Who does .44-40 Rugers?

[Outpost75]

Anybody have a .44-40 Ruger? How does it shoot, what are barrel and cylinder diameters, and what results have you gotten?

I'm only interested in full power, 92 Winchester level hunting loads, no mouse fart stuff.

[Mohillbilly]

A blackhawk size frame will hold up to 92 or 94 Winchester loads .The problem is Ruger put .429 barrels on a cartridge that would require a .427, Jacketed bullets will do best as the " fit " is a little loose .

[contender1]

Buckeye Sports did a convertible several years ago. The easiest thing would be to have a custom cylinder done for one now.

[Green Frog]

FWIW, Ruger sold a small number of 44 Mag/44-40 combo Blackhawks about 20+ years ago... they were a special item marketed as Buckeye Specials through that now-defunct(?) Ohio company. I had the companion gun to that one, a 32 H&R/32-20 combo that I regret selling more than I can say. :cry:

I would think any of the custom gunsmiths who specialize in this type of work (Bowen, Clemmons, Horvath, etc) would be able to build you one, but as has been said, starting from an existing 44 Mag might result in an over-sized bore... a true 44-40 will probably require a custom barrel, especially if you want to use it in combination with an existing 44-40 rifle.

Froggie

[No_1]

I have Buckeye's in 32-20 / 32 H&R and also 38-40 / 10MM Magnum. I was not aware they made one in 44 Mag / 44-40 but do have a Vaquaro in 44-40 with a 44 Special cylinder for it. Having the .429 barrel is actually a bonus since .429 bullets are what we find as common these days. The problem I had with the Vaquaro I have and also one my Dad has was the cylinder was severely undersized due to the .427 dia of the 44-40. I have reamed the cylinders to match the barrel and things are much better now.

[45 2.1]

I read an article long ago (about 35 years ago) where the fellow took a 44 mag Super Blackhawk and reamed the 44 mag cylinder to 44-40. Alas, I cannot remember much more about it other than it seemed to work out fine for him. You might check out the dimensions involved and see what you could do.

[Larry Gibson]

My "Nawl'ins" pimp gun Ruger OM Vaquero in 44-40 Shoots very well indeed. I have pinned the throats and they are .429 and the groove diameter is .429. Since the throats are also slightly tapered I use .430 sized cast bullets though I've found a couple makes of cases need a .429 sized cast bullet as the chamber necks are pretty tight. So far W-W cases are working out best. I have worked up to mid range 44 Magnum loads with the TL429-240-SWC w/o any problems. I recently acquired a new Lyman 4 cavity 429360 mould (232 gr SWC) and intend on working up some "top end" Ruger only loads with 2400. Since the 44-40 has about 10% more case capacity I intend to use 44 Magnum data and work up assuming the tapered case will bind up the cylinder before the max 44 load is reached? Haven't even cast the bullets yet but I expect very good results. Only draw back I have is the fixed sights so zero may be the "end game".

Larry Gibson

108279

[Finster101]

Larry, isn't the 44-40 case pretty thin? I understand that the cylinder will support it but I thought you couldn't hotrod 44-40 because of the cases. I don't know, I'm asking.

James

[Outpost75]

Yes, I will use the existing .429 Ruger factory barrel, as my intent is to have a "convertible" revolver which will use the same bullets I use in the .44 Magnum. I need chamber necks large enough to accept .431 bullets loaded in Starline brass, and will seat 260-grain bullets out to 1.70" overall for the longer Ruger cylinder, not having to worry about maintaining factory overall cartridge length for magazine feeding. I intend on rechambering a .44 Mag.H&R Handi Rifle barrel to .44-40.

Anbody have a reamer print?

[DougGuy]

You are going to have to get Dave Manson to custom grind you a one-off reamer for this project if you must carry on with it. My question would be this.. Why would you want to go to the trouble of chambering a cylinder for 44-40 brass when it is thinner and weaker than 44 magnum, the power level for the 44-40 is nowhere near what the 44 magnum is, and for all the $$ you are going to spend to do this, you will be launching the same boolits that you use in the 44 magnum, just slower, and making it a PITA to reload for. Nothing will fit, you have to ream everything, even the dies won't be large enough for your chosen boolit diameter. By the time you get it all done and shooting, you will likely be scratching your head in wonderment as to why you even went to this much trouble, when the 44 magnum already does exactly what you want to do with this hot rodded 44-40.

[historicfirearms]

Nice looking gun there Larry. Did the sights regulate easily shooting it pimp style, you know -sideways?:bigsmyl2:

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, isn't the 44-40 case pretty thin? I understand that the cylinder will support it but I thought you couldn't hotrod 44-40 because of the cases. I don't know, I'm asking.

James

Yes it is a bit thinner in the neck area. But most often a tapered cartridge will "tie up" or jam a revolver with higher psi loads. I do not plan on exceeding 44 Magnum loads in the 44-40 case with its 10% greater case capacity. Thus the psi will be held to 30 - 32,000 psi which the older Model Vaquero is fully capable of handling. I have no Idea yet even if I will get loads into that psi range before jamming of the cylinder happens. If any one has tread this ground I would appreciate hearing from them? Especially with cast bullets heavier than 200 gr.

Outpost75

The 44-40 has a short neck designed around a 200 gr bullet. I've found 240 gr and some 250 gr cast bullets when seated to the crimp groove will have the bottom drive band and part of the lube groove down inside the powder space below the neck. I don't care for that. You might but those 260 gr cast bullets are probably going to have to be seated quite deep if crimping in the crimp groove is desired?

Larry Gibson

[Outpost75]

[QUOTE=Larry Gibson;2826252
Outpost75

The 44-40 has a short neck designed around a 200 gr bullet. I've found 240 gr and some 250 gr cast bullets when seated to the crimp groove will have the bottom drive band and part of the lube groove down inside the powder space below the neck. I don't care for that. You might but those 260 gr cast bullets are probably going to have to be seated quite deep if crimping in the crimp groove is desired?

Larry Gibson[/QUOTE]

The Accurate bullet I am using measures .295" from base to crimp groove, and should permit seating in the standard neck. The head length from crimp groove to meplat is .395", which produces a 1.70" cartridge OAL which is happy in the Ruger cylinder.

[DougGuy]

Here is your 44-40 SAAMI specs Dave says he grinds reamers on the tight side of these specs:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/44-40Winchester_zpsb2cd4570.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/44-40Winchester_zpsb2cd4570.jpg.html)

[Harry O]

I bought one of the new Ruger 44-40's back in the early 1990's and my son bought one, too. Both had horribly mismatched dimensions and could not shoot worth a darn with soft-cast, hard-cast, or jacketed bullets. After two trips back to Ruger, where they refused to fix it, I sent it to a gunsmith. He opened up the cylinder throat from 0.424" to 0.430" with a straight reamer to match the barrel. He did not have a chambering reamer to open up the front of the chamber and it cost too much to have him machine each one out separately in a lathe. So, I am limited to 0.427" maximum bullet diameter. Even so, the throat change alone cut the group sizes to 1/3 of what they were before.

I spent some time with a soft lead bullet and Bullseye. It did reasonable, but never great. I bought some Uberti 38-40's afterward and they were accurate right out of the box. I put the 44-40's away for about a decade. A few years ago, I decided to load some hot loads in Starline brass with jacketed soft-points. That load is about as accurate as the earlier soft-lead load. I have it loaded up to also be used in a (also 1990's) Marlin 1894 44-40 (with microgroove rifling) and the Ruger. It is just under what Elmer Keith loaded his .44 Special to (18.0gr of 2400 with a 200gr half-jacketed soft-point). I have only loaded the some of the cases 2 to 3 times so far, but have not had any indications of case separation.

What the heck. I figure they will be better house defense guns than the AR-15. Besides, they look better.

[Harry O]

BTW, the load I listed above is way above original 44-40 load pressures. It should NEVER be used in any original or smaller gun. Both the Marlin and the Ruger are modern guns with modern steel that are also chambered in .44 Magnum. The load listed above is less than a full power .44 Magnum load.

[Outpost75]

Just for clarification, I'm not trying to make a .44-40 "Magnum", but would like to get about 1000 fps from a revolver with 260-grain bullets of soft 1:30 alloy, using probably 6.5-7 grains of Bullseye, and I want to experiment with those same loads in a suitably chambered rifle. I want something comfortable to shoot and adequate for 100-yard gong matches and the occasional deer or coyote.

[Finster101]

Okay, another question to show my ignorance. I have a Colt New Frontier SAA 44-40 built late 70's early 80's I bought it new from the Rod & Gun Club in Bamberg I think 1980. How strong is that pistol. Again, I'm just asking.

[DougGuy]

The Colt New Frontier will take factory loads or handloads using published data til the cows come home. It may take a little more than standard pressure, but then again anything beyond standard pressure loads is why they invented Rugers.

OP, there is nothing wrong really with wanting a cartridge to do what you are asking of it, it just seems like for it to be done in the 44-40 cartridge, there are numerous obstacles created where doing the same job in the straight walled .44 magnum cartridge casing would be a piece of cake, and has already been done by many. If you were going to download a magnum cartridge, the very last thing you would want would be a case with even more capacity internally.

If you follow the numerous threads here about land/groove diameter of .44 caliber leverguns, you would know that there are several well known examples that simply will not shoot with anything smaller than about a .432" boolit, which most .44 caliber molds don't even drop a boolit that large and have to be beagled or a custom mold used. 44-40 expander plugs are made for a boolit measuring .427" and they won't even work with most .44 magnum brass, sized brass is already bigger than the expander plug so it just falls inside the case mouth.

Without making a custom reamer to cut the specs of just the neck of the chamber, none of the 44-40 chambers that I have ever seen will take a .431" or .432" boolit. There may be some, but I am unaware of them.

44-40 dies are made for .427" boolits as well, and so you have to re-engineer the complete ball of wax and every single component has to be modified or custom made to accommodate the larger-than-caliber boolit diameter in the 44-40 case.

1000f/s with a 260gr boolit can be accomplished in .44 Special cases, within standard .44 Special pressures. You could use a new model Ruger on the medium frame, and do that with one chambered in .44 Special, and still be within the 23,000psi pressure ceiling of those medium frame revolvers.

[Larry Gibson]

Nice looking gun there Larry. Did the sights regulate easily shooting it pimp style, you know -sideways?:bigsmyl2:

Now why didn't I think of that:groner:

Larry Gibson

[Outpost75]

DougGuy,

All good info, thanks very much. My reasoning is simply that I want to add a convertible cylinder to my Sandy Garrett customized .44 Mag. revolver I already own. I've wanted to simply tinker with the .44-40 in the Ruger purely for academic curiosity and because I wanted to kill some game firing black powder in it. I'm entirely OK with having a custom reamer ground to get the custom dimensions I need, it is simply a matter of finding someone to make the cylinder and fit it. I'm comfortable with previous work done for me by Sandy Garrett, Jerry Kieffer, and John Taylor. There are several others out there who specialize in doing over Rugers. I've spoken with Al Story and Hamilton Bowen, and would also feel comfortable with either of them doing the work.

I don't see this as rocket science. I just want to go through a planning and thought process to get working ideas firmly in my head before proceeding. The Starline brass I plan on using exclusively has a mouth wall thickness of 0.0065-0.007". In a min. SAAMI chamber this permit minimal safe clearance for up to a .430 bullet, but that is pushing it. I reconfirmed by slugging that my .44 Magnum Ruger cylinder has .432" cylinder throats and barrel groove diameter is .429. I want to match these diameters with the .44-40.

To be able to use a .432 bullet as-cast, which my mold does, then I'm looking at a .448 chamber neck and .432 cylinder throats.

All it takes is money.... This gun will probably never see a factory .44-40 load or a jacketed bullet. I have hoillowpoint and solid molds custom bored to fit my .44 Magnum Ruger which outshoot my match .45 ACP guns off a Ransom Rest and I would intend to seat them long to 1.70" overall cartridge length in .44-40 brass. Then I may try them with Holy Black just for fun over next deer season.

I submit that I am certifiably nuts, and am happy in this condtion.

[w30wcf]

Speaking of black powder...... The heaviest bullet I have shot in the .44-40 with b.p. in my rifle (Marlin Cowboy) is the Lyman 429667 which is cataloged at 240 grs. but weighs 248 grs in w.w. I reported the good results on the "Team 44-40" forum at Marlin Owners. SInce this bullet does not carry a lot of lube, the type of b.p. used is important to keep the barrel from fouling out in a rifle barrel. Swiss and Olde Enysford would be the powders of choice for trouble free shooting for many rounds.

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/team-44-40/118717-240-gr-bullets-44-40-a.html

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/team-44-40/

w30wcf

[Outpost75]

109049 John, have you used heeled bullets with black in the .44-40? This new one from Accurate looks like it might have possibilities.

[McLintock]

I wanted a similar convertible and took a New Model 30 Carbine cylinder I had and had it bored to 44-40 with .429" throats, and put it with my Old Model Flattop 44 for shooting black powder loads. Worked like a charm, but have only shot normal 200 gr cast in it. Here's a pic:
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1620/1303399/7384995/356603834.jpg
Additionally I made 44 Special/44-40 convertibles out of 3 screw 357's for Cowboy Action Shooting, but the 357 cylinder will only accommodate 200 gr'ers, they max it out as you can see in the pics below.
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1620/1303399/7384995/400098644.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1620/1303399/7384995/357812246.jpg
Makes for fun shooting guns with black powder.
McLintock

[Brad Phillips]

McLintock, I like the looks of the last picture!

I have a 55-XXXXX serial numbered Vaquero in .44-40, good shooter. And one I would never sell.

[Outpost75]

McClintock, you do the work yourself, or hire it out?

[Mohillbilly]

I do have a Williams house Ruger convertible .44 Rem mag .44-40 Win maybe 20 years . Accuracy is not as good on the 44-40 than the 44 rem .The two fixes are , change barrel or ream the throat . If you want to build one , chamber ream a 44 Rem with a 44-40 Win ream . That will be ok until you try to shoot your loads in a real 44-40 . If you change out the barrel you may not be able to shoot 44 mag hot loads . OR buy a .357 change the barrel to a .427 and ream the .357 cylinder with a 44-40 chamber ream .

[9.3X62AL]

Starline brass in 44-40 WCF caliber is sterner stuff than the R-P and W-W hulls I cut my teeth on with this caliber. At the neck, the SL is not quite .001" thicker, but is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than its counterparts. In my '73 Winchester (1897 original) and Uberti S/A (2012 Pasta Colta) both firearms prefer .429" cast bullets and can accommodate them with safe clearance in the SL brass. I'm not running SAECO #446 (200 grain flatnose) past 900 FPS in the sideiron or 1150 FPS in the carbine (14.0 grains of 2400), but there it is for what it might be worth.

[Outpost75]

This is all helpful.. Contacted Al Story at Borchardt Rifle Co., he said he was busy, call.back in a month.