Brand new to ML.. Need advice / help

[Doublea]

I am brand new to muzzle loading. Been watching tons of vids on the net trying to learn as much as I can but most everything I see on line is using modern inline ML in .45 or .50 cal..... I was given a very nice NIB 1970's era TC Seneca in .54 caliber as payment for some work. I am very excited as I have always wanted to hunt with a ML. Went once 30 some odd years ago as a young boy scout but never had a chance to shoot:)
I have some questions I can not seem to find answers to.. Maybe someone here can help.
Am I limited to round balls for this firearm? Can I shoot conicals or Minie balls from this? Do I need or want to? Is the round ball perfectly suitable for deer hunting?
I plan to practice this summer and hopefully use it this fall for late season ML deer hunting in western NY.
Any advise for a newbie would be vastly appreciated.

[mooman76]

Congrats on the gun and it seems to be a very good one that's hard to come by and usually at a high price. RBs are perfectly suitable for deer especially in the 54 cal area. You probably can also shoot conicals but it will depend on the twist rate of your gun as to how well they will perform. Pick up a book on black powder and read it, it will help you a lot. Modern inlines load basically the same as the older style MLs with some minor exceptions but are basically the same except they are designed more for sabots.

[smoked turkey]

Welcome Doublea. You are going to get some very experienced, knowledgeable folks answer your good questions. I will take a stab and make a few suggestions regarding your muzzleloader. I will say that you were given a very nice muzzleloader and it will certainly work well for you. I kind prefer the sidelocks like yours for general black powder shooting. I like the .54 caliber as well. I would recommend you obtain the Lyman black powder handbook. It has lots of good information on the subject and also good loading information. If you get on the TC web site you can download a copy of the owners manual for your TC Seneca. In it you will find good loading information. Also the "stickies" at the top of each section has a wealth of information available with the touch of a few keys on your keyboard. I shot a small but nice whitetail a couple of years ago with my TC Renegade in .54 using a Maxie ball. It was a one shot deal at about 60 yards. So yes from personal experience, I can say they work. In answer to your questions I would say yes you can shoot patched round ball (prb) with very good results both hunting and target shooting. The various conical and sabots will also probably work for you. The twist rate of your rifle will dictate which will likely be more accurate in your Seneca. I am not a proponent of loading my muzzleloaders to "magnum" status. I just have not found they kill any better for me at the shorter ranges I hunt at. 70 or 80 grains of black or a substitute like Pyrodex does the job for me. That is a volume measurement. So make sure you have the proper black powder measure before you load her up. Hope this helps some. Most of all HAVE FUN!

[bubba.50]

either yer gun model or yer caliber is off. Senecas are a small gun & came in .32, .36. & .45 calibers. T/C traditional style guns in .54cal would be the Renegade, Hawken(sorta rare), New Englander. there are a couple others but these are most common. any of them will shoot roundball or maxi-balls with about equal accuracy with a little load development. needin' to or wantin' to shoot boolits over r/b's is a personal choice of which do you prefer. a .54cal roundball will take care of anything on the North American continent. my preference is the maxi-ball type projectiles because they're less fuss for me. I can pan-lube ever how many I think i'll need & don't hafta fool with cuttin' patches & lubin' in the field/at the range & other stuff that just seems messy to me. anyway, luck & have a good'en, bubba.

[Doublea]

either yer gun model or yer caliber is off. Senecas are a small gun & came in .32, .36. & .45 calibers. T/C traditional style guns in .54cal would be the Renegade, Hawken(sorta rare), New Englander. there are a couple others but these are most common. any of them will shoot roundball or maxi-balls with about equal accuracy with a little load development. needin' to or wantin' to shoot boolits over r/b's is a personal choice of which do you prefer. a .54cal roundball will take care of anything on the North American continent. my preference is the maxi-ball type projectiles because they're less fuss for me. I can pan-lube ever how many I think i'll need & don't hafta fool with cuttin' patches & lubin' in the field/at the range & other stuff that just seems messy to me. anyway, luck & have a good'en, bubba.


Thanks Bubba... Looked a little harder at the paperwork in the box... Like I said it was NIB.. The parts list was for a Renegade but the user manual was for a Seneca??? Kinda strange but your information is helpful so I don't sound like an Idiot when talking to people about the rifle.

[Doublea]

All good info everyone... Thanks. PRB's are much easier to find around here and the hunting ranges are usually less than 80 yards. It sounds as though I should keep it simple to start and use prb and just practice....

[dondiego]

I would start with a patched round ball and 80 grains of 2F powder. Not sure if it was mentioned already or not, but it is VERY important to clean your rifle well after shooting with soap and water. Don't wait until next week to clean it, do it as soon after shooting as you can.

Don

[Geraldo]

When target shooting, you only need as much powder as it takes to get your ball to the target. In .54s I shoot 50-60gr as a target load (in my .40 I use as little as 25gr). Ramp up your hunting load as hot as you want it.

[doc1876]

I can't add much here, as these guys are right on for you. As was said, more powder does not make it shoot better or harder. Your gun will handle a real heavy charge, but there is no use I it. 80 gr is about all you will ever need. 120 would be max, and you will probably not ever shoot it again!
Clean is the key here, clean it good, and then coat every exposed metal part inside and out with good grease. I use #2 axel grease on everything, and my guns are over thirty years old, and none of them have rust on them. A quick patch and wipe job, and ready for the field.
you might try preloaded cartridges for in the field, at least take a powder measure with your horn.
when you get a ball stuck, and you will, there are some threads on this forum devoted exclusively to that!
oh yea, and when you get a load, MARK your ram rod at the muzzel, this will insure that if you accidentally over or under charge, you have a reference that will catch your eye that you did this.

[waksupi]

Your rifle will have one most accurate load. Find it, use it. Stick with round balls.

[Anonym]

I too like round balls and recommend them as they are perfectly adequate for hunting most game in the US. Your Renegade will have a "middle of the road" twist rate, which may also allow you to shoot a heavier conical with decent results. You may try both and see how your particular rifle shoots them, and settle in on whatever you like and are comfortable with. Personally, I find an 80gr FF load under a patched 0.530 RB excellent for my shooting/hunting, but I also have a slower twist to the rifling on my barrel.

I would probably start about 60 grains and shoot groups of 3 or 5 at whatever range I planned on doing most of my shooting/hunting. Increase the charge in either 5 or 10 grain increments (whatever you can reasonably measure) and see when your grouping starts to open up. Back it back down to the last charge that shot well and you have the best combination at the highest velocity for your rifle.

The key is consistency. Do the same thing each shot until you find what works best. I tend to tap my measure a couple times to "settle in" the powder charge before knocking off the excess. I also tap the side of the stock near the lock to help settle the powder into the drum before loading the patch/ball for more reliable ignition. Apply the same amount of pressure to the ball over the charge, seating it firmly.

You will also get into other habits, such as a spit patch between shots to swab out the barrel, and doing a more thorough cleaning every "x" number of shots because you know the fouling plays too much with the accuracy if you let it go longer.

Hunting with traditional equipment is VERY satisfying, especially when you start making your own stuff like equipment and projectiles. One day I'm going to try making my own powder...

[Anonym]

I also forgot to mention...

Somewhere on the "net", I found a calculator that you could enter in the caliber of your rifle and what length your barrel was and it would determine how much powder you could reasonably burn pushing a round ball of that caliber. It was pretty interesting to see and compare to some of these "magnum" shooters charges. Turns out that a LOT of powder is burned outside the barrel (large fireball/muzzle flash), which is inefficient, and also has the potential to ruin accuracy as the projectile has left the guiding confines of the barrel but is still being pushed by the blast of the powder charge. Helped me determine a max load before I started with the above test for accuracy.

[fouronesix]

I'm assuming you have a 54 cal Renegade?

If so, the patched roundball will do fine as will a properly cast and loaded pure lead conical like the original T/C Maxiball. You may find very quickly though, a full house load behind the 54 cal Maxiball in the Renegade off the bench may "lean" you toward using primarily the patched roundball. :)

[docone31]

I have found, when you find the good load, it goes CRACK, rather than boom. When I load my rifles that way, they do well.My R.E.A.L.s I use 60gns, RB, 75.No point wasting good powder.Also, the thickness of the patch makes a difference also. I use the thinner ticking, the heavy stuff is slow to load, and not as accurate.

[triggerhappy243]

AS FOR CLEANING... if you live in a humid climate, i would not use soap and water. i rusted out 2 barrels following t/c's cleaning instructions. i now use a fouling neutralizing chemical first to get out the sulfer( the corrosive stuff).the powder fouling hides in the pores of the steel and under lead fouling too.

[dondiego]

Water has been used to clean successfully for about 600 years but only about 50 years by me. BP residue is water soluble after all. I thought the TC cleaning instructions were based around the bore butter seasoning concept. Were you using Pyrodex or real gunpowder?

[triggerhappy243]

I use bore butter and pyrodex. but here is the kicker. the water here where i live has an elevated sulfur content. alot of the water in the u.s. has more and more undesireable mineral deposits.... which are corrosive. i switched to hoppes b.p. solvent... no more barrel pitting.

[dondiego]

I guess the main thing is that you found a method that works and will not damage any more of your barrels. Good.

[fouronesix]

AS FOR CLEANING... if you live in a humid climate, i would not use soap and water. i rusted out 2 barrels following t/c's cleaning instructions. i now use a fouling neutralizing chemical first to get out the sulfer( the corrosive stuff).the powder fouling hides in the pores of the steel and under lead fouling too.

I hope my barrels don't read this! I've shot and cleaned a pile of MLs for the last 45 years using hot soapy water, followed by hot clear water, followed by dry paper towel patches, followed by oil. Haven't rusted/corroded a bore yet. But then again I only shoot real BP except for a less than 1/2 pound trial of Pyrodex when it first hit the market in the 70s. My one, very brief foray into the darkness :)

As far as corrosion under lead.... the idea is to get the lead out during normal cleaning, after shooting. There are a ton of regular non-muzzleloader bores out there that have never seen blackpowder that have both lead and copper fouling left in place over the years. No matter the magic neutralizing solvents that have been used during their lives... if that metal fouling has been there a while there is an excellent chance that corrosion pitting or etching is hiding under that fouling. :)

[Nicholas]

Over 3 decade, my .54 Renegade has remained rust free inside and out cleaning with hot soapy water, then rinsing with more near boiling water. The hot bbl dries itself. After the bbl cools, I then coat with TC Bore Butter inside and out. I have never used a drop of mineral oil on the bbl. Do remove the bbl from the stock before cleaning with hot water. The hooked breach makes this easy. Loop a hand towel around the bbl and twist it for a safe handle, and pump the hot water in and out of the bbl through the nipple with a patch on a synthetic ramrod. During shooting with Pyrodex, I clean as necessary with TC 13 liquid cleaner.

[dondiego]

I have often cleaned with just plain old cold water, especially when I used to camp near a creek or lake. The hot water does dry the barrel though.

[OverMax]

Am I limited to round balls for this firearm? Can I shoot conicals or Minie balls from this? Do I need or want to? Is the round ball perfectly suitable for deer hunting?

Staying on topic.
Shooting anything other than P-RB you will notice a up-turn in recoil. Takes allot of patience and some shoulder bruising to tame and shoot a 54 accurately regardless of projectile choice. Your rifle has a rifling twist rate of 1 full turn in 48 inches. So its barrel will accommodate Maxi Minie sabot and P-ball. 90 grs of Black 2-FFg under 535 ball w/ .010 patch is my favorite recipe. FWIW: One thing is guaranteed. I always have a blood trail. But seldom do my shot animals leave my sight. Or better said: most collapse well before. I never found a need to shoot anything but P-ball in mine.
You'll soon discover your 54 is the most powerful of all Traditional B/P rifles you can carry afield. 40-45-50-56-58 the 54 out thumps them all. A patched ball over a 100 gr charge measured at muzzle is likely to be traveling near 1855 fps. and having energy near 1758 ft lbs. Having those Stats. Do you think your rifle is capable of dropping a thin skinned Eastern deer?~~~~~~~~~ (yup I think so.)

[triggerhappy243]

Overmax could not have put it any better. I can vouch for the recoil.

[Doublea]

Everyone.... Thanks for all the advice... Been reading every one... Gittin antsy to practice before fall... Walked into a small old timers store today and scored big time. He had 5 boxes of Hornady .535 balls been sitting there so long they were thick with dust.... They had been marked down several times... I scored all 5 boxes for $25!!!!!!!!!!!!! The caps were a pain in the rear though! after driving all over Gods creation and hitting about 10 shops I finally found 2 boxes!
Next pay check will be a can of powder and a measure... then it's off to the field to try this baby out!

[Captain*Kirk]

Doublea, You can't always go by traditional knowledge. I have a Lyman Trade rifle in .50 with a 1:48 twist; common lore dictates this rifle should shoot equally well using RB or MAXI-type. I bought a Lee REAL mould years ago with the intention of using the rifle for deer, but never was happy with the consistency. On a whim, I tried a couple PRB combos and was ecstatic to find the rifle turned into an overnight tack-driver. My advice to you would be take a notebook and pencil to the range with lots of powder, caps and as many bullet/ball/patch combos as you can rustle up and let your T/C tell you what IT likes.

[triggerhappy243]

save your targets. and write all the load data on each target... along with the date, time and temp.

[Rattus58]

Staying on topic.
Shooting anything other than P-RB you will notice a up-turn in recoil. Takes allot of patience and some shoulder bruising to tame and shoot a 54 accurately regardless of projectile choice. Your rifle has a rifling twist rate of 1 full turn in 48 inches. So its barrel will accommodate Maxi Minie sabot and P-ball. 90 grs of Black 2-FFg under 535 ball w/ .010 patch is my favorite recipe. FWIW: One thing is guaranteed. I always have a blood trail. But seldom do my shot animals leave my sight. Or better said: most collapse well before. I never found a need to shoot anything but P-ball in mine.
You'll soon discover your 54 is the most powerful of all Traditional B/P rifles you can carry afield. 40-45-50-56-58 the 54 out thumps them all. A patched ball over a 100 gr charge measured at muzzle is likely to be traveling near 1855 fps. and having energy near 1758 ft lbs. Having those Stats. Do you think your rifle is capable of dropping a thin skinned Eastern deer?~~~~~~~~~ (yup I think so.)

Well that 1700 foot pounds is at the muzzle and deteriorates quite rapidly in fact, to around 700 at 100 yards, but that really isn't what is unique about a round ball... for some reason, they fly just about through anything in my experience, though I've not shot a moose or anything.. I shoot a lot of other stuff. I hunt with an 58 and I have two .54s, both flinters. I think I can say that for most people, a .54 is a grand compromise, even better than the 1-48 twist is especially if you're shooting a round ball. It doesn't have the knockdown of a 58, but it has only an inch and a half of rise on the way to 100 yard zero, where my 58 has a 3" rise to 100. Much easier to be accurate with the 54 I think. A 58 will still knock the snot out of anything at 100 yards, that's why I shoot it, but a 54 is just a real sweet shooter in my mind.

Much Aloha... :cool:

[OverMax]

Doublea (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?36855-Doublea): FWIW. If you intend to shoot 535 balls. It doesn't take much powder fouling to stall a 3rd patched ball from being pushed down the barrel. Its a good idea if you carry some premixed B/P barrel cleaner along in a container of some sort and a good suppy of cleaning patches & Jag. If you intend to shoot for an hour or so or longer. After a couple shots. Your barrel may require a quick swab for ease of reloading. For those occasions when its not feasible to carry barrel cleaner along. You could try an undersize ball like a .526 I think its is? That ball requires a thicker patch that either .535 .530 can use. The .526 ball can be reloaded more times in a fouled barrel verses the other two (.535 or .530.) just by reducing its patch thickness's.

[Rattus58]

Doublea (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?36855-Doublea): FWIW. If you intend to shoot 535 balls. It doesn't take much powder fouling to stall a 3rd patched ball from being pushed down the barrel. Its a good idea if you carry some premixed B/P barrel cleaner along in a container of some sort and a good suppy of cleaning patches & Jag. If you intend to shoot for an hour or so or longer. After a couple shots. Your barrel may require a quick swab for ease of reloading. For those occasions when its not feasible to carry barrel cleaner along. You could try an undersize ball like a .526 I think its is? That ball requires a thicker patch that either .535 .530 can use. The .526 ball can be reloaded more times in a fouled barrel verses the other two (.535 or .530.) just by reducing its patch thickness's.I shoot .535 balls in my .54's. Loading is an issue no matter and a thin patch (mine are lubed with ballistol and water mix evaporated... ala Dutch Shoultze) even can be a tight fit... but at the range I swab between each shot. I use a Murine or similar type eye drop bottle with alcohol to swab the bore.

Aloha... :cool:

[triggerhappy243]

I too.... clean between every shot. after all, you are hunting with a clean barrel.... do load development with a clean barrel.

[OverMax]

+1 for triggerhappy243. Same here.

[OverMax]

I shoot .535 balls in my .54's. Loading is an issue no matter and a thin patch (mine are lubed with ballistol and water mix evaporated... ala Dutch Shoultze) even can be a tight fit... but at the range I swab between each shot. I use a Murine or similar type eye drop bottle with alcohol to swab the bore.
Good plain Rattus58 to keep on shooting by swabbing between shots.
I usually can get 3 shots off before either of my barrel's needs a little attention when using Gorex 2-FFG. Homemade powder is much different. Dirtier powder being its only screened to size. (Not corned.) With its use i have to swab more often than I would like. (after every shot is likely) I use your Ballistol for its barrel cleaning abilities at home. BTW: I don't bother with homemade patch lubes anymore. Just use Ox Yoke's Wonder Lube. Stuff works as good as any other for my applications. 45-54 cals. Both having (Rd. Ball only barrels) installed.

[Geezer in NH]

I have taken many deer, and 2 moose 1 a bull 1 a cow with my 54 cal flintlock patched round ball on all with 85grns of 2fg. I shoot 50grn 3fg for fun. I tried 120grn of 2fg but did not need the extra recoil as the 85grn loads penetrate fully with no recovered balls. All my shots are under 100 yards as it's hard to see further in the bush.

[kens]

you also need to know the depth of your rifling.
Shallow groove barrels use thinner patch such as cotton muslin, and deep groove bbls use thick patch like pillow ticking or denim.

you can also 'read' your patches.
recover some of your patches from downrange (about 10 feet) and study them.
you can tell if the rifling is too sharp and cutting patches.
you can see pressure blowby. if so, you need tighter patch, larger ball, or both.
after you find the 'sweet' load, and if you can recover a ball from downrange, you will see the weave of cotton patch engraved into the lead ball, along with a slight engraving of rifling.

[kens]

I have found, when you find the good load, it goes CRACK, rather than boom. When I load my rifles that way, they do well.My R.E.A.L.s I use 60gns, RB, 75.No point wasting good powder.Also, the thickness of the patch makes a difference also. I use the thinner ticking, the heavy stuff is slow to load, and not as accurate.

the 'crack' you hear is the projectile going supersonic.
when you hear it 'crack' you have reached the upper end of ML performance.
muzzle loader round balls operate at approx. the velocity of .22 LR.
.32/.40/.45 cal round balls do this well, but 50 cal and up get heavy recoil to go 'crack'
the smaller the cal the more you notice the 'crack'

[kenyerian]

I would try some 530's with pillow ticking patches.

[quilbilly]

You are going to love your Seneca. I have had mine for almost 25 years and it has been superbly accurate with both sabots with 358 cast boolits and round ball. I no longer use sabots or conicals in the Seneca and just stick with round ball. Patched round ball in my 45 has been devastating on deer out to 100 yards with the biggest mule deer being about 220# on the hoof. My load has always been 55 gr of FFF Goex black powder. Sadly a few years back I took a tumble while dragging a deer out and broke part of the stock so have since been using duct tape to hold it together but I think it may shoot even better.

[fouronesix]

the 'crack' you hear is the projectile going supersonic.
when you hear it 'crack' you have reached the upper end of ML performance.
muzzle loader round balls operate at approx. the velocity of .22 LR.
.32/.40/.45 cal round balls do this well, but 50 cal and up get heavy recoil to go 'crack'
the smaller the cal the more you notice the 'crack'

The Old Wive's Tale, "increase load until you hear the crack", has been around a long. I haven't found it to be true or false. I think the "crack" heard can be either the bullet or the gas. In most cases, the gas velocity exiting the muzzle is far greater than the bullet.

And yes, increase the BP load, especially under something like a heavy conical in a small/light 50 or 54 caliber ML rifle and at some point the "crack" sound and even accuracy may become secondary to uncomfortable or intolerable recoil.

[Golfswithwolves]

"First the powder, then the ball". A very important basic rule to remember, and easy to forget. Don't ask how I learned this.

[waksupi]

I too like round balls and recommend them as they are perfectly adequate for hunting most game in the US. Your Renegade will have a "middle of the road" twist rate, which may also allow you to shoot a heavier conical with decent results. You may try both and see how your particular rifle shoots them, and settle in on whatever you like and are comfortable with. Personally, I find an 80gr FF load under a patched 0.530 RB excellent for my shooting/hunting, but I also have a slower twist to the rifling on my barrel.

I would probably start about 60 grains and shoot groups of 3 or 5 at whatever range I planned on doing most of my shooting/hunting. Increase the charge in either 5 or 10 grain increments (whatever you can reasonably measure) and see when your grouping starts to open up. Back it back down to the last charge that shot well and you have the best combination at the highest velocity for your rifle.

The key is consistency. Do the same thing each shot until you find what works best. I tend to tap my measure a couple times to "settle in" the powder charge before knocking off the excess. I also tap the side of the stock near the lock to help settle the powder into the drum before loading the patch/ball for more reliable ignition. Apply the same amount of pressure to the ball over the charge, seating it firmly.

You will also get into other habits, such as a spit patch between shots to swab out the barrel, and doing a more thorough cleaning every "x" number of shots because you know the fouling plays too much with the accuracy if you let it go longer.

Hunting with traditional equipment is VERY satisfying, especially when you start making your own stuff like equipment and projectiles. One day I'm going to try making my own powder...

Your two posts cover the territory pretty well. I'll give you a 99.46% rating on it. Some of the other posts run from enlightened, to foolish, to damn right dangerous. But then again, I'm a cantankerous old grey beard with ml's/

[OnHoPr]

There has been good advise given. First off Read up on how to CLEAN your smokepole. The patched round ball is a devastating hunting boolit and a good practice boolit. A suggestion of different patch thicknesses and lubes will help in the accuracy department. You actually don't know the actual dimensions of the bore and its tendencies yet along with the balls in hand. If you get a mold you can do experimenting on different methods of casting to get into the real fine tuning of accuracy. Consistency in loading concerning barrel wipes and loading pressure will help. I don't think it is necessary to bounce the ramrod after you seat the ball in a clean barrel.

[Boogieman]

With your short [26"] barrel You might want to try 3f powder. 80gr. of 3f will equal 95 gr. of 2f with less fouling. 50gr. makes a nice target load in my Lyman Plains Rifle. Using moose milk for patch lub. I can shoot a full match [[40-50] shots with out wiping. My barrel is very smooth .it's been shot 5000+ rounds