for the roundball shooters.

[johnson1942]

today i got out my side lock .448 1/28 twist muzzle loader to shoot my 6 inch circle gong at 35 yards. had severl 335 paperpatch bullets made up as it is a tack driver with these. they are sized to .338 with the paper on them. well as i always do i like to fire a fouling shot even with the 209 powder i use, andit has a shot gun primer nipple. i have a bunch of .445 swaged round ball i got from track of the wolf for another gun. i put 80 grains 209 powder down with a 60 thousands tight poly wad over it an carefully tapped the rounball into the barrel with out a patch. was tight but went down easy. in steasd of just shooting it off into the field i aimed at the 6 inch circle gone and hit it dead center. i was very surprised and did it several times in a row. their was not leading in the barrel and it was very accurate. i have a old discarded wheel barrel at about 25 yards out so i picked a spot on it and hit it in the exact spot i was shooting at. i done this about 12 time with no leading at all and one was just as accurate as another. so why do we use a patch if this works so good? i can see the tight poly wad protecting the roundball but you would think the ball would strip out. it has to be going at leaste 1700 ft. per sec. when we have our local shoot in a week or so im going to take that gun and shoot round ball at the 25 yard target as they dont accept a bullet. wow i still cant believe it. now i can shoot even cheaper at my gongs. also i set up some water filled milk jugs both gallon size and 1/2 gallon size and those roundballs blew them all apart at 30 yards dead center. any body else try roundballs with out patches?

[curator]

"Bare-ball" loads have been shooting accurately since about 1650 in the German Jager rifle. Unfortunately the patch & ball crowd have never understood. The advantage with a patch is using an undersize round ball. I often shoot .515 round balls (instead of .490) in my .50 caliber rifles without a patch since they are over groove diameter of the barrel in which I am shooting them. I do use a felt or card wad between powder and ball in most cases and wipe the bore with a water-damp patch between shots for best accuracy. With slow twist these are as accurate as patched balls or maybe even better. Bore leading is non-existent using real black powder. Try it, you'll like it!

[johnson1942]

thank you for your reply, i did find out they are fast and accurate in my fast twist and im going to order some over size balls and try them in my .45/1/60 twist. i think the over powder wad helps and maybe a felt wad would be better than the poly wad i used. i like to keep things simple and this does it with out looseing accracy and ft. per sec. im also going to try some oversize balls in my 1/28 .50 cal. bet it shoots great. also years ago a rifle barrel maker told me he made two barrels for a guy in a large cal that was real slow twist and had 40 lands and grooves only barely 2 thousands deep. i believe he said he shot bare balls also but i put it aside in my head. now it makes sense as he did say the guy told him the barrels shot well and were very accurate. im glad im still learning things.

[dondiego]

Could you give a little more info on the "60 thousands tight poly wad"? Did you make or buy these? Is this just a round plastic wad? How thick?

[johnson1942]

i used to buy them from buffalo arms for my 45/70. they come in 30 thousands thick and 60 thousands thick. i since have bought from buffalo arms their high end wad cutter that mounts on a loading press. i then buy 60 thousands thick sheets from them and can cut hundreds in a 1/2 hour. as i have .50 cals also i cut wads for them also. i bet a felt wad cut on my cutter would work also. i was amazed that they shot so perfect and never leaded. today im going to run some through my new chronograph and see what it says. with a regular .45 roundball barrel one would use a .458 or .457 roundball with a 45/70 poly wad. my .45 i tried them in is really a .44 cal so i use .445 round balls. i wasnt holding back on the powder either and inspite of being a 1/28 twist and going fast the bare ball preformed i think better than a patched one. now it is both a deer gun with the 335 paperpath bullets and a small critter gun with the roundballs shot bare. they both shoot in the same place so the sights dont have to be messed with.

[dondiego]

Thanks for that info. Is there any chance for the ball to become unseated from the powder/wad or is it a tight fit? Is the ball engraved at loading?

[johnson1942]

the ball pretty much goes to the bottom of the grooves and is a snug fit. once you get it started with a starter it goes down easy but doesnt move off of the powder. ingraves 100 percent. going out the door now to see what the chronograph says with it.

[johnson1942]

with 80 grains by volume and a 60 thousands thick poly wad and a .445 swaged round ball it went through the chronograph at 1750 ft per sec. consistantly. i worked up to 110 grains by volume with a 335 paperpatched bullet and it went 1970 ft. per sec. the powder was 209 blackhorn powder. the barrel is 24 and 3/4 inches long. that gun has got 6 deer with a cast boolit and real black. now this winter im going to try it with 209 powder and a 335 pp bullet. its a shooter

[Hanshi]

Soft round ball certainly will swage down in a slow rifled barrel and shoot with accuracy. Patching ball was invented in Europe and perfected here along with the longrifle. I shoot only prb in my rifles because it keeps the bore clean for dozens of shots. The accuracy ability of a bare ball is easily demonstrated in a good smoothbore. In my fowler a bare ball gives saucer size or only slightly larger groups at 50 plus yards. A couple years back I made a pretty nice running shot on a large doe with my flint fowler. Prb does better in my gun but bare ball comes very close to it.

[johnson1942]

with all the things ive learned in the last week i think my next gun will be a custom built by me that is a true dual purpose gun. round ball and paperpatch. i used to think pp wouldnt shoot in 5 thousands deep grooves but it does and does very well and so does a round ball. my next gun may be a .50 that is 6 thousands deep narrow lands about a 1/32 twist. the bore at bottom of grooves about .50 and top of lands about 6 thousands less. this will shoot a bare .50 round ball or a 500 grain pp bullet.i also thought faster twist wouldnt shoot roundballs but they do. i even remember reading reprinted books from the 1800/s that said faster twist shot round balls well. they were right. i think a dual purpose .50 would fill all needs. im glad im still learning and able to have dreams for the future. its better than being a kid again.

[Rattus58]

"Bare-ball" loads have been shooting accurately since about 1650 in the German Jager rifle. Unfortunately the patch & ball crowd have never understood. The advantage with a patch is using an undersize round ball. I often shoot .515 round balls (instead of .490) in my .50 caliber rifles without a patch since they are over groove diameter of the barrel in which I am shooting them. I do use a felt or card wad between powder and ball in most cases and wipe the bore with a water-damp patch between shots for best accuracy. With slow twist these are as accurate as patched balls or maybe even better. Bore leading is non-existent using real black powder. Try it, you'll like it!

You seem to be dismissing the cap and ball revolver shooters.... [smilie=s:

[Rattus58]

with all the things ive learned in the last week i think my next gun will be a custom built by me that is a true dual purpose gun. round ball and paperpatch. i used to think pp wouldnt shoot in 5 thousands deep grooves but it does and does very well and so does a round ball. my next gun may be a .50 that is 6 thousands deep narrow lands about a 1/32 twist. the bore at bottom of grooves about .50 and top of lands about 6 thousands less. this will shoot a bare .50 round ball or a 500 grain pp bullet.i also thought faster twist wouldnt shoot roundballs but they do. i even remember reading reprinted books from the 1800/s that said faster twist shot round balls well. they were right. i think a dual purpose .50 would fill all needs. i'm glad i'm still learning and able to have dreams for the future. its better than being a kid again.At this point I'd querry you on the choice of the 50. For the ball, I'm thinking it might be an advantage at distance. But for long distance shooting of a conical, why the 50 as opposed to the 40 or 45? Ballistically I'm thinking either would be superior, grain per grain over the 50.

[bhuch5]

OK I'll bite. After reading this post I tried bare ball in my .54 rifles. I am using a .562 pure lead roundball lubed with Alox. My barrel diameters are -
#1. Sharon 54 cal .540 land .554 groove twist 1x66
#2. Cabelas 54 cal .538 land .552 groove twist 1x48
#3. Renegade 54 (freshened).540 land .558 groove twist 1x48

Takes about 3 hits on my short starter to engrave rifling then fairly easy to seat with ramrod. I have experimented with powder charges between 80 to 110 grs of Goex 2fg and 3fg and use a lubed felt wad over the powder. Primarily using my .54 underhammer with slow twist Sharon barrel (.554 groove) .


What I learned today is that I can group the first 2 shots into 2" at 100 yds from bench. Without wiping the next shots will be 5" high and right. Lots of powder fouling. My best group was with 110 grs 3fg. Next time out I will try wiping after every shot (hate it when you start to see a pattern and its time to go home).


I also learned that I need to sight thru the bottom part of my bi-focals or I cannot group anything anywhere. Front sight gets too fuzzy and shots go wild. Part of why I had hard time discerning any patterns to my shooting problems. Ended up with a roll of patch material under the nose-bridge of my glasses.


Can't wait to try again next time. FYI- I ran copper chore girl on a jag and came up with ZERO leading.
Good shooting-Bruce H

[BrassMagnet]

OK I'll bite. After reading this post I tried bare ball in my .54 rifles. I am using a .562 pure lead roundball lubed with Alox. My barrel groove diameters are .546 .544 and .542. Takes about 3 hits on my short starter to engrave rifling then fairly easy to seat with ramrod. I have experimented with powder charges between 80 to 110 grs of Goex 2fg and 3fg and use a lubed felt wad over the powder. Primarily using my .54 underhammer with slow twist Sharon barrel (.546 groove) .


What I learned today is that I can group the first 2 shots into 2" at 100 yds from bench. Without wiping the next shots will be 5" high and right. Lots of powder fouling. My best group was with 110 grs 3fg. Next time out I will try wiping after every shot (hate it when you start to see a pattern and its time to go home).


I also learned that I need to sight thru the bottom part of my bi-focals or I cannot group anything anywhere. Front sight gets too fuzzy and shots go wild. Part of why I had hard time discerning any patterns to my shooting problems. Ended up with a roll of patch material under the nose-bridge of my glasses.


Can't wait to try again next time. FYI- I ran copper chore girl on a jag and came up with ZERO leading.
Good shooting-Bruce H

Take your rifle to your optometrist and have him add magnification to your normal prescription in your shooting eye until the front sight is clear. Then shoot with one eye open. It really works and you can still see distance with both eyes open and well enough to shoot very well at 200 - 300 yards with one eye closed. At longer ranges you can shoot a limited number of shots before the eyes tire too much.

[johnson1942]

im glad i posted my findings as it just adds to whats available to shoot. the gun it works in for me will continue to hunt deer with paperpatch how ever when i want to hunt rabbits with it in the creek bottoms i will do the bare roundball as it hits in the same place as the paperpatch does with out adjusting the sights. it may not work in every gun but it sure does in mine.

[Maven]

Roger, I was able to reduce .530" RB's to .518" in my LAM I (Buckshot made the H & I die) yesterday. I pushed one through the Bighorn's bbl., muzzle -> breech, and got a .5115" x .504" elongated ball as a result (shaved a small ring of lead at the muzzle). Hope to test these with some sort of OP wad (I'm leaning toward greased felt) next week.

[AlaskanGuy]

You know roger, there is a fellow in swap and sell that is selling Round Ball molds...... No need, my friend, to have to BUY round balls when you have everything else needed to do your thing...

:bigsmyl2:

Blessings sir.... And I got your email... :D

[johnson1942]

im glad you got the email, lot of info their. also the greased felt wad would be perfect for that type of bullet. americans can figure out anything and make it work. lets us know how it shoots.

[AlaskanGuy]

Did you see the RB molds in swap and sell????

also, Brass magnet has a bunch of rb molds in "helping hands"..... He is a great guy that might be related to the Infamous George we hear about from time to time in the cast site... :)