Lyman 35863

[Ben]

I bought this one from " fatelvis " here on the forum.

His photos clearly showed rust in the mold cavities. I knew what I was buying. He was " straight up " with all aspects of the sale.

I saw some rust remover a few months ago in a hardware store. I bought a bottle just for this kind of job.

Here it is ;

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p545/Ben35049/001_zpsb413345b.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Ben35049/media/001_zpsb413345b.jpg.html)

Here is a link to the product :

http://www.amazon.com/KRUD-KUTTER-MR08-Must-8-Ounce/dp/B001AH7AY6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1404047761&sr=8-2&keywords=krud+kutter+the+must+for+rust

I disassembled the mold and put the mold halves into a glass jar. Covered the halves with gasoline to de-grease the mold halves and allowed them to sit for 15 minutes totally submerged in the gasoline.

Then I removed them and blew them off with an air hose.

Then I submerged the mold blocks in the rust remover ( the green liquid in the glass jar in the photo below ) :

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p545/Ben35049/IMG_20140623_100322_zps76413d0a.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Ben35049/media/IMG_20140623_100322_zps76413d0a.jpg.html)

The blocks were allowed to sit in the rust remover for about 20 minutes ( as per the directions with the product )

A bit of rubbing with 0000 steel wool and the mold blocks cleaned up really well. I lost the original Lyman bluing, but at least all the rust is gone now. I suppose that I could cold blue the blocks when they are warm and oil free ?

I think it cleaned up real well.

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p545/Ben35049/006_zps223eaf7b.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Ben35049/media/006_zps223eaf7b.jpg.html)

I wish I had taken some " before photos". I think " fatelvis " may still have some of the photos of the mold with the rust. Maybe he would add them here.

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p545/Ben35049/008_zps28d29eef.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Ben35049/media/008_zps28d29eef.jpg.html)

The mold cast real well :

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p545/Ben35049/013_zps2ff3a3f1.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Ben35049/media/013_zps2ff3a3f1.jpg.html)

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p545/Ben35049/011_zps880ce803.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Ben35049/media/011_zps880ce803.jpg.html)

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p545/Ben35049/010_zps1620eebf.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Ben35049/media/010_zps1620eebf.jpg.html)

Here is the " As Cast " diameter :

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p545/Ben35049/016_zps2dc9fd96.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Ben35049/media/016_zps2dc9fd96.jpg.html)

Here is the same bullet after being pushed through my Lee Sizing die :

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p545/Ben35049/017_zps49b65612.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Ben35049/media/017_zps49b65612.jpg.html)

[Ben]

The bullets weigh " a tad " over 149 grs. ea. and the diameter is just about ideal for my needs.

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p545/Ben35049/cd613697-adee-4258-9930-b29e5a4016a9_zpsd704d6c5.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Ben35049/media/cd613697-adee-4258-9930-b29e5a4016a9_zpsd704d6c5.jpg.html)

I sized some to .3580" and lubed the bottom ring with Ben's Red , then rolled them in 45/45/10 and set the bullets on wax paper to dry.

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p545/Ben35049/018_zps9d540af2.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Ben35049/media/018_zps9d540af2.jpg.html)

I'm looking forward to trying them out.

Ben

[EMC45]

Great pics Ben (again)...

[GLL]

Fantastic photographic documentation Ben !

This is a GREAT picture ! (rotated for my brain)

http://www.fototime.com/4ED6B2A08186092/xlarge.jpg
Jerry

[DeanWinchester]

Judging by the way you lubed them, I'm saying you'll be running the bevel base as the nose?
If so, that's exactly what I thought when I fist saw the castings.

Now, what'r'ya stuffin' em in? Hmmmm, .358 Winchester with a tiny pinch of fast pistol powder?
No wait! I got it, .35 Remington and 10.0g of Unique.

[Ben]

Jerry,

You're kind with your words, but both of us know that I'm not even close to being in your league with a camera.

Ben

[Ben]

Judging by the way you lubed them, I'm saying you'll be running the bevel base as the nose?
If so, that's exactly what I thought when I fist saw the castings.

Now, what'r'ya stuffin' em in? Hmmmm, .358 Winchester with a tiny pinch of fast pistol powder?
No wait! I got it, .35 Remington and 10.0g of Unique.

I once read that if you had a wadcutter that was smooth on both ends, if you seated the smooth end against the powder charge , that it produced slightly tighter 25 yard groups than the sprue end of the W/C against the powder charge.

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p545/Ben35049/076543_zpsca8cf4f2.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Ben35049/media/076543_zpsca8cf4f2.jpg.html)

Is that true, I don't know, but I'm going to try it and I guess we'll see ? ? ?

My 358 Win. may see some of these soon, but my 1st trial with these will be my 6" Ruger , GP-100.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/009-38.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/005-49.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/004-63.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/006-53.jpg

[GLL]

Ben:

You better look at that photo again ! :)

Jerry

[BruceB]

Over the years of my Bullseye competition shooting, I probably cast a quarter-million of the 35863 bullets. My first mould was a special-order 4-cavity job from Lyman (of course). It failed to return home when a "friend" left town with it. My current mould for the Model 52 S&W is a two-cavity Lyman which casts equally-good bullets.

I always loaded them sprue-DOWN in the case, mostly because I *preferred* the appearance. The two ends of the bullet are shaped identically.

In those times, the Remington Targetmaster was the "hot set-up" for factory ammunition, and we managed to duplicate the Remington 50-yard machine-rest groups with the 35863 loads. It took some work, but we did it.

Lovely photos!

[Ben]

when a "friend" left town with it

Never loan a nice mold , or your girl friend.....far too risky.
---------------------------------

Thanks Bruce,

I have about 9 different 38/357 Wadcutter molds.

When I saw this 35863 for sale here on the forum, I thought I'd like to try it.

Based on what you've said, my recent purchase may turn out real well for me ?


we managed to duplicate the Remington 50-yard machine-rest groups with the 35863 loads. It took some work, but we did it.

Bruce, I'm more than a bit curious about the load data that did well for you at 50 yards with the 35863 cast bullet in the 38 Spec., it sounds like you put quite a bit of effort into it. You could save me A LOT OF TIME ?

Many thanks,

Ben

[TXGunNut]

Nicely done. Don't tell my PPC guns, they think they're retired. ;-)

[BruceB]

[QUOTE=Ben;2830324]
Never loan a nice mold , or your girl friend.....far too risky.

>>>>>>>>>Yep, I sure learned a lesson from that episode. I can now count on the fingers of one hand, the number of people I'd trust with my moulds (or books).... and even then, I have several fingers left over.
---------------------------------

I'm more than a bit curious about the load data that did well for you at 50 yards with the 35863 cast bullet in the 38 Spec., it sounds like you put quite a bit of effort into it. You could save me A LOT OF TIME ?

>>>>>>That was a very long time ago, back in the early '70s. We were all shooting the S&W Model 52 autoloader in .38 Special, and using a LEE "machine rest" (so-called) for the testing work. It wasn't a "real" machine rest, like a Ransom for instance, but it did work pretty well after some experience.

The M52s preferred .356" sizing, which I suspect was due to S&W using the same barrel tools for these .38s as they used for the 9mm pistols of the day. Only one bullet groove was lubed, and that was the rear-most one. Bullets were seated with the sprue mark inside the case. Lube was commercial stuff, of whatever sort we could find at the end of a LOOOOONG supply line.

The bullet alloy was straight linotype, because one of our group had bought a printing shop with seven tons of the stuff down in the basement.

All the brass was factory "match" .38s, which has a different internal shape than does 'normal' .38 brass.... the case walls are straighter, with less thickness toward the rear of the case. This allows seating the wadcutter bullets to full depth (flush with the case mouth) without distortion. We used a very slight roll crimp... this was before the taper-crimp dies became commonly available.

Powder was almost exclusively Bullseye, although a couple members did well with Red Dot. Individuals used different charges according to their own guns' results. My pistol preferred 2.8 grains, but my wife's M52 needed 2.9 or 3.0 grains to function reliably. This was due to her lesser body mass to resist the recoil impulse.... her gun worked fine in MY hands with 2.8 grains. All charges were dropped with an RCBS measure, no weighing of each charge.

Primers were standard small-pistol type, of Canadian manufacture.

We did weigh bullets intended for fifty-yard slow-fire. The 25-yard timed-and-rapid was much less-demanding for accuracy and we just kept the loads for the two distances separated.

Looking back, it all seems pretty basic..... but we were largely greenhorns and were pleased to get results as good as we did. The ten-ring at 50 yards is 3.39", and the Remingtons generally grouped within that dimension for TEN rounds at fifty. After some considerable testing, so did the handloads.

Most of our shooting was indoors due to the Arctic climate, but a lot of competitions were fired in southern Canada as our Territorial teams usually managed to get quite a bit of travel assistance to reach those far-away matches. My cast bullets found "final rest" in backstops from coast to coast to coast.... there's an Arctic coastline in Canada, as well as Atlantic and Pacific.

Bullet casting has reached a sophistication that we never even dreamed of, 'way back then. Much of what we learned is now common knowledge, and YES, I do believe you will find the 35863 a rewarding design,

Good luck!

Sorry this reply took so long; I somehow missed your above-quoted post.

[Ben]

Bruce,

Thanks so much for a VERY interesting read.

Would be nice if I could locate some 38 Spec. Match brass also.

Thanks again for your efforts above, I always enjoy reading your articles.

Ben

[starreloader]

Ben, that mould is one of the best wadcutter designs... I shot it exclusively in all the PPC, PMA and Bullseye Matches when I was shooting back in the 70's and early 80's.... I was part of a 4-man team that shot in the PMA N.E. Championship Match at Philadelphia, PA in July of 1980... I made all the ammo for that SHOOT for our team loaded with that bullet... Loaded 2.8 grs of Bullseye Powder, seated the bullets with the sprue cut as the nose, used Federal primers and loaded the ammo on a Star Reloader.. I still have the Lyman 4 cavity mould that made those bullets... And we did take 1st Place in the 4-Man shoot...

I have a fair amount of 38 Special Match brass for wadcutter bullets if you need any.. Give me a PM

[fatelvis]

Damn, I should have kept that mold.....Lol Unfortunately I deleted the rusty mold pics after selling it, but I can tell you that it removed a decent amount of surface rust cleanly. Thanks for the heads up on the rust treatment Ben, it seems like it worked beautifully!

[Bigslug]

I once read that if you had a wadcutter that was smooth on both ends, if you seated the smooth end against the powder charge , that it produced slightly tighter 25 yard groups than the sprue end of the W/C against the powder charge.

This makes a fair amount of sense to me. So much has been written about how critical having a pristine, square base is to accuracy. If both ends of the bullet are flat, it seems logical to use the side NOT torn up by the sprue cutter as the stern.

It also seems that the way you plan to load them gives you the better aerodynamics of the "ogival wadcutter" profile that will maintain accuracy over a longer distance better than the pure soup can.

Fairly new GP-100? Gotta give 'em props on the blueing.

[BruceB]

"Seems" is one thing, but actual testing is the final proof.

In firing thousands of test rounds from a mechanical rest, there was NO DETECTABLE DIFFERENCE in the grouping when the bullets were loaded sprue-forward, sprue-rearward, or with random distribution in a given number of test rounds.

Also, using the rearmost groove ONLY for lube DID affect the grouping, especially when compared to loads with all grooves filled, and also loads with ONE groove filled but random seating.... some loads with filled groove forward mixed with loads with lubed groove to the rear.

Plain and simple.....the best accuracy was obtained with the rear groove filled, and that's exactly what we used following the tests.

"Torn-up bases" from cutting the sprues? Not bloody likely! Such a base would be cause for rejecting that bullet. The bases were (and are) dead-smooth. The bullets are true double-enders, with identical profiles at both ends. NO difference, in other words.

It was simply a matter of deciding which end would be visible after loading, and it was determined that we would load the sprue-marks DOWN.

The decision also determined how the lube would be applied (Lyman #45 in those days), i.e.: pick up a bullet, give it a fast final inspection, place it in the die with sprue DOWN, and size/lube it.

After that, it was very easy to get the correct orientation when loading.... that one lubed groove was an obvious and highly-visible "clue"!

[Ben]

Up-Date

I've located 1,000 - Winchester, Yellow, 38 Spec. Match brass ( starreloader (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?14903-starreloader) ) and he will ship the brass on Monday.

I'm getting closer to developing some very accurate 38 Spec. Match grade , W/C ammo.

Thanks again to Bruce, Starreloader, fatelvis and everyone else who has offered help,

Ben

[500MAG]

After seeing this I think a bottle of that it a must to have around.

[Ben]

500MAG (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?24042-500MAG)

It worked well for me. I've also read good things about Evap -O- Rust.

If we buy, sell, trade enough iron molds, we will all need an effective way to deal with rust sooner or later .

Ben

[500MAG]

I'd like to pour some on my mother-on-law. She's getting pretty rusty in her old age.

[Ben]

Give it a try and report back ( if you're able ? ? )

[fatelvis]

Here's a few pics of the mold before he worked his magic on it....
109417109418109419

[GLL]

Anybody have a 35863 they would like to sell of trade ? :)

Jerry

[Ben]

Here's a few pics of the mold before he worked his magic on it....
109417109418109419


Thanks for posting those " Before Photos ".

Yes,in my opinion, the rust remover worked well .

Thanks again,

Ben

[TXGunNut]

Wish I was casting boolits back when I was shooting PPC. My first Open Gun was actually built for BBWC but I decided to use a HBWC. Barrel got bulged by a squib so I replaced it with one that would handle the longer boolits.
If I'd been casting boolits back then I could have afforded more gas, hotel bills and entry fees.

Too soon old, too late smart.

[Buckshot]

.....................BruceB must have forgotten the Lyman 4 cav 35863 he sold me for my 38 S&W's :-) Having 3 revolters in that magnificent cartridge, when he said he was going to get rid of the mould as it cast the slugs at .363", it would tax your imagination to conceive how fast I jumped on it! 8-)

Happily enough in an old Lyman manual they show the 35863 with loads in a flush seated position for the 38 Special. Two of my revolvers chambered for the 38 S&W are Victory models. So in the stubby 38 S&W case I can load that slug to the same OAL length via crimping into the bottom lube groove. Odd having a boolit that is hanging out of the case that is almost as long as the case itself!

............... Buckshot

[tazman]

...Odd having a boolit that is hanging out of the case that is almost as long as the case itself!............... Buckshot

I do something similar with this boolit in my 38 special loads for my 357mag revolvers. Seems to help the accuracy by reducing the boolit jump to the cylinder throats as well as allowing a heavier powder charge.

[EdS]

As can be seen from the photos there are at least two forms of Lyman 35863; one form is truly "double end" in that each end has identical bevels, while on the other form one bevel is longer sloped than the other. I happen to have one mold of each form, and the bullets cast from the same alloy on the same melt weigh 141 grains and 146 grains. I thought that one of my molds was "out of specification" but now I believe that Lyman made both forms, possible during different time periods? Interesting... -Ed

[Ben]

EdS:

I'm like you, I also believe there are at least 2 different styles of the 35863 mold.

Bruce in an earlier post ( # 17 ) was saying his bullets from his 35863 were identical on both ends and his finding were they could be seated sprue up or down with little to no difference in their performance down range. As to his mold , I'm certain that was the case, but my mold is obvioulsy different than Bruce's mold.

As you can see from the 1st photo below, the sprue end of my particular 35863 mold clearly has a greater slope on the bevel . I'm experimenting right now with the non-sprue end ( smooth end ) being seated in the case toward the powder charge.

Even though mine is obviously different than Bruce's , it is still possible that there may be very little difference in my version as to direction of the sprue end in orientation of the loading procedure.

I recently received 1K ,nice ,clean ,Winchester 38 Special Match cases to experiment with while I evaluate this bullet's performance. The testing continues..............

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p545/Ben35049/076543_zps58724d4d.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Ben35049/media/076543_zps58724d4d.jpg.html)

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p545/Ben35049/006_zps8368240b.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/Ben35049/media/006_zps8368240b.jpg.html)

Ben

[tazman]

The mold I have is identical on both ends and drops at 149gr. Both ends are like the lower end of yours(the end away from the sprue).
I get no difference in performance using either end up in the cartridge.

[Ben]

Makes you wonder why Lyman made the change in the design of the 35863, from one to the other ?

It seems however, that Lyman made " random " changes to MANY of their molds in past years. Why so many changes, I've never understood ? Some have speculated that they " farmed out " the making of cherries and that resulted in some of the variations that are seen over long periods of time. Is that true, I have no idea ? ?

Ben

[Janoosh]

Perhaps someone thought it would be easier to load...but in reality. ..who knows why..

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/3B773CE97D573A2/standard.jpg

Slugs I've used in the 38 S&W. The one 2nd from the left is the 35863. Seated to the same OAL as a flush seated slug in the 38 Special (see nickle 38 Special case on the right) allows me to use that data in the two 38 Special capable revolvers (V models) chambered 38 S&W. Cast of pure lead, my 4 banger drops'm a skosh over .362".

http://www.fototime.com/15427C2B47E63FD/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/8DAF2A1F0B9E0C6/standard.jpg

(LEFT)Iver Johnson 5 shot 38 S&W @ 25 yards benched. Lyman 35863 pure lead, TL, 1.6gr Red Dot 510 fps. (RIGHT) The IJ peestol. The front sight is about as wide as a razor blade and the rear 'V' atop the frame latch is microscopic. That aside, a group like that at 25 yards speaks very well for a revolver designed for 'Across the bedroom' shoot outs! :-)

.............Buckshot

[captaint]

Damned interesting thread fellas... Now THIS is the kind of stuff I like to read. Anyway, I bought a surface rusted 4 cav Lyman 358..91, I think, on ebay. Got it cheap cause it was a little rusted. Gave it the Rustoleum treatment and voila. Great mold. Now, to get some of that wadcutter brass......... Mike PS. Ben, your pics are absolutely terrific. Really..

[Ben]

captaint :

You guys always know how to make an OLD MAN feel good.

Thanks for your comments,

Ben

[captaint]

What can I tell ya, Ben ? They just keep getting better !! Mike

[Ia.redneck]

Good job on that mold Ben! Looks like that is an excellent product.
I was in a 38 special wadcutter loading project last year and came here for advice. Char-Gar and some others helped me a lot. If you get fliers try giving RCBS a call and get a .359 expander plug, the fella knew right away what I wanted ;-)
It actually measures .358 and allowed me to slide the .358 boolits right in with hardly more than thumb pressure with the wadcutter brass. Reduced my fliers considerably. The 38 special expander that came with the set miked .356. I now use that for 9mm.
Win-Win situation!
Dale

[Ben]

Yes, sometimes those expander plugs can either be too tight or open the necks so excessively that the bullet simply falls down the neck of the case.

Ben

[Good Cheer]

Good save on the mold.

In about '81 or '82 Lyman had a bargain price sell off of blocks that the cherry had been too far in to meet their in-house tolerances. Got one of this design and found out that the military .38 brass had wall too thick to allow full depth seating. The cartridges wouldn't chamber! Played around with it, found that soft alloy with a crimp on gas check on the sprue cutter end and seated out long with WW296, that it made a humdinger .357 load. Very versatile design.