9MM is swaging down slightly when seating - Lyman M as a solution?

[kenn]

I've got my Lee 4-die set in .45ACP working fine after adjusting it to bell the case mouth a bit more, but I can't seem to stop my 9MM lee set from swaging the bullet down as well as scraping some of the powdercoat off. I've lowered the powder through lee case expander die down a bit to get a larger flare and that helps a bit, but it's such a shallow flare and if I go any deeper I'm concerned I'm going to damage the brass. It's not sizing down by much, but boolits are going in at .3575 and after seating and an extremely light crimp to remove the bell, I'm seeing them swaged down to .357. That may very well be OK but it does appear the driving bands are taking a bit of abuse in the seating. That plus the bell allows the boolit to rock a bit on seating contributing to shaving off tiny amounts of PC or lead in the tumble lubed ones.

Enter the idea of Lyman M expander die. I like the idea of a 2-stage flare that goes a bit deeper. Before I go buy yet another piece of hardware, will this be a better option?

I'm running straight COWW that are water dropped so they are pretty hard.

[Jailer]

There is an easier way. Get a 38 S&W powder through expander plug and run it in your 9mm powder die.

http://http://leeprecision.com/pm-expan-plg-38-s-w.html

A thread to explain the function.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?124464-38-357-Lee-powder-through-expander-in-9mm-die-mod

[Moonie]

There is an easier way. Get a 38 S&W powder through expander plug and run it in your 9mm powder die.

http://http://leeprecision.com/pm-expan-plg-38-s-w.html

A thread to explain the function.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?124464-38-357-Lee-powder-through-expander-in-9mm-die-mod

This fixes your issue, I'm sure an M-die would as well but the powder through expander is a cheap and easy fix to your issue that will not cause you any additional steps.

[Idz]

One thing the M die did for me is to align the bullet better. The Lee is a cone and the bullet can tip to the side and scrape the PC. The M die forms a step, not a cone, so the bullet sits squarely and is less likely to scrape the coating. You might also chamfer the inside edge of the case to remove any burrs.

[robertbank]

Kenn I really don't see a problem with .357 boolits in a 9MM gun. If you were seeing .356 or less then maybe but .357? I size my 9mm boolits .357 for my M&P's, 2 CZs, Tanfoglio and an STI Trojan. Personally I would not give it a moments thought. .005" is really just noise. I would expect that much variance in my cast boolits due to alloy variation.

Take them to the range and see if they make a difference. Frankly, in a blind test I doubt you will see any practical effect on your results.

Take Care

Bob

[aussie-dave]

"There is an easier way. Get a 38 S&W powder through expander plug and run it in your 9mm powder die."
Spot on, using this cheap, effective method did wonders for my 92FS using .358 boolits.

[kenn]

Thanks guys. I'm not concerned about losing .0005 nearly as much as I am the fact that it is pushing down hard enough that it is shaving lead and/or powder coating at the same time. The fact that it is swaging down consistently by that much tells me that it's too tight even with my Lee expander dialed down where it feels like I'm going to tear the mouth of the brass. I am using a lee sizer that sizes to .3575 and with my micrometer, it measures .3575 very consistently before seating and .3570 and occasionally .3569 after seating (before crimping). I ordered the 38S&W plug. For $3, it's worth a try to keep the powder coat intact and get the boolit aligned better before it is seated and hopefully eliminate a possible leading variable.

[robertbank]

kenn how much are you belling your cases before inserting the bullet? If it is flared properly I don't see how you should be encountering shaving. Mind I use a Dillon 550B so it is difficult to compare problems encountered. Again .3569 - .3575 is really just noise and should have no effect on bullet performance. What gun are you using to shoot these in? Standard jacketed 9MM bullets are .355 in diameter so you have room to lose and still enjoy a tight barrel to bullet fit. I use water quenched WW alloy boolits and when seated expand the brass a bit when seated. They certainly don't get sized down by the brass to the point where it affects performance. I have had to pull the odd bullet and I have never seen any sign of shaving or swagging down.

Take Care

Bob

[a.squibload]

Another recent thread, same subject:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?245411-Seating-removing-some-PC

Was having same problem, several calibers.
Just received my custom plugs for Lyman M-die from Buckshot (here on CB),
time to start loading!

[mdi]

I recommend to a new reloader (or anyone with lead bullet problems) to flare the case as much as needed, even if you make your cases look like funnels! Forget comments like "it'll shorten the case life" or "you'll work harden the brass". "Over working" may shorten the case life, but how much? 9mm brass is plentiful so if you only get 8 reloadings rather than 12, just get more. It's a lot less frustrating/stressful making sure the case is flared and getting easier bullet seating no bullet scraping than worrying about how long your brass will last. Get good shootable ammo first, then worry about how long your brass will last...
From your post you are losing .0005" from the diameter of the bullet? That's not much, but I'd look at a crimp to see if that's swaging the bullet. Not using an FCD are you?

Oh, an M die is a good thing to have to get a square flare on the case mouth and making seating easy.

[robertbank]

I recommend to a new reloader (or anyone with lead bullet problems) to flare the case as much as needed. Forget comments like "it'll shorten the case life" or "you'll work harden the brass". "Over working" may shorten the case life, but how much? 9mm brass is plentiful so if you only get 8 reloadings rather than 12, just get more. It's a lot less frustrating/stressful making sure the case is flared and getting easier bullet seating no bullet scraping than worrying about how long your brass will last. Get good shootable ammo first, then worry about how long your brass will last...

Excellent advice.

Take Care

Bob

[petroid]

Are you PCing after water dropping your boolits. If so, the curing if the PC will negate any hardness obtained by water dropping. You may try water dropping out of the PC oven

[jwber]

+ whatever on the 38 S&W expander. This did wonders for me trying to seat .3575 and .358 bullets.

The only thing I don't like about it is it seems a lil stiffer/rougher on the down stroke when it dumps the powder on my Lee Classic Cast Turret. I'm going to be going Dillon soon going to try their powder measure if it doesn't work I'll slap the Auto Disk Pro with the 38 S&W expander on the press.

[kenn]

I recommend to a new reloader (or anyone with lead bullet problems) to flare the case as much as needed, even if you make your cases look like funnels! Forget comments like "it'll shorten the case life" or "you'll work harden the brass". "Over working" may shorten the case life, but how much? 9mm brass is plentiful so if you only get 8 reloadings rather than 12, just get more. It's a lot less frustrating/stressful making sure the case is flared and getting easier bullet seating no bullet scraping than worrying about how long your brass will last. Get good shootable ammo first, then worry about how long your brass will last...
From your post you are losing .0005" from the diameter of the bullet? That's not much, but I'd look at a crimp to see if that's swaging the bullet. Not using an FCD are you?

Oh, an M die is a good thing to have to get a square flare on the case mouth and making seating easy.

I am using an FCD, but not before measuring for PC damage or swaging down. That's happening before the FCD crimp The FCD, when tested, isn't swaging down any further. I did the funnel thing to the point it wasn't going any further without splitting and indeed it does look funny. The issue that wide is that it's tough to get it back into the FCD to remove the bell afterward as it either barely fits or doesn't if I'm just a hair too wide. I'll experiment with it some tonight and see if I can go wider but still get it to fit. Fine line there...


Are you PCing after water dropping your boolits. If so, the curing if the PC will negate any hardness obtained by water dropping. You may try water dropping out of the PC oven

I may do that next time for hardening the PC but my goal with water drop was to preserve the boolit so they don't bang on each other and dent the bands plus I'm doing both TC and PC until I find which one serves me better. I'll have to shoot both indoor and outdoor at times and may end up doing both over time. That means the TC ones are still hardness improved from the water drop.


+ whatever on the 38 S&W expander. This did wonders for me trying to seat .3575 and .358 bullets.

The only thing I don't like about it is it seems a lil stiffer/rougher on the down stroke when it dumps the powder on my Lee Classic Cast Turret. I'm going to be going Dillon soon going to try their powder measure if it doesn't work I'll slap the Auto Disk Pro with the 38 S&W expander on the press.

I'm not doing any powder through actually as I have a very old #55 thrower that still measures bullseye extremely well so I hand load each case. Slower but it works.

[kenn]

Another recent thread, same subject:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?245411-Seating-removing-some-PC

Was having same problem, several calibers.
Just received my custom plugs for Lyman M-die from Buckshot (here on CB),
time to start loading!

Whoops, missed one. Yeah, that was actually my post on my .45 having powder removed. A larger bell pretty much cleared that one right up but even with the larger bell in the 9MM, I can still "feel" the grinding pressure when the boolit is seated. It's a very different feel from seating a copper JHP and I can tell there is damage being done to it no matter how straight I set it in the case. On the 45, the addtitional bell smoothed things out and I'm good there.

[garym1a2]

This worked for me too. The "M" die did not. I also notice the harder down stroke.


+ whatever on the 38 S&W expander. This did wonders for me trying to seat .3575 and .358 bullets.

The only thing I don't like about it is it seems a lil stiffer/rougher on the down stroke when it dumps the powder on my Lee Classic Cast Turret. I'm going to be going Dillon soon going to try their powder measure if it doesn't work I'll slap the Auto Disk Pro with the 38 S&W expander on the press.

[kenn]

Opened up the flare a bit more last night only to still hear that "crunching" noise as I seated. I disassembled the seating die to discover something as a noob I should have known, but didn't. Even though I purchased the Lee 4-die set with the separate FCD, the seating die still crimps if seated too deep. I backed it way out and turned the seating screw almost all the way in to compensate. The crimping was occurring right as I was reaching the end of the seating push and causing the scrape. This didn't eliminate the swaging down, though but it is minor enough that it will probably work. I've already ordered the 38S&W part, though so I'll experiment with it, but I do believe that if I mess with it enough, I could probably work out the kinks without the 38 plug... For those that are having this issue, make sure your seating die isn't down too far where crimping is starting before the seating process is complete.

[gunoil]

Measure all those lead projectiles, see how different they are.

[a.squibload]

I and others have found that the bell can get squished when entering the seating die
(not just Lee). Loaded some the other night, this can still happen even after expanding
the case mouth with the M-die. Only scraped a few on seating, better than before.
I plan to take advice from the other thread (can't remember who it was!) and hone the
inside of the seating dies for a little more clearance.

[kenn]

I and others have found that the bell can get squished when entering the seating die
(not just Lee). Loaded some the other night, this can still happen even after expanding
the case mouth with the M-die. Only scraped a few on seating, better than before.
I plan to take advice from the other thread (can't remember who it was!) and hone the
inside of the seating dies for a little more clearance.

This is probably a good idea but I don't have the tools for it I don't think. Inside my lee seating die it looks basically 2-stage with a significant edge between where the die isn't and is supposed to start crimping. With a wide bell, it still scrapes the wider part of the die just a little but at least isn't crimping much, if any. I guess something that was tapered a bit more would make sense...