Home heating options for Mom.

[southpaw]

OK, looking to put in a heating system for my Mom. The house was built 4 years ago, so it is well insulated. Looking into propane systems and she thinks that coal would be good. The cost of fuel oil kinda takes that option out.

We want something that would be reliable and easy to maintain. I was hoping the knowledgeable folks on here could point me in the right directions and cut my google time down.

Some specs that may help. The house is 28' x 48' and one and a half stories (~2000 square ft.) plus the basement (unfinished). The half upstairs is plumed for hot water baseboard (not in use) and it would not be hard to plum the rest of the house for it.

The upstairs doesn't get used much so 60 degrees or so would be fine there but she would like 70-75 for the main floor.

The house has been heated with a wood stove but is not very good. Not that I want to get her away from burning wood but I am gonna be busy enough getting firewood for myself.

I guess to summarize this mumble jumble I am looking for a system that would heat her house with as little attention as necessary (she has a tendency to be gone all day) and won't cost a fortune to feed. I guess I just need some things to look at so I can compare them. I never really considered there was any other source of heat than wood. :shock:

OK, note pad is ready.

Thanks!

Jerry Jr.

[doc1876]

how old is mom, and what is her health? what is her health going to be in 10 years? Where is this house? Arizona or Main? if the house is indeed insulated, and she is going to be gone a lot, I opt for the propane. She can turn it down, and have no fears of freezing pipes. it would be nice to have a wood for a backup if she is out in the country.

I do know a lady that had one heck of an insulating done on her house when it was built 18 years ago, and this was a large place. her heating bills for the year were less than $600 for propane. When she went to sell, no one would believe her, took two years to sell, and the people that bought are insanely happy, i guess so!!

[runfiverun]

natural gas..
set it and do whatever, it runs itself off and on, and don't need re-filled.

[Moonie]

I'd also suggest natural gas.

[lefty o]

natural gas, followed by propane. use a programmable thermostat.

[GhostHawk]

Forced air is considerably more efficient than hot water, however a boiler is probably the only way to get heat up to that hot water baseboard if it is in the attic. Boilers IMO do take more service, and you are doing good to get 60-70% effeciency for any length of time. (Soot buildup over time severely cuts efficiency) Force air can reach 90% efficiency and hold it for decades with minimal maintenance.

Natural gas if available is cheaper and more dependable than everything else.

Propane and Electric run about the same, with propane it does make a difference to own your own tank, a BIG one, and fill once a year in mid summer. Last year up in this area propane costs for 3 months were 2-4 times normal prices mid winter.

Find a reputable heating/cooling shop in the area arrange an appointment to look at the house,then sit down and talk about options.

[C.F.Plinker]

The first thing I would do is to run the numbers and see how many BTUs it will take to maintain a 70 degree or so indoor temperature with an outside temperature that you will see on a reasonably cold day. This will give you the size of the heating system required.

I've never used wood or coal but I imagine that someone will have to keep feeding the heating system throughout the day. If she wants to take vacations in the winter someone will have to house-sit for her if the house is to be kept above freezing. This in turn argues for a propane, natural gas, oil, or electric heating system if she will be away from the house either overnight or for several days at a time since they can run unattended. If the house is in a larger city natural gas and electric may be better options than propane, wood, or coal are.

From the sizing calculation you can determine the fuel requirements for an entire season. This will help you determine what type of system to install. Low equipment and installation costs may be offset by higher fuel and operating costs. A high efficiency furnace will be more expensive than a lower efficiency furnace but the fuel cost savings may pay for the difference in a few years.

The basement is unfinished. Is it feasible to install the ducting for a forced air delivery system? Is air conditioning in the future? When I was growing up air conditioning was unheard of. Now it is considered essential in many locations. I have friends in Butte that didn't need A/C when they built their house 15 or 20 years ago. They retrofitted it with A/C three years ago. As I got older I found that my comfort zone for temperatures narrowed considerably.

You may need to find a heating/ air conditioning contractor to work with you so you get a system that will work for years to come.

[altheating]

Southpaw, take a look at the Keystoker coal boilers or furnaces. I have sold many of them and have not had a single complaint from the homeowners. Big hoppers, easy to use, other than taking out the ash pan daily zero maintenance. I am running one myself, my SIL is swapping her wood boiler out for one next month. Being in PA your price for coal is really low. You can PM me for more info.

[Cornbread]

If you live in coal country like PA, WY, ND, SD, eastern MT etc. coal is cheaper than dirt no pun intended. If consistent electricity isn't an issue than the auto stoker furnaces are pretty amazing. If you have lots of electric outages in winter like we do here in Montana than a manual stoker is best. In my area of Montana wood is cheaper than coal, I get a log truck of logs delivered to my house and I cut it up(12 cord) then I go up and cut another 4 cord myself but I live up in the mountains and there are really only two months a year we don't run the wood furnace(July and August). Wood doesn't work well for older folks who have trouble getting around. Coal with an auto stoker is cheapest then(only if you live in coal country). After that natural gas or propane depending on your area will be the next cheapest alternative. Electricity is next expense wise for heat and after that fuel oil. That is the way it stacks up out here, those may be in different order depending on her location.

[shooter93]

Gas if it's available and propane if it's not. Personally I'd consider propane even if gas is available for a couple reasons. Buy the tank and at least a 1,000 gallon one. This lets you use any supplier and set it up as you'll call and not a scheduled delivery. It's easy enough for someone to look at the gauge for her. By calling around you can find some very good pricing. Here in Pa. we have some of the lowest cost propane in the country but I have seen prices up to a dollar a gallon difference. Even in the "great propane shortage" this past winter I never paid over 1.99 a gallon and just got enough then to see me through the "shortage" it's dropped considerably since then.

[southpaw]

altheating,

Thanks, that was what I was looking for. I will look into them.

Sorry guys, I am not the best for putting thoughts into words. My Mom is 65 and in pretty good health. For the most part she doesn't leave for more than part of the day, say 6-10 hrs. Sometimes all day but back in the evening and some days she is home all day. The house is here in north east Pa. I am close enough that I can help out. Having ac would be nice would be great but I am not sure if it is in the budget at this moment. Not to discount it but I would like to focus on getting the heat set before winter.

I guess what I was getting at before and I couldn't say was we are looking for the systems themselves. Like altheating provided. Are there propane systems out there like it? Ones that you may have or seen used that is good? I am really kinda ignorant on these things.

Thanks

Jerry Jr.

[Handloader109]

The gas systems natural or propane, are the same other than the actual burner orfices. Those, along with electric would be no real user issues. Coal and wood do, but seems like a lot cheaper.

[dbosman]

Gas of some sort.
The secret is a zoned heating combination boiler.
You can have a thermostat in every room if you want to. Manifolds direct heat where needed and only when needed. You will probably want a smart thermostat in the main living area. You can add under floor heating to the bathroom, kitchen and even directly the floor in front of her favorite chair. You can run a loop system under the front porch and sidewalk if you wish to eliminate snow shoveling.

AC is a separate system, but not a huge problem. It takes a lot less to cool a well insulated new home than most are used to.

[plmitch]

I just installed a Mitsubishi mini split system. Heating and cooling, all electric, no ducts to run, easy and cheap.

[dakotashooter2]

Another option is to use a/the water heater to heat the house. Since the water heater is constantly keeping the water hot anyway you might as well have that hot water working for you. The downside is it usually requires a high quality water heater (which are often more efficient than a boiler).

[MT Gianni]

I would look long and hard at a Rennai space heater. Simple to use and easy to install they vent through the wall with a 2 1/4" hole. Sealed combustion and direct vent. They require electricity but have their own thermostat, available in LP or Natural gas and are efficient. Easy to clean the filter and fan. I would suggest a smaller one for the upstairs and a large one for the main floor.

[Alstep]

I switched from oil to coal about 6 years ago, no regrets at all. My heating costs are at least $1000 to $1500 less than oil, depending on prices. I installed an EFM automatic stoker right along with the oil fired boiler, circulate both together, and have lots of BTU's in storage. I keep the fire going all year long for hot water. Someone else here mentioned a Keystoker, another good boiler. I also have an Alaska stoker that comes in handy. It's a small unit that will easily heat a few rooms. Another good small stoker stove is made by Leisure Line. All these burn rice coal. All need electricity for controls, feed, and blower. They need so little power I can run them off a generator or battery & inverter in the few times the power goes out. Coal is king in NEPA.

[Alstep]

Try this website, it's all about coal.
http://nepacrossroads.com/

[MtGun44]

If she is near a natural gas line, that is the way to go. HUGE supplies coming online steadily, will last a LONG time.
Propane is similar - actually stripped out of natural gas, so will be plenty. This is what you would use if she is
not near a pipeline.

You can use a boiler system to run the baseboard heaters or a central forced air unit, if there are ducts already in
place. Nothing will be cheap to buy or to run, but if the windows and doors are draft free and the walls well
insulated - maybe add some more to the attic may make sense. Nowdays, R-38 or higher is recommended in
your part of the country, so if it does not have two 6inch thick batts or equivalent blown in thickness (a foot) you
will gain by adding more in the attic. Insulation saves money and makes the house more comfortable.

A modern thermostat that will turn it down (she can set it down manually, too) at night and times when she
is normally away will help the bill a good bit. I know that I sleep better at about 60 or 65 and like about 70 or
even 72 when I am up and in the house. Dropping 10 degrees when not really needed will save a good bit
of money, and the thermostat can warm up the house on schedule so she gets out of bed to a nice warm
house but can sleep under covers in a nice cool house.

Stay away from heat pumps - my Dad got one and my mother hated it for years. The fact is that the air from
a heat pump is only about 80 degrees or something like that and when moving (blowing from a heat duct)
it actually feels cool, not warm. A NG or propane unit puts out something like 95-100 degree air and it
feels warm. Even though the room temp is the same with either, the gas heating system is much more
comfortable, especially for older folks (like ME!).

If you get propane, be aware that it often goes on sale in the summer, and you can pre-pay for a bunch of
it at a much lower price than if you pay as you go. This can be a great deal if you can cough up the cash.
I bought 3 yrs worth of heating propane at a very low price and saved probably in the range of several thousand
dollars over that time, price went far higher and I still had the prepaid propane being delivered at the old
sale price.

Bill

[shooterg]

Switched from oil to propane with a heat pump also years ago(no natural gas in the sticks). House is about 2/3 the size of the OP's . Most I ever used in a year for heat was 113 gal.
We bought the tank(250 ?) and fill it in the summer. When the hot water heater goes, going to change it out to propane on-demand. Happy, happy, happy.

[nekshot]

If you are from where I think you are first make sure the basement is insulated in first floor joists with r-19. Second I would consider no other than a mini split air-heat pump. I believe you have the stove to supplement on real negative temps when and if needed.

[schutzen]

Coal and oil are high btu fuels that can be burned very efficiently. However, they also require more maintenance. The option my brother and I choose for our parents was a forced air gas pack. Dad was physically unable to service the unit himself and Mom is not mechanically inclined. Gas (natural is best, but we were limited to propane) is clean, low maintenance, and provides the "feelable" heat older persons seem to require. By utilizing a gas pack (exterior of the house) we could hire service work without having to open the house if we were not available (my brother and I both worked jobs that required us to be on the road). Dad has passed and Mom is 92, we are still very happy with the choice of a gas pack. I'm now retired and can perform the service work, but it is usually limited to cleaning the unit and the burner, changing the filters, and monitoring the propane tank level. An added benefit is if we are without power, a 5KW generator will power Moms furnace and refrigerator.

Just my limited experience.

[enreynolds]

Southpaw: Not to belittle anyone here, but if I were you, I would post my original question at heatinghelp.com. There is probably a forum member near you that could give you good local advice.

Eric

[jonp]

I took out the main furnace in our new house when it blew up, yea first year in the house, and installed wall mount propane heaters in every room. Ran the copper line myself. We turn on the heaters as needed when we use a room. Saved a ton of money instead of heating the entire house.
Depending on your room size you don't need a fan and electricity. Power goes out in the winter your still warm. That's a big plus

[Petrol & Powder]

I've used just about every type of heating systems available and the choices between systems and fuel types is one giant box of compromises. I will say that for an elderly person; gas heat (natural gas or propane) has a lot of positives attributes. Good heat, low maintenance and not labor intensive. If natural gas is available, that would be my choice followed by propane if "city" gas isn't available. Hot water radiators, fed by some gas fired boiler provide very nice heat. Hot water baseboard radiators don't dry the air our and are fairly efficient. The downside to hot water is the expense to install and the need to protect against freezing in a power failure. Forced air is a close second and the duct work can be used for AC in the summer.
I live in central VA and we are just a bit too far north for efficient use of heat pumps (although contractors love to install them). Northeast PA is way too far north to even consider a heat pump. I currently use a duel fuel heat pump/propane furnace but it functions more like a propane furnace in winter and I need the AC component in the summer.

jonp is right on the money with his "no electricity needed" system. I would NEVER have a system that was totally dependent on electricity. I have several back-up means to heat my house in the absence of grid tied electric service. IMHO, being totally dependent on electric service for your heat borders on being irresponsible. A wall mount propane (or NG) heater that doesn't require electricity is a good back-up.

[Petrol & Powder]

schutzen - "..........An added benefit is if we are without power, a 5KW generator will power Moms furnace and refrigerator."

/\ Another big advantage of a gas fired system. You only need a little electricity to power the system and it will still work.

[southpaw]

Thanks for all the info guys. We do have a few generators to help if the power should go out. I guess I should get Mom and go out and look at some units and get an idea of the units and a price range.

Thanks again.

Jerry Jr.