Leading in new Freedom Arms revolver

[ExMachina]

Hi guys,

I've got a brand new Freedom Arms Model 97 (44 special) that seems to have a severe leading problem

When I got the gun I slugged the chamber throats (0.430") and the barrel (0.429"). Also, when I slugged the barrel I did not feel an obvious constriction, so all seemed well. (but then again my perspective might be biased as the constriction I had on my other revolver was quite bad).

Then, I took it out to shoot last week. The ammunition I had were all moderate-to heavy hand loads using non-gas checked Beartooth bullets (250 Keith). Before loading the ammo, I sized all the bullets through a 0.430" die (resulting bullets ended up being just shy of 0.431"). The bullets were lubed with the standard Beartooth blue lube. Most of the velocities were in the 970fps range and the other loadings clocked in around 1200fps so I'm assuming that was hot enough to melt the lube.

However, after just 30 rounds there was a severe leading in the barrel and it has not been easy to remove. The lead was deposited mostly in "splotches" toward the rear-half of the barrel which seems like a tell-tale sign of a constriction at the barrel threads.

Right now, I have pin gauges on order to both double check the cylinder throat dimensions and to check the barrel for constrictions. Is there anything else I should look to in order to correct this problem?

Since this is a new gun, should I be asking Freedom Arms to do anything?

Thanks for any help/advice

[Tatume]

My opinion, don't do anything to your FA revolver until you have talked to the folks at Freedom Arms (307-883-2468). They will honor their warranty, but they are very sensitive about people working on their guns. You should avoid talking about handloaded ammunition too.

[mikeym1a]

Since this is a new firearm, and since the manufacturer is sensitive about handloaded boolits, perhaps you should buy some factory jacketed bullets and run through it, followed by factory lead bullet rounds. Then you will have something other than your handloaded ammo to talk about. Does this make sense? I hope so. mikey

[ExMachina]

I'm going to phone FA later in the week. Do they really not expect their customers to shoot handloads?

[AbitNutz]

Here's a reply from F/A I got when I bought my Model 83 in 454 Casull. I had heard rumors and reports about cast bullet problems with F/A revolvers. Fortunately, I never experienced these issues....but here is their view in 2009. They're receptive to questions and problems you're having.
Cheers

Through the years we have shot a lot of cast bullets and our customers have
also. The results are usually dependent on what bullet and load are used.

First, if you are planning on shooting a lighter load, why would you want
your bullets so hard? Cast a bullet in the bhn low teens and you should
have better success. Even the heavy loads should only be in the high teens
low twenties bhn. (I had cast some pure linotype and water dropped them. They were hard as nails.)

One problem we see with cast bullets is they aren't sized properly. For a
454 they need to be .452 diameter. This allows a slip fit of the bullet
into the cylinder throat. If a person is saying their round won't chamber,
it is generally due to improper sizing of the bullet. Hard cast bullets
typically spring back some when sizing so a sizing die of .4515 may be
required to obtain .452.

Bullet hardness and diameter are two of the most common problems we see with
cast bullets in FA revolvers. It doesn't matter if a person is using cast
bullets or jacketed bullets, if the component is wrong for the intended load
then it won't group.

Thanks for your interest.

Freedom Arms, Inc.

['74 sharps]

The hardness of the bullet you're using, is, according to their website, BHN 21, which is more than double what I shoot in my Colt SAA which has never leaded with a soft alloy.

[ExMachina]

The hardness of the bullet you're using, is, according to their website, BHN 21, which is more than double what I shoot in my Colt SAA which has never leaded with a soft alloy.

I've used these same bullets in the same loadings in a Ruger with no leading (those were sized to 0.432" for that gun's throats).

AbitNutz, thanks for the info--that's the kind of customer support from FA I was hoping to hear about.

[44man]

I shoot nothing but water cooled WW metal from all of my revolvers, even up to 1630 fps. Ruger and BFR's. Zero leading and my boolits run 20 to 22 BHN. I also shoot 50-50 from the 45-70 BFR at over 1600 fps with no leading so you might try a softer boolit to see.
I see no reason for your leading with boolits the right size. But it could be powder burn rate.
No reason a Freedom should lead up, I can't blame the gun. We shoot a PB from a Freedom .454 at max pressure with no leading and extreme accuracy.
Shooting a PB from my 45-70 using 4759 leaves the bore clean but I got severe leading with 5744 and there is no explaining it since it is slower then 4759.
Sometimes we just shake our heads!
I have never been able to prove a hard boolit will lead a gun but have changed my mind about powder affects.
It sure sounds like fast powder peak skid. Have you tried 2400?

[ExMachina]

I shoot nothing but water cooled WW metal from all of my revolvers, even up to 1630 fps. Ruger and BFR's. Zero leading and my boolits run 20 to 22 BHN. I also shoot 50-50 from the 45-70 BFR at over 1600 fps with no leading so you might try a softer boolit to see.
I see no reason for your leading with boolits the right size. But it could be powder burn rate.
No reason a Freedom should lead up, I can't blame the gun. We shoot a PB from a Freedom .454 at max pressure with no leading and extreme accuracy.
Shooting a PB from my 45-70 using 4759 leaves the bore clean but I got severe leading with 5744 and there is no explaining it since it is slower then 4759.
Sometimes we just shake our heads!
I have never been able to prove a hard boolit will lead a gun but have changed my mind about powder affects.
It sure sounds like fast powder peak skid. Have you tried 2400?

Yes. The 1200fps loads were the "Keith" load. The 970fps was a "Pseudo-Skeeter" load using W231. The chrono results were also showing very low shot-to-shot standard deviations (around 10 fps per 5 shot string) so I can at least vouch for every shot doing what it was supposed to.

I need to go out again and test if one of the two loads is maybe leading worse than the other.

The only "gun-related" issue I suspect is that if I have a 0.002" constriction in the barrel (for example) then the 0.430" throats may actually be too small for the bore (assuming my 0.429" slug measured the constriction and not the true bore)

[ExMachina]

Just got off the phone with Freedom Arms (what a great bunch of people!)

The suggestions for me were two-fold:

1) Try only the 1200fps load with the Beatooth Bullets (the 970 fps load might be too light for proper obturation)

2) The shoulders going into the 0.430" chamber throats might be shaving off lead from the 0.431" bullet and then the shaved lead is what's coating the barrel (they say this usually shows up as splotches in the real half of the barrel)--solution is to size down the bullets a little more an maybe (if necessary) send the cylinder in to have the shoulders chamfered more.

So back to experimenting!

[44man]

I doubt a restriction in a freedom. Everyone knows my feelings about the gun but not important here. They can be amazing. I suspect the use of 231 reaching that velocity.
When you slug a barrel you look for groove size, NOT BORE. Pin gauges do NOT WORK IN BARRELS.
You did right by slugging but nobody can tell me you can "feel" a restriction because if done right the slug is a bitch to move. I use two measurements to get readings, one near the muzzle and removed, then one all the way through.
PLEASE, do not look for small SD's as they mean nothing at all. leave the chrono home. It will not make a gun shoot.
Your .430" should work, assuming your groove is .429". Making the boolit larger then the throats is a step to more failure. So does trying to make a boolit expand after a restriction.
I think the 231 is smacking the boolit with peak too soon and the boolit is skidding. Skid opens gas channels alongside the boolit. Back 231 way down or use a slower powder. Never try to reach full velocity by adding more fast powders.
Hard lead does NOT cause leading, it is always something else.
I shoot PB HARD boolits from my large calibers just short of brass sticking for years. But I use a slower powder, mostly 296.
Unique and 231 in the .44 mag is around 7 gr. Should be less in the special. Looking at 4 to 5 gr.

[ExMachina]

Pin gauges do NOT WORK IN BARRELS.

Pin gauges can be uses to measure bore diameter and to check for constrictions (http://www.gunblast.com/FerminGarza-Firelapping.htm). It's probalby the most sensitive way to check but, like you, I doubt there's a constriction.

I'll keep your skidding advice in mind. Thanks.

[44man]

Gun writers do not know much today, only the old timers like Elmer and Ken Waters did the work. Work in gun rags today is to sell products. Notice after a writer says something, the next full page is an ad. The years away from common sense started long ago because of profit.
Even Elmer got upset with a change in a grease groove because he needed lube after boolit slump. Just why did he complain with a GG change?
Then understand a Keith might not start straight in the forcing cone, shoulder wiped off so you have a boolit not a full seal in the bore. Boolit out of line and a tight cylinder makes it worse. You feel real good when the cylinder is so tight you can't move it but revolvers do not shoot that way.
Even a super tight belt Mountain Pin can make you wish you would have left the damned Ruger pin in.

[44man]

Bore is not the same as groove. Groove is what you want to measure. Bore can be smaller with no harm but seal is groove. Constriction did happen where both dimensions were affected but look at the SRH where glue is used instead of tight threads. Most accurate gun ever.
I do not think Freedom has a constriction. None that I measured anyway.
I still think it is the powder. stuff your gun with 2400 and I bet it gets better.