for a lovely rifle, why are Mauser battle sights so tiny and difficult to use?

[sthwestvictoria]

I have a FN Mauser 98 that has been re-bored to 35 whelen (moderately common from the 1960-1970's here in Victoria for chasing large Sambar deer. Gunsmith Peter Davern was the main fellow doing this). It does not like feeding cast bullets so now I have a Win M70 for cast in the 35 whelen which is lovely.

I was gifted some Hornady jacketed 180grain .358 so decided to see how they would work in the Mauser. The Mauser is between scopes at the moment after breaking one so I thought I would pull the rail off and see what the original battle sights are like. They are tough to use! I will confess I wear glasses but at 37 years old vision is quite good. I love apertures sights on the 30-30 and 39a marlin.
The issue Mauser battle sights are so small! With such an otherwise reliable rifle very well suited to battle, those tiny, poor contrasting rear V and Front pyramid /\ must have been a trial to shoot with. How could the rifle man be expected to hit targets in low light, poor contrast or moving? Compared to the solider proof flip up aperture sights with square post front sight on the Enfield IV which make a good deal of sense.

However I was fairly happy - these two loads shoot quite well to the point of aim at 100metres with the rear bar set to 100. hold was to 6 o'clock on each target.
108403
Am I just complaining or are the tiny Mauser issue sights an odd choice for a battle rifle? Was it something about infantry training at the time?

As an aside does anyone know why there are numbers marked on the underside of the rear sight slider, it just seems to duplicate the upper most markings. One internet forum post suggested it was so you could adjust the sight without removing it from your shoulder?
http://mauser98k.internetdsl.pl/portugal/k98%209.JPG

[Mk42gunner]

Most Mauser rifle sights were holdovers from the 19th century, when rifles were basically ill handling pikes once the bayonet was attached. I guess they figured the average 18-21 year old draftee/ conscript didn't need useable sights.

As far as I know, the first Mauser-ish rifle with decent battle sights was the British Pattern 13 which evolved into the P 14 and U.S. Model of 1917. Next would be the 03-A3 Springfield.

I never liked barleycorn sights even when I could still see.

Robert

[UBER7MM]

Those marking are in meters. But with reduced cast loads, you need to make a converstion take to account for any additional drop. Sorry not much help that.

[sthwestvictoria]

Those marking are in meters. But with reduced cast loads, you need to make a converstion take to account for any additional drop. Sorry not much help that.
However what I don't understand is why they are stamped on the top and bottom of the sight slider? Seems redundant but there must be a reason. Rifle grenade use?

[gew98]

The mauser barleycorn sights are some of the best combat sights...easy to train to use , hard to damage. Rifles with such sights that have a wrap around the rear sight handguard are problematic as it hurts sight picture acquisition bad ( Kar98a , Vz24 for example ) . You want to talk about tiny useless and delicate combat sights you need to talk about 1903 springyfields , Ross straightpullers , US Krags of all models !. Combat rifles having "target shooter" and or delicate irons come out of the gate negative from the get go.

[gew98]

However what I don't understand is why they are stamped on the top and bottom of the sight slider? Seems redundant but there must be a reason. Rifle grenade use?

This feature was to allow a soldier to adjust sight settings without much movement to expose himself. A feature deemed not needed and discarded by germany starting in late 1942 on 98k production.

[Fishman]

The older I get, the more attractive Enfield # 4 ' s become. It is a well designed battle rifle, especially the sights.

[Larry Gibson]

This feature was to allow a soldier to adjust sight settings without much movement to expose himself. A feature deemed not needed and discarded by germany starting in late 1942 on 98k production.

This is correct. The range on the bottom of the sights allowed sight adjustment based on range commands from NCO or officer for volley and long range fire which was quite common during the latter part and early part of the 19th and 20th centuries. It was quite effective if done correctly. The longer ranges could quickly be adjusted from the shooting position w/o having to lower the rifle.

As to the sight picture of the Mauser sights. Really quite effective and accurate when you get used to them. Still have to focus on the front sight and keep proper sight alignment and sight picture. Easier to do with a little practice and you'll be surprised how the groups tighten. I can shoot as well with the Mauser sights as with those open sights on the M1903, SMLE, Arisaka's and MNs. These days with my eyes and glasses I can hold about 2 moa. I could do much better back in the day..........good eye sight for shooting is wasted on youth.

Larry Gibson

[nicholst55]

...good eye sight for shooting is wasted on youth.

Larry Gibson

Ain't it the truth! :razz:

[TNsailorman]

The nail head has been hit. The military sights are for young 18 to 22 year old eyes, not 73+ ol men like me. Its not so much the rear sight I have trouble with these days, its clearing up the fuzzy front sight long enough to squeeze one off. old jim

[sthwestvictoria]

Thank you for the useful replies. I'll persevere, maybe I need to smoke the front sight or apply some red nail polish. I should also use a target with more contrast. I usually use an inverted triangle cut from red paper with the aperture sighted lever guns.

[I'll Make Mine]

Its not so much the rear sight I have trouble with these days, its clearing up the fuzzy front sight long enough to squeeze one off.

I'm a round twenty years younger than you, but I finally found a way to get the front sight in focus: I wear my "indoor" glasses, which are +1.75 diopter from my driving prescription. That's actually a little close for my full length MN 91/30 (the +1.25 reading prescription I used to have is just right -- I'll remember to ask the doc for that next time I update my glasses). Now, if I could only see the targe when I'm focused on the front sight. But, I can shoot close to 2 MoA from a rest over my Mosin's irons if I wear my outside glasses and let the front sight blur just a bit...

[mikeym1a]

I have a FN Mauser 98 that has been re-bored to 35 whelen (moderately common from the 1960-1970's here in Victoria for chasing large Sambar deer. Gunsmith Peter Davern was the main fellow doing this). It does not like feeding cast bullets so now I have a Win M70 for cast in the 35 whelen which is lovely.

I was gifted some Hornady jacketed 180grain .358 so decided to see how they would work in the Mauser. The Mauser is between scopes at the moment after breaking one so I thought I would pull the rail off and see what the original battle sights are like. They are tough to use! I will confess I wear glasses but at 37 years old vision is quite good. I love apertures sights on the 30-30 and 39a marlin.
The issue Mauser battle sights are so small! With such an otherwise reliable rifle very well suited to battle, those tiny, poor contrasting rear V and Front pyramid /\ must have been a trial to shoot with. How could the rifle man be expected to hit targets in low light, poor contrast or moving? Compared to the solider proof flip up aperture sights with square post front sight on the Enfield IV which make a good deal of sense.

However I was fairly happy - these two loads shoot quite well to the point of aim at 100metres with the rear bar set to 100. hold was to 6 o'clock on each target.
108403
Am I just complaining or are the tiny Mauser issue sights an odd choice for a battle rifle? Was it something about infantry training at the time?

As an aside does anyone know why there are numbers marked on the underside of the rear sight slider, it just seems to duplicate the upper most markings. One internet forum post suggested it was so you could adjust the sight without removing it from your shoulder?
http://mauser98k.internetdsl.pl/portugal/k98%209.JPG

You have to remember that war is a young man's game, and the eyes of young men are much acute. The sights were developed for the initial cartridge, and proved acceptable for field use within a given range. When longer ranged precision shooting was required, they developed optical sights for the rifles. Custom gunsmiths often put receiver 'peep' sights on their offerings, which are much easier to use. I used to mock the 'old timers' for using scopes for their shooting, when i could do as well with my open sights or 'peep' sights. BUT, now that I am one of the 'old timers', I find the use of at least a 'peep' sight or an optical sight greatly enhances my accuracy, and lowers my frustration. Just my view of things. mikey

[robertbank]

My Longbranch #4 went from "It will shoot 4" groups at 100 yards sometimes to 1" groups all the time" when I installed a scope on the gun. Funny how that works. The gun is a treasure using 314 sized boolits down the barrel. Nothing to do with my 69 year old eyes of course.:sad:

Take Care

Bob

[JRR]

If you take a jewler's file of flat, rectangular shape the "V" notch can be opened up to a flat bottomed shape. This will allow more light around the front sight.

Another good way is to file the rear notch round and then glueing a small washer to it creating a peep.

[sthwestvictoria]

I reshot the top group after both painting the foresight white and using a target with more contrast and was rewarded:
http://i59.tinypic.com/ws9zc9.jpg
108675
Much improved. The flier was not called so either that is as good at the group gets or I just need to keep practicing. I may trial again with the foresight smoked and see if that is any better. However even with including the flier the group is 3 3/8" so far better than previously and shoots to point of aim with stock sights and this load. I would be happy with it if that was all I had! And any day is a fun day to shoot the mauser, working the bolt hard snick/snick, flinging brass off a metre!