Can't stop the leading

[Arrow]

I am casting for glock 19, 20, 23, 27, 29, and 34. The 20 and 29 have kkm barrels all else factory. I am also shooting a smith 629 3" .44 mag with the cylinder throats reamed. My casting alloy is straight clip on wheel weights air cooled. All bored have been slugged and bullets sizes .001" bigger than bore. I have tried tight group as well as longshot powder. I have pulled bullets out of the casing and measured with a micrometer and hey have not been swaged down in size. That is 7 pistols that are all leading on me. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks

zack

[Larry Gibson]

Might add 2% tin to the COWWs.

What lube?

Larry Gibson

[kweidner]

Larry has spoken. It might be a little fast on the powder side too. Depends on how hot you are loading. Unless you are plinking, use powder that fills the case as much as possible for the speed desired. Like larry my first guess is lead and lube.

[williamwaco]

Size .002 over.

You didn't mention lube?

[MtGun44]

"boolits sized .001 bigger than bore" ---- not significant by itself for a revolver, if
you are using the term correctly. Do you mean groove or bore?

What throat diameter, what groove diameter (not bore) and what boolit diameter,
and how are you measuring?

Bill

[DrCaveman]

When i started shooting cast a mere couple of years ago, i got fooled into thinking i had "leading" which mostly turned out to be antimony wash. Kind of a black smear-y looking occurrence toward the muzzle end, for me.

Then i made some REAL leading happen by pushing undersized slugs over 1400 fps with a questionable alloy and mere tumble lube. That was a wake up

Since, i have seen minor leading here and there...generally the leading happening close to the launch point (cylinder/forcing cone in revolvers, throat in autos) was because of wrong size boolits

Leading toward the muzzle was because of wimpy lube or not enough

Leading all the way meant i screwed up big time and needed to rethink every step of my process

My guess is still lube, if you are in fact getting leading

[kweidner]

I suggest make up a batch of Felix and repeat. It is not necessarily a one lube does all but one lube does most.

[Arrow]

I am using white label carnauba red right now. I was using some Lyman moly lube. By bore diameter I ment groove diameter. On the smith 629 my smith slugged the barrel enforce working on the cylinder. Because it's a 5 groove his best guess was .429" groove. I am sizing bullets to .430" and cylinder throats are cut .4305". I have tried pushing hard and also slow velocity. I was pushing for hard velocity with longshot in the 10mm's and lighter target loads for everything else with tightgroup. Even in the 10mm with tightgroup at lower velocity was I getting leading. I think I must be doing something wrong. I have never shot a cast bullet through anything and not got leading.

[Hickok]

I myself never measure the groove diameter in a revolver. I size my boolits for a snug fit in the cylinder throats.

Just a question, how good are your handguns shooting and grouping? Sometimes what we think of as "leading" is nothing to fret over. Even when shooting j-word projectiles, you will see a slight wash of copper.

As long as the revolver keeps shooting good groups, and the leading doesn't build up, and cleans out easily, nothing to worry about.

[RobS]

Glock factory barrels like fat boolits, .002" over and I've had best results with "harder" bullets with their polygonally barrels. I use water quenched wheel weight boolits for this situation. As to the 20, 29 in the 10mm I would size has large as you can that will reliably chamber but I don't know how tight the chambers are on those aftermarket barrels and you may try some water quenched boolits here as well. I'm not a person who shoots only water quenced boolits as I shoot air cooled WW alloy, 50/50 wheel weight to straight, lead/tin alloys and have worked with just about everything else in between. The factory Glock barrels with take some really fat boolits and still chamber. As to the revolver it sounds like you are doing that right but you may try to size a bit larger there as well and size right up to the throat diameter of .4305.

When you talk of leading, where is this at in your barrels? Is it a grey streaking that comes out easily with a few passes of a bore brush?

[bangerjim]

Try all the grease lubes you want. After they all have leading, try powder coating. Many MANY hundreds of us on there are now using it with absolutely ZERO leading on every gun ever tried...based upon many report and personally ALL the guns and rifles I shoot. I use TiteGroup in most all my carts.

Easy and cheap to do. Checks the sticky on coatings. Give dry tumble a try. I believe you will be very happy.

bangerjim

[RobS]

I love it......... so I guess all of us who still use regular lubes have it all wrong. The millions, no wait billions of boolits that have been shot down bores this entire time since powder coating hit the seen must have leaded the barrels and have not been the answer to shooting cast boolits. Now I'm not saying that powder coating doesn't work as I've done it but to say
Try all the grease lubes you want. After they all have leading, try powder coating.
bangerjim seems a bit much really.


375 H&H Boolit
http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt206/RobS01/WP_20140319_002_zpse1d4c97b.jpg (http://s612.photobucket.com/user/RobS01/media/WP_20140319_002_zpse1d4c97b.jpg.html)

And due to the curing of the paint I end up annealing my heat treated down to a softer boolit and when pushing at 2300 fps it leads the bore. Using inferior traditional lube results in a clean barrel and MOA accuracy.

45 ACP Boolits
http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt206/RobS01/WP_20140319_001_zpsf8725d66.jpg (http://s612.photobucket.com/user/RobS01/media/WP_20140319_001_zpsf8725d66.jpg.html)

With this situation powder coating turned out to work well............however I don't own a sprayer so it's a much longer process vs using a lubesizer.

[Arrow]

I would like to get into powder coating eventually but just got the lubrisizer and would like to get that figured out first. I have noticed especially in the 10mms that the accuracy starts out alright with a clean barrel but then after about 10 rounds the accuracy goes to complete hell. There are grey streaks over most of the length of barrels but a lot in the throat areas and just past that.

[RobS]

Take the barrel out and then take a dummy round that is seated long so it will not chamber due to being too long in length. Drop it into the chamber, push the dummy round in the barrel with quite a bit of thumb pressure. You will need to use a cleaning rod to push the round out and then inspect the front drive band. If the throat is short and creating a ring of lead that is being pushed back on the front drive band that is going to be giving you problems. The throat will scrape off lead and then it will be ironed on when the boolit makes it's way down the rest of the barrel. This is happening more and more these days as barrels are being manufactured with sharp/abrupt throats that are not beneficial to shooting cast boolits.

[RobS]

And is why this sticky was born:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?232061-1911-Throating

Not just for 1911's but for many firearms these days.

[bangerjim]

And is why this sticky was born:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?232061-1911-Throating

Not just for 1911's but for many firearms these days.

Excellent point!

I have fought chambering problems with my 9 and now a new 1911 45ACP due to the boolit nose diameter back at the case lip hanging up on the start of the barrel rifling in the throat. It IS a problem with any boolit that the diameter at the seating depth is almost the same as the case insertion diameter.

I cured it by sizing one thou smaller and then using a Lee factory crimp die. And NOT using boolits of the above mentioned dimensions. SWC's work great as well as some RN's. I have 2 RNFP's that hang up.....you can see where the PC is scraped off when putting the boolit in the barrel after taking it out. If you MUST shoot said boolits, a throat reamer is a viable option at about $40. I am still debating on buying one for the 1911's. From what I have read, pretty much every 1911 has that problem if made in the past 30-40 years or so. I have found 3 of them exactly like mine! And my S&W 9mm has the exact same problem. It is as if they were made to shoot ONLY FMJ factory loads! Conspiracy theory???????......we report.....you decide!!!!!!!!!

Have fun!

bangerjim

[bangerjim]

I love it......... so I guess all of us who still use regular lubes have it all wrong. The millions, no wait billions of boolits that have been shot down bores this entire time since powder coating hit the seen must have leaded the barrels and have not been the answer to shooting cast boolits. Now I'm not saying that powder coating doesn't work as I've done it but to say seems a bit much really.


375 H&H Boolit
http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt206/RobS01/WP_20140319_002_zpse1d4c97b.jpg (http://s612.photobucket.com/user/RobS01/media/WP_20140319_002_zpse1d4c97b.jpg.html)

And due to the curing of the paint I end up annealing my heat treated down to a softer boolit and when pushing at 2300 fps it leads the bore. Using inferior traditional lube results in a clean barrel and MOA accuracy.

45 ACP Boolits
http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt206/RobS01/WP_20140319_001_zpsf8725d66.jpg (http://s612.photobucket.com/user/RobS01/media/WP_20140319_001_zpsf8725d66.jpg.html)

With this situation powder coating turned out to work well............however I don't own a sprayer so it's a much longer process vs using a lubesizer.

My opinion..........agree or disagree. That is the purpose of this forum......share and express views and ideas....whether they rub some wrong or not. I know what works for me.

I used grease lubes (pan & TL) for a long time and just lived with the fact I had to have lead removal chemicals and tools to use on a regular basis. Now with many MANY hundreds of personal slugs that are PC'd, I have almost eliminated cleaning all together, and NO lead.....ever.

If you do not have an ESPC gun, use dry tumble with Airsoft BB's. That process we have collectively developed over the past few months yields very good coatings with only the investment in a bottle of BB's, a coolwhip (#5 plastic) container, some HF powder, and a convection oven. I use both processes all the time and have excellent success.

Both grease and PC are useful techniques. Use what you wish!

banger

[Springfield]

I used to shoot my autos all the time, back when I carried for a living. But now I mostly just do slower velocity Cowboy action shooting, which requires lead bullets, with an occasional foray with my 45 acp and my wifes and my Browning HP's. Funny, I almost never get any leading. I think most guys just try and make the bullets go too fast. I check all my loads on my friends chronograph, hate to guess what things are doing. I have a lead hardness tester also. Just lube everything up with my Star and my home made soft lube.

[Arrow]

Thanks for all the help. I understand what you are saying about the oh I've being dug into the rifling, I have had this in the past. However that is not the case here. Any other advise. Thanks for all the help.
Zack

[Good Cheer]

I am casting for glock 19, 20, 23, 27, 29, and 34. The 20 and 29 have kkm barrels all else factory. I am also shooting a smith 629 3" .44 mag with the cylinder throats reamed. My casting alloy is straight clip on wheel weights air cooled. All bored have been slugged and bullets sizes .001" bigger than bore. I have tried tight group as well as longshot powder. I have pulled bullets out of the casing and measured with a micrometer and hey have not been swaged down in size. That is 7 pistols that are all leading on me. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks

zack

Sir, my first inclination would be to look for common factors. Playing what ifs, the alloy is the first suspect right off the bat. Why are all fraught with problems?

[NuJudge]

I'd try the 50/50 formula that Lars sells, I'd try adding some Tin, and I would drop the bullets from the mold into a 5 gallon bucket of water to make them harder. If your chambers will allow you to use a cartridge with a bullet .002" over groove diameter, I'd try that too.

[Love Life]

Speed Green or Lotak Hard for lube. HI-TEK for coating.

Ensure you are sizing correctly, and that your throat is good to go.

[dla]

The first thing I usually ask is "why do you care about leading?". Most leading is cosmetic. Some affects accuracy. In very few cases does it affect functionality. So maybe the simplest thing to do is chill?

[44man]

Could some zinc have gotten into the WW alloy? A little more tin could be the answer. I water drop my WW boolits and shoot PB from my large bores with zero leading, I use Felix.
I have used 50-50 out of the 45-70 revolver at 1630 fps with the cleanest bore ever, had to oven harden and use a GC for accuracy or I got fliers. They ran 18 to 20 BHN after hardening and had no affect on expansion, destroyed a deer!
I have revolvers in the safe that have not had the bores cleaned in two to three years.
My .44 has run hundreds of shots using a .430" boolit from a .430" groove and .4324" throats with zero leading. It will not shoot air cooled the same as water dropped but I found annealing the GC helps a great deal with accuracy, don't know why. No leading either way.
I suspect the alloy and lube.
I spent years testing lubes and you will not believe the accuracy changes from one to another.
CR never gave a problem but it is a little hard and equals LBT hard blue. Felix works and I use it in my 30-30 at over 1900 fps.
Powders too fast have a bad affect on lead.
I use 4759 in my BFR 45-70 and it works best but just one session with 5744 leaded the bore badly, just something about it did not match. Trying to find a sub for 4759 drove me nuts but I just got 16# of 4759 from a back order so with what I have left, I am set for life.
The question is, will powder choice alone cause leading? I am thinking that way now. Since 5744 is a tad slower then 4759, why did it lead my bore? 4759 is also so clean I don't have to clean brass.
Primers also have an affect, use a mag primer in the .44 so you drive the boolit into the barrel and then slam it with a fast powder peak leads to failure.
I bet the OP is using a mag due to load manuals. No powder used in the .44 needs one.
Water drop the .44, use 296 and a standard primer like the Fed 150.

[youngmman]

I had one thought regarding the alloy. I use COWW as a base to alloy with Lino for a 93/5/2 mix, with a BHN of 14, and have no leading at all using LBT Blue Lube and sized at .430" for the 44mag and .001" over groove diameter for the .44 mag, special, 357, 38spl and 45ACP.


There are COWW that have changed alloy according to what I have read in several posts here so your alloy may not be what you think it is if the leading is so universal with all your guns. I don't have any Glocks but understand the rifling is different and is conducive to leading with factory barrels.


Just some thoughts.

[44man]

We are hanging on a cross thinking all WW's are the same. They are cycled with all the stick on junk and zinc. Even aluminum. We no longer have specific alloys.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have a question? are the boolits "bevel based" or "flat based" If they are bevel base, there's your answer.

Randy

[garym1a2]

I like beval base lee 200gr SWC, it nevar leads on me. Sized .452, lube 50/50alox/beeswax.
My answer is forget about what your barrel size is, you could have measured it wrong. With KKM .357 normalyl works for 9mm, .401 for 40 S&W and .452 for 45acp. If those numbers don't work go up .001.

P.S, the lee 38 S&W expander iin the 9mm powder die works wonders.
I never got good results from my 9mm "M" die.


I have a question? are the boolits "bevel based" or "flat based" If they are bevel base, there's your answer.

Randy

[44man]

Bevel base does no harm except with length, they are like leaving a check off a boolit so it no longer matches twist or velocity. I showed pennies shot at 100 with my TC 30-30 but when I ran out of checks the boolits turned sideways at 50. Mismatch!
I have a .357 BB Lee mold here and it was not accurate so I reamed the BB out and accuracy improved so much I could not believe it.
As long as a BB boolit still has what the rifling needs, it works just fine.