more on Lee tumble lube

[hornetguy]

Has anyone ever tried to reflow the lube, once on the boolits?

I know you can melt and remelt Lee's alox pan lube, but I've never tried it with the tumble lube.

I'm doing an experiment as we speak, with about 5 sticky ones, to see if warming them up to about 250 will reflow the lube for a more even coating.

film at 11......

[racepres]

I would bet that it would work.. but, how ya gonna keep it from 'flowin'" off to the bottom o the pan??? MV

[hornetguy]

I would bet that it would work.. but, how ya gonna keep it from 'flowin'" off to the bottom o the pan??? MV

I was hoping to find the "magic" temp that would get it to start to flow, but not get it too thin.
Kind of the way it does when you first put it on.

Gravity IS a pain, sometimes.

[racepres]

I kinda know what yer up to... I went to the "tool store" and got one of those "grabbers" for small parts on a rigid stem [they are made on a flexible stem also] the one w/ retractable fingers for retrieving small parts. I use it to "grab" the end of boolits in order to dip them in the LLA up to the front band , and then set them on a wax paper to dry..... I don't like the lube "all over".. Just on the band! Slow for sure .. but effective for me when I use LLA. MV

[Ranch Dog]

I don't think it will achieve what you are hoping for. If it flows at all it will pull from the lube in the grooves more than it will pull lube from the body on the bullet body. Don't set them on Momma's cookie tray for the experiment! I lube a bunch of bullets but no longer work with traditional lube grooved bullets as I only shoot those with the Micro-Bands. Most of my rifle bullets are dipped base first and then set on their base on a sheet of wax paper. If I can't grab the bullet nose with my fingers, I use a "grabber" like racepres mentioned above. After the setup time and the bullets are off the wax paper, I use a putty knife to remove the remaining lube off the paper and store it for reuse.

Running the bullets through a Lee Lube & Size Kit die will really leave them clean. All of the bullets I cast have L&SK dies associated with the mold and pretty much just seat the gas check without really sizing the bullet. If there is much resistance from the die with a particular batch of dropped bullets, I simple pre-lube the die with a little bit of Alox on a bore mop. The Alox really, really hangs in there and I usually don't need to re-lube the die with the mop.

Sometimes I will tumble a batch of "fat" bullets before sizing. I simply thin the Alox and it won't create a mess. One of the attached photos will show that. The bullet had a light coat of tumbled Alox for the sizing operation and then was dipped base first as described above. I always complete my lubing before the pass through the sizing die as that will clean the bullets up real nice! In fact this method is probably about the best for a quick fill of the lube bands and would be worthy of a trial with traditional lube grooves. The Alox definitely attracts and attaches to itself with subsequent applications and it might fill those grooves faster.

Melting a bunch of bullets in a casting pot will teach you a lot about Alox. I've melted bullets with just about every kind of lube and one way or another the lube will boil or burn off. Not Alox or at least now with a Lee pot on max. What a mess! The lube will flow to the sides of the pot and pretty much never go away.

The little bands of sticky stuff really impress me with all the shooting I do but the bullet I'm working on for my Marlin 375 really tops them all. This bullet has two lube grooves and is only exiting the barrel at 2000 FPS. But its doing it with 54.5K PSI behind it! This is a WW mix that approximates Lyman #2 with #8 shot added and then water quenched for a BHN of 21. There is no leading and a beautiful lube star at the muzzle. I've attached images of that bullet. Lots of lead up front with only two Micro-Bands at the base. The forward bands are crimp grooves at various locations on this trial bullet mold and all but one or two will go away on the inventory molds.

[PatMarlin]

The little I've used LLA was kind of a pain as it kept gumming up my dies. What am I doin wrong?

I wound up using the micro band boolits in my Lyman 45 sizing die with what ever lube I had on hand, and it shot well. At least for my 45acp.

Havn't tried my Ranch Dogs yet.. :drinks:

[Ricochet]

My seating dies gum up with ANY kind of lube on the boolit's ogive. Have to stop and scrape it out now and then if I don't want the boolits to seat deeper and deeper, or else progressively back out the die. A very light coat of LLA prolongs the clogging process greatly, but there's still transfer of the lube to the seating punch.

If you want to reflow LLA, you'll have to do it with solvent. Forget heat, it won't flow till the boolits sag.

[hornetguy]

My seating dies gum up with ANY kind of lube on the boolit's ogive. Have to stop and scrape it out now and then if I don't want the boolits to seat deeper and deeper, or else progressively back out the die. A very light coat of LLA prolongs the clogging process greatly, but there's still transfer of the lube to the seating punch.

If you want to reflow LLA, you'll have to do it with solvent. Forget heat, it won't flow till the boolits sag.

so, the solvent of choice would be mineral spirits? Or is there something better?

[Ricochet]

Yes, mineral spirits is the stuff it comes dissolved in.

[Ranch Dog]

Ricochet... You using a Lee seating die? If so and if it adjusted right... steel against lead displaces Alox every time. The Lee bullet seating die should bottom out (ram fully raised) and there is plenty of room inside of the die barrel for any wax to move out of the way.

I load thousands of bullets a year in all these lever calibers and I haven't cleaned my dies in several years. Actually, the largest buildup of Alox I see is with the Lee Factory Crimp Die. There is always a big wad of dried Alox sitting on top of it. Kind'a like a bugger! Pick it and throw it away!

[Ranch Dog]

The little I've used LLA was kind of a pain as it kept gumming up my dies. What am I doin wrong?

You must be using too much. Look at the image above, the bullet on the left. That bullet has been tumbled once with a very, very light coat of Alox. I let it dry and dip as explained above. The excess wax is removed by the L&SK die.

[Ricochet]

Yes, RD, I use mainly Lee dies. The problem comes with wax or Alox getting trapped in the hollow cavity in the end of the seating plug, filling it and pressing the boolit in progressively deeper in the cases as it builds up. It definitely won't flow around the boolit! It just has to be cleaned out. I unscrew the die and dig it out with a little screwdriver.

The buildup on the Factory Crimp Dies looks nasty, but affects nothing functionally.

[calsite]

are you letting it completely dry before resizing? I think I let mine dry 2-3 hours before I resized I think I going to try thinning mine abit with Mineral spirits for resizing , that outta speed up drying time and then try dipping them a second time like RanchDog, those are some purdy boolits

[Bad Water Bill]

CALSITE Well you made me do it. I took out a bottle of LLA and READ THE INSTRUCTIONS. I hate to admit that in public. So put on wax paper and let dry over nite. If 3 hours is over nite to you you must be suffering from a bad case of sleep deprovation. I find that 6-8 hours works much better providing it is not a hot stickey nite in the Liberal Republik of Richard Dailey. :kidding: BWB :castmine:

[Lloyd Smale]

ranch dog i just ordered one of your molds for the first time and reading this i have a few questions. First i got the sizer too. Do you find that you usually get better accuracy with the ranch dog bullets sizing the bullet to true it up or unsized or is it just pot luck depending on the gun or are you just using the sizer to seat the gas check and spec out a sizer that doesnt size your bullets much.]. Second do i understand correctly that you lube then size and then just shoot them. Ive allways lubed sized then lubed again when using tumble lube. Is this a waste of time. I guess i allways did it becasuse i never had that good of luck with tumble lube and figured a little more would be better. Also i see you dip your bullets. Any advantage to that over shaking them in a bowl other then keeping the lube off then noses to keep the mess down. The only thing i tumble lube anymore is 38 special bullets and sure wouldnt want to hastle with dipping them. I shot just to many of them but i guess I could do it with the 4570s if theres any advantage to it.
You must be using too much. Look at the image above, the bullet on the left. That bullet has been tumbled once with a very, very light coat of Alox. I let it dry and dip as explained above. The excess wax is removed by the L&SK die.

[calsite]

I think the bottle says let dry and then apply abit more when resizing (correct) I've actually resized mine right after I lubed them and then let them dry, and lubed them again. I think the way the bottle says probably works the best. I run a .44 cal. bore brush with a little Hoppes on it through my sizer die when I'm done to keep her clean. I had a buddy tell me that adding Mineral Spirits to the L. Alox would speed the drying time. Thanks for the shout.

[hornetguy]

I warmed the 5 boolits up to about 250 for maybe 10 minutes. It didn't affect the lube much, but they do feel slightly less sticky now.. could just be my imagination.

I'm thinking that when I get to casting for the 45-70, I'll maybe just do the dip thing. I think that getting the sequence right will be the key...

maybe, dip, let dry, put gc on, push thru sizer, see how the boolit looks after that.

I really don't like lube on the gc.... maybe it won't affect the powder, but I just have visions of loaded cartridges sitting there, with the lube soaking into the powder...

maybe I think too much.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive had tumblelube contaminate powder in my 38s so dont think it cant happen.
I warmed the 5 boolits up to about 250 for maybe 10 minutes. It didn't affect the lube much, but they do feel slightly less sticky now.. could just be my imagination.

I'm thinking that when I get to casting for the 45-70, I'll maybe just do the dip thing. I think that getting the sequence right will be the key...

maybe, dip, let dry, put gc on, push thru sizer, see how the boolit looks after that.

I really don't like lube on the gc.... maybe it won't affect the powder, but I just have visions of loaded cartridges sitting there, with the lube soaking into the powder...

maybe I think too much.

[Ricochet]

Oh yeah, you can size 'em months later and stuff will transfer off the boolit noses to the cavity in the seating punch. It's true of any hard waxy lube as well, not just LLA. If it's on the nose, it'll clog the die. I think you guys that haven't seen it just haven't been paying attention.

[USARO4]

PatMarlin, try cleaning out the seating die with a Q-tip soaked in Ronsonol lighter fluid, it dissolves the lube very quickley.

[454PB]

If I'm going to size them, I use something other than LLA as a sizing lube. I use the same stuff that I use as swaging and case sizing lube, which is boot waterproofing. This stuff works as well as Imperial Sizing Wax or Hornady Unique, but comes in a 3 ounce tub and costs $2. I smear a little on every fourth or fifth boolit, then size and tumble lube. It's much cleaner than using the LLA as a sizing lube.

I suspect the boot waterproofing is mostly lanolin, because it smells nice and even softens your skin. It wipes off both your hands and the boolits or brass easily, no water or solvents required. Since I've been using it, I've never dented a case nor had anything stick....even when swaging jacketed bullets.

[PatMarlin]

Yes, RD, I use mainly Lee dies. The problem comes with wax or Alox getting trapped in the hollow cavity in the end of the seating plug, filling it and pressing the boolit in progressively deeper in the cases as it builds up. It definitely won't flow around the boolit! It just has to be cleaned out. I unscrew the die and dig it out with a little screwdriver.

The buildup on the Factory Crimp Dies looks nasty, but affects nothing functionally.

That was my main problem with LLA. I kept getting inconsistent OAL's. Cleaning was not a problem just having to do it often. Probably using it a little to thick and too much like RD said. I bought some mica to try but never have as yet.

I really like my Lyman 45 lube sizers, but hey- I've got a bunch of LLA, and I won't hesitate to use it for an accurate firearm load. Just not for everything.

[mroliver77]

I used to really slather the boolits up good with LLA. It sometimes took a week for them to dry. "sigh". After being set straight about it I started thinning it and using a very thin coat. This works well but I hate trying to stand all the boolits up on wax paper. The boolits I had with gobs of the stuff on I added some mineral spirits and lwft set covered overnight. I then added new boolits and tumbled until I had the desired coating on all. I still cannot understand how tumble lubing is considered fast. Standing them all up is a pain for me. I usually managed to knock them over a couple times too. The Star sizer wades through piles of boolits in no time! There is a fellow at gunshow that sells cast bullets at a very resonable price. Willbird and I have tried them and get lots of leading. I asked what alloy he uses and "HARD" is all he can say. He also sizes .38 to .357 and .30 to .308 etc. Nice looking bullets too and very HARD!! Buy garsh do they lead.To use up the few K that I had I tumbled in LLA and it helped. A friend had his Security Six all leaded up and asked me how to clean it. I fitted My boollit in MY alloy with FWFL and fired a cylindr full. Barrel was sparkly clean! I told him it was the Felix lubes magical qualities. There are a couple aplications where I will try Ranch Dogs Dipping aplication. I thought mebbe after it is dry apply a coat of Johnson Paste wax to seal it with a harder coating. Or just dump it all in the Star............

[PatMarlin]

I haven't got to use my R-dog mold yet, but first off I'm going to lube them through my old lymans with either speed green, LBT blue soft, or Lar's.

Done that with great sucess on other tumble lube boolits.

[Lloyd Smale]

ill probaly try that myself but its kind of a pain on the star. Usually takes to passes to get all teh groves but i guess its still faster then one pass through a lyman.
I haven't got to use my R-dog mold yet, but first off I'm going to lube them through my old lymans with either speed green, LBT blue soft, or Lar's.

Done that with great sucess on other tumble lube boolits.

[Lead melter]

Well, I'll add another fly to the Alox.
I have found I get the best accuracy with LLA by using a slightly different method.

1. LLA comes in a 4 ounce bottle. I always keep an empty around, so I dump 1 ounce into the empty bottle and add 1 ounce mineral spirits to the 3 ounces LLA. I now have a very thin LLA with which to work.

3. Pour cast boolits into an old butter dish, add thinned LLA to this just to get a thin sheen of lube on the boolits, dump on waxed paper and allow to dry overnight.

3. Attach and seat gas checks if needed, add another light coat of LLA, dry overnight.

4. Add yet a third coat of LLA, then allow to dry. This results in a nice, even coat of LLA over all the boolits without too much gummy mess on the sizer or the seater.

5. And yes, I save the dried stuff for reuse just like Ranch Dog.

May not be the best way, but it works for me.

[Ranch Dog]

ranch dog i just ordered one of your molds for the first time and reading this i have a few questions. First i got the sizer too. Do you find that you usually get better accuracy with the ranch dog bullets sizing the bullet to true it up or unsized or is it just pot luck depending on the gun or are you just using the sizer to seat the gas check and spec out a sizer that doesnt size your bullets much.]. Second do i understand correctly that you lube then size and then just shoot them. Ive allways lubed sized then lubed again when using tumble lube. Is this a waste of time. I guess i allways did it becasuse i never had that good of luck with tumble lube and figured a little more would be better. Also i see you dip your bullets. Any advantage to that over shaking them in a bowl other then keeping the lube off then noses to keep the mess down. The only thing i tumble lube anymore is 38 special bullets and sure wouldnt want to hastle with dipping them. I shot just to many of them but i guess I could do it with the 4570s if theres any advantage to it.

I'm sorry that I missed this Lloyd, I've been spending this week shooting pressure trace data... 300 bullets out the barrel in the last two days! I will get back to your questions, but let me list my "process" again.


I cut a new bottle of Alox by filling the airspace in the bottle with mineral spirits. I warm the Alox in hot water. I do use bulk Alox from Lar45 but thin it accordingly.
Very, very light tumble lube. The bullets are just "tacky" with the Alox. If the bullets are "wet", add more bullets to your bowl.
Set them out to dry on their base. Drying time varies but this light coat will set up in about an hour.
Install the gas checks.
Dip them, base first and deep enough to cover all the Micro-Bands.
Set them out to dry on their base. Drying time on this coat will take about 2 to 4 hours depending on the temperature and humidity.
Size and seat the gas checks with a Ranch Dog Sizer.


I usually complete all my molding, lubing and sizing in a day. I know that the lubesizer guys say tumble lubing takes too long but I disagree. I normally cast about 500 to 600 bullets at a time. The first lube step is done in less than thirty minutes and the second lube step takes about hour. Casting and installing the gas checks is what takes time and that is common to either method of lubing. I use the two drying periods to do other things. I don't know how it could be any easier.

If you are shooting a RD bullet out of a Marlin, the pass through the sizing die is simply to "true" up the bullet and seat the gas check. I cannot comment on other firearms and their bullet needs. Alloy and casting temperature will effect the final bullet diameter but the RD bullet should be at the target diameter after the pass through the die.

You should not have a mess, even on the bullet nose, if you follow the steps above. The tumble lube step should leave a film, not a coat. The dip is thick but it should never get too the crimp groove. The sizing die will clean it off the bullet. By following these steps I have never had Alox foul my bullet seating die. I collect a little bit in my Factory Crimp die but even that is a minuscule amount. I've loaded 400 bullets in the last three days and FCD doesn't have enough lube collected in it to lube one bullet. I have always wiped my loaded cases off, even prior to being a caster, to remove all the case lube or anything that might have been picked up in the loading process. I'm not sure what the big deal is in cleaning off a case even if you make a mess.

[Cayoot]

So Ranch Dog, are saying that you DON'T apply any alox AFTER sizing?:confused:

I thought that the sizing process removes most of the lube that is in position to be effective (on the driving bands as opposed to in the lube groves-because LLA does not migrate well out of the lube grooves.)

Wow! This is a radical departure from the way I was taught and have read about using LLA!

However, if this is the way that you do it and you get no leading....WOW!!!!

I'm gonna have to try changing my ways!

[Ricochet]

Michael, how are you holding your boolits to dip them? It's a little tricky with short ogives to hang onto them.

[hornetguy]

REAL men don't have long fingernails.....[smilie=1:

[Ranch Dog]

REAL men don't have long fingernails.....[smilie=1:

Good one! Real men have short ones and they don't care if the have Alox under them :drinks:


Rico... I'm only working with my bullets and the Lee TL452-230-RF. That later bullet and my TLC432-265-RF has a very short nose, I use pliers, forceps, a "grabber", or any other handy tool that will grab the nose. I have a small Sears Robo-Grip plier that I like the best. In that they are spring loaded, the grab, dip and let-go is fast.

I got to get shooting, but here are some pictures for your consideration...

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/images/Casting/Alox_Buildup.jpg
Let's start with the bullet. This is a my 300-grain 444 bullet that went through my lube process detailed above. It is a sample out of a bin of about 300. The wax build up on the nose is from the wax buildup at the entry to the sizing die (bottom). As you can see, the bullet body is pretty clean. I do not lube again, and seat it in the case just as it is. I pulled the seating stem out of my seating die and you can see the build up on it. This stem has seated at least 5000 TL bullets without being cleaned. I'm sure it has not be disassembled for at least 5 years. There is a little crud outside the contact area, but it will eventually dry up and fall off. The contact area (a rim just inside the outside edge) is bright simply because steel making contact with lead will displace the wax. It will flow. Honestly, I'm going to reassemble it just like it is as I need ammo now for my pressure trace testing. When I pulled this apart, I really thought it would have a lot more buildup. After I seat this bullet and in that it is going to get shot today, the nose will quickly be cleaning with a rag and mineral spirits. If it was going to storage, I'd leave it like it is.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/images/Casting/375_Wax_Star.jpg
Here is the Alox star on my Marlin 375 after shooting my TLC379-235-RF. This bullet has the least volume of wax of any of my designs... .03 CCs. By comparison, the TLC432-300-RF has .045 CCs. This is the star produced after some max load trace testing of the bullet... 2100 FPS at 54.5K PSI! I won't offer load data at that level but the Alox hung in there and the groups were outstanding.

[Lloyd Smale]

Lookiing at what your doing it seems that conventional lube sizing that bullet would give simular results if the lube was good. Looks like it has plenty of lube capasity. Basicaly its the same results youd get if you pan lubed and sized it. have you actually done testing to see if the first thin coat is helping at all?

[Ranch Dog]

Lloyd...

I think of the first coat doing two things: It provides lube on the bullet at the area that will contact the sizing die. As the second coat applied through the dip, I believe it helps fill the the lube grooves. This material is very found of itself.

I've tried dipping the first coat and it just doesn't fill the grooves any better than the light tumble. It uses a much wax as the last coat but you still must apply that second coat.

[Ricochet]

Thanks, Michael!

I'm going to have to look around for something to grab the boolits with without damaging them.

(And of course I wasn't admitting to having a short ogive myself!)

[Lloyd Smale]

that second coat grabbing on to the first makes sense. Im going to have to give serious time to experimenting with that bullet when it gets here. It would be neat to actually run it like you recomend and run it sized and lubed in a star using my own lube to see which works better. Ive never been a fan on tumble lubing but may with your method and fillng out the lube groves it would take the velocitys that everyone preaches they get that i never came close to. Cant see why it wouldnt. it looks like your design carrys enough lube and straight allow should do at least as well as something like nra fourmula that is nothing but alox cut with beeswax. I also made up a batch of felix lube that i replaced half the beeswax with the alox that used for tumble lube and a couple more variations of felix made with alox. . What might me a good experiment is to tumble lube a light coat of normal tumble wax and then pan lube them in that expermentle wax. My thoughts with that lube was to try to come up with a hard lube that would actually lube and hold up a little better in a long rifle barrel then normal 5050 does. another thought i had was it may possibly work as a conventional harder lube and also still be able to be used as a tumble lube by heating it or thinning it with mineral spirits. With all the back problems ive had lately i havent been able to even shoot let alone test though but hopefully they will get me fixed up soon and i can get back on it.

[Ranch Dog]

Lloyd...

I hope you get to feeling better and can get out and do some of this shooting!

For the record, the Marlins I have been shooting these bullets in have had nothing special done to them, they are just as they were purchased. I only have one lapped rifle, my 444P, and I shoot it very little. I just make sure the copper is removed from the barrel and have at it.

[Ranch Dog]

Hey fellows,

My trial molds for the TLC359-190-RF arrived so I was anxious to cast! I thought I would also go ahead and time the various steps to see just how long the process takes. Not that any of this is a timed event , as I normally won't even start casting if I'm pressed for time as I make too many mistakes.

Again here are my steps in applying the Alox: First, extremely light tumbled coat of Alox Install the gas checks Alox dip coat Pass through sizer

I had cast 425 bullets, here is what each operation took: #1 :31 #2 1:10 #3 :49 #4 :39

Installing the gas checks is common to any application (:18/100) so here is what the time looks like per/100 bullets (times above divided by 4): #1 :08 #3 :12 #4 :10 For any comparison purposes, the total time involved in appling two coats of Alox and seating the checks while sizing the bullets with the Lee sizer would be about :30/100. Again, this wasn't a horse race. I enjoy this work or I would be out buying jacketed bullets. Your times might vary. I took several phone calls, talked with my wife, petted the dog, etc. while timing these events.

The first coat dried two hours and the second coat 4 hours. I completed my entire casting event in one day (I didn't time the casting). I hope you don't mind some pictures...

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/images/Casting/Alox01.jpg
First coat has been squirted on the bullet. Notice that it is so little you can barely see it.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/images/Casting/Alox02.jpg
This picture is to emphasis just how little Alox should be used on that first coat. The wax residue in the middle of the sheet of paper is where I've dumped 425 bullets in 31 minutes. That spot is tacky, not wet. I've used very little Alox at this point.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/images/Casting/Alox03.jpg
For the second and final coat, I use Alox that I purchased through Lar45's LsStuff (http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/liquid-x.html) who is a member here on Cast Boolits. I use it because of the volume of Alox I consume. It is no different than that purchased through Lee Precision. The 32 oz. bottle is heating up in a sink of hot water to make it flow better.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/images/Casting/Alox04.jpg
The small "Jell-O" bowl I use for the dip.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/images/Casting/Alox05.jpg
The bullets have been dipped and now are sitting on their base. This bullet has enough nose that I could grap it with my fingers; no tools needed. The Alox is flowing off the bullets onto the paper but it will be recovered.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/images/Casting/Alox06.jpg
It has taken me 49 minutes to dip all 425 bullets. I have picked the first dipped bullet up for this photo. The Alox has set up and formed it's coat around the base of the bullet. The bullet base is actually pretty free of Alox from resting on the paper.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/images/Casting/Alox07.jpg
I've gone ahead and moved the bullets out of the rows so that I can recover the Alox. The bullets will dry four hours in this position. Notice the excess Alox on the paper.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/images/Casting/Alox08.jpg

[Ranch Dog]

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/images/Casting/Alox08.jpg
I've started to recover the Alox and let it flow back into the bottle. I use a putty knife to scrape up the row of excess Alox.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/images/Casting/Alox09.jpg
Notice the paper. Every bit of the excess Alox has been recovered. I used two Jello-O cups (4 oz. ea.) of Alox to dip these 425 bullets and returned one cup!

[Cayoot]

This is great RD!!! I'm learning lots (like every time I come on this board).

About recapturing the Alox, do you reconstitute it some how or just throw the dried remnents back into the container with the (still liquid) stuff?

[jeff223]

OUTSTANDING Michael :drinks:
im going to start lubing up my 35 caliber Ranch Dog boolits just like what you showed in the pictures.i never knew you could reclaim the alox on the paper

i bet your going to like those 35s Michael,they are wonderful shooting boolits.i wont waste my time or lead on any other design boolit.RANCH DOGS are #1 :cbpour:

awsome pistures :mrgreen:

[Ranch Dog]

If the Alox will flow back into the bottle, I let it. If it doesn't, it gets cut with mineral spirits until it does.

[randyrat]

Lube after cast and cool, size while lube is still wet.... Lube again let dry over night minimum. I've never had a major problem with any of my seating dies building up lube and i check OAL regularly... Possibly using too much.. Or i'm just not paying attention:kidding::kidding: I gotta take a good look inside my seating dies and see if there is some buildup of snot.. I never worried about it because i never have to change my seat depth.

[Cayoot]

If the Alox will flow back into the bottle, I let it. If it doesn't, it gets cut with mineral spirits until it does.

I'm talking about the dried up alox that you scrap off the wax paper with a putty knife. Do you just drop the pieces back in the alox container with the liquid stuff, or do you find a way to (re)liquify the dried up alox before you put it back in the bottle?

Thanks

Bary

[Ranch Dog]

I'm talking about the dried up alox that you scrap off the wax paper with a putty knife. Do you just drop the pieces back in the alox container with the liquid stuff, or do you find a way to (re)liquify the dried up alox before you put it back in the bottle?

Barry,

As soon as I finish that second coat, I start picking the bullets up and move them aside to dry. That is what I'm scraping up with the putty knife. It is still very wet.

When I come back after the drying period and pickup the bullets for sizing, I actually wipe the wax paper off with a rag. The Alox is more of a solid but the rag will pick it up. I keep these rags in a container and use them not only in my reloading room but in my home, barn and out on the ranch... anywhere a corrosion fighter/lube is needed. The rags are old athletic socks.

[WyrTwister]

I used to really slather the boolits up good with LLA. It sometimes took a week for them to dry. "sigh". After being set straight about it I started thinning it and using a very thin coat. This works well but I hate trying to stand all the boolits up on wax paper. The boolits I had with gobs of the stuff on I added some mineral spirits and lwft set covered overnight. I then added new boolits and tumbled until I had the desired coating on all. I still cannot understand how tumble lubing is considered fast. Standing them all up is a pain for me. I usually managed to knock them over a couple times too. The Star sizer wades through piles of boolits in no time! There is a fellow at gunshow that sells cast bullets at a very resonable price. Willbird and I have tried them and get lots of leading. I asked what alloy he uses and "HARD" is all he can say. He also sizes .38 to .357 and .30 to .308 etc. Nice looking bullets too and very HARD!! Buy garsh do they lead.To use up the few K that I had I tumbled in LLA and it helped. A friend had his Security Six all leaded up and asked me how to clean it. I fitted My boollit in MY alloy with FWFL and fired a cylindr full. Barrel was sparkly clean! I told him it was the Felix lubes magical qualities. There are a couple aplications where I will try Ranch Dogs Dipping aplication. I thought mebbe after it is dry apply a coat of Johnson Paste wax to seal it with a harder coating. Or just dump it all in the Star............



When I first started , I would stand the bullets on there little bottoms , after I tumble lubed them with LLA .

Being lazy , rightly or wrongly , I just pour them out on a walley world sack , that I spread out on the floor . Put a box fan on the floor , blowing on them , to accelerate the " curing " process ( LLA seems to never really dry ) .

The last batch I tried last nite , I uses Johnson Paste Wax on 7 batches of different kinds of bullets . Seven wally world sacks on the floor " drying " , with the fan blowing on them .

The JPW has a different stink than LLA , but it still stinks .

My reloading room / computer room is a concerted single car garage . So the stink is some what of an issue . As long as I make a good faith effort to minimize / contain it , the wife does not say much . I try not to do this very often .

I live in a dusty climate ( at least part of the year it is dusty ) . So leaving them outside to " dry " , un-attended , is not a good option .

God bless
Wyr

[WyrTwister]

I've started to recover the Alox and let it flow back into the bottle. I use a putty knife to scrape up the row of excess Alox.


Notice the paper. Every bit of the excess Alox has been recovered. I used two Jello-O cups (4 oz. ea.) of Alox to dip these 425 bullets and returned one cup!

How do the results of dipping compare to just a second tumble lubing ?

God bless
Wyr

[guninhand]

I can't believe this thread has gone this far without someone mentioning that they dip the lubed bullets in mica to stop unwanted stickiness/gumming-up.

[DLCTEX]

For those of us who are not so frugal as to scrape up the runoff Alox lube, maybe diluting it and returning it to the bottle, White label Lube has it in 32 oz. for 9.50 and 9.80 shipping for up to 5 bottles. I have no monetary interest in this company, it beats Lee's price by a mile. DALE

[Old Ironsights]

Good stuff RD! Thanks!

[Ranch Dog]

How do the results of dipping compare to just a second tumble lubing ?

God bless
Wyr

WyrTwister,

The second tumble would continue the build up of lube on the nose of the bullet and sometimes requires a third tumble to fill the grooves completely like the "dip" does.

[Ranch Dog]

I can't believe this thread has gone this far without someone mentioning that they dip the lubed bullets in mica to stop unwanted stickiness/gumming-up.

I finally have purchased some mica to give it a try. Most of the bullets I cast doen't sit around very long before they end their life in my target berms.

[chuebner]

I tried the mica trick and it worked, but mica is expensive and I read somewhere that the dust could cause respiratory problems if inhaled. Now I use grocery store baby powder and sprinkle a little over the tumble lubed boolits in a quart freezer bag before transferring to a storage container. The baby powder eliminates stickiness and lube buildup in my seating die stems. A pint container for $1.49 will dust a lot of boolits.

Charlie

[azcoyhunter]

I like the idea of baby powder, I think I will try it.

Do you think they will store good with baby powder on them?

The most I ever store a cast boolit, is about 2 weeks.

Clint

[LET-CA]

SNIP . . Now I use grocery store baby powder and sprinkle a little over the tumble lubed boolits in a quart freezer bag before transferring to a storage container. The baby powder eliminates stickiness and lube buildup in my seating die stems. . . SNIP

Somehow the smell of baby powder at the firing line just doesn't seem right. I've come to expect certain smells when I'm shooting and baby-fresh talcum isn't anywhere near the top of the list! :mrgreen:

[dromia]

Cornflour!

[HORNET]

I have to concede that some of the groups that I've shot resemble SOMETHING found if a baby's diaper, but I don't think it's the baby powder............

[shotman]

guys i have used the Lee for several years have yet to clean a seating die try this it works for me keep boolets cool [around 65 70 f ] heat the lee lube to around 110 f put boolets in a jar [ i use a peanut butter plastic jar] just enough lube to cover [about 2 tsp per 200] shake for 5 min everything should be coated dump out on wax paper and stand each up on base let sit for 2 days to dry in a 60 to 70 f area[basement is where i load] there will not be much on bottom because of the wax paper amd most will run off of boolet to form a ring at base this will stay on wax paper the groves will retain enough and the rest will be forced in on loading have lubed thousands that way with no problem try it youal like it rick

[jameslovesjammie]

Ranch Dog,

I know your bullets all have the tumble lube design, but have you ever used your dipping process on a bullet of a non t/l design?

[Ranch Dog]

Ranch Dog,

I know your bullets all have the tumble lube design, but have you ever used your dipping process on a bullet of a non t/l design?

Sorry for the delay responding, too much ranch work here.

Yes I have, works pretty good. I just lubed a bunch of Dr. A's MM bullets to run through my 1895G. Worked very well.

[Crash_Corrigan]

Great stuff. Put the lubed boolits into a container and add a spoonful and swish 'em around. Works on LLA and lubrized boolits as well. Keeps 'em nice and easy to handle and the corn starch does not mess up the dies or the press. Save the container after you dump out the boolits and use it again. After a while you will not have to add any corn starch as the remaining from the previous uses stays in the bottom. Cheap and easy.

[woodsoup]

Corn starch, May be OK.
Baby powder and mica are abrasive.
Put some on a damp rag and rub on your cars hood.
You'll not be using those in your barrels anymore (your local auto detailer will love the business though).

[Old Ironsights]

Well, I just got done sizing all the 457122s I dip-lubed... I'll have to take some pics, but it seemed to work OK.... except that I kept dropping the fool boolets into the LLA and filling up the HP. :(

I guess I'm just too fumble-fingered.

[Ricochet]

It's tricky dip lubing, especially once you get a bit of lube on your fingers.

[Old Ironsights]

The good, the bad, the large and the FUGLY....

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_5502.jpg

457122, 405 encapsulated, 450 and the Mega Whomper 600gr

[leftiye]

I made a pair of srpinging tweezers out of a coat hanger. They have sharp points to grip the boolit ogive for dipping. A pair of needle nose pliers bent in and pointed might work better, as the wire things will flip sideways if you don't do your part just right.

[bc3660]

Yes, mineral spirits is the stuff it comes dissolved in.

Acetone works better. This stuff is millitary "Grade 4" anti rust compound. "CPC"

[exile]

This may be slightly off topic, but do you guys use the Lee tumble lube kit, and if so, how does it work? Does it work well? Or are you all using a different sizer with Lee tumble lube bullets? How are the bullets pushed through the Lee sizer? I ask these questions because I am trying to decide what to buy and what method is cheapest and best for a beginning reloader on a budget. I would like to eventually get a sizer but if I could load Lee tumble lube 148 grain wadcutters without one for awhile I would like to. Sorry if this is somewhat confusing.

[725]

exile,
I use a Lyman 450 and have never used a Lee luber. I have only heard good things about them, however. One nice feature is that the Lee pushes the boolit base through the die and captures it in a collection jar. You can't beat the price, either. As far as to size or not to size, that would depend on the slugged measurement of your bore and the cast measuement of your boolit. As long as there is a reasonable tolerence between the two, you're good to go. Lots of boolits are cast and shot without sizing. Sizing does allow more consistant performance for some and less leading in some cases.
One of the highly respected guys around here is ranchdog. He runs a specialty mould business and he uses Lee sizers. Hard to get a better recomendation than that.
725

[miestro_jerry]

I really like the Ranch Dog bullets, I have been using his Lee Sizers with Alox on his bullets over the last week or so. Great combination, but Michael does recommend Mica as a powder on the finished bullets.

I am not completely sold of the Lee TL system, but I am coming around to it. I still made a lot of bullets that go thru my Star sizer.

Jerry

[exile]

Good recommendations. Thanks. I guess I will go that way until I can afford other equipment.

[Ranch Dog]

Another addition I've made to my "system" is using a cooking sheet that is made of some type of plastic/nylon that has one side that is a bit rough and the other is slicker than snot. I use the slick side to place my bullets on. The sheet makes it a lot easier to recover all the Alox that comes off the bullet and the sheet is easy to clean/store for future use.

[TexasJeff]

This may be slightly off topic, but do you guys use the Lee tumble lube kit, and if so, how does it work? Does it work well?

I started off with the Lee sizing/lubing kits and still use them. In fact, not sure but what I actually prefer them now. You'll read a lot of comments here, and you'll be surprised at the number of boolit casters who lube in a variety of ways.

Started off with just the straight LLA and had no problems other than a bit of smoke and more soot on the gun than I was used to. But for the ease, accuracy and cost, that extra three minutes of wiping the gun down during the cleaning was a non-factor.

Then I tried something that made all the difference--Johnson's Paste Wax.

Now I simply cook a little bit of JPW on a hot plate to "cook off" the solvents and leave mainly the carnuba. I mix that with a pre-heated amount of LLA in about a 60% LLA / 40% JPW mix, then add just a smidgen of odorless mineral spirits and shake extremely well, then set on the shelf for a day or so.

I use this formula twice for each boolit. I'll do a light lubing, let the boolits dry, then run them through the (Lee) sizer. After sizing, I do a normal lubing, let them dry, and then load them.

I now get virtually no smoke, no more soot on the gun than I do with LubeAMatic sized/lubed boolits, a shiny bore, and outstanding accuracy. No leading whatsoever.


Or are you all using a different sizer with Lee tumble lube bullets? How are the bullets pushed through the Lee sizer? I would like to eventually get a sizer but if I could load Lee tumble lube 148 grain wadcutters without one for awhile I would like to. Sorry if this is somewhat confusing.

I love the Lee sizers. They are easier and faster than the RCBS and Lyman lube/sizers, don't require top punches, and to change calibers takes only as long as it takes to unscrew the sizer from your presss and screw in a new one.

The sizers look much like a die. They come with a "seating plug" (for lack of a better word) that snaps into your shell plate holder on the ram. You set your boolit on this, base first, and then raise the ram to push the bullet through the sizer where it is swaged to size.

The round, red plastic container sits on top of the sizer and catches the boolits as they come out of the sizer.

My first boolits ever cast were Lee.358 148 WC with regular lube grooves. I tumble-lubed these, and this is what the first batch shot like--

http://usera.imagecave.com/jdkinman/148WCMyCast6shotsLoRes.jpg

So go for it, enjoy, learn along the way and enjoy the journey.

Jeff

[Ricochet]

JPW is mainly paraffin, with a whiff of carnauba.

[exile]

Wow! A picture truly is worth a thousand words. Now I wonder if I should get the regular Lee wadcutter mold rather than the tumble lube one. I recently bought a Smith and Wesson 686 with a five inch barrel and a non-fluted cylinder that I really want to try with bullets I have cast rather than commercially cast ones.

I thought reloading was an intricate and involved undertaking, but bullet casting seems much more so. I am waiting on a copy of "Cast Bullets" by E.H. Harrison from the local library. So much to learn! Glad I found this website.

[Three44s]

There is no easier way to break into bullet casting than with the Lee microgrooved bullet.

I apply two apps of LLA (thinned with mineral spirits with the LLA drizzled sparringly into a margarin dish and the bullets swirreled around until I get complete coverage). I dry them for 24 hours with them sitting base down on wax paper.

And for plinking purposes........ I load and shoot them "as cast" ...... no sizing.

Cheap, easy plinkers ........... six gang molds where available speed up the casting process.

And when I care to ..... I treat the bullets after the final lubing with motor mica.

And on wilder days .... I have even tried powdered moly between LLA apps.

VIVA LOCA!


Three 44s

[Fish_N_Russ]

powdered moly eh, hmmm theres an idea :)
might have to try that

[Silvertip 44]

Should I thin my LLA with mineral spirits and then tumble them with a thin coat before sizing? How much mineral spirits should I use or is that just trial and error? I've been thinking about the dipping as well since I have read these threads. I hate the sticky bullet and messy reload I get from double tumbling.
I have fumble finger dropped a few rounds at the range and it seems like a pound of dirt will stick to them.

[shotman]

try this --it works for me---heat the lube in hot water[around 160#] it is real thin. I use a plastic peanut butter jar . PUT around a 100 in the jar and about 1 teaspoon of lube. It dont take very much when its hot.Shake till coated ,dump on wax paper let air dry over night. I add powdered moly to mine but you can do it with out it. I can carry 45s in my pocket and they are not sticky unless the temp is high shotman/rick

[Lucky Joe]

I made a pair of srpinging tweezers out of a coat hanger. They have sharp points to grip the boolit ogive for dipping. A pair of needle nose pliers bent in and pointed might work better, as the wire things will flip sideways if you don't do your part just right.


I use LLA for 90% of my lube and must be one of the lucky ones, even so I found a lot of good information in this thread. I want to show how I handle boolits with out having to touch them (short finger nails) or try to configure a pair of pliers or tweezers. I took a 6" spike available at any good hardware and in my town you can buy 1 or 1000. Next I went out in my farm shop and found enough different kinds of tubing to fit any kind of boolit I cast. You should be able to find the tubing again at any hardware or auto store or go to a auto repair garage should not be hard to find. The tube in the picture is about 5 3/4" long.

The boolit in the picture is a .45 and the picture should be self explanatory, just slip the tube over the nose, use your thumb to push it out. I like to make things work, this is quick to make and use also inexpensive.
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k168/Luckyjoe_01/Lubingtube.jpg

I hope this helps someone.:)

[dromia]

Lucky Joe, I doff my cap to you sir. :idea:

That is one neat and simple approach. :-D

[Ricochet]

Oh yeah, that's smart!

[Lucky Joe]

Lucky Joe, I doff my cap to you sir. :idea:

That is one neat and simple approach. :-D

Thanks fellas remember "There's always a way".

Doff gratefully and humbly accepted. Glad I could contribute.

[chuebner]

Gotta love the K.I.S.S. method.

charlie

[watkibe]

I always use LLA now, but it took some learning (what doesn't ?). I don't know at what temp it melts, but I have tried to soften it back up once it has hardened by using the microwave, and I wouldn't call it a success. The stuff sticks inside the tub I use to tumble the bullets in. Being thrifty, I thought there had to be a way to use the lube that sticks there. I nuked it on high for several minutes, and then tumble lubed some bullets. The LLA got tacky, and did stick to my bullets. In fact, too much stuck to the bullets, which made loading a pain. It kept accumulating inside the seating die and seating bullets deeper and deeper. I had to clean the die (brake cleaner works great !) several times. Then, I had to wipe off the exposed noses of the loaded bullets to keep lube from getting all over me and my rifle. The re-heated lube never seemed to really dry. Now I don't try to reclaim the small anount left in the tub. Like many things in reloading, being too cheap ends up costing you. I have learned the trick is to lube lightly, and let it dry thoroughly. Lee TL (tumble lube) bullets seem to work best due to the many lube grooves. Sizing removes the lube from the driving bands, and the lube on the nose never touches the bore, so it doesn't lube anything at all. Conventional bullets work as long as they have several lube grooves.

[mooman76]

I use the same tube over. It's a margerine tub and I put the lid on to keep clean. Then when I do the next batch it mixes with the new batch so I'm not really waisting none. If you want to avoild lubing the whole bullet pu a small amount on a piece of wax paper and roll it back and forth with something like a ruler, then pick up and set on the base to dry. I've been kind of switching to JPW. Less messy and seems to work as well.

[44mag1]

I use a plastic sandwich baggie to lube when I use LLA. This way I can smoosh it all over with my hands then I just throw the baggie away.

[looseprojectile]

to read all the posts on LLA. Normally instant gratification is not quick enough for me. Some of you are on the right track and others are trying to make things too dificult. This example is with Ranch Dog 265 .44 boolits.
I have had perfect results, no leading and great accuracy using this method. The bore looks as though I just cleaned it! Twenty grains of H110. .44 Mag.
Using WW + 10 - 20 percent lino. The boolits are in a pile on the towel that I drop them on. I put on the check and size them dry in the Lee sizer. If I find that it is taking a lot of effort to size them I give the pile of boolits a spray or two of Oneshot case lube.
I have thined the LLA to the consistency of Half & Half such as you put in your coffee. Pour about a hundred in a baggie along with a couple of teaspoons of LLA.
Massage for a minute, pour them onto a paper on a cookie sheet. Stand them up on their bases. You should only have to wipe off two fingers.
This is the technical part. Using the HEAT gun,[ like a hair dryer on steroids], heat the boolits till you can't hold them, probably 300 - 400 degrees. When they are cool enough to handle, a fan helps here, knock them over on their sides and pour them into a tub. Add a tablespoon of paste wax. I use a thin plastic tray that gets soft when I apply the heat. This softness facilitates the rolling around of the boolits while heating them. Heat till they start to smoke.
pour them out on the cookie sheet. Cool and load. I do about a hundred at a time. Takes about 45 minutes after the boolits are cast.

[rayfil]

I realize not PC but in past filled 357 barrels with mercury when I pushed too hard. Works fine with no wear and tear on barrel. Just dump mercury back in jar and push patch through bore once. Bright and clean.

[TAWILDCATT]

DID NONE OF YOU SEE THE PICTURE lee has of heating the lubed bullet,and the bullet melted before the tumble lube.
Me I just tumble and leave over night,load and shoot.dont you think the barrel sizes them??at the speed 1690 fps they dont need gas checks.:coffee:[smilie=1:

[looseprojectile]

In the past I have had to clean lead out of my bores. Mercury is good for that.
Since using LLA and JPW. even on regular grease groove boolits I have completely eliminated that chore. I am still amazed at how clean the bores are after what used to be bore leading velocities with cast.
I keep a five pound jar of mercury on hand, though don't use it much anymore.
Maybe I'll go gold mining one of these days.
In the past year or so I have converted nearly totally to liquid alox for all my cast boolits. I now use Ranch Dog moulds in .45 rifle .44 rifle and pistol and .35 in the rifle. Also use the .50 caliber in the S&W big gun. R.D. got it right.

Life is good

[KennethF]

I have not been around long enough to be familiar with the various abreviations used here on the forum. Can someone please help me out by listing abreviations and their meanings?

Thanks KennethF

[Patrick L]

Kenneth,

Lee Liquid Alox and Johnson's Paste Wax

[watkibe]

I tried the JPW with my LLA for the first time today, after reading about it here. The wax seemed to thin the LLA a little, but it stuck to the bullets quite well. I also tried something else for the first time that I learned here, after tumble-lubing, I stood the bullets on end on the waxpaper-covered cookie sheet. I gave myself a little "DUH!" that I didn't think of it before...but it eliminates the uneven side to side lube I had before. I don't know how it's going to work, so many variables here : new lube, new rifle, new mold, no sizing die yet, and no gas checks. The worst day shooting beats the best day working though...

[pls1911]

Life is simple and good: Thin with mnineral spirits 25-30% LLA or LARS lube, lube (once) as cast, load shoot...That's it.

For .45 colt and ACP, (and any .38s) up to 900fps over a load of Unique it's the only thing in life that at once easy, cheap, and fast...and NO leading in Smith and Ruger revolvers, Colt, Springfield or Auto Ordinance.

Same for 45-70 in 300-340 grain boolits of RCBS, Lee, or Ranch Dog designs up to 1200-1300FPS pushed by "about"14 grains Unique in Marlins, NEF's, or various Pedersolis, especially with a dacron wad. Very accurate to 100 yards, NO leading and a beautiful bore.

In the brush where I slip up on pigs you rarely see more than 30 yards, and with pistols I hunt from bow blinds.

All pigs and deer hit with the above .45 caliber loads are very dead right now, and the loads won't contribute to detatched retinas and sore shoulders or wrists.

Granted, for target work work at longer ranges more care is required to get your desired accuracy, but for "minute of pig" accuracy at my ranges, these can't be beat for speed simplicity, plain functionality. No Need for speed when low and slow works fine.

Fort Worth

[Estacado]

This place is just full of information. Thanks

[BUFFALOW RED]

This place is just full of information. Thanks
I will be casting .312 for 303British ,WW + 5percent atioemy (spelling not my strong side) Lee TL mold .Plan to try the LLA and JPW mix any one tryed this at 2100+ FPS

[Krag 1901]

You guys are soooooo picky! I use LLA exclusively, Put a hand full of boolets in a butter cup and drop on a few drops of LLA and swirl around for a while. Dump on a saran wrap sheet and let dry outside for "over Night". I don't bother standing them up, just make sure they are separated. Size and check then once again into the butter cup with a few drops of LLA and back on to the saran wrap sheet. I get no r little leading even in my 100 year old pitted Krag barrel. LLA works better warmed slightly. In the summer i just put the tube out in the sun for an hour and have at it. In winter I warm in the microwave for 15 sec at a time, otherwise you can melt the bottle. Hot water works too.
When I first started, I was using too much and talked to a guy at the range who used a lot less and cut back on my usage a lot and still had good luck.