandages, bandanas, patching clothing, too much to list.
Addendum to "cloth": we've stocked up on cloth diapers and lady's washable-reusable feminine products.

FOOD
Unground wheat stores longer that ground wheat; get a wheat mill that is hand cranked but with bracket/adapter for powered option.
Rice stored properly can be good for 20 years or more.
Salt (Our goal is at least 500 lb. combined of iodized, canning, block)
Sugar
Raw Honey
Vinegar
Seeds (heirloom type)

BOOZE
Cheap Gin, Vodka, Whiskey Tequila for barter
Good Gin, Vodka, Whiskey Tequila for you

OTHER SUPPLIES
Wood Fired Cook Stove
Cast Iron Cookware
Pressure Canner/Cooker(s)
Canning jars plus Lids & Bands
Funnels, Strainers, Utensils
Mylar bags, O2 absorbers, food grade buckets
Writing Supplies - paper, pencils, pens, crayons
Extensive Sewing Kit
String/Twine
Candles
Oil Lamps/spare wick

MEDICAL SUPPLIES
Do your own research.

FUELS (in practical, safely storable quantities)
Propane
Diesel
Gasoline
Kerosene
Paraffin/Lamp Oil

TOOLS
I'm a tool nut. This post is already too long.
One that often shows up in old movies and most Country Folk don't forget, but City People usually overlook... an anvil. You need at least one anvil in your shop and preferably 2 or 3 of varying sizes (weights).

BUILDING SUPPLIES
In addition to the obvious, don't forget...
Electrical wire
Music wire
Large assortment of springs
Baling wire
Plumber's tape
Teflon tape
Duct tape (lots of duct tape)
An assortment of ball bearings

smokeywolf

[dikman]

You forgot the venerable Swiss Army Knife :smile:. That, coupled with duct tape and a bit of wire should enable one to fix anything. If it's good enough for McGuyver........

[GoodOlBoy]

My take on it is that gold is a waste in investment unless (as has been said) you expect the system to recover in your lifetime. I think investing in too much lead will be about the same problem. Because if you don't have enough powder and primer to load it, people are not going to trade for it for long. In point of fact I DO agree that skills are more important. I also think that keeping a bit of good quality high carbon steel on hand, and learning how to primitive forge it is a good idea, good knives will be worth their weight in food. Keeping some sort of seed bank on hand is also important. There are a few books out there on planting "wild" gardens, hidden gardens, etc. Know your primitive medicine. Particularly things like cayenne pepper which will kill off stomach parasites from tainted water, and has other uses. As nutty as it sounds. Learn primitive bow making skills. Eventually, if things don't recover, you will need to know how to make and use slings and bows. Even if you know how to and plan to make your own black powder bows and slings are a very good idea.

I don't agree with the SHTF all life and livestock on the planet die scenario. For three reasons. #1 The probability of both the animal kingdom as a whole, and man being affected by the same illnesses and wiped out is low. #2 Any give disease, virus, etc has around a 5% rate of immunity in any given genus and species. #3 It would be pointless to worry about it because if it DID happen food supplies would dwindle at a rate that wouldn't sustain life. OR if you are talking about mankind wiping out all the critters for food supply by man bear in mind that the actual percentage of people capable of taking wild game in the modern world is fairly low, and those in big cities will have a very low survival rate due to other two legged predators and the nature of panic amongst humans in an enclosed environment.

Once upon a time I played tournament poker, and my own personal rule was that no matter what my hand was I mucked it for the first five hands. Why? Because your all in panic players are going to statistically do something stupid in a big way in those first five hands, and you don't want to get caught in a heat of the moment raw accident. It will be the same way with a SHTF TEOTWAWKI situation. The first Five weeks, five months, whatever you will want to find a good quiet safe place with enough fresh water and food to last you and ride out the initial storm of violence and panic. Remember you are not talking about the standard 48-72 hour "help is coming" survival scenario. You are talking about long term survival. Eventually, even if the "system" doesn't recover, there will be pockets of "civilization" creep back up, and only those who can provide a skill or service will be welcome. IE You don't work you don't eat. Those who can live as the American Indian, the African Tribals, the Australian Aborignies, even the fur traders of old will survive. Those who can't live without a hand out, electricity, and air conditioning won't.

And for those who think this is a far fetched topic? Remember that there were parts of Texas and Louisiana that after Rita and Katrina didn't have power, water food, or fuel for weeks, and in some cases MONTHS. What did law enforcement say when they got a call from somebody who didn't own a non-electric can opener, or didn't stock enough food or water? Are you dying? If not head for a "shelter" or call us when you ARE dying. Ask me sometime how I know....

Three pieces of equipment to absolutely not be without in that case? A good knife, a p38/p51 made by US Shelby Co, and a "church key" bottle and can opener.

My 2 cents.

GoodOlBoy

[bangerjim]

I prefer tenth ounce gold and one ounce silver eagles. How come you say to avoid them? My purchases have not been recorded, I have got them from a few different places and nobody requires personal info.

Why do you think that there will be no fuel, maybe I expect that some of us will remain who could make fuel even after the existing stocks are used up and I would expect that that knowledge would be part of the reason some of us will survive longer than others even if it is just to make fuel for the people who run the show.

When you say that alcohol is to volatile do you mean to attractive and makes you a target as its low vapor pressure should not be a problem.

Are you saying you can get old coins for only a small premium over spot prices?

Suger, flour, beans, rice, I think it is too soon to be gathering too much of that as it has a shelf life and SHTF is not that close, just 6 months of that stuff is enough and use it and rotate the stock.

Around here a large water container would seem silly but water purification equipment would be a good thing to have. I have a couple hundred gallons of water storage but that is just for convenience during hurricanes.

Tim

You must be buying your fractional gold and silver coins from an individual/store that is not a gold certified precious metals marketer. Just like buying a gun "under the table". I buy all my gold from certified, qualified professional soruces that guarantee the quality and content. They are all professionally rated and hermetically sealed in plastic holders.But any purchse of bullion will pop up when you sell it, even if you did "get it under the table" ealier. Mabe not at Bubba's tackle and bait if under the SHTF senerio, but I am not going down that tiolet with my above explanation.

That is why I always buy old (per 1934) coins. The $20 coins are readily available uncirculated or almost there. The smaller ones like you have (if old) were carried to much they many times are worn down severely. Most people could not afford even a $20 coin back then, let alone it being worth almost $2,000 today! The $5 and $10 coins were the most popular for paying for things and everybody carried them.

But I'm glad you are "stocking up" on precious metals!!!!!!! More people should follow suit. Just follow the spot prices and buy when low, as with the stock maret.

Gold has always reflected wealth, status, and security in every society thru history and is still appicalble today.

banger

[clownbear69]

Here's my take on investing precious metals (primarily gold and silver) I don't view it as a wasteful investment at all. But whether you prep or invest in current markets it shouldn't be your sole investment. Having a little should always be your portfolio. I have never seen anybody say have anything more than 10%. If SHTF sure people won't want precious metals. Why would they? But anytime a society crumbles it always rebuilds. And out of rebuilding come currency and currency has always (at least with history) has been gold and silver.

As a side note with gold and silver that most of you haven't looked at is a carrying a bit in a travel situation. If im not mistaken you don't need to declare it when traveling abroad. And the difference with paper money and precious metals, precious metals are universal same value world wide. Just something to think about. And even if you travel in the US having a little bit as a security is always nice. If cash runs out and CC don't work at least you have someting

[Animal]

The only thing that stands out to me, about silver, is its ability to kill bacteria. I don't know much about it, but I understand that silver is the metal of choice for drinking gauntlets in various ceremonies. I don't think you should try this with lead :bigsmyl2:

[fredj338]

I hear about folks investing in silver and gold. Perhaps I'm not educated enough in these matters, but I'm not sure how these metals can comfort my family in the event of a worst-case scenario. It seems like a useless item to invest in when no one can eat it, drink it, melt it over a camp fire or burn it to stay warm. However, I can do many things with lead and zinc over a hot camp fire. I can make bullets, make-shift blades and probably a few other things I haven't thought of.

I guess I'm curious as to what the consensus is among seasoned casters and investment savvy folks. How important is it for you to have silver and gold in a SHTF situation vs. wheel weights and other lead forms?
i tend to agree, for me, in an epic social/govt meltdown, gold or silver isn't on my radar of needs. Food, water, shelter, power, self defense, all rate higher. However, some people will always value such things so having something to trader barter with would be prudent. Of course you need guns & ammo to keep what is yours, but having small silver or gold coins is a good idea, if you have the rest of your stuff in order.
Btw, on using ammo as barter, I just don't see it. If a guy has a gun & no ammo, I win any trade I want. Give a Guy a handful of ammo, maybe he & his buds cone back & take everything. In a lawless society, giving people the ability to kill you seems foolish.:shock:

[bangerjim]

The only thing that stands out to me, about silver, is its ability to kill bacteria. I don't know much about it, but I understand that silver is the metal of choice for drinking gauntlets in various ceremonies. I don't think you should try this with lead :bigsmyl2:

The Romans drank from lead containers and pipes all the time. They even made a sweet beverage out of lead.

Look where that got them!!!!!!!!!!!!

Solid gold is the choice of kings for their adult beverage drinking utensils! I stick with insulated plastic and glass. HO HUM..............

banger

[GoodOlBoy]

But anytime a society crumbles it always rebuilds.

How do you figure that? History is LITTERED with societies that crumbled and collapsed, or just plain disappeared altogether. The Olmec, the Maya, the Nazca, the Mycenae, the Gaul, the Anasazi, the Indus Valley, and any number of others. NONE of whom were "small" societies and civilizations. The list is ALMOST endless of societies that crumbled and were absorbed into other societies as well. Heck the number of lost cities found around the world that we can only GUESS at who once lived in them is staggering! If all these societies collapsed and then rebuilt where did they rebuild?

GoodOlBoy

[smokeywolf]

Because U.S. currency is not officially backed by anything of substance (except oil, and that's unofficial), the risk which continues to grow as the 0 and the Fed Reserve keep printing more currency is that at some point in time, the world economy will abandon the U.S. dollar and switch to the Euro or the Yuan. Should this ever happen, the entitled wealthy will have sufficient advance notice and convert all there dollars to the new currency. But, you and I will find out after the fact, which will leave us with scraps of paper that might prove useful for boolit patching, but pretty much nothing else. However, gold and silver will always be convertible to whatever currency is in use.

Don't forget what happened to so many Southern families who were cheated out of their property after the war of Northern aggression, because they were unable to pay tax liens with Confederate dollars.

smokeywolf

[Animal]

The Romans drank from lead containers and pipes all the time. They even made a sweet beverage out of lead.

Look where that got them!!!!!!!!!!!!

Solid gold is the choice of kings for their adult beverage drinking utensils! I stick with insulated plastic and glass. HO HUM..............

banger

I never grow tired of hearing Roman history. I am always fascinated with there way of life and innovations. I didn't realize they used lead as a water pipe though! Sheesh.

[Animal]

I don't know if any of you guys do this, but when I make ammo for storage, I always make it as generic as possible (usually). I can custom make the ammo to cycle and shoot as accurate as possible in my gun, but that doesn't do me any good if I find myself firing it from a different gun 20 years from now.

[waksupi]

I never grow tired of hearing Roman history. I am always fascinated with there way of life and innovations. I didn't realize they used lead as a water pipe though! Sheesh.

There are still towns in this country with lead pipes.

[smkummer]

Getting back to lead. I am using 100-150 lbs. a year for handgun, subgun, rifle and shotgun shooting as much as I want in competitions and leisure. I have over 500 lbs. in ingots right now which is currently replaceable and I feel good about that. If the SHTF, I would of course cut down on play shooting and I easily have enough for myself until the grave. Same with primers, powder and wads.

[00buck]

butane lighters will be used as barter too.. stock up when they are on sale

[clownbear69]

How do you figure that? History is LITTERED with societies that crumbled and collapsed, or just plain disappeared altogether. The Olmec, the Maya, the Nazca, the Mycenae, the Gaul, the Anasazi, the Indus Valley, and any number of others. NONE of whom were "small" societies and civilizations. The list is ALMOST endless of societies that crumbled and were absorbed into other societies as well. Heck the number of lost cities found around the world that we can only GUESS at who once lived in them is staggering! If all these societies collapsed and then rebuilt where did they rebuild?

GoodOlBoy

Sure those societies didn't rebuild but the people of those societies assimilated into a more prosperous society. Remember those societies took a true "my gods will get me out of this" instead of how can we better ourselves. The society may not always rebuild in its former glory but theres a reason they crumbled to begin with so why would the people want to rebuild what didn't work?

[dtknowles]

I never grow tired of hearing Roman history. I am always fascinated with there way of life and innovations. I didn't realize they used lead as a water pipe though! Sheesh.

I would have thought everyone on this forum would have known, the symbol for Lead on the Periodic Table of Elements (High School Chemistry) is Pb for the Latin word Plumbum and is the root for our English word Plumbing and Plumber. Lead pipe was used for water in this country up until a few decades ago. In my parents house in Maine we pulled out the lead pipe and installed copper. Some of that pipe went into my first round balls for muzzleloaders.

Tim

[MaryB]

1964 and older US 90% silver coins. In 1964 a silver quarter would buy a gallon of gas. Today that same silver quarter can still buy a gallon of gas(and my local station with take them at whatever spot is that day!). My gun dealer will take silver coins in barter now, I see others continuing this after the crash when it happens. Say Bon needs wheat but you don't have it, you trade him $5 of silver coins for his cow and he goes to Joe who has wheat instead and trades that $5 in silver in a few weeks for the wheat he originally needed. It will come back as a medium of money about a year after the crash.

But your number one barter item is going to be some skills. Sure reloading and casting we all do is one but food preservation, meat curing, making clothing, working leather(I am learning this now) will all be useful barter items.

[dtknowles]

I agree that one of the big barter items will be labor and Craft works. I think I would become a baker if things go bad. I can make good bread and OK cakes. I think that Baking Soda, Baking Powder, Yeast, and Sour Dough Starter would be good items to stock to trade. I think I would accept Silver or Gold for my bread and hope my suppliers would accept the same. Pre 64 silver dimes would be good as a full ounce buys a lot of bread.

Tim

[hickfu]

My brother invests in gold and silver and kept telling me that I needed to as well.. I told him I will put my money into lead and he didnt get why.... until I told him with my lead, I can take his gold! [smilie=l:

Now he says if the economy crashes he will hire me to keep his gold and silver safe... He makes darn good money and has a lot..

[jmort]

Silver has been a bitter mistress for me. I would rather have gold/silver as opposed to paper $$$. In the end, I would rather have barter goods that you can eat/shoot/heal. Bullets Beans Bandages. I know of guy who has hundreds NIB Glocks. I think that is a wise investment. Buys a couple few every week.

[Defcon-One]

I would not barter with Guns or ammo. They can be turned against you very soon after the trade!

Food does not store well. Good food is even harder to store. You gotta be able to grow it or raise it to be viable long term. The stash is only there to get you through until the crops come in.

I have skills, but I do not expect to trade them for much in a crisis. Most of the "survivors" that you'll run into will also have those skills. That is why they will survive.

I save factory ammo as a protection against some kind of social/financial crisis or rogue Government. I consider them defensive assets. I currently use my lead for reloading ammo, to shoot! The factory ammo is preserved by shooting the homemade stuff. I do not think that stocking up on reloading supplies is as good of an idea as stocking up on factory ammo. The factory ammo is always gonna be better, store better and work better.

I have zero confidence in the US dollar. Our government has abandoned it, or at least printed it into a corner. Other countries are abandoning it. The petro-dollar which fueled our economy for decades is fading fast and gonna die. When that happens the dollar will be gone for good. If you have anything in US dollars it will be gone. I, too, would rather have my assets in gold/silver as opposed to the paper dollar. The dollar will just become another broken promise from our leaders.

I have real estate, both land and homes. I have some food stored. I have some ammo and guns. I have some Gold and Silver.

I hope that it never gets to that point, but if it does, it will really be terrible and everything that I have will help make things better, including the gold and silver.

[kryogen]

well, gold in the federal reserve might all be plated tungsten.
More on google...

I would not invest in precious metals.

So wrong that we, mere mortals, work for a salary while some people might have stolen 600 000 000 000 $ worth of gold... eh.

http://www.wallstreetdaily.com/2013/07/16/fort-knox-gold/
http://nsnbc.me/2013/04/18/federal-reserve-refuses-to-submit-to-an-audit-of-germanys-gold-held-in-u-s-vaults-2/

[Defcon-One]

Yeah, they sold all that (5.5 metric tons ) to China in the last 5 years! They are believed to still be holding about 2 metric tons, but no way to confirm that.

All this only makes what we have more valuable!!!!! It also confirms why the dollar will likely collapse after Obama stops the printing presses. The stock market will no longer be held up artificially and it will crash, then the domino affect will take out the whole economy. They will blame it on the Republicans!

Might happen, might not, either way gold and silver will be better than paper money. Any paper money, not just the US dollar!

[RogerDat]

Comparing paper money to silver and gold while discussing total SHTF where we all have to grow our own food in a decimated world seems sort of missing the point. If society totally collapses paper money is useless while precious metals have been a portable medium of exchange for thousands of years. If society does not collapse not much barter going to involve gold and silver coins to purchase a pig or cow.

If one considers actual disordered situations that impact societies (real not speculative) you are mostly looking at:
Conflict (Syria, Libya, parts of Africa) where a known good currency is required for bribes and durable goods in scarce supply. You want to leave places where folks are fighting and blowing things up or rule of law has broken down it's probably going to be expensive. Polarized we are but not sure we are anywhere close to the condition of countries where this has happened. Not that tribal. Most of us actually think of ourselves as Americans, as one nation indivisible and all that.

Natural disaster. Currency works for natural disaster due to it's local nature, paper money will purchase supplies or materials brought in from outside the effected area. Gas station might not be able to do credit cards but will sell gas for cash with its pumps running on generator (happened locally) or you may have to purchase supplies at high markup from those that have them if supplies are scarce. You may wish to migrate to an unaffected area where they may not take a check and your local bank may have been effected by same disaster you are dealing with.

There are also instances of runaway inflation (Argentina, Africa, Iran) where the purchasing power of paper money drops by the week. Some of that is driven by the fact that foreign debt is not denominated in those local currencies. US debt is denominated in dollars we can't really default (without Congress being idiots) but we can find ourselves unable to borrow to finance our deficits or imports (Greece, Spain, Italy) if our economy falters by enough or we oversupply the market with dollars so each is has lower value and requires greater interest to be worth getting back in x number of years. Precious metal investment protects individual against that sort of hyper inflation more than anything else.


As an investment of disposable income to accumulate and hold wealth precious metals are a decent option if one is willing to do the homework to make good investment decisions AND can afford to be wrong about the investment increasing in value.

Me I figure my money is best invested in things I can and will use in the normal course of events, Tornado or ice storm could disrupt things locally is most likely scenario. Followed by financial loss. I like having enough food I will use in the pantry to manage a disruption or as a hedge against lean times, not going to make a massive investment in surviving the apocalypse bomb shelter food supply. I can use solar panel and battery on camper when camping, can shoot the lead and bullets I purchase. Having some booze in the house good but not going to sink my money into cheap grain alcohol I won't drink or a stash of Glocks I won't shoot. Want to learn to forge knives as a hobby then it makes sense purchasing some equipment but storing a "blacksmith shop" for SHTF possibility seems a waste of money.

I guess I think Mad Max is a fictional movie not a good prediction of what is on the horizon. And certainly not a guide to investing. Worse case scenario I'm a whole lot better stocked than the average pioneer and if they could survive than so can I. Might even lose a few extra pounds I put on in the last 10 years.

[smokeywolf]

Although I think it's wise to be prepared for the unlikely, I do think it's unlikely that the economy will go into a complete collapse. Rich people stay rich and get richer by investing in lucrative financial instruments/vehicles; like oil (Standard Oil), pharmaceuticals Pfizer) and insurance (AIG). If there is no currency of value nor any consumers to buy the products offered by these companies, the companies don't make profits and the rich people don't get their money.

Since our government is controlled by the wealthy, I think it unlikely that the wealthy will allow idiots in government to cause a massive economic collapse.

I just can't imagine Warren Buffet taking kindly to 0bama causing his precious Berkshire-Hathaway to bleed massive valuation.

Think the Rockefeller family is going to stand by while Standard Oil loses 50% or more of its value?

In a massive economic collapse, although the rich will stay rich, they will suffer very large losses.

smokeywolf

[randyrat]

Nobody mentioned BEESWAX It can be very useful and may be a necessary item for way more than just Boolit lube :)
It is as good as any precious metal investment.

[Defcon-One]

1.) I have a bunch of your Beeswax, Randy! I highly recommend it. Really clean good stuff, but how much do I really need?

2.) Conflict: We will always have conflict. I think it actually grows the economy! I also think that outright global war like they feared in the 1950s & 60s is unlikely.

3.) Natural Disaster: We always have these too! Cash works and price gouging is common. I too have seen it, especially on gas and propane.

4.) Runaway Inflation: This is the big one. Most likely where we are headed and the one place where the precious metals will really protect you finacially. The other stuff (food, guns and ammo) protects your health and security, the Gold and Silver protect your accumulated wealth.

5.) Global Pandemic: We all probably die! So don't sweat it.

I guess that I agree with everyone, be smart and have some extra stuff around, what you think you need to survive for a while, say a year, without any help at all. Skills are always good, for personal benefit, maybe even barter. Then once you have done all that, put 15-20% of your extra cash into gold and silver.

I do not think you'll loose with that strategy in the long run, and it might pay off big if things do get really bad. Like everything else, diversification is always a safer bet and many believe that precious metals is a good part of a diversified strategy.

[bangerjim]

1.) I have a bunch of your Beeswax, Randy! I highly recommend it. Really clean good stuff, but how much do I really need?

2.) Conflict: We will always have conflict. I think it actually grows the economy! I also think that outright global war like they feared in the 1950s & 60s is unlikely.

3.) Natural Disaster: We always have these too! Cash works and price gouging is common. I too have seen it, especially on gas and propane.

4.) Runaway Inflation: This is the big one. Most likely where we are headed and the one place where the precious metals will really protect you finacially. The other stuff (food, guns and ammo) protects your health and security, the Gold and Silver protect your accumulated wealth.

5.) Global Pandemic: We all probably die! So don't sweat it.

I guess that I agree with everyone, be smart and have some extra stuff around, what you think you need to survive for a while, say a year, without any help at all. Skills are always good, for personal benefit, maybe even barter. Then once you have done all that, put 15-20% of your extra cash into gold and silver.

I do not think you'll loose with that strategy in the long run, and it might pay off big if things do get really bad. Like everything else, diversification is always a safer bet and many believe that precious metals is a good part of a diversified strategy.

Your ideas are good, but many reports from different agencies show the average person in America has over $10K of credit card debt, owes more on their house than it is actually worth, and many live hand to mouth paycheck to paycheck (if they EVEN work at all!!!).

What EXTRA cash? Those are the people that will be the ones caught with their pants down (with empty pockets) in an economic crash.

I started my "retirement" long-term planning with my very 1st paycheck from my very 1st full-time job back in 1972. People today that have not planned ahead are finding it is a bit too late.

The key is to have diversified investment and survival plans, and not rely on just one thing (like lead!!!! OMG.). Ask the many people that had their entire retirement plan in ENRON! I only lost about $17K in that mess because I have always had a very diversified investment strategy.

And the standard ruler is 10-15% of your TOTAL worth in precious metals, not just a little extra pocket change.

But plan ahead and invest in/save/hoard the things you feel you will need to survive in case of numerous disasters that could overtake us in the future.


bangerjim

[Defcon-One]

bangerjim:

Yeah, I think we basically agree.

- The ones who are on the DOLE and taking from the taxpayers (all of us) will be the ones who really feel it the most, no matter what the issue is. They'll loose the most, the fastest. Unless they planned well with our money!

- The ones who worked, but did not plan well, will suffer.

1.) Their debt, their fault!

2.) Their underwater house, their fault!

- The ones who worked and planned well, will do the best.

All of that comes with bad choices and bad investments or good choices and good investments. I lost $23K on Tyco while you were taking a beating on Enron! I think that we both paid for that ourselves, sure it was a darn shame, but it was our choice to invest there and ultimately our mistake (Maybe, not our fault?). I mean, nobody bailed me out, I just worked harder after and was more careful!

My point was, put what you can, if you can into precious metals. Anything is better than nothing at all! It beats puting it into cigarettes or booze!

[dtknowles]

............ many reports from different agencies show the average person in America has over $10K of credit card debt, owes more on their house than it is actually worth, and many live hand to mouth paycheck to paycheck (if they EVEN work at all!!!)..............
bangerjim

What agency is reporting that the average person has $10K of credit card debt and is underwater on their house??

Does not seem right. I will do some research myself.

Tim

[dtknowles]

bangerjim:.....................My point was, put what you can, if you can into precious metals. Anything is better than nothing at all! It beats puting it into cigarettes or booze!

Bangerjim was more correct, diversify. It would be stupid to put what I can into precious metals but maybe 10 or 20 percent would be sensible. I did buy an extra bottle of my favorite Gin when there was a report of a scarcity :-)

I have a fear of massing to much precious metals or other commodities as it would make me and them a target and would need to be insured or protected. You hear report of people digging up hordes of hidden gold, that surely outlived their original owners. I wonder if the original owners were killed protecting the location or just could not get to the horde. I don't think I will be burying my gold.

Tim

[bangerjim]

What agency is reporting that the average person has $10K of credit card debt and is underwater on their house??

Does not seem right. I will do some research myself.

Tim


Here are some:

http://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/credit-card-data/average-credit-card-debt-household/


http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/credit-card-industry-facts-personal-debt-statistics-1276.php

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2014/06/11/is-your-credit-card-debt-average/

http://www.statisticbrain.com/credit-card-debt-statistics/

Debt is debt......unless you are a liberal that donated to the Dem machine, then you will get a government bailout!!!!!!!

And there is a push on in DC to fire up the Freddy & Fanny load machine for dead beats just like before!!!!!!! Here we go again.


banger

[dtknowles]

What agency is reporting that the average person has $10K of credit card debt and is underwater on their house??

Does not seem right. I will do some research myself.

Tim

Quick search = The national negative equity rate fell to 21% of all homeowners with a mortgage in the third quarter, down from its Q1 2012 peak of 31.4%, (from Mortgage Professionals of America)

While this is not great it is just over 1 in 5 so that is hardly average. That stat does not include people like me who own there house free and clear. So the real number is even lower.

From Nerd Wallet Finance
The median American household owed $3,300 of consumer debt;
The average American household owed $7,768 of consumer debt;

This indicates half of all households owe less than $3,300 on their credit cards but some people have huge credit card debt that is driving up the average but the average is still a lot less than $10,000.
There is lots of data out there and I check multiple sources and some were really deceiving, when posting here please check your facts, not to say your conclusion are flawed as they aren't and are still supported by the revised data.

Another thing to note, there may be a lot of people like myself that have reimbursable business expenses on their personal credit card so my month to month balance is in the $5,000 dollar range but gets paid off each month.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Here are some:

http://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/credit-card-data/average-credit-card-debt-household/


http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/credit-card-industry-facts-personal-debt-statistics-1276.php

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2014/06/11/is-your-credit-card-debt-average/

http://www.statisticbrain.com/credit-card-debt-statistics/

Debt is debt......unless you are a liberal that donated to the Dem machine, then you will get a government bailout!!!!!!!

And there is a push on in DC to fire up the Freddy & Fanny load machine for dead beats just like before!!!!!!! Here we go again.


banger.

One of the most deceiving things that are in all those links is they mostly talk about the money owed by people carrying debt. There are many people who do not owe a penny and when you include them it brings the numbers down a bunch.

Tim

[Defcon-One]

Bangerjim was more correct, diversify. It would be stupid to put what I can into precious metals but maybe 10 or 20 percent would be sensible. I did buy an extra bottle of my favorite Gin when there was a report of a scarcity :-) Tim


How can he be MORE correct when I said it first and I agreed with him when he said it? (Read my post #47):


...precious metals is a good part of a diversified strategy.

Also, how can you put 10-20% into precious metals if you spend 95% on everything else that you need to live. That is what "What You Can" means, isn't it?

I think the key point he was making is that many have too much debt to buy Gold or Silver at all. They simply can't afford it. So, if you have debt, pay for what you absolutely need, then pay-off or pay down the debt, then if there is any money left, buy "What You Can" in Gold and Silver. If and only if you want to!

[dtknowles]

Defcon, sorry I lost track of who said what. You can have credit for recommending Diversifying.

My 10 or 20% was meant as a fraction of net worth or disposable income. I misunderstood thinking that you were recommending putting all ones disposable income (what you can) into precious metals.

Tim

[bangerjim]

I think we've beat this rented mule to death!

Buy what you want - lead, gold, silver, booze, unicorn milk, etc. Invest whatever you can in stocks, bonds, gold, etc to diversify your holdings.

"Do not put all your eggs in one basket" is the best take-away from all this. Remember, eggs have a short shelf life. Gold does not!

banger

[el34]

It is both heart-warming and a source of optimism to see how many folks understand the nature and purpose of central banks, the story of the petrodollar and the black swan it is incubating, the difference between currency and money, the predictability of human nature in any scenario, recognition of what has intrinsic value and purchasing power, and the wisdom to grasp the seriousness of it all.

Or maybe all it took to get me all jiggly was a half dozen like-minded forum folks!

[johnho]

I agree with smokeywolf on his first post. I read an article from a fellow from Croatia (i think that's where he was from) and when their country collapsed he said all the precious metals and things meant nothing. You can't eat them or do anything with them to survive. His highest recommendation actually was ammunition and guns. Those items were really able to be bartered. Self defense is the most important thing to worry about at those times. But I have accumulated a lot of one ounce silver coins as precious metals will be the next important when things begin to return to normal. That is really the only common currency that has survived all mankind. Dollars will be worthless to everyone. Good for making a fire.

[truckerdave397]

One more thing on buying silver or gold, watch out for counterfeit.

[MaryB]

My preference for silver is 1964 and older US dimes and quarters. 90% silver most people know what they are... American Silver Eagles are okay if bought from a reputable source(ebay is iffy), same for Canadian Maple Leafs.

[Deliverator]

The purpose of precious metals is to reduce the physical size and weight of your bartering. If the economy collapses there will be riots and craziness for a while. Then things will calm down and communities will develop and trade will begin again. Whether that is with your neighbor to whom you can trade a large bulky item, or to the next town over where walking over a 55 gallon drum of diesel fuel is probably not a feasible or intelligent thing to do. At some point a barter system will be set up and an item will be used as the basic unit of currency. There has been currency for a very very very long time. Food spoils, fuel goes to varnish, animals die, machinery breaks down. Gold and Silver will sit in your pocket for a very very very long time.

I would strongly recommend getting in a position to take care of yourself in the event SHTF before investing anything into precious metals. Precious metal values will plummet to nothing for a while as people are just trying to survive. Then once things settle down an economy will spring from the rubble and precious metals will be the primary currency.