What makes one power more useful than another similar powder?

[cbriggs57]

Unique. Bullseye. 2400. Why are they so sacrosanct? what makes Unique, for example, so much more useful than a dozen other powders of similar burn rate and bulk? Is there really some (pardon the pun) unique characteristic to one particular powder, or is it just the fact that they've been around so long and have huge volumes of data for their use? Considering the run on components recently, an understanding of what makes powders useful in which situations seems more important than ever.

[jmort]

Based on the way you put it, nothing. But those three are real good. I only use Alliant powder, but there is no reason not to use other powders that are versatile.

[btroj]

Generally it is a matter of picking the best powder for a specific loading.

the powders you mention aren't always the best for a specific situation but they are generally very good choices in a wife range of situations.

some powders are good in a single situation, a few are good in many situations.

multitaskers are always a good thing.

[DrCaveman]

Those three: a huge volume of established, field-tested load data, from a variety of sources, including bullet mfgrs, reloading equip mfrgs, individual testers, and powder mfgrs, all agreeing (more or less) on specs for particular results

I think the nuts of it is that each of those three powders performs acceptably within a variety of charge weights & load details. That is what makes a powder useful

Other things that seem quite useful:

-ability to use in a wide variety of calibers. Ive used unique in 38 spl, 45 acp, 460 s&w, 30-30, 30-06, 45-70. Performed acceptably in all, the only one where i like it best is 38spl. Red dot has also been used in a huge number of different calibers, as has trail boss. You wont ever get max velocity out of these powders in larger cartridges

-ability to excel with light or heavier charge weights. Bullseye @ 3.8 gr is a killer load in my 45 acp and 5.0 gr is also lights out. On the flip side, h110 when downloaded even 10% can be terrible.

-primer insensitivity. This should probably be called 'reduced sensitivity'. 2400 has shot equally well for me with small pistol standard, SP magnum, large rifle standard, and LRMagnum. Brands included federal, cci, and winchester. No major changes between them all, as in: none jumped inches in POI, no squibs, no misfires.

-economical charge weight. This is a mixed bag because this means that the powder is faster than other options. That also means max velocity is lower than potential, and that the boolit may be getting a harder kick in the pants than is ideal. However, when a pound or four can be found, it's better to get 3000 rounds practice than 300 rounds of load development

-your local gun store has a good line with that supplier. If you're in the process of deciding which powder to stock up on at this point in the "shortage" (as i am), then the brand your store supplies should carry an influence on which powder you run with

Hope that helps. It is my mantra for powder searching these days. Ive found some possible additions to the Big Three you have listed but ive never used a few others that people seem to love, like herco, hs-6,hs-7,universal,green dot

[lylejb]

All three of those powders have huge versatility. With those 3 powders, you could make a functional load for ANY rifle, pistol, or shotgun.

Yes, I said any.

It may not be the ideal load in every case (especially in larger rifles) but it would work.

In a situation where you might not be able to get your ideal / favorite powder, having something on the shelf that works is comforting.

[Petrol & Powder]

Back when one could actually obtain powder.......the factors that made some propellants stand out are exactly what DrCaveman stated. Over the years some powders begin to stand out as being slightly better suited for a particular niche. My old goal was to find something that worked really well and then stop looking. Consistency and simple logistics have tremendous value to me. However, with the current powder situation we're finding value in powders that do many thing well.
btroj's comment, "multitaskers are always a good thing" is right on the money for our current situation.

I long for the days when I can return to my old standbys of WSF & WW231 but in the meantime I'll seek out the multitaskers and the "also works"

[jonp]

The qualifier here is "similar". In that case it is personal preference I think.

If in general one is better than others if it can be used in a number of calibers. Think Unique, Red Dot etc..in my opinion.

[cbriggs57]

I'm actually asking for some of the reasons all y'all have stated; versatility, availability, and available data. That said, the current, uh, "situation", has required me to try other powders, as I'm sure many of you have, too. Longshot shoots pretty well in 38 special +P loads, and I have AA4100, aka Ramshot Enforcer, that I'm going to try in place of 296/H110. Maybe there's a silver lining in this dearth if components. We may try new combinations and find new favorites.

[runfiverun]

I just swapped 8 pounds of unique for 15 pounds of the enforcer.
it'll make the 'rounds' until it finds a home then used up.
unique never has been my favorite powder but the per pound cost was always reasonable and it does the job in all of my handguns without any drama.

[johnny_xring]

I have reloaded for years but consider life as a continual learning curve. Due to manufacturers shortages we can all help in this (and other forums). I consider myself OK for supply of rifle powders/propellants (well, could always use more but) and have some stuff for handguns, but totally, almost, lacking in shotgun. I have used the surplus route since (?) probably 2004 but still utilize and believe in commercial powders. I have learned MUCH from this forum about 10B101 (lot # 91A-009) which helped me in developing cast loads for 30-30 (see the sticky in this forum). It seems to have broad applications in other calibers for cast loads and I will be working on those also. The main message is to read the posts and stickies and check out what works and what doesn't. I bought a small bunch of surplus, CR-1, from Jeff Bartlett (www.gibrass.com (http://www.gibrass.com)) back in 2006 or so. This stuff is the cat's meow for match .223 loading (69 and up jword boolits). Wish I had bought more. Oh well.

If I could only purchase one (1) powder right now it would be Unique. I can make it work in just about anything and make it work adequately--handgun (cast & jword), rifle (cast), shotshell (shot & slug).

Read the forum(s) and learn. We may not be out of this for awhile yet. I had primers on backorder for about a year in the mid 90s. We will survive this, it just has to run it's toll. My 2 cents worth.

JX

[NavyVet1959]

With the current powder availability (or lack thereof) situation, it pays to be willing to work with whatever you happen to have available. If you insist that you will only use a particular powder and that one is not available, you're not going to be doing that much shooting. As an engineer though, I figure that half the fun is experimenting. I actually tried a .50 BMG powder in a 10mm cartridge once, just for the 'ell of it. It will fire, but you would have to really be desperate for something to shoot before you would likely consider that an option. :)

[Elkins45]

The fact those powders have been around forever and that there is a TON of reloading data for them is a big factor. The lack of any really 'strange' characteristics is a help too. What I mean by this is that they aren't position sensitive, ignite easily, don't have spikey pressure curves and aren't unpredictible in reduced loads like 296/H-110 are.

[wv109323]

I agree with all that is said. It boils down to your favorite fishing hole or your favorite hunting spot. If you are successful you seem to back back naturally.

[L Ross]

I think another point is the fact that a lot of us, (more seasoned), reloaders learned our hobby quite a number of years ago and often our mentors were "seasoned" when they taught us. The manuals, articles, and books we read and learned from featured those three powders. I read, and read, and re-read the ABC's of Reloading by Dean Grinnell, Elmer's books and Skeeter's articles. Heck I still don't exactly trust that new fangled ball powder.

Right now I am testing some Vhitavuori powder I obtained recently and will publish my results when the chronographing and accuracy testing is finished. However, I wish I could still buy DuPont and Hercules powders. I just bought a new to me 1958 revolver, and powders that were already old timers in 1958 suit me just fine.

Duke

p.s. Can't you still imagine Dean's dismay when his shooting friend hurled the 6 empty 44 Spl. casings out into the dump. I felt his pain.

[MT Gianni]

This is where I miss Felix who would explain that similar burn rate may not mean similar peak pressure time and what that does for each individual cartridge. If we decide that 2400 is the best ever powder for a 357 does that mean for your 3" bbl or my 20" bbl? I may get a good load with 4320 in one 308 and another prefers 4064. For me we can guess close with burn rates but the target shows the proof.

[Larry Gibson]

Those 3 powders (Unique, Bullseye and 2400) have been around a long time. They have been of consistent uniformity lot to lot through all those years. The ignite easily and burn uniformly over a wide range of pressures giving excellent accuracy. They have broad application in handgun and rifle cartridges, especially with cast bullets, and there is tons of tried and true load data going back many, many years for their use. Until recently they have been reasonably priced and almost always available.

The above attributes are what makes those powders "so sacrosanct". When you use them you know they will work. Yes there are "newer" powders in the same burn range but "new" does not make any of those better. Nor does any of the "newer" powders obsolete those 3 powders. The "newer" powders are just "different" is all. I've found some "newer" powders similar in burn range to the 3 that work as well in some applications but none that work any better in those applications and a couple that don't work as well in as many applications.

Larry Gibson

[Bonz]

How clean a powder burns, How loud the report is, How bright the muzzle flash is, the ability to seat projectiles deeper in the case, Higher velocity with lower pressure, etc

[cbriggs57]

Those 3 powders (Unique, Bullseye and 2400) have been around a long time. They have been of consistent uniformity lot to lot through all those years. The ignite easily and burn uniformly over a wide range of pressures giving excellent accuracy. They have broad application in handgun and rifle cartridges, especially with cast bullets, and there is tons of tried and true load data going back many, many years for their use. Until recently they have been reasonably priced and almost always available.

The above attributes are what makes those powders "so sacrosanct". When you use them you know they will work. Yes there are "newer" powders in the same burn range but "new" does not make any of those better. Nor does any of the "newer" powders obsolete those 3 powders. The "newer" powders are just "different" is all. I've found some "newer" powders similar in burn range to the 3 that work as well in some applications but none that work any better in those applications and a couple that don't work as well in as many applications.

Larry Gibson
Mmhm. You're getting close to what I was trying to get at. I was wondering what characteristics the old standards have and which other powders duplicate those characteristics. This relates to the relative scarcity of some powders and availability of others. I'm trying to develop good quality, easily duplicated loads with lesser-known powders, which leads me to ask the original question. If you have good powders that fit that criterion I'd be interested to hear your experiences.

[DrCaveman]

Glancing through my lyman cast bullet #4, i see that in the pistols, Blue Dot enjoys a huge variety of cartridges with loads listed. Green Dot also does, and i see some pretty wide ranges of powder charge listed.

In the rifles (and a few big-boy pistols) it seems that sr-4759 and 5744 get the largest varieties of charge weights within a lot of calibers. Imr-4227 too, and you get pretty low max pressures with all three of those

Then Red Dot. What else is used in "every military bottleneck cartridge" (read about Harris' the Load) and also 32 auto and also 45 colt and 9mm luger?

I dont think any of those are particularly new, or lesser-known (among cast boolit shooters), and of course availability is hit and miss with ANY powder right now, but it might be a good start.

Of those listed, ive only ever used red dot and and imr-4227. Totally fine results, not max velocity or accuracy but pretty decent, and no big surprises.

A much more exhaustive study could be made, and could be of great value to lots of people.

[NavyVet1959]

Then Red Dot. What else is used in "every military bottleneck cartridge" (read about Harris' the Load) and also 32 auto and also 45 colt and 9mm luger?

When the powder shortage first struck a few years ago, one of the few powders that I could get was Alliant Promo (Red Dot, but without the red specks in it). I bought a couple of kegs of it and have been able to use it in all of my calibers. It might not be the optimal powder for the caliber, but it was good enough to keep me shooting when others were waiting for their pet powder to become available. I've used it in 9mm, .38, .357, .40SW, 10mm, .44 special, .44 mag, .45ACP, .223, .45-70, .308, and some others. I'm currently building a .300AAC pistol and I'll use Promo in it also. It's not a rifle powder, so it's definitely not optimal for some of the rifles I've used it in, but the paper didn't know the difference. It's better to have something that will go bang than to be sitting home complaining about not being able to find *anything* to shoot. The fact that it is probably one of the cheaper powders to reload with is an added bonus. :)

[searcher4851]

I've never tried 2400, but Unique, Bullseye, and Red Dot can get a fella through any powder shortage. The versatility of these powders along with the volumes of load data available for these powders makes them invaluable to me. I've never owned a gun that used a cartridge that could not be loaded with one of these powders acceptably. JMHO