Need help with Lee 40 S&W 145 grain

[igolfat8]

The boolits dropped at .402". The barrel in my Gen 4 Glock 35 slugged at .400". I loaded them, as dropped @ .402" without running through a sizing die, to an OAL of 1.135". I found that the bullets are not seated deep enough and dislodge easily from the case when chambering the second round.

I brought the rest of the rounds home which I had planned to shoot and seated a few to an OAL at 1.110". I pulled the bullets with an inertia puller and measured the OD and its .400" BEFORE the crimp die and .399" AFTER the crimp die with hardly any crimp.

I am hesitant to shoot these being undersized after pulling a few from the cases. Any ideas or suggestions?

[Tatume]

My concern would be with the lack of tension. Why are your bullets loose in the cases? What is the diameter of the stem in your sizing die? What dies are you using? Are you using a Lyman M die?

[Tatume]

The issue of 0.399 - 0.400" bullets shouldn't concern you if they are accurate. Once you get case tension on the bullets, shoot them and find out.

[igolfat8]

Everything I read says lead boolits should be .001"-.002" larger than the slug size of your barrel. Since these are coming out of the cases undersize then I suspected I would have some lead fouling issues and sought the advice of more experienced casters here. I will shoot a few this evening and see what the results are.

Dies are Lee used in a Dillon 550B progressive press. I am not sure about the sizing die size. Its what ever came with the Lee die set.

[Tatume]

If the bullets are the same as groove size you will be fine. It is not necessary to larger, especially in an auto pistol. Most of what you read was in reference to revolvers, which are a whole nuther story.

You should measure the diameter of the plug. If it is too large your bullets may be loose in the cases.

[MT Chambers]

I do things methodically, I would take out the expander stem and see if the die alone will size down enough for a very tight fit of the bullet with lots of case neck tension, if so, you need to get a smaller expander that only opens a bit and flares, and still leaves you lots of case neck tension.

[igolfat8]

I ran 50 rounds through it and there was extreme leading. Lead was smeared the full length of the bore, the area between the raised rifling ribs was nearly full of lead? Accuracy was decent but not great. I used tumble lube method with Recluse lube.

PowerPistol and Bullseye loads. They were pretty hot running 1230 - 1357 fps avg vel. Would running them at a slower speed reduce leading? Any speed suggestions to try for? I was trying to run slower powder to create more gas to work my comp. It was spitting lead and it left a LOT of lead buildup in the comp ports. Is this a result of too high of velocity, bad lube or soft bullets (range scrap water dropped) or undersized boolits?

[leeggen]

What alloy mix are you useing? are you water dropping to harden?? How long did the boolits rest before you loaded? What lube are you useing?
Many unanswered question before an accurate answer can be given.
The 40 S&W is not that hard to load for. You just might need to research this sight and read some of the old stickies before you proceed. Most times the stickies will answer the problem before you have it!!!
CD

[leeggen]

If I remember right it was Char-gar that done a bunch of 40 research. Use the sights google search with his name and you'll get alot of answers.
CD

[leeggen]

If I remember right it was Char-gar that done a bunch of 40 research. Use the sights google search with his name and you'll get alot of answers.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/google.php?cx=partner-pub-6216953551359885%3A1942134700&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Char+gar+40S%26W&siteurl=castboolits.gunloads.com%2Fshowthread.php% 3F245889-Need-help-with-Lee-40-S-amp-W-145-grain&ref=castboolits.gunloads.com%2Fsearch.php%3Fsearch id%3D1592820%26pp%3D%26page%3D4&ss=10313j12795521j16&sa.x=9&sa.y=6
CD

[dondiego]

leegen - he stated that the alloy was range scrap, water dropped, using Recluse tumble lube.

[igolfat8]

I think my issue may have been more related to velocity. I found that if I run the rounds in the high 900 FPS I get far less leading. Does that make sense?

[guncheese]

been chasing this combo as well
but when i did the first load it was at 1.110"
ive just been messing with the charge
but ive settled on 4.5gr of BE.
i dont have a chrono but ill bet they are in the 920-950fps area as they are powder coated and slick!
anyone else?

[igolfat8]

I had to change the OAL length from 1.100" to 1.080" and it eliminated some issues with cartridges sticking in the chamber. Still trying to reduce to leading issue.

[500MAG]

I would try some without water dropping them. Make sure your not swagging down the bullet any when seating. If your using a Lee FC die you need to watch out for this. Many use it for semi -autos but just need to be careful of the swagging.

[igolfat8]

I casted 1K air cooled to try. Just tumble lubed today and will take some to the range Monday. How do I tell if I have a Lee factory crimp die? I am using Lee .40 S&W dies. I have a Dillon 550b 4 station press. Would the FCD be in the 4th station? Does it have a specific number to identify the FCD?

[Virginia John]

If you bought the Lee 4 die set, it is the FCD. I have the same setup as you do - Lee 4 die set and RL550B press. I cast the .40 S&W using the Lee mould, water drop and run mine through a model 45 lubrisizer after letting them rest for a week or more. I load them up to about 900 FPS and haven't had a leading problem. I usually let mime age a little before shooting them. Maybe it is the tumble lube you are using. With my tumble lube moulds I use the Lee ALOX stuff and it seems to work well.

[igolfat8]

I tried air cooled after a two week rest and still getting significant leading in the barrel of my Glock 35 (Lone Wolf bbl).

I purchased a Lee hardness tester and my lead measures 10.5 air cooled and 29 water cooled. I get equal leading with either hardness.

Tried home made 45/45/10 tumble lube, straight Alox as well as purchased both pre-made from White Lable and still get the same leading will all of those lubes?

The only slight reduction (but still prevalent) leading that I have noticed is shooting as cast boolits .403-.405". It is ever so slightly marginally less leading with over-sized boolits but not by much.

Could the leading be powder related? I have used PowerPistol and TiteGroup but both have about the same leading.

Do you suggest changing die (brands) to eliminate the Lee FCD? If so, what dies?

I have shot 175 grain and 145 grain Lee boolits and both lead up about the same.

I am pulling my hair out chasing this one and am open to any wisdom anyone could share.

[Bullwolf]

A few things to look into.

If you are pulling loaded boolits and they are measure smaller... I would try not using the Lee FCD. In some calibers with oversize boolits (like cast .401 or .402 or larger rather than jacketed) I've had issues with the Lee factory crimp die post sizing down my boolits through the brass. Some folks swear by the Lee FCD, and others just swear at it.

The fastest way to get a leaded bore is by shooting undersized boolits. Use a boolit that's the correct size right from the start. The boolit needs to stay at the correct size during your entire loading process as well.

I would try replacing the Lee factory crimp die with ANY brand of 40 S&W taper crimp die that does not full length size your brass. If you have a spare set of Dillon dies on hand for 40S&W try using them instead of the Lee FCD.(A regular Lee taper crimp die, not the FCD will also work just fine)

Pull the boolit from a loaded cartridge and measure it while not using the FCD in your loading process. IF the boolit is no longer being sized down, then you've found your problem. If you measure a pulled boolit and are still getting sized down boolits during your loading procedure... Look into possibly using more case expansion, a custom oversize expander, or the use of a Lyman M die.

You can also try using a slower burning powder. I like to use Unique, or even Blue Dot in the 40 S&W. It seems to give a gentler start or push, and in some cases is less prone to gas cutting.

Make sure when you clean your barrel that you are getting all previous copper fouling out. Lead can stick to copper fouling. When having these kinds of problems, I like to clean the barrel all the way down to the metal. (no more green/blue color patches coming out from copper) I might even use a dab of JB bore paste to smooth things up some.

Last, look very closely at the throat in your new barrel. Look for a very short abrupt sharp square edged transition from the end of the chamber to the beginning of the rifling, rather than a gentle bevel or tapered throat. An un-throated barrel can shave lead from boolits during firing, and cause barrel leading. That could be the source of all your leading problems.

Not all gun barrels are made with shooting cast boolits in mind, and the use of a throating reamer on a brand new barrel may have been ignored. Throating is not a requirement for a barrel intended for use with jacketed ammunition only. Many new pistols are coming out with a distinct lack of any throating. This can be remedied with the use of a throating reamer.

You can find more information (and pictures) about barrel throating from the 1911 Throating sticky below.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?232061-1911-Throating

Hopefully something along these lines will help you out.




- Bullwolf

[triggerhappy243]

Look if the barrel has polygon rifling. If so, you need to replace the barrel as it does not like cast lead bullets.

[500MAG]

Look if the barrel has polygon rifling. If so, you need to replace the barrel as it does not like cast lead bullets.
While polygonal barrels are more prone to leading, especially the Glock, there are plenty of guys here that have been able to get the right combination of lube and sizing to minimize it enough to work fine.

[Bullwolf]

The Original Poster mentioned that he was using an aftermarket Lone Wolf barrel.


I tried air cooled after a two week rest and still getting significant leading in the barrel of my Glock 35 (Lone Wolf bbl).


I'm not sure if the Lone Wolf barrels use polygonal rifling or not, but it looks like the OP is using an aftermarket barrel in an attempt to get away from any potential problems that could arise from cast boolit usage with the stock Glock barrel.

We have a whole sticky dedicated to "The Truth about Glocks and Cast".
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?33855-The-Truth-about-Glocks-and-Cast
Many folks report no problems shooting cast with the stock Glock barrel, even though the manufacturer recommends against doing it.



- Bullwolf

[igolfat8]

The Lonewolf bbl doesn't have polygonal rifling. I believe it has button rifling. It DOES have a very sharp abrupt edge at the end of the chamber which transitions squarely into the rifling so this may be part of the problem and I will take your advice to get this area reamed.

Another issue I discovered tonight is the lead boolit OD is being constricted by the Lee FCD. The boolit starts out at .401". I pulled a few boolits after the seating die and most remained at .401" but a few were even .4005". Then I pulled a few after the Lee FCD and all the boolits ODs measured .399". My bbl slugged .400" so this is likely a major contributor to the leading too.

Since I use these same dies to load plated and jacketed bullets what other brand of dies do you suggest I purchase that would work for lead and copper bullets?

Thanks for all of your tips.

[6bg6ga]

I think you need a larger diameter bullet to stop the leading. I've never had luck with something that wasn't .002 larger than it slugged.

[Silverboolit]

Replace the FCD with a taper crimp die. Maker is your choice, I have had good luck with Lyman.

[triggerhappy243]

maybe there is too much crimp.... seems the lead is too soft. i shoot straight coww.... no additives out of my 1911.

[guncheese]

seat and crimp using the seating die instead of using the FCD
it will do both just fine
and you wont be squeezing the boolit so hard
its how i do my 40 and 9mm
in fact contrary to common opinion and advice
im seating and crimping in one step (i only do it because i can)
another thing ive done is to use a Lyman Mdie for expanding and belling http://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Auto-Expanding-M-Inchdie-SandW/dp/B006N74J7Y
it works perfectly as opposed to the Lee expander (i suppose you could make or have a custom Lee expander plug made)

i have another post in this thread about this boolit
im using 3.5gr of Bullseye under the powder coated boolit at 1.110 OAL
http://goo.gl/R3SAu8

[Jupiter7]

You could just modify your existing lee FCD. Remove the carbide ring at the die mouth, this is what does the post sizing feature. It is only press fit and can be knocked out, you end up with a long bodied crimp die. Otherwise, buy the standard taper crimp die. I use lee dies with the taper crimp, I've had zero issues to date. You may be onto something with your barrel having a sharp lead and shaving lead and distributing it down the barrel. Having the barrel throated could help.

Also, I'd double-check my flare. .40 brass is tough and will swage bullets down without proper flare.

[igolfat8]

Update... I now have NO leading, zero, nada, zilch, whoo hoo!

What did I do to cure this? Well, a lot of the credit goes to you folks and to another forum member who has been helping me via email (thanks dusty).

1) Removed Lee dies (with FCD) and installed Dillon dies with a taper crimp die
2) Ordered a larger powder funnel from Dillon. Had it turned down to .402"
3) Tried some other lubes which made the biggest difference in reducing the leading. Initially Dusty sent me his LithiBee lube to try which I applied with my fingers (wow, what a mess). Then tried pan lubing with LithiBee which was equally messy. I was able to load three rounds before I had to disassemble my dies and clean out the excess lube (which was entirely my fault due to hand lubing pretty much the entire boolit). I took 50 rounds to the range and voila the leading was almost entirely gone. The bore was slightly wet and super shiny but there was still a faint amount of leading in the first 1/2 inch of the barrel.
4) Next I mixed up a batch of Mike's Lube and tried that and ALL the leading was gone, woo hoo! BTW, all boolits were sized now to .4015" using a Lee single stage press and .401" die that I honed out to .4015".
5) After realizing life is too short to hand lube and pan lube I ordered a Star sizer with .402" dies. Wow, what a great investment in a quality tool! I am using Mike's lube exclusively and after 500 rounds the bore is still without a trace of lead.
6) Still using the same range scrap lead at 10.5 hardness. My velocity is now 1075 fps with tack driving accuracy.

Thanks again to all of you for your generous time, tips and help along the way. Shooting is once again enjoyable and for that I owe a debt of gratitude to all you fine folks!