A couple long winded 45-70 loading questions

[smokedog2]

Many years ago my dad had a bad experience with lead bullets in a .30 carbine, like 50 years ago. It leaded the barrel terribly. Since then I’ve heeded his advice and loaded nothing but jacketed, plated and now a few polymer coated bullets for about 40 years. All pistol and a very few hundred .270.

In violation of my self-imposed rule to buy fewer guns and shoot the ones I have more, I have a pre-2007 (JM) Marlin 45-70 on its way. Ohio changed the laws from shotgun only to also allowing straight walled rifle/pistol cartridges. The 45-70 made the cut and I jumped at the chance to hunt with a rifle again. And since I’ve always wanted but couldn’t justify a 45-70 in Ohio….

I’ve looked at the sabot 12 gauge ballistics; they are very similar to the 45-70. I’ve also shot a 45-70 long ago. Performance wise there will be very little change but I reload, so…. More stuff to buy.

It is unlikely that I will load the hottest round allowed. I switched from a pump to autoloader 12 gauge because of the recoil so I’m going to need some target loads.

I have two powders IMR 4198 and 4064. It is what I could find so they are my current favorites. I also have some Unique which has a few loads on the net if not in the manual.

I plan to start with two bullets.
Hornady 325 grn, when I can find them, http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/9-56129 and Montana (457122), 330 grn: http://montanabulletworks.com/BB_45_caliber.html

The Montana website is stuffed with pretty good information but I’m never going to swag my barrel. Here are my questions?

1. Has anyone swaged a 2007ish Marlin 45-70 and gotten a number far from / other than .458?
2. Has anyone ever worked up a low end target load/bullet and a separate hunting load/bullet with a near consistent point of impact, e.g. ligheter load for a lighter bullet? I’ll have a matrix for these four in a month or two at 50/100/150 and put it up. I’d like a place to start.
3. I will start with trimming the cases but how picky is a 45-70? I know Hornady brass runs short, does anyone skip trimming their 45-70 brass (try not to panic at the thought; I’m looking for minute of whitetail, as long as they feed)?
4. At mid-range loading, will any 45-70 bullet expand much? I have my doubts. I’ll be soaking some phonebooks and let you know in a few months on this as well.

Oh, and if the anti-crawler question to join the forum is going to be “Who is the President running the country?” “None” should be an acceptable answer.

Thanks, this is going to be fun.

[dh2]

my marlin 45/70 is pre 2005 vintage it preforms well with a with 405gr fp j-word bullets , I did buy some 405 gr cast bullets a 3 inch group was as good as it gets, they was sized .457. I Got a mold for for 405 gr. FP GC I am going to cast my own and size .459 to see if I can get some better results. my 45/70 brass has never been trimed.

[NSB]

4198 is an excellent powder for the 45-70. Montana Bullet Works is out of business. You really need to slug your barrel and find out the true diameter. Get some cast bullets one or two thousandths over and start with those. Lots of places selling cast bullets if you don't cast yourself. If you're not going to shoot this gun a lot, and just want to use it for deer hunting in Ohio, just buy some Remington factory fodder with 405g JSP bullets. They've shot very, very well out of every 45-70 I've tried them in. They also are pretty mild on the shooter as well.

[Bohica793]

I'm shooting an H&R Handi 45-70 using a Lyman 457193 (405gr) sized to .459 on top of 27.5 grains of 5744. I cast these myself from range scrap at about 10-12 BHN. NO LEADING. The trick with cast is slug your bore and size to +.001/.002 over.

50 yard group
The first two were sighting rounds to adjust the scope. The next 5 could be covered with a quarter. Ain't nothing wrong with cast if you do it correctly.

107979



(http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=107977)

[Skipper]

Montana Bullet Works is out of business

You can get the 330 Gould bullet from Western Bullets:
http://www.westernbullet.com/ly4gr8.html

For low velocity loads, check here (scroll down on the left side of the page)
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

[knifemaker]

I am willing to bet a good sum you are going to find your Marlin 1895 will have bore grooves that are over .458 in dia. My marlin 1895 and several others belonging to friends seem to do best with cast boolits sized .460 I use a Ranch Dog 350 gr. mold that drops boolits at .462 and I size them at .460 with a gas check. That boolit backed by 43gr. of IMR-4198 will give me 1800 fps out of my 22 inch barrel and will consistly put 3 boolits into 1 inch at 100 yards.
I prefer to use a gas check so that I can use an alloy of 50% clip on wheel weights with 50% pure lead and 2% tin added for good expansion on animals and no problems with leading in my rifle.
I have also used that boolit to take bison and one shot kills. I use white label 2500+ lube with that boolit.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Your 4198 is about as good or better than any other powders in the .45-70. 300 hundred grain plus a little work fine for just about anything with the right bullet; less recoil and flatter trajectory. Brass length is less important than uniformity. You will be crimping if your going to use the magazine. Expansion happens, but with a good flat nose bullet in the .45-70 it is really not of concern. 300 grain bullets normally shoot through deer size game from corner to corner unless very soft and hollowpointed, even then most quartering and broadside shots will fully penetrate. Killing power on deer is not a concern. Only way to truly determine accuracy of bullet is to shoot it in the gun your using. A .458 , .459, or .460 diameter cast bullet will probably work. Jacketed bullet diameter seems to be less sensitive. I have found significant impact point difference between jacketed and cast bullets of similar weight or bullets of quite different weights, Sometimes (?) and Some rifles(?). Good luck with your new rifle, my 1895 Marlin is my most revered rifle, because it is so highly effective on large animals.

[MtGun44]

I have had excellent results with the Sierra 300 jbullet for practice, the Remington 405 Jbullet for hunting,
and also the RCBS cast 405. I assume you mean "slug" your barrel, and I wonder why you wouldn't do it?
Takes about 5 minutes and tells the tale on what size cast you should load. The 4064 should work well, and Unique
is great for practice and plinking loads, esp with cast. Start with about 10 gr and work up to 15 or so, any
cast boolit that isn't too hard should work fairly well with Unique, tends to bump them up as needed.

Just because your father had a failure with cast - many years ago, and I'll wager he had little knowledge of
the requirements, why should you limit yourself so much when there is an unlimited supply of skilled
advice available here?

Good luck.

Bill

[44man]

Watch going too soft, 50-50 might be too much. I am going to work with 75-25 and see what they do on deer.
I use the BFR revolver in 45-70 at 1631 FPS from 10" barrel, too hard shoots a hole through, not good so I went to 50-50 and it will gut and skin your deer for you! :grin: Your rifle will be faster.
Marlin's usually take a larger boolit so best to slug your barrel. I would say you will need .460".
The Ballard rifling is not any deeper then the micro groove so treat it the same if you have that.
The 45-70 is a great choice for Ohio and the Marlin can be extremely accurate.
You can shoot very soft boolits too but my caution is to see what they do on deer, they can be super destructive. Don't go too hard either.
One thing I found working with my Marlin 30-30 is to hold the forearm and put your hand on a bag. Doesn't work right if you put the wood on a bag. I am under 1" at 100 that way.
Do not fear the slower powders, you do not need shotgun powders with cast.

[Tatume]

IMR4064 is an excellent powder for cast bullets in the 45-70. Go to http://hodgdon.com/ and look at the 45-70 Trapdoor data for 300 and 385 grain cast bullets. Use an appropriate starting load.

I use even less velocity for deer, only about 1400 fps. Those big bullets kill like lightning!

Bullets sized in a 0.459" RCBS sizer die work wonderfully in my 45-70 rifles, including a Marlin. Before you spend the bucks for a custom sizer die, try! Too many people say you have to slug your bore, and slug your throat, and make custom sizer dies, and buy custom molds that cast larger diameter bullets. Not enough people recommend trying what you have. If it shoots well, use it. If it doesn't, you still have options. I think you will find off-the-shelf items for 45-70 have been worked out over the almost 150 years the cartridge has been around. They work for me, in many rifles.

Take care, Tom

[doc1876]

the IMR 4064, IMR 3031, and IMR4198 are all great for the .45-70. I shoot single shot, I guess I am going to have to get one of the leverguns sometime soon, but there is a whole forum dedicated to leverguns, and you find several there that are very knowledgeable. If you get a chance there is one guy Duknukem that has been at this a while, read his threads.
Good luck and welcome, these guys are great about helping us newbies get going.

[hickfu]

My 45-70 slugs out at .4575 and I shoot .460 out of it.. Its best to slug the barrel in any rifle you will be shooting cast in to make sure you know what your lands and grooves are sizing at, It also lets you feel for any restrictions in the barrel (normally at the dovetail of the back sight. A couple people on the Marlin owners forum have found a restriction there that was swaging down the boolit there and were getting very poor accuracy.

I havent used the 2 powders you have (my favorites are H322, IMR-3031 and 2400) but I have heard good things of the 4198 in a 45-70.

Doc

[NSB]

108025

Two of my favorite powders for the 45-70. My third is 2400 which works almost as well. Shot from my deck to the firing line at 114 yds.

[44man]

A caliber that will never go away.It is so easy to work with and so good in the field. All you need do is find accuracy.

[Tatume]

A caliber that will never go away.It is so easy to work with and so good in the field. All you need do is find accuracy.

One of the reasons it will never go away is that it is so easy to find accuracy. Just load it and shoot; most guns will reward with fine accuracy with no fuss. Off the shelf dies and molds work wonderfully. With 141 years to figure it out, this is one of the best known cartridges in existence.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I shoot RCBS.45-300 FNGC's. these are 300 gr boolits with gas checks so there is no leading ever. I have two of these moulds and one is going to have the driving bands increased in size so the mould drop WW material at .461-2 and have the gas check step removed to produce a plain based boolit.

I use 25 gr of 5744 for these boolits. I have shot as high as 35 gr of 5744 with these boolits. There are many powders that work great in this round.

The biggest problem you will find trying to buy cast boolits from companies is that most every one is casting them form material that is too hard. With plain based designs the promotes leading if the boolits are not over bore size. not a problem with gas checks. point being, if you are going to buy boolits then buy gas checked boolits.

You should have no problem getting that gun to shoot. It is an easy one to work with and there are literally zillions of options for boolits and loads.

As said above it is not going to ever go away. It has been here since 1873 and is more popular now than it ever has been.

Randy

[josper]

Smoke dog I hope your flying an A-10 If you bad mouth lead boolits on this forum,lol. Cause your going to take some flak.

[smokedog2]

I have everything set-up and came back going through everything above once more. Thanks, all for the input. Loading tonight and hitting the range Friday AM with a variety of loads and a chronograph. I have IMR 4198 at 35 grn and 30 grn. I think I'll load 32 and 28 as well. It is a remote range and I'll be early enough to be alone. I seem to be the instructor for kids and some adults most days at the range. Being alone will be a treat.

[DisinterestedThirdParty]

I use (of all things....) Unique in my #1 with the Lyman 366gr boolit. It's in their loading manual.

Shoots very well, albeit I don't hunt and just shoot for the enjoyment.

[Wayne Smith]

Contact Dan at TheBullshop via PM on this site. He has just about any 45cal. mold you would want and he sells boolits. His prices are reasonable and you will know the alloy so you will know how hard or soft they are.