Anti-flinch training for revolvers

[DrCaveman]

Im probably way late to school on this one, my dad and grampa should have driven it home 20 years ago...but that didnt happen, and here i am

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Noticed a few outings back that my revolver shooting wasnt up to par. Meaning, i could shoot maybe 4" groups at 15 yards. This involved shooting 38 spl (from 357 mag gun), 45 colt (from pietta new frontier saa clone), 460 magnum (s&w 460V), and 22lr (heritage rough rider). I try not to cheat, and made sure that each group was indeed a full cylinder's worth

Did a few tests on myself with some 'russian roulette' cylinders, and noticed, YEAH, i had a pretty bad flinch. It's probably because of shooting the 460 mag before i was truly ready, but that is in the past and my intent now is to overcome it

Since then, ive warmed up each session with about 50-75 rounds of 22lr, with no tomfoolery, just loaded cylinders. My thinking is that the grip control, trigger control, breath control, and sight alignment were good exercise and the utter lack of recoil/blast should train me to 'expect nothing'

I have been proceeding to shoot a cylinder full of light 45 colt loads, to generate some empties. Accuracy for that cylinder is generally ok at best. THEN, i pull one empty and load it with a hot one. I then shoot that cylinder until i find the hot one. Do the half cock between each shot, and then spin the cylinder roulette style

This has been TELLING to say the least. I found it a very beneficial mental exercise to spend about 45 minutes shooting a grand total of about 10 rounds. At the start, i found myself jerking and bobbing like crazy. Once i had fired 3-4 consecutive empties, my mind and muscles relaxed and the actual live round surprised the hell out of me! The gun had never rocked so far back in recoil! Guess what, the shot hit 1" left of my exact point of aim

Jump forward 20 minutes, and i had a 4 shot cloverleaf. Lots of empty fires during that time

Did the same with my ruger gp100, a little different because the cylinder has to swing out so i could potentially cheat. Nonetheless, i got some tiny clovers with the 5gr unique/158 gr loads that were better than ever before.

Tried it with the 460 mag, and once again, pushed and jerked like crazy. Mental, yes. That one was definitely the toughest to overcome, and ill admit that im not there yet. Still, i got better groups than usual.

So...i switched back to the gp100, shooting some hot loads with the 358429 boolit. Did the routine with 5 deads and a live one...by far the best groups ever! I hit cloverleafs at 20-25 yds.

I guess the 460 shooting was my 'donut' in baseball terms. Im tempted next time to start with a few rounds of 460, and watch my other guns shoot one-hole groups

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A lot of my point here is that the boolits, lubes, and loads are doing JUST FINE. (thanks largely to the info ive gotten from this site). I am the weak link, and now the goal is to minimize my influence on the crappy shots.

Any of you super-seasoned shooters have any more drills/routines you would recommend for revolver flinch training? I cant believe im the only one who has gone through this problem, and come out of it successfully (in the near future...)

[35 Whelen]

Good you got this figured out. If it were me, I'd put the 460 aside until I'd mastered everything else.

I recently finished working over a NM Vaquero 45 Colt and have been shooting it a lot. This evening I shot some 285 gr. SWCHP's @ 1060 fps and recoil is all there out of the 39 oz. revolver. I shoot from a sitting position at 50 yds. and find it takes an incredible amount of concentration to focus on the front sight and the trigger. It's taken lots of time, powder and lead to get to this point, but the reward is fist-sized groups!

So hang in there! It'll just get better from here!

35W

[Le Loup Solitaire]

You are not a weak link and certainly not the first or only one who ever had a flinch issue. It can be overcome, sometimes easily-sometimes not. but it takes practice and concentration. First idea is to stay away from the big calibers and the hot rod loads. Work with 22 cal or medium stuff like 38 special etc. Another suggestion would be the so-called "Swiss loading" which is a mixture of regular loads and some not loaded so you don't anticipate the live ones (after you spin the cylinder before closing it). Concentrate on not knowing when the round will let off. If you know when it goes...then that is usually not a good shot. It will take a lot of practice to undo the habit and replace it with the proper one. It may take a lot of time (and cussing) but will be worth it. I'm not exactly a super seasoned shooter, but I stared at the bottom once and made a respectable mark so I know the drill. There will be good days and bad ones, but the bad ones will diminish over time and the good ones will prevail. Patience and practice-- so stay with it and you will succeed. LLS

[Artful]

Mental training for large bore handguns can be very fun - at one point when I switched from 357 to 44 magnum for sillywet shooting back in the 70's I got a flinch that wouldn't let me pull the trigger at all. Down load the 460 and shoot some until your getting good groups and slowly add a little more powder to each batch (I used to do 500 rounds in a batch) until your back to full power.

[JHeath]

This has been TELLING to say the least. I found it a very beneficial mental exercise to spend about 45 minutes shooting a grand total of about 10 rounds. At the start, i found myself jerking and bobbing like crazy. Once i had fired 3-4 consecutive empties, my mind and muscles relaxed and the actual live round surprised the hell out of me! The gun had never rocked so far back in recoil! Guess what, the shot hit 1" left of my exact point of aim

)

You might get something out of reading the little book, "Zen And The Art Of Archery" by Eugen Herrigel.

[Lefty Red]

Good you got this figured out. If it were me, I'd put the 460 aside until I'd mastered everything else.
35W

Yep, no need to bring out the 460 til deer season. :)
Jerry

[Petrol & Powder]

You can do the same drill with a semi-auto and practice malfunction drills at the same time. Get someone else to load a magazine for you and include some dummy rounds (empty casing with no primer, no powder and a bullet or some of the orange plastic training rounds) in the mag. Three dummy rounds in a high capacity mag and 1 in a single stack works well. Don't put the dummy rounds near the top of the mag where you can see them or load them consecutively. If you gun has a firing pin that can't tolerate dry fire, use a spent primer and mark the dummy rounds so that you know they weren't just duds.

[StrawHat]

Dry firing will also help. No need for anything except a blank wall and an empty revolver. Align the sights and squeeze through. If the sights move, you will see it happen. Concentrate on a smooth squeeze and keeping the sights aligned.

[44MAG#1]

You first have ask yourself why you flinch? If you cant answer that then you will have great difficulty in preventing it. Dry firing has nothing to do with flinching and it is worthless to think you can overcome flinching due to recoil when not experiencing recoil. That is plain silly. When you know the gun isn't going to go off when the hammer falls anyone with any sense will not flinch. Its when you know it is going off and generates recoil is when you flinch. Ask yourself the question why do I flinch and then you can work on the problem but not until you know the answer.

[telebasher]

Years ago, when we were practicing for the long range silhouette match my buddy and I would load each other's 44. We never loaded all chambers and sometimes only used used only one or two live rounds. This really forced you to concentrate and follow through. After several practice sessions like this we eliminated the dreaded flinching and actually became much better pistol shots. I highly recommend this method as it works. We started doing this with just a couple of cylinder reloads and worked up to doing all our practicing this way. It builds your mental game. A full silhouette match is forty rounds and that takes a lot of mental stamina.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I had at least a dozen "NEW" pistol shooters want me to teach them to shoot their .44 mags without their ever shooting any sort of handgun before! I`ve had experienced shooters want me to help them with their shooting slumps. I recommend to go back to a .22 or .38 WC load or some other light recoiling pistol and graduate up from there. A sure way I`ve found to see your flinch is let someone else load your pistol for you omitting a round or two in the cylinder with empties. Then have them load your pistol for you every time at a range session doing this same one or more empties loaded routine. Seems to make the firing of the cartridge being a surprise and the concentrating on the sight picture a better way of beating a flinch for me as a former teacher at a gun club.Robert

[littlejack]

Every time I shoot my handguns, I have to keep telling myself, "concentrate on the front sight" "squeeze the trigger slowly"
It works wonders for me.
I'm not the fastest rabbit in the pack, but I can hit the target.
Regards
Jack

[Djones]

I had a similar experience when going from 357 mag to 44 mag. I told a buddy of mine who shoots some kind of extra fancy and expensive pistol shooting (9mm hot rod with red dot and compensator etc). He told me try strengthening my grip strength. He gave me some of the wire spring with handle grip strengtheners.... well the rest is history. After about three months of working on my grip strength and working up through the different levels of spring strength, my flinch went away.

Then I started getting psoriasis and my ring finger nails are starting to become very loose and tender. My grip has had to change drastically to keep from ripping my right hand ring finger nail off! Needless to say I haven't figured that out yet. I'm contiplating going back to the 357 mag for hunting until my nail falls completely off or I toughen up and can take the pain!

Good luck buddy,

David

[tazman]

I also have the flinch. I like a number of the ideas/cures that have been posted here and will try some of them.
I know what caused my flinch. An early Ruger single action in 44mag got me because the stock grip is far too loose in my hand. When the pistol recoiled, the trigger guard peeled skin off my trigger finger and the hammer spur drew blood from the top of my hand/thumb. I worked with 44 mags after that but never really recovered from the bite of that first one.

[DrCaveman]

Alrighty, thanks for all the replies and encouraging words!

I like the Zen book suggestion. Im sure that my problem is mental in origin and therefore my brain must play a part in the recovery

Ive been trying the technique mentioned by so many, the loading of surprise dummy rounds in a cylinder, and it is the best training ive found so far. Yes, lots of cussing and a feeling that those damn jays and crows are mocking me from the trees. But i am seeing a bit of improvement. Ill keep at it. Maybe bringing along an audience would force me to perform under pressure, but every time i bring out a buddy, it's more of a plinking/blasting session. Not really bonafide practice

Hand strength improvement is a great idea. While i wouldnt say my hands are weak (i work with them most of the day, carrying, chopping, drilling, squeezing), they can ALWAYS get stronger. Hopefully until the day i die...

The question thats been bugging me is 44mag#1's

Why am i flinching?

Ive noticed that the flinch *usually* tends to involve a push with my palm down and left, bringing the barrel upward, and usually right. I saw my right arm tense up right at the elbow. Im trying to employ a strong wrist/hand grip, and think i am succeeding...there appears to be no extra 'squeeze' happening at the moment of trigger break. But my arms, which i was trying so hard to keep relaxed, like to tense up in anticipation of the shot

Im thinking that it is some sort of subconscious 'control' issue i have, where i want to tell that damn gun where it's gonna be, not the other way around. Maybe i can credit mel gibson and clint eastwood for my expectation that multiple shots should be able to be fired without losing sight alignment

I never had any terrible recoil-related events...no cuts or tears, no bruises to speak of, never clocked myself in the forehead with a reeling single action. So im not sure why my brain is being such a pansy here...

Probably, shooting more than once every two weeks would help. Guess i gotta keep saving for that acreage in the woods...man, the lottery would sure speed things up...

Thanks again. All ideas welcome!

[Scharfschuetze]

Humans have a natural aversion to shock (recoil) and loud noise (report). Both together or separably can cause one to flinch.

As a department FTO, I often had to load ball and dummy with officers who failed to qualify during their remedial training. Once they understood that it was them and not their service weapon that was causing the miss, it was easier to correct the problem. Most men will not admit to flinching until it is proven to them. Kudos to the OP!

Having seen the .357 and 9mm perform poorly in the real world, I helped write the department firearms policy to allow for larger calibre weapons. Of course the officer would have to qualify with the new weapon before using it on the street and some of the officers, no matter how bad they wanted to, just couldn't get over flinching and thus could not qualify with the larger calibres. Whether it was due to the increased recoil or report I can't say. Personal strength or size didn't have anything to do with it. It was all upstairs in the brain housing group.

As noted above, dry firing is a very valuable tool for practice. Learning to keep the weapon steady and un-moving during the act of firing is instrumental in shooting accurately. For double action revolvers, DAO only semi-autos or DA first shot semi-autos it's almost a necessity for a consistently accurate shot. Practice good habits and don't reinforce bad ones.

I used to tell my officers or soldiers (different careers) that the gun will move itself when fired. You don't have to move the gun!

[freebullet]

Dry fire the carp outa the gp100 until you dont twitch a muscle. You can do it in your living room and it works wonders. I was struggling with the double action pull years ago and dry fire practice on a 1" square helped solve that.

Make sure you use proper trigger control. I see lots of folks release the trigger to fast. Hold the trigger back a moment after the hammer falls.

[Scharfschuetze]

Make sure you use proper trigger control. I see lots of folks release the trigger to fast. Hold the trigger back a moment after the hammer falls.

Yep. In competitive circles or advanced marksmanship training it's called "Follow Through."

[stu1ritter]

The "flinch" is a normal brain reaction to having a small explosion go off in your hand. Nothing wrong with that. You have to overcome it. When I was shooting on the 1st Cav Div and 2nd Army pistol teams we started each day with half an hour of ball and dummy drill to beat the flinch. Even though we were shooting hundreds of rounds each day, we still did ball and dummy every morning. I have been shooting competitive handgun for 52 years and still flinch. It's very hard for the mind to ignore that explosion, even if it is a .22LR. I have made up unprimed, unpowdered dummy ammo and without looking (they feel exactly the same) take 3 live and 3 dummy in your hand and load either the cylinder or the magazine and proceed. The flinch is very obvious.
You have to work on it all the time.
Stu

[6bg6ga]

I wear ear plugs and ear muffs and my problem went away. I start out my shooting outing by shooting the small calibers first and then progressing to the larger calibers. Anyone can flinch. I have seen it happen with the most experienced shooters.

[44MAG#1]

"The question thats been bugging me is 44mag#1's

Why am i flinching?"
The reason I asked that is to prove to you that it is ALL in the mind. I can understand someone flinching for the first couple shots or may be 4 or 5 with a new hard kicker. But, once you find out that it wont hurt you that should be all you need to know to stop the flinching. The mind is a funny thing. You need to just say man I don't need a death grip. I dont need a locked arm stiff enough to stop a locomotive. I am just shooting a gun that wont hurt me. Why am I approaching this thing like I am going to be tortured? If you will just get into your brain you can handle flinching the very next time out. As someone pointed out no one is perfect and one will flinch or jerk the trigger once in blue moon no mater who they are. Don't let that start the flinchitis start again. Get in that big brain and just try my method before you flush it down the toilet. Forget dry firing just MIND MIND MIND over MATTER. Has that recoil whipped your butt yet? No, but your letting it whip your mind. Just try it.

[Hardcast416taylor]

The things I try to impress on students starting pistol shooting are basic in any type instruction. Stance, sight picture, breathing, squeeze, follow thru with gun recoil, repeat steps. Single action shooting is easiest to train with followed by a semi auto then a double action only. A .22 or something along the lines of a .38 spcl wadcutter load are in my opinion the best calibers to start with or hone your shooting with. There is nothing "He-Manly" with toughing it out by starting with heavy loaded heavy recoiling handguns and wondering why you can`t hit the broad side of a barn!Robert

[44MAG#1]

He-manning it has nothing to do with it. If one intends to shoot heavy recoiling calibers one learns to tolerate the recoil like tolerating other things in life and that is done by setting ones MIND to it and enduring the recoil itself. All this other stuff sounds good and is good but you don't tame the tiger by standing outside the cage and saying nice kitty. The working up to the big calibers is a good idea if one can control their mind to the point they can keep from losing control when he has the big gun in his paw. If the mind cant be controlled then he has not a good chance.

[DrCaveman]

44mag#1

im definitely with you, and FAR from throwing your idea down the toilet

i blamed my mind for this situation, from the get-go, but I also think some physical exercises should help my mind get back under wraps

i do also think that repetition is good for mental training, in that it sets expectations, good or bad. I just gotta make sure to focus on thinking correctly every single shot. No more rapid fire for a while, til I get this tamed

thanks again

[Vulcan Bob]

Yeah flinching can be a real nuisance! The hardest part of the whole thing is admitting you are indeed flinching. As for why we flinch, the subconscious mind works hard to protect us and doesn't like all that ruckus going off right in front of our face. Once we know that we are flinching we have to teach that pesky subconscious mind of ours that all is well and don't sweat it. My last flinchitis attack was brought on by one hundred rounds of full house .44 Mag out of a four inch S&W M-29 in one outing. Lots of work with a .22LR revolver and some .38 Special whilst telling myself, this dose not hurt, don't worry, did the trick.

[DrCaveman]

Yeah flinching can be a real nuisance! The hardest part of the whole thing is admitting you are indeed flinching. As for why we flinch, the subconscious mind works hard to protect us and doesn't like all that ruckus going off right in front of our face. Once we know that we are flinching we have to teach that pesky subconscious mind of ours that all is well and don't sweat it. My last flinchitis attack was brought on by one hundred rounds of full house .44 Mag out of a four inch S&W M-29 in one outing. Lots of work with a .22LR revolver and some .38 Special whilst telling myself, this dose not hurt, don't worry, did the trick.

I guess i have completed step 1 of the 12 step handgun shooting program. I am at the mercy of a powerful beast, able to inflict lethal damage upon anything within its shot range, myself included. I am 'powerless' over the beast, and my shooting has become unmanagable

Screw the other steps, i need make no amends for my follys. This is just shooting. But i do find it imperative that i get the flinch gone before fall, since i intend to shoot a deer with one of my revolvers. No undue suffering because of misplaced shots is allowed in my world of ethics.

While i will definitely do my drill training with the smaller guns (22lr and 38 spl), i feel a need to master this issue with my 460 magnum. Kind of like hiking mount shasta... Sure there are smaller goals, but if i reach the bigger goal, all those smaller seem like cake

Kind of like trying my hand at shooting 50-75 yd handgun. After doing that, 7 yds seems like cheating. Even with my flinch.

Its all mental, and some, arent burdened with the natural inclination to respond to explosives going off in the hand. As a young'n, i always made sure the piccolo pete pipe toys had a LONG fuse and i got the hell into coverage!

Never experienced combat. Probably never will. Turkey loads in single shot h&r 12 gauges are the most shooting discomfort ive felt. Learned well the benefits of squeezing to the shoulder.

Maybeci have a bit much 'defense mechanism' built in. But, to be honest, the 460V does never induce any pain or hand discomfort. Its the damn muzzle blast that gets me rattled. It echoes through the canyon for a good 3 seconds. Thats longer than my 30-06

And doubling up on hearing protection makes me feel...well...deaf, and kinda retarded. If i cant even hear the birds, how am i gonna hear a truck or bear rolling up on me?

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I may need to look at this whole situation as a reason to justify getting a new gun. Something that keeps boolits under 1500 fps, but packing a punch. Maybe 44 time. Or, Maybe time to revisit my 400 grain loads with the 460.

[Whiterabbit]

My humble opinion as a 460 shooter.

you are screwing yourself by putting different loads in the same cylinder. I suggest you will be happier with the same load in there every single shot. Pick a favorite and accurate load, even if full power (especially if it is full power, otherwise whats the point?) and shoot ONLY that. Consistency. Consistency. You'll remove some mental block when you know EXACTLY what that gun is going to do EVERY time you pull the trigger. Heck, I stopped shooting one load for no other reason than the muzzle flash being variable. I want the confidence of consistency. Next, for a couple range sessions, dry fire every cylinder or two. If you flinch, keep dry firing until the flinch is gone, then next cylinder. Slow down. Think your way through every shot. Its ok to put the gun down in the middle of the cylinder, you dont need to fire 5 times every time you take aim. Arms get fatigued.

But above all else, seriously, no more lets-try-to-scare-ourselves-into-flinching drills. Consistency breeds confidence through expectation. I bet that improves your performance right up front.

[Whiterabbit]

Next time you go, take ONLY your 460 and stiff loads, one or two kinds of loads only. No switching between, shoot all of one then all of the other. Start with the heavier loads, finish light. Working up does nothing other than to psych yourself out: that progressive loads are to be ever increasingly over-respected/feared. Shoot those first without the unneeded buildup and a fresh mind, fresh arms, an most importantly (for me) fresh eyes. When you finish up with medium loads, or with 22lr (i assume the temptation to bring multiple guns is too great), then its more like a warm down than a warm up.

i'm usually good for 100-150 rounds in an hour to hour and a half session for indoor ranges. About half that outdoor (more specifically same amount, double the time)

[Wis. Tom]

Started a flinch coming on when I got the Magnum BFR. As soon as I noticed it, I started to throw in a dummy load or two, and found it was all in my trigger pull. The fluid and smooth pressure was be replaced with a sudden "jerk" of the trigger. Got through to my mind to repeat the consent pressure throughout the whole trigger pull until "bang", and the pulled groups went away, for the most part. That is what I found, can't say it will be the same for everyone. In slowing down my trigger pull, in my mind, I could even "see" the jerking motion I was doing that was causing my issues.

[bedbugbilly]

I don't think you are suffering form anything that anybody else who has shot pistols has suffered from . . and no matter how long a person has shot pistol . . . still does once in a while.

I don't shoot heavy cartridges - mainly .36 C & B BP (1851 Navies), 38s and 9mm. What strikes me right off the bat is your comment on your groups. Trust me - not being critical as we all want to shoot well. But, I think we all suffer at times (maybe a man thing?) about how tight our groups are instead of on our being able to relax and just enjoy the shooting? I'm not a competitive shooter - too old and my eyesight isn't up to it. I do look at what folks post as far as their targets, groups, etc. and sometimes say to myself . . "I wish I could shoot that well".

I have shot pistols for 50 years and I still find myself flinching at times regardless of the caliber . . . whether it be a 22 or a 38. I think a person has to work on their mental attitude and stop worrying about "am I going to shoot well" and just concentrate on the sight picture and target. The gun is going to go bang and the recoil will be there regardless of anything else. That's the last thing you should be worrying about. Start with being comfortable in your stance/position and grip and then concentrate on your sight picture and what you're shooting at - then just squeeze.

What's funny is that when I'm shooting by myself on the farm or at a range, I tend to be more relaxed and don't seem to have a problem with the flinching. But, when I go shooting at a range with a friend, I do at times. No one is trying to "out shoot" the other but I get more nervous shooting around others. This seems to be with pistol shooting for me as I never was nervous when shooting NSSA on a team.

I'm mainly a revolver shooter but I do have a 9mm SR9. I do notice that when I take that out to shoot, for the first few rounds I catch myself flinching. I think it's because the semi-auto feels and shoots differently than a revolver. My SR9 is plenty accurate and once I mentally relax and concentrate on what I'm shooting at and forget about the recoil, my groups tighten up and I can get decent groups on paper or knock off the tin cans better.

Not much different than learning to shoot a rifle well . . . concentrating on the sight picture and what you're shooting at, getting your breathing right and squeezing the trigger.

[unclebill]

if i havent gone shooting for a while i find that i sometimes have a flinch out of the blue.
so i randomly load a cylinder or have my wife do it
and try hard to concentrate on gently squeezing the trigger
that usually does the trick in short order.

[Virginia John]

I can usually put the first 2 shots right on point of aim but then the flinch kicks in and I go from a 1" group to a 4" group. I am very conscious of the pull but the flinch is still there. Sometimes it is down left and sometimes it is up right. I need to develop a zen like trance.

[MarkP]

20+ years ago I was shooting several rounds of skeet and sporting clays each week. One evening I shot skeet right after finishing up 100 rounds of sporting clays. I usually shot sporting clays with an 11-87 Sporting Clays 12 ga with 7/8 oz loads @ 1,325 fps and skeet with an 1100 Skeet in either .410 or 28 ga. I was really surprised when I caught myself throwing my shoulder when I shot the first skeet rock that night. I had no idea I was doing that until I fired the lighter recoiling gun. The recoil of an 8 pound gas operated auto with the loads mentioned above is pretty mild when compared to a double shooting a standard trap load.
I remember switching the other way; shooting the 12 ga after shooting a few hundred 28's or .410's and being surprised by the increased recoil.

A few weeks ago at the trap range I gave a guy one of my 3/4 oz 12 ga (1,150 ft/s) reloads to try in his BT-100 he moved his shoulder upon firing. He is a 6,000 round /yr trap shooter that scores well.

[slughammer]

Don't confuse flinching with anticipation of recoil. Familiarity with the same gun and load allows your body to control the recoil and muzzle flip. If you ever see a competition shooter shooting for speed and they get a light hit it looks a little like they flinched, but actually the path of the gun is forward and down (opposite of recoil). Their muscles are controlling the recoil and this allows them to go faster than they would if the gun recoiled freely.
For slow fire group shooting, call each shot when you take it, it's the best training aid I know. When you flinch, you don't call 3 o'clock, you call AWE what was that.... You know right away.

[JHeath]

There's a difference between anticipating recoil because it's a loud jolt, or flinching because it physically hurts.

I'm okay with large handguns, they don't hurt my hands. I discipline myself not to anticipate the recoil, but can deal with that using the techniques above.

My shoulder is bony and even moderately heavy rifle recoil is physically painful. The worst was a .454 Rossi 92 carbine with 300gr CorBon. No technique or discipline would make that one okay for me, and persisting would just ruin my shooting with other rifles. The correct answer is to stick to lower-recoiling rifles. Smaller chambers, heavier rifles, lower muzzle pressures via fast powders or long barrels. Also avoiding hunching over a benched rifle.

[Mik]

Caveman,

I recently took a class on helping shooter's overcome the "flinch". You are right, it is 100% mental.

With that in mind, the instructor of the course gave us this advice: never, ever call it a "flinch". I know it sounds weird, but words mean things. Flinching is a defensive reaction, the word denotes fear of something. It can be a self fulfilling prophecy.

Instead the instructor suggested calling it what it really is: a last second shift in mental focus from your sights to controlling the recoil. If you describe the issue that way, your mental thought process can be positive, "maintain focus" instead of negative, "don't flinch".

Its worked for more than a few people. Give it a try!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Dr. Caveman. If you are going to shoot the .460 well you are going to have to learn how to take the hit! All S&W revolvers, in recoil, hit the web of your hand hard between thumb and forefinger . How hard, depends on the load. But they all do it,,, It is just the design of the grip.

You have to learn how to shoot the gun. I would recommend some soft rubber grips that have some padding over the back strap of the gun.

Next I would either shoot some really reduced loads that are either .45 LC cases or .460 cases loaded to .45LC velocities. like 750 fps.

Once you get the hang of shooting the gun with these light loads, Like 6 months worth, you need to assess how much power you are going to need to kill whatever you point the thing at.. The .45 LC loads will kill any deer on earth, and heavy .45 LC loads will kill "anything" on earth.

The .44 Magnum has killed everything on earth as well and that is well below .454 Casull loadings, which would be the next major step up from the highest .45LC loads you could muster. With the new .45 LC cases that are available nowadays, like from Starline, you can load equal to or surpass any .44 Magnum load out there. Then up it with .454 cases and see how you can handle those heavy loads.

If you need to deal with a T Rex or possibly a 1/2 or 3/4 ton Pickup then you would be justified in shooting a few .460's, however there is absolutely no good reason to ever shoot rounds that heavy unless you do it at night just to see the muzzle blast.

If you were to actually confront something really huge like from Jurassic Park then shooting a real .460 load would not phase you in the slightest as you would be scared shipless and all your attention would be on the target, and your mind would be anticipating a more moderate hit anyway.

If you shoot a steady diet of .460's you will never break the flinch, simply because you are anticipating the hit and the resulting pain you're going to take everytime you pull, or more properly jerk the trigger.

In my prime I could shoot my M29 12 times before I started to flinch, and I was pretty good with it. Now I have a Ruger SBH Bisley which has a much more forgiving grip which distributes recoil much better. But I have learned that I have very little reason to shoot magnum loads in that gun simply because a paper target or a tin can will never know the difference. Also I can accomplish nearly everything I would want to do with midrange .44 Magnum loads and save the heavy loads for a bear or something.

I would literally be more likely to shoot a car than a bear where I live, so the magnum loads can just stay in the box for the day when the extra power is actually needed. Also I have a .44 Magnum Rifle I can shoot those loads in and actually do some good with it far more than could be accomplished with any Revolver.

I recently obtained a S&W696 which is a 5 shot L framed Revolver with a 3" bbl in .44 Special. It hits the web of my hand just like my M29 did 35 years ago. however I know I will not be shooting any **** kicker loads in that gun simply because it will kill anything I aim it at with midrange loads. IE: it only takes so much power to do the job. The rest is simply driving the Boolit deeper into the dirt on the back side. My 260 gr SWC's at 800 fps would easily go thru 3 men!

Learn to shoot with lighter loads, and save the heavy's for elephants. You'll shoot more and get a lot more enjoyment out of your gun.

My .02 on this subject.

Randy

[Whiterabbit]

Once you get the hang of shooting the gun with these light loads, Like 6 months worth, you need to assess how much power you are going to need to kill whatever you point the thing at.. The .45 LC loads will kill any deer on earth, and heavy .45 LC loads will kill "anything" on earth.

Learn to shoot with lighter loads, and save the heavy's for elephants. You'll shoot more and get a lot more enjoyment out of your gun.

My .02 on this subject.

Randy

Randy, everything you just said is entirely rational and I cannot disagree without being irrational, but I disagree. :) If gun design/mfg/ownership were assessed on need alone, we would not have the lovely variety out there that we have today. Or put in shorter terms, I'm frequently asked "why?!" when I describe the BFR to people. I say "For fun?". There is no rational need. You are 100% right. But shooting a 460 (among MANY other cartridges, calibers, action types, and more) has nothing to do with filling a need.

Otherwise, once we rationally reason through your post above, there is only ONE conclusion: sell the 460 and never shoot anything like it! There is no need.

[W.R.Buchanan]

White Rabbit. I love to be rational, it's kind of what I'm all about.

If you saw my three guns safes you'd realize that I don't always practice what I preach. Wants and Needs are definitely not the same animal.

My main point with that post was to convince this guy to shoot a lot of light stuff and then when he feels the need to make a statement, pop off a few of the big guys, with the intention that the Flinch wouldn't return for at least a few rounds. I doubt there are many people on this planet that can fire one of those guns five times in a row without flinching. I just watched Jerry Miculek flinch on one of his very informative videos yesterday. He was shooting a .357 with 38 Special loads! So no one is immune.

I doubt anyone could afford to shoot a steady diet of Factory .460's anyway, and if you're going to reload then the only person who would know they weren't full house loads would be you, or maybe some highly informed shooter down the line.

But in the end the only way to beat the flinch is to "learn to take the hit."

Randy

[Whiterabbit]

One of a few things I have learned shooting 460:

Light loads are a waste of time. Anyone that wants to shoot a light-load 460, buy a ruger blackhawk and enjoy a lighter, easier to handle, easier to carry gun. or ditto any 45 colt pistol. Why would I buy a 5 pound pig of a revolver to shoot what I could shoot from a blackhawk, vaquero, freedom arms, colt, etc etc etc etc? If I bought a BFR460 and shot nothing but cowboy colts from it, I could have saved $500 and bought a BH or Vaquero. And if my intention was to shoot only 454 or 30ksi 45 colts, then I should have bought a 454 or a strong 45.

That's exactly the reason why, if I ever buy a carry pistol, it will be in 38. because for me, a 357 would be a waste. Same rationale.

[DrCaveman]

Somehow, i kind of agree with all of you

Randy, i appreciate the suggestion of figuring out what load level i actually 'need'. Ive already decided that full-house h110/lil gun loads with 200-250 grain boolits are something i dont like, and dont need. So, when i can find a load that shoots accurately and delivers a larger (300-370 grain) boolit somewheres between 1400-1800 fps, ill be content and stick with that load for my elephant encounters

Whiterabbit, i can give you most of the credit for convincing me not to shoot 45 colt loads or even 454 casull loads in the 4-pound pig that is the X frame. Like you say, there are much easier carrying and handling guns that will deliver those loads with ease...and maybe better accuracy due to barrel twist. Thats why i picked up the cimarron/pietta new frontier with 4.75" barrel (and that sucker is a hoot...maybe my current favorite shooter...$450 well spent...and probably my hip buddy come deer season...get some shot shell loads, nab some quail for dinner)

The flinch problem isnt limited to shoooting the 460...i just suspect that i may have developed the flinch by shooting the heavy loads in 460. Ive got plenty of lighter loads (and guns) to practice ridding myself of flinch. I guess the hurdle is then to maintain the proper mind set when i DO pick up the 460 with some beastly loads.

What i dont want to do is fool myself into thinking that the big gun will shoot like a 22. What i do want to do is treat EVERY gun with equal respect, and no fear or anticipation of anything. Id like to be able to be blindfolded, someone hand me a gun, i cock the hammer, squeeze the trigger, and no flinch.

In the interest of achieving that goal, ive loaded up a few hundred each of trail boss 45 colt loads and unique 38 spl loads for this weekend. I doubt i get through them all with my ball and dummy drills, but im sure i will improve. Oh yeah, some zen meditation and a few extra cigarette breaks during shooting to keep the pace civil, and the mind right. Ill probably even bring a few IPAs (heresy!), taking a hint from page 94 of Sixguns.

Thanks again for the help, keep those tips coming

[44MAG#1]

Well I guess you have it figured out. Good luck.

[DrCaveman]

Well I guess you have it figured out. Good luck.

Not sure of your level of sarcasm. I definitely DO NOT have it figured out, but im trying to get there. I understand that you shoot big handguns, and appreciate the personal advice you have given, and hope to achieve your level of proficiency with the big guns...some day

Is there something about my last post that you consider foolish or contrary to your advice? I know that the issue is mental, and this is my attempt to conquer it

Maybe im being a schitzo/hypocrite (not surprising) but i would welcome plainly laid out drills for practice in the mental training aspect of revolver shooting. Beyond,or in addition to those helpful ones already mentioned in this thread.

Hell, what i most need is to go shoot every evening. It'd be cool if i was a retired millionaire, but people have done more with less than i have, so i shouldnt complain

[44MAG#1]

"Not sure of your level of sarcasm. "
You can read anything into what I said but how do you know I said it sarcastically? You don't. Just your interpretation of my statement. I will tell you this like someone else has said. You will not do the mental thing unless you take the hit. Mental preparing for taking recoil can be quite challenging.
Piddling with low loads, dry firing wont do it. Its taking yourself by the boot straps and doing a mental assessment on this.
You fire the big boys 2, 3, or 4 times and you take the gun down and say: "Hey I still have my hand and arm, the gun didn't bust my head, I am not the worse for wear and I am still alive after touching off this artillery cannon so HEY it wont hurt me. That is the first step in mentally handling it. Realizing that they WONT hurt you and then mentally digesting that not just saying as a passing thought.
Until you actually get hold of that thought you will not get it. Just like a boxer, you can punch the speed bag, annihilate the heavy bag, dance around the ring throwing punches but that does not train you to get hit by the other guy. How much of taking a hit by the other guy is mental would you say? All this is meant to help you, not be sarcastic or mean. Just trying to get you to wake up. That is what I had to do. I know if a simpleton like me can do it you can too. But then again maybe it takes a simpleton I don't know. I've seen far smarter people than me do complicated junk just to get to the same place as a simpleton was and he got there with a lot less effort then the educated would make fun of the simpleton.. I wont bother you anymore on this subject.. It is up to you to see the writing on the wall.

[GP100man]

I find if I can shoot some long distance , anticipating/looking for impact at the longer distance takes my mind off the blast/flash of recoil & really calms my flinch , even with the big boomers!

Another plus is it really helps my groupin at normal handgun ranges , this works (for me at least on either open sited or optically enhanced handguns.

It really works when I set a reaction target instead of a peice of paper, either peices of steel (car/truck rims or a water filled container, paper puts the "grouping"pressure on & makes ya concentrate on techniques which in turn makes ya super concious of the firearms blast/flash & may even make a flinch worse !

What I`m saying is go have some long distanceshooting FUN !!!

GP100man

[35 Whelen]

You MUST get to the point where recoil never enters your mind and the only thing you're focused on is the sight picture, trigger squeeze, and follow through. I disagree with those who say keep.shooting heavy loads until you're over it. If I were you I'd become intimate with that 45 Colt shooting it until recoil was the furthest thing from my mind, then if you still feel like you need tbe 460, go back to it.

35W

[Mik]

As a specific drill, try shooting smallish reactive targets. 2x2 steel, balloons, aluminum cans. This way you get positive feedback on the hits and you learn instantly what it feels like to do it right.

My personal opinion is that marksmanship is a predominantly mental skill that can be applied across platforms. I wouldn't practice rifle marksmanship with a 50 BMG because it just doesn't allow for the repetition you need to learn. I don't know why you would want to practice pistol marksmanship with full-bore .460 loads.

[W.R.Buchanan]

All of the above posts are saying the same thing.. You got to learn to take the hit.

In order to take it, you have to be OK with it. You know what's coming, and you know what it is going to feel like.

You have to mentally be OK with what is going to happen after you pull the trigger.

Obviously in order to hit anything you have to aim the gun and break the trigger correctly,,, This stuff all takes place BEFORE the recoil hits.

These actions are completely different and happen at two different times, so mentally you CAN separate them, which is exactly what you will have to learn how to do.

You have to keep your head screwed on thru the first portion of the event and concentrate on the basics so that the shot goes where you want it to.. Since you are prepared to receive the recoil after all this occurs,,, you will learn to make the shot first and then absorb the recoil later.

This is a mental thing and all of the suggestions I have made above about shooting light loads are how you learn to shoot THIS gun. I am talking sight alignment of THIS gun and trigger control of THIS gun. Once you have this part down without the distraction of Horrendous Recoil, then you can shoot the heavy loads and at least have some possibility of success. As it sits you only experience with this gun has been painful and as a result your body is reacting to what it knows is coming before it ever happens,,, Flinch.

I figured you had other guns simply because nobody with a brain would have a gun like this as his only gun. It is kind of a specialized piece. You can practice the same things with the other guns as all of my points above translate to shooting any revolver or pistol or for that matter rifles and shotguns as well.

With all guns you have to be OK with the recoil, or else you aren't going to shoot the gun well, or in some cases,,, at all.

I had a really nice Husqvarna .30-06 that was made in 1951 and the gun was nearly perfect. I bought it in 1978. I had only shot it with my light reloads with cast boolits in the past, but decided to shoot it with some factory loads I had one day. The gun had a 30 year old recoil pad on it that was hard as a rock.

I lasted 6 shots and had a Black and Blue shoulder too boot. This gun knocked me silly! Literally brought tears to my eyes!

I changed the recoil pad to a new one and went back and whereas it was better it still was brutal to shoot. The stock design was 1950's and I simply couldn't shoot it. I sold the gun because I was not willing to take the recoil it dished out. I knew I could never shoot it enough to get good with it,,, or even sight it in!

I bought a Ruger Guide Gun in .30-06 which I can shoot all day long!

How can I take shooting 250 rounds thru my 12 ga. Trap Gun in one day and not be able to take 6 rounds thru a rifle that should recoil the exact same amount? IE: 15 ft lbs. Answer; the guns design allows me to take a hit that I can accept.

There is no short answer to your problem, You will just have to figure it out. I'd at least try some of my suggestions.

I guess when it comes to shooting this particular gun you will have to either learn to Swallow,,, or Spit.

Randy

[monadnock#5]

A long time ago I read a story where the hero would use self induced hypnosis to focus his mind "Mental clearance sale-All must go".

This is the direction you need go. You have too much stuff in your head to concentrate properly. You don't shoot the Boolit, you ARE the Boolit.

[jonp]

You went at that exactly right. Whenever I notice I'm starting to flinch a little running hot 357 or 45Colt loads out comes my single six to settle myself back down.

[monadnock#5]

Agreed. I have a S&W617 that I take every time I go to the range. I don't necessarily shoot it every time, but I take comfort knowing that there is at least one gun in the bag that I know will put lights out.

[DrCaveman]

A long time ago I read a story where the hero would use self induced hypnosis to focus his mind "Mental clearance sale-All must go".

This is the direction you need go. You have too much stuff in your head to concentrate properly. You don't shoot the Boolit, you ARE the Boolit.

Interesting take. I like it.

Happy 4th, everybody. Time to light the grill and get ready for some flashes and booms in a few hours. I hope you all have had a fun and safe day

[DrCaveman]

Howdy, i hope everybody had an enjoyable weekend and got a chance to go swimming. It's rare that swimming is nice this time of year here, we are usually still getting fresh snow melt in the rivers.

So i tried several of the suggestions given to me. Id say that everything helped, but to my surprise the doubling up of hearing protection was the most significant

Im gonna venture to say that my recoil sensitivity is mostly sound-related

With the plugs&muffs combo, the 460 really wasnt too loud, and i was able to concentrate better on the actual recoil being experienced, and noticed my eyes staying open better throughout trigger pull

This, in turn, helped me mentally reason to myself that this beast could be harnessed. Flinch reduced a lot, and nothing was worse for the wear. My 'groups' were still not super small, but the number of hits on the bull at 25 yds was satisfying to me

Yes, most of my shooting was longer range than usual, at 25 yds. I wasnt in a great place for 50-75 yd shooting, but i think this longer range helped this process. It was fun in any case

I started the day with some boomers, and i think that was a good choice. I really noticed the eye fatigue after a while (the time at which i usually START shooting the 460), so thank you whiterabbit for that suggestion

NOW, my problem is getting **** in my eyes from keeping them open! I use wrap-around glasses, but i may need to switch to goggles. Who else has this problem? I take it most of you guys shoot with your prescription lenses, or similar eyewear

-----

Thanks everyone, for all the suggestions. I hope i havent played any favorites...i really do appreciate everyone sharing their ideas, and ive taken them to heart whether i mentioned them today or not. You know, some ideas are contrary to others and i gotta pick a path...for today. Tomorrow may be different

[TXGunNut]

Glad it's working out for you, big boomers are fun to shoot even if they don't make much sense. My advice is to know when to pack it up and go home. Starting with a .22 or focusing on the .22 or a light recoiling handgun for a session or two is helpful. Shooting a big boomer until you flinch isn't. If you want to shoot the big gun shoot it only as long as you can do so while keeping a firm grip (pun intended) on the fundamentals. A big boomer makes you focus on the fundamentals more than a gentler handgun, they are very unforgiving. Shooting a big boomer is tiring, no one can deny that. When the time comes get out the .22 or .38 and enjoy the rest of your session. End your session while shooting well, not after your technique causes your group to suffer.

[Whiterabbit]

My shooting glasses look terrible. I didn't notice it until a few weeks ago. Must be the 460, nothing else I have blows back like the 460. Eye fatigue gets me too. I end up taking a target paster and sticking it over my left lens so I can keep it open without messing with the sight picture. Guy in my black powder club has a fancy pin hole ocular that sits over his eye, says it really helps sharpen up the front sight. I gotta try that.

[Scharfschuetze]

A long time ago I read a story where the hero would use self induced hypnosis to focus his mind "Mental clearance sale-All must go".

There's probably something to that. Many match shooters will close their eyes and envision the upcoming shot from presentation, hold, sighting, trigger pull and follow through before firing the shot in the slow fire stages of a match. I often did this during the slow fire stages of the NM course. Of course that doesn't work too well in the real world or during the rapid fire stages, but it might be something you'd like to try in pursuing that perfect shot without anticipating the shot.

For clearing up that front sight you should investigate the Merrit adjustable aperture that uses a suction cup to stick to your shooting glasses.

Here is a link:

http://www.bullseyegear.com/bullseyepistolreviews/?page_id=32

[Whiterabbit]

Another tip I learned recently.

Seperate the muscle memory from the mental part entirely. That is to say, divorce the expectation of gun operation from the expectation of physical experience to hand and arm. It's simpler in action than it is to describe. Just shoot a bunch while rested. I've learned you can have TERRIBLE flinch, and it goes away quickly and reliably when you shoot rested. How does that help? The trigger time ensures your hand and arms and physical reaction are completely trained into mindless muscle memory, that you are further making gun performance and physical performance absolutely uniform, every time. Also helps load development :)

So when you go for that self training for the mental block, you've already got all the physical stuff trained out and solid.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Glad this is progressing. You will get used to it eventually and as you try different things you will find success.

My take on shooting "groups" for a gun like this is that you need to do it to sight it in once you've established a load you're happy with.

After that it is all about hitting "things."

IF you can consistently hit a 9" paper plate at 50-75 yards with open sights then you are doing pretty much everything you need to do from your end of the equation. Mounting a scope could increase the range also.

After that it is up to the Hand Cannon to prove it's worth. ANY THING that gets hit by that gun is going to be,,,, uuuuh,,, hurt bad!

This is definitely a place where the second rule of Gun Safety applies. "Never point a gun at anything you are not willing to destroy."

"Destroy" being the operative word in that sentence!

I know you're gonna have fun!

Randy

[Eagle66]

What I can't figure out is why I flinch more with with 38's in my GP100 than I do with hot loads in my .50 flintlock pistol. Shoot better groups with the so-called 'flinchlock", too. :groner:

[monadnock#5]

Carbine Williams 1952, starring James Stewart. Mr. Williams was a moonshiner who was imprisoned for the killing of a sherriff's deputy during a raid. While in prison, Mr. Williams spent a considerable amount of time in solitary. He claimed that he was able to find relief from back pain while in "the hole", by taking guns to pieces and putting them back together again in his head. "The human brain can hold only one thought at a time" or words to that effect. Thus, he was able to relieve the pain by focusing on his love of guns.

Logically therefore, if you allow thoughts of whatever else is going on in your life to intrude, your ability to focus on the task at hand will be severely limited.

"FRONT SIGHT FOCUS". It's not just a good suggestion. It is what the task demands.

[35 Whelen]

Carbine Williams 1952, starring James Stewart. Mr. Williams was a moonshiner who was imprisoned for the killing of a sherriff's deputy during a raid. While in prison, Mr. Williams spent a considerable amount of time in solitary. He claimed that he was able to find relief from back pain while in "the hole", by taking guns to pieces and putting them back together again in his head. "The human brain can hold only one thought at a time" or words to that effect. Thus, he was able to relieve the pain by focusing on his love of guns.

Logically therefore, if you allow thoughts of whatever else is going on in your life to intrude, your ability to focus on the task at hand will be severely limited.

"FRONT SIGHT FOCUS". It's not just a good suggestion. It is what the task demands.

Excellent point! This would help explain why most never notice recoil while shooting at game to the extent they do when shooting at targets; all the focus is on the game.

35W