Need information on vintage bullet forming dies and press

[witsgarand]

I have a vintage bullet forming die set made by Biehler and Astles. I think it is for .224 bullets and it comes with a jacket forming die for use with spent .22 lr cases. I would appreciate any info on using these dies. I will post pictures if there is interest in these dies. I also have the original instruction sheet but seems like "greek" to me. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[runfiverun]

welcome to the forum.
a picture would definitely help you get the advice needed to either get you started or to get the rest of the tools you need to use what you have.

[witsgarand]

108219108220I hope these pictures help.

[MrWolf]

I can't see the attachments.

[Doc_Stihl]

I'd be interested in more information and pics as well. I picked up an incomplete set last year and I've been working on finding the missing bits.

[witsgarand]

http://s5.photobucket.com/user/witsgarand/library/Biehler%20bullet%20making%20dies?sort=3&page=1

[Doc_Stihl]

Super cool.
That set looks like it uses a different punch holder than my press/ram setup has. Looks like a lot of extra dies. Are the different inserts on the right hand picture marked with different profiles? I think they should be stamped on the bottom face.

[runfiverun]

that's a set up for the pacific press.
you had to change out the rams to use the different punches..

[witsgarand]

all seem to be flat faced except for one that looks like it is for a pointed bullet. Two have a slightly radius rounded surface. I do not know what to do with this stuff. If it is worth anything, I would like to sell it or trade it.

[Doc_Stihl]

I'd be interested. I have a nearly complete set and would love to have a useable set.

[Danth]

I too have a nearly complete set and would love to purchase that which I lack. Thanks, Dan

[witsgarand]

perhaps we can negotiate a trade of some kind so no one will feel bad if they don't get it.

[Doc_Stihl]

I've got a bunch of stuff to trade. I have a post in the swapping and selling. I'll get you a list asap. I'm on my phone right now.

[Bent Ramrod]

The big one on the upper left with the T handle in your first picture looks like a Rock Chuck Bullet Swage die. The smooth cylindrical top should unscrew from the threaded bottom using the T handle with a half turn. The top will have the point former and the bottom the cylindrical section of the die. Look for a small "RCBS" marking. Sometimes the patent date and even the caliber were marked. There should be a streak of red enamel along the threads so the two pieces can be screwed together the same way each time. The rest of the stuff in the picture might be some extras from RCBS or might have been made elsewhere; hard to tell at that magnification.

The second picture looks more like B&A dies and their accessories.

Wow, whatta haul!

[Pavogrande]

I agree about the die in upper left being a rcbs - rockchucker

[Utah Shooter]

Mod. Do the rules of swapping and selling not apply here? Not to be a rude. I am more than sure "Newer members must be here 30 days and have 25 relevant posts (+1 and me too don't count)". This thread should be deleted if it is for selling purposes.

[witsgarand]

I guess I didn't read the fine print in the rules. I will not offer to sell or trade these tools on this site. I will just ask how the tools are to be used. I am interested in how they can be used to make .224 bullets as the previous owner shot some very tight groups in the 1950's. I have his rifle and it still shoots outstanding groups. It is a .224 Pfiefer based on a Krag case. Any info on this case would be greatly appreciated also.

The tool in the right picture is indeed an RCBS tool marked in red on both sections. Inside the T handle is marked 25. The cavity looks like a bullet shape. Can I assume that it is for forming .25 bullets?

[runfiverun]

joe you are correct in the number of day's and posts to sell here.
the purpose of this is so that the other members can gauge the seller/swapper a little bit.

[skeettx]

B&A swaging dies are top of the line and well respected

Mike

some readings

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?78835-B-amp-A-dies-on-ebay

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?75990-Swaging-bullets

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y194/witsgarand/Biehler%20bullet%20making%20dies/bulletdies2.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/witsgarand/media/Biehler%20bullet%20making%20dies/bulletdies2.jpg.html)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y194/witsgarand/Biehler%20bullet%20making%20dies/bulletmakingdies.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/witsgarand/media/Biehler%20bullet%20making%20dies/bulletmakingdies.jpg.html)

[Bent Ramrod]

Witsgarand,

Yes, it is likely your Rock Chuck Bullet Swage is for .25 caliber. Check for "RCBS" markings on the other tools in your photo. RCBS eventually offered .22 rimfire jacket ironing dies, core swaging and core seating dies to customers as the swaging process got better understood and the groups at benchrest matches started tightening up as a result. Bullets made in RCBS dies held records for several years.

Bullets could be made with the two piece RCBS die set which were good enough for varmint shooting (Fred Huntington named the Swage and his Company after his favorite quarry, the Western Rock Chuck) by cutting off a piece of lead wire, putting it into the jacket, and swaging it in the die set in one operation. A punch of the proper length was put in the ram, the core and jacket inserted in the bottom of the die, and the lever raised to see how far the assembly was pushed into the die. By screwing the die deeper into the top of the press, eventually the point would form. Then a slightly longer punch was put on the ram, the top of the die removed and the bullet pressed upwards out of the die. Bullets could then be made at that die setting until the jackets and cores (or the operator) were exhausted.

For the finest accuracy, separate operations for ensuring the same weight of cores and the full contact of the interior of the jacket with the core was needed. As I mentioned, RCBS started offering these dies as accessories. Biehler and Astles swept the field a few years later with their die sets, which used the "expand-up" principle. Here, the core was swaged a few thousandths smaller than the jacket in its own die. This bled a little lead away under pressure, ensuring a repeatable volume, to eliminate voids. The core was then swaged into the jacket in a second die, a core seating die. This die was slightly larger than the jacket, to ensure the jacket would spring back after the pressure was released and grip the lead core tightly. Finally the point former was made to expand the filled jacket as it brought the bullet fully up to size. This ensured a very close repeatability in weight, with no voids in the core or looseness between core and jacket. Dies using the B&A principle are still state of the art today.

Most swaging dies of the period were made for Pacific presses, which was the most common one around then. However, Huntington invented his type A, O-frame compound leverage press especially to use his swage dies and secondarily to reload ammunition. He typically offered supplemental rams without the cutout for priming arms to fit the customer's press, or his press. If you can figure out what press your set fits, you should be able to figure out which pieces do what.

I have a few pictures of my own set on the Bullet Swaging section of the Antique Reloading Tool Collectors' Forum.

According to Landis, the .224-30-40 Pfeifer Rimmed Magnum was a shortened and necked down .30-40 Krag case that held around 30 grains of 3031, 4320 or 4064 and bullets of 50 to 55 or 60 grains weight, with charges reduced accordingly as bullet weight increased. Rifling twist could be 14" or 16", and either worked well. At the time of writing (1947) Joe Pfeifer had made over 600 rifles up for this wildcat using .30-40 or .303 British brass and nary a complaint had come back. They were mostly made on single shot actions.

[witsgarand]

Thank you for all of you input. I can't seem to find my files on the gentleman I bought the dies from. He was an avid benchrester in the late 40's and early 50's. I have his rest that adjusts for elevation, windage and cant. It is a very complicated rest. I use it today even though it is difficult to adjust. I have a lot of his paperwork, load development and correspondence to B&A regarding difficulties he found and possible fixes. I can't remember where I put it all. I remember he shot a record group that he sent to the NRA with the .224 Pf. It is built on a pre-war model 70 and wears an apex heavy barrel. It still shoots sub 1/2 min groups. Perhaps you will be able to explain how to use the dies.

[Bent Ramrod]

Corbin's dies work on the same principles as the Biehler & Astles. He has a ton of info on his web site. Check this out:

http://www.corbins.com/swaging.htm

The Archivist of the Antique Reloading Tool Collectors' Association has a copy of the RCBS parts list and instruction sheet. The dues are $20 a year, very inexpensive for the resources you can access.

Again, you need to check the diameters of your punches and dies and figure out what works with what, and also what press they fit. You can damage a die very easily by running the wrong punch into it, or not having the punch on center with the hole in the die when you pull the lever.

If you do find those files I'd be glad to hear who your guy was. He may be listed in the records of some of the big shoots of the old days.

[witsgarand]

His name was clyde holdt. Very well respected in late 40's and 50's. He used Apex barrels when they were out here!!

[Bent Ramrod]

Thank you for the name of the shooter. I looked in my early copies of The Ultimate in Rifle Accuracy but failed to find a Clyde Holdt. But the publications of that time only had the results from back East and Seattle. My Precision Shooting magazines are unfortunately packed in boxes now. If I come across his name I'll let you know.

[witsgarand]

He lived in Burbank, CA. I only wish I could remember where I put his file. He had many targets and load data.

[GerryM]

fwiw Ray Beiler and Walt Astles perfected the expanding up process at RIT in Rochester NY/ A book was written about machine shop principals and it had chapters on the development of the bullet dies and special presses just for making bullets. I have a set and still use them at times They are a 6 ogive and make Benchrest quality bullets with a pressure ring of .0004 .
Hope this helps some.