Two pots off of one outlet?

[Patrick L]

Continuing with my threads on this new casting cabinet, the final thing I need to do has to do with power supply to the pots.

Is it too much draw to run two pots off of one outlet? As you can see from the first picture, there is an outlet about two feet away from the cabinet. Up till now I plugged my 20 lb pot into it, and the cord for the light/exhaust fan. Now I need to power two pots, and still the light/exhaust fan. I was planning on cutting about 3 feet off of a heavy duty extension cord (like one of the 14 gauge ones) leaving the plug end intact and running the bare end into the cabinet and installing an outlet box right inside. I would plug my pots into that box. Therefore, I would be plugging the power source for the cabinet outlet and the light/exhaust fan into the one wall outlet. Is this kosher? If I went to other outlets I would need extension cords, and besides the outlets in my basement are run in a series anyway, so the power all comes in in the same line.

Here's the cabinet (with only one pot in this photo) showing the wall outlet to the right
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/patrickl_01/Casting%20cabinet/GunStuff004.jpg

And here's my new tandem pot arrangement
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/patrickl_01/Casting%20cabinet/GunStuff027.jpg

I really know nothing about electrical stuff, especially in terms of draw etc. I figure if the circuit breaker doesn't pop everything's fine. Can any of you electrical types give me any guidance?

[pa_guns]

Hi

The simple answer is that if you aren't sure it's safe, don't do it.

Your circuit breakers are likely either 15 or 20 amp units.

Your wall socket may be the only thing on the circuit and it may be one of many things.

The heater on the pot is probably in the 700 to 800 watt range. It *could* be 1000 watts. At 800 watts it will pull about 7 amps off of 120 volts. Two pots will just barely *not* trip a 15 amp breaker. If there is anything else on the circuit you will pull more than the rated load.

There are a lot of very smart people who follow the "if the breaker does not trip, it's ok" theory. I have seen several fires come out of mistakes made this way.

Bob

[kodiak1]

I think you are just looking for aggrivation. If your breaker is at all weak it will trip.
You would be better off to find two plugins that are on seperate breakers and away you go.
My thought Ken.

[pa_guns]

Hi

From the pictures I'm guessing you are set up in the basement. Most breaker boxes are also in the basement. It should not cost a whole lot to put a pair of dedicated 20 amp / 120 volt circuits in to feed the casting operation. Best guess would be $100, but it could be more if things are a little crazy in the basement.

Bob

[PatMarlin]

If you run 12-2 or 12ga wire and a 20amp plug outlet with 20 amp breaker you'll be fine.

If the wire is 14-2 or 14ga wire, and a 15 amp plug outlet, you're under wired. Find the breaker in the panel and see what the wire size is typed on the jacket of the romex.

If it's 14-2 then you can't run the both on that circuit. If it's 12-2, then you can change the breaker and the outlet if they are not 20 amp, and safely run the 2 pots.

[Catshooter]

Actually, the simple answer is that if the breaker doesn't like, it'll trip. No harm, no foul.

Of course that is if everything is ok with your electrical system, from the outlet to the pole. If not, your results may vary.

Helpful, huh?


Cat

[MT Gianni]

A lot may depend on whether both pots are trying to melt at the same time or just maintaining temperature. Maintaing draws less amps than heating. Gianni

[PatMarlin]

I was gonna say contact Cat cause he's a pro.

I see he's already responded with his professional advice... :mrgreen:

[NVScouter]

Hi

The simple answer is that if you aren't sure it's safe, don't do it.

Your circuit breakers are likely either 15 or 20 amp units.

Your wall socket may be the only thing on the circuit and it may be one of many things.

The heater on the pot is probably in the 700 to 800 watt range. It *could* be 1000 watts. At 800 watts it will pull about 7 amps off of 120 volts. Two pots will just barely *not* trip a 15 amp breaker. If there is anything else on the circuit you will pull more than the rated load.

There are a lot of very smart people who follow the "if the breaker does not trip, it's ok" theory. I have seen several fires come out of mistakes made this way.

Bob

Close, try again. But good overall advise.

700 Watts= 5.83333 Amps on 120V or 6.36 Amps on 110V
800 Watts= 6.66666 Amps on 120V or 7.22 Amps on 110V
1000Watts= 8.3333 Amps on 120V or 9.09 Amps on 100V

Depending on the actual incomming power to your come you can easily be pulling too much current for that CIRCUIT. An outlet is just part of the circuit, connected to that same outlet are up to 10 others that can be pulling power too. If the outlet only goes to one breaker you can pull up to the amount of current that outlet is rated to.


If you run 12-2 or 12ga wire and a 20amp plug outlet with 20 amp breaker you'll be fine.

If the wire is 14-2 or 14ga wire, and a 15 amp plug outlet, you're under wired. Find the breaker in the panel and see what the wire size is typed on the jacket of the romex.

If it's 14-2 then you can't run the both on that circuit. If it's 12-2, then you can change the breaker and the outlet if they are not 20 amp, and safely run the 2 pots.

Pat whats up with the 2 wire stuff? A 3 wire system (hot, neurtal, ground) is the Alternating current standard for the USA. Never go below 12GA wire for household current, so 12Ga or numericly lower like 10GA. So use 12-3 for 20A and lower current or 10-3 for up to 50A.


Actually, the simple answer is that if the breaker doesn't like, it'll trip. No harm, no foul.

Of course that is if everything is ok with your electrical system, from the outlet to the pole. If not, your results may vary.

Helpful, huh?

Cat

No way Jose.

Overloading a breaker with current once in a while sure, on a regular basis you are in for it. Breakers are meant to trip about 10 times in 5 years, everytime they trip they get weaker. So if a breaker trips a lot then best case you destroy a $50 breaker, worst case it doesnt trip and you have heat build up in your walls wiring. This could burn your place down.

Do the wiring correctly and dont sweat it in the middle of the night. Power is easy as long as the wiring, outlets, and circuit breakers match the load source.

[PatMarlin]

No offense sparky but 12-2 Romex is 3 wire. Hot (black) Nutral (white) Ground (bare paper wrapped copper wire).

10-3 Romex is 220v. 4 wires there.

Yes you have to take into consideration other items that are on the circuit. Older homes used 14-2 wire all the time for lights and lite drawing appliances.

[PatMarlin]

Also-

Unless you have an old panel like a Zinsco, your breakers aren't gonna be no $50. A newer panel that will take Cutler Hammer/Murray's for instance will be about $5 at home repo.

[NVScouter]

Ok Pat I see your an old timer.

12-2 is an older term for 3 wire usage since the ground was a "given"

Modern places call it like is and 12-3, 10-3 etc, 12-4, 10-4. But like Pat said it will be marked as 12-2 etc. This causes confusion if your talking to a HD contractor or a real electrician.

If you are going to buy breakers buy the good ones. That Home Depot cheap-o stuff doesnt cut it. A good quality breaker is $25-50 a breaker.

Happy Patty?

[PatMarlin]

Soory but I respectfully disagree.

12-2, 14-2, 10-2, is the standard marking for 3 wire Romex used for 110 volt wiring.

12-3, 10-3, and larger etc., is the standard marking for 4 wire Romex used in 220v systems wiring.

Unless markings have changed in the last year or so, that's what they read.

Nothing cheap about the Cutler Hammer typr breakers really. They meet current building code, and they work fine, and are good quality.

[MGySgt]

Modern places call it like is and 12-3, 10-3 etc, 12-4, 10-4......
Happy Patty?

I don't know where you are buying wire, but 12-3 has 4 wires in it. Red, Black, White and ground/bare - light 220 stuff or to alternate receptcals on a wall so that ones side by side are not on the same circuit. The Red and Black are both HOT.

14-3 is normally for 2 way lights switches. Bottom of the stairs/top of the stairs.

Go to home dupot or lowes and look at a container of 12-2 - at the end of it - Black, White, bare.

Patrick L - I would not cut down a 14 gauge extension cord to wirte a box inside of your casting ben. Use 12 gauge, you can buy it at Home depot or lowes and make your cord. 14 gauge is only good for 15 AMPS.

I would not want to run 2 pots off of 14 ga wire - I think that is looking for trouble.

Drew

[Patrick L]

Actually, my family are builders (not me personally, I was just the flunkie laborer during summer vacations) and we built my house. Ultimately, if I have to do something fancy it will cost me nothing. I'll call my brother and he'll come do it.

The outlets in the basement are wired with 12-2 (3 wire grounded) and are all in a line. Well, actually two lines. One is the outlets along the front wall and one is the ones on the back wall, where all of this fun is located. I know there is nothing plugged into the other outlets. The basement is one big workshop, and its not like I'm running the table saw, drill press, casting pots etc. all at once. They are on 20 amp breakers.

Here's what I think I'll do. In the short term, just to test drive this setup some more, I'll run the two pots and only the two pots off of the outlet to the right of the cabinet. There will be nothing else plugged in the entire line all the way to the sub panel box. I will run an extension cord from an outlet on the front of the house (different line.) This will power only the light and the exhaust fan. I will be present the entire time, so I don't feel uneasy about this.

In the long run, I think I will (by that I mean my brother will) run a separate, 12-2 line from the panel, with a 20 amp breaker, and I'll put another outlet right next to the existing one. That one will be for the casting cabinet only, so the cabinet will be powered by its own dedicated line. And when I say long run, I mean I'll have him do this some night this week.

How does that sound?

[PatMarlin]

Sounds to me like all you need to do is make sure the outlet is a 20amp rated, and the breaker on the circuit is a 20amp, and you are good to go.

[Mk42gunner]

Patrick,

The 20 lb Lee has a 700 watt heating element and the 10ponder has a 500 watt element.

I like your idea of a single line for your casting cabinet. Tell your brother that if he does a good enough job you won't steal the wheel wieghts from his truck for at least three weeks.

Robert

[Lloyd Smale]

When i wired my pole barn (its where i do my loading and casting) i wired the whole building wtih #10 wire. It cost more when i did it but ive never regreted it.

[pa_guns]

Sounds to me like all you need to do is make sure the outlet is a 20amp rated, and the breaker on the circuit is a 20amp, and you are good to go.

Hi

The problem there is that you need to know what else is on that same circuit. If you have it lightly loaded otherwise, then yes you are good to go. If the same circuit feeds three bedrooms and the basement, you have some more checking to do.

The temperature controllers on the pots normally are of the on/off variety. They cycle between full on and off to maintain the temperature in the pot. Even at idle they will each pull full current for several seconds at a time. It doesn't take long for things to muck up....

Bob

[exblaster]

This is a very interesting discussion and a subject that most of us don't think about. Perhaps it should be a sticky post some where. I do have a question for you knowledgeable folks. What effect will line loss have on the wiring run? Mabey I should say voltage drop over the run of the circuit .

Exblaster

[pa_guns]

This is a very interesting discussion and a subject that most of us don't think about. Perhaps it should be a sticky post some where. I do have a question for you knowledgeable folks. What effect will line loss have on the wiring run? Mabey I should say voltage drop over the run of the circuit .

Exblaster

Hi

Long line = more drop. Smaller wire (bigger wire gage number) = more drop.

The more power you waste in the wires, the less gets to the pot. Less heat in the pot means the thermostat stays "on" longer. That gives you more heat in the wires. and:

hotter wire = more drop

That gets the thermostat on even longer. The wire now heats up more.

You can guess where this is all going ....

Often it's not the wire that is the main hotspot. The outlet in the wall can be the point that gets the hottest. That is doubly true in an older house where the outlets have been used so much that the plug almost falls out of the outlet from lack of tension.

Outlets are cheap - *please* replace them when they wear out ...

Bob

[PatMarlin]

Here's a chart for every wire size usage and a voltage drop calculator:

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

[PatMarlin]

Now I know why Cat's sayed relatively silent on this thread.. :mrgreen:

[Bret4207]

Yeah. I got the warm fuzzies too...

[PatMarlin]

Lord this is the first time I've been called an "Old Timer"... :groner:

Is this what happens when ya reach 48 and beyond Bret? ....:mrgreen:

[pa_guns]

Here's a chart for every wire size usage and a voltage drop calculator:

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

Hi

Now we can get into explaining skin depth :roll: :roll: :roll:

Bob

[floodgate]

Patrick:

An old-time IBEW wireman friend advised me always to run your lighting off a different circuit than your power equipment; that way, when you lift a breaker, you won't be stumbling around in the dark trying to reset it. If it were me, I'd run TWO 20-amp outlet strips using 12-2W/G (or even 10-2W/G - that's how the stuff I have is marked, to indicate the bare ground lead), one above/ behind the bench and one underneath, off separate 20-amp breakers, PLUS a totally separate 15- or 20-amp circuit for your lights, fans, etc.; and run the pots on the separate lines. Voltage drop is real, but not usually significant over the runs in a normal-sized house; it can be a problem, though, if you run to a separate barn or shed. Since you've got "pros" to help, do it right and be done with it.

Just my two pence.

floodgate

[NVScouter]

Lord this is the first time I've been called an "Old Timer"... :groner:

Is this what happens when ya reach 48 and beyond Bret? ....:mrgreen:

Sorry Pat but "Sparky" begot you Old Timer and Patty :twisted:

Thanks for the chart its a good cheat sheet.

Before you get into wiring be sure to read and understand Ohms law. It is very basic and will save your butt. Like I showed in my first post about current at different incomming voltages, everything varies. Many so called electricians only go by code and have no real understanding of electricity so even if you hire somebody you need to know this stuff.

The chart also shows what Pa-guns was saying here:

Long line = more drop. Smaller wire (bigger wire gage number) = more drop.

He means voltage drop or longer line creates more resistance to the current. But if you measure your voltage at the outlet you dont need this since you have that portion of the equasion. So voltage divided by watts (load) = current (amps).

Now if your planning to wire a shop then that is great planning.


An old-time IBEW wireman friend advised me always to run your lighting off a different circuit than your power equipment; that way, when you lift a breaker, you won't be stumbling around in the dark trying to reset it.

Great point! My air compressor was on the same circuit as my lights when I first moved in and blew the breaker. This was all before I re-did the wiring in the house, but I still got a bruised shin.

[PatMarlin]

Since you've got "pros" to help, do it right and be done with it.

Good advice FG.

Yah- many pros in the kitchen.. :roll:

I think Pat L is gonna get it handled fine... :drinks:

[pa_guns]

Hi

Another way to run it is to pull a piece of 12-3 (ground plus three) and wire it to a pair of 20 amp breakers, one on each side of the 220 line. Less muss and fuss. Twice the power, since you now have two separate 120V 20 amp outlets. If you eventually upgrade to a big pot that *needs* 220, it's a simple conversion to switch things over.

Note to self - make *sure* the color code is correct when you do this ....:mrgreen:

Eventually you *will* run out of power in the house. That gets you into neat things like "honey, don't run the electric dryer while I'm casting boolets.

Bob

[Patrick L]

Thanks for all the replies. I didn't mean for this to turn into a pi$$ing contest.

It amazes me how some people will chime in with half answers that show that they never read the original question from the original post, or at least followups from the original poster. But, that's the internet for you.

I just talked to my brother, and he can't believe these pots would strain the existing line, especially give we know the route of the wire, type of wiring, and know that there is nothing plugged into the outlets along the line. BUT, he said we certainly wouldn't hurt anything by running a dedicated line for the pots, and peace of mind has its own sometimes intangible value. So that's what we're going to do.

Thank you again, this cabinet has turned out to be the cat's meow!

[felix]

The latter entry is my preference. Run 220 to the area of interest with the biggest wire you can get cheap (none that I know of), and make it 10 AWG minimum. Break the single line into mini-circuits only at the plug-in (where used) point. One for 220, two for 110, each separately fused. When a fuse blows, it is right there next to the device which caused the problem. ... felix

[waksupi]

It amazes me how some people will chime in with half answers that show that they never read the original question from the original post, or at least followups from the original poster. But, that's the internet for you.



Patrick, that is just how this board operates. Before a topic is done, you may also know how to rebuild a John Deere tractor!

[Dale53]

When I had my utility barn built with its dedicated casting station, I had my electrician wire two separate circuits for two lead pots. I did a bit of research and am most happy that I did it that way.

Pat L.
Just have your brother run another circuit for the second pot and you will be "good to go".

I have found, over the years, that it is best to hook any heating appliance up to its own circuit.

Safety FIRST!!

Dale53

[redneckdan]

Patrick, that is just how this board operates. Before a topic is done, you may also know how to rebuild a John Deere tractor!


thats why I hang out here. the "anti-tangent nazis" on other boards kinda kill the discussion.


As to two pots on one line...I don't have two pots to try it out with. Though I do think its in realm of reasonable. Milk house heaters draw in the neighbor hood of 1000watts on WFO...just for comparison.

[shooter575]

One other thing on this that does not reflect on Patricks orgional post. Just somthing to be aware of. Breakers as stated earyler are only good for so many overload trips.Sometimes they will not trip at all...[a bad thing] Around here the most common panels found are SquareD and Pushmatic. The latter plain scare me.
In my shop I installed a recycled 150 A fuzed panel.Because a fuze will allways trip when needed.

[mtgrs737]

I figure 100 watts is a little bit less than 1 amp so I figure that a 20 amp circuit less than 100 feet long will do 2000 watts. 20 amp circuit = 12 ga. wire, I have been known to run 10 ga wire as a feeder wire on longer runs then drop down to 12 ga. wire at the first device and continue with it to the end. I also limit the number of devices to 7 or 8 maximun on a circuit which is a little bit more than half of what the code says. I have only one 15 amp 14 ga. wire circuit in my house and it runs the smoke detectors and intercom system (very low amp draw).

You are never sorry that you put in heavy duty wiring in the long run. You might also want to look into the 20 amp outlets as they are heavy duty, but they cost about $4 each. You can tell them by looking at the face of one of the slots as it has a extra slot bisecting the vertical slot. The outlets have better contacts inside and they last longer, I used them in the Kitchen and bathrooms.

[Bret4207]

Lord this is the first time I've been called an "Old Timer"... :groner:

Is this what happens when ya reach 48 and beyond Bret? ....:mrgreen:

I like to think of myself as being in my extremely late 30's....[smilie=1:

[happy7]

I run a piggyback like your but with an RCBS 22 pounder and a Lee 20 on one line plus flouresent lighting. Haven't tripped anything yet, but I have a 20 amp breaker.

[MT Gianni]

Around here the most common panels found are SquareD and Pushmatic. The latter plain scare me.
+2 on pushamatic breakers. The words I have been told is if you turn one off 60-70% of the time it will not reset. Gianni

[454PB]

When I built and wired my reloading/ casting / shop, I really went crazy with circuitry. My loading room has two 20 amp 240 volt circuits, and five separate 120 volt circuits. This was 5 years ago, and copper wiring, panels, and breakers were still relatively cheap. The 20 amp, 120 volt circuit that serves my casting bench will easily run two Lee pots at once. I have a 10 pound and 20 pound, total wattage is 1200, or about 10 amps. I plug them into a 5 outlet power strip, which also has a 15 amp breaker built in. If I did somehow overload that circuit, the power strip breaker will trip before the panel breaker does.

As a side note, I was in Home Depot recently, and the same rolls of 12/2 with ground. cost 4 times what I paid in 2003.