357 vs 44 mag for hunting backup

[Jamesconn]

I plan on hog hunting a lot in the near future and ever since I've had a traumatizing childhood experience with them I want to have a second option if my shotgun is empty and I have one charging me.


I know 44 mag is more powerful and I was thinkin of the super redhawk with the 7.5in barrel for 44 mag against the 6in gp100. I'm not sure I'll be able to use cast boolits because whatever gun I get I want a near max load for hunting.


how much more powerful is a hot 44 mag load vs a hot 357 is there a noticeable difference in its ability to stop a hog on a shot per shot basis?


I plan on carrying in a shoulder holster or cross draw leather holster.


I have a 1851 confederate navy and I kind of like it, but I want the most reliable and powerful revolver I can have. BP in the rain mud and sweat doesn't perform well.


Do y'all have any info on waterproofing cartridges either?


Reguardless of which gun I get I'm only going to use the top of the line components.


After reading reviews on the Internet on the WMA I've been planning to go to. There's a couple meth labs and meth heads. I don't know if I'm still going to go, because I was planning on going alone.

[jmort]

About twice as much "energy." A cast LBT style boolit would work well. Otherwise, something like a Swift A-Frame or Nosler Partition would be a good choice. For what you describe go with the .44 mag.

[AlaskanGuy]

Well, I do not hunt hogs, but it believe in the 44 mag stopping power..... Why produce a "hot" load for a 357 when you can use a Normal load 310 gr boolit that you can practice with and shoot all day long???? It would be a no brainer for me.... Go for the horse power if your worried about charges.... The 310 lee is accurate, and makes a good anchor i think....

AG

[M-Tecs]

44 without question and a good read on waterproofing

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-544377.html

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-49861.html

http://markroncustomgunproducts.com/

[dilly]

I wouldn't sneer at a 180 or maybe even 200 gr 357 bullet, but unless you don't want the weight of the SRH the 44 is a very potent round.

The only thing that I would add is that you probably could do cast bullets. If you got a heavy for caliber bullet, like the Lee 310 grain bullet mentioned earlier, I think it would be hard to beat.

On waterproofing; some people have put a little nail polish on the primer pockets and around the rim of the case. I don't know that it's necessary but I suppose it can't hurt "just in case." There's also a proprietary primer sealant that is may be almost the same thing repackaged and 5x more expensive.

[str8wal]

There is no replacement for displacement ;-)

[Bonz]

You can always reduce the power of a 44 magnum load if its too much to handle =but= you can not exceed a maximum load in a 357 magnum if its not enough to get the job done. The same holds true for the S&W 500 magnum

[rintinglen]

It is your ability under stress to use the caliber that more likely will dictate which is better than any innate characteristic of either cartridge. The .44 magnum is definitely more powerful, and recoils more, which makes it more desirable from the standpoint of terminal effect, but less so from the standpoint of ease of utilization. A gun too powerful will get you hurt if you can't shoot it well, because a loud miss isn't much good to anybody, but a weak hit can be just as bad if it fails to incapacitate. To me, the critical test would be which gun can I shoot one-handed (to allow for the possibility that my off-hand is busy holding something) at 7 yards so that I can hit a six inch circle in less than two seconds. That lets out the SBH for me; I'm not a CASS wizard when it comes to single actions, but my Redhawk would still be in the hunt. You are going to have to determine which works best for you. My first choice would be a DA 5 - 7 1/2 inch 44 revolver, but I have been shooting DA revolvers for over 40 years. YMMV.

[44man]

.44 all the way! Cast are shot at full velocity. The Lee 310 at over 1300 FPS is a proven killer. 21.5 gr of 296 and a Fed 150 primer.
Water does not get into loads so forget it.
You will find the SRH a better primary hunting gun then the rifle.
Seen a big boar hog shot with a 240 XTP. Good hit but hours later when we were picked up, the hog was still alive even though it was down at the shot. Give me a heavy cast every time.

[dg31872]

Either one, but I would choose the caliber that I am most comfortable with under duress.
When you happen upon a mess of piglets, and the momma is headed your way in a rush, the 44 probably gets the nod if you can hit her while she's running.

[44man]

Anyone can shoot a .44. Shoot larger a few times and the .44 is a ***** cat. It grows on you fast.
I am backwards and don't teach with a .22, then a .38, .357, etc. I teach with a .500 JRH first, then the .475 and then the .44. Tame recoil and smaller guns are NOTHING! Friends son was scared to death to shoot my .500 until I showed him one hand was easy. He hit pop cans off hand at 50 every shot. You should see him with a .454 now. Seen him take a pop can at 100 off hand.
Most work backwards to feel recoil. The .44 can intimidate you. The gun is EASY to shoot.

[Jamesconn]

I'm not too worried about recoil or comfort. I like shooting guns with stout recoil. 7.5 in barrel and probably 60ish ounces of steel has to help. I'm going to start practicing every week or two at the 100 yd range with my shotgun and the revolver when I get it. I want to practice till I can shoot both proficiently instinctually. I do have a mosin and an enfield but I can operate my shotgun quite a bit faster and more effectively.

[Larry in MT]

Definitely the 44 but that 7.5" Redhawk is a beast to get into action quickly. It's more for use as a primary hunting arm.

This is my Griz country 44 -- a 5" 629-4 with 285 grain WFL Hardcasts @ 1235 fps. Recoil is manageable and quick repeat shots are not a problem.
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab176/larrykay47/c542cbf8.jpg

[Hickok]

Get a good .44 or .45 Colt with around a 4 to a 4 5/8 inch barrel, around a 250 gr cast boolit, with a good flat meplat, going from 900-1300 fps.

The shorter barrels make for easier carrying as a back-up, and allow the revolver to "clear leather" quicker if you do need it. I have chronographed loads from 4 in barrels to 7 1/2 inch barrels, and the difference is about 35 fps per inch from my .44's, not enough to worry about.

I have used the heavier 300 plus grain boolits in my 44 and 45 revolvers, but for me the recoil is just not worth it, and a good 250 gr will clear through both shoulders of a large black bear.

I have killed a few "hogs." Just be careful when you approach a "dead hog", come in from behind, looking for all the signs that it is indeed "dead."

[Lefty Red]

I will preach the abilities of the 357Mag from the roof tops, but will also mimic everyone else's wisdom and say get the 44 Mag.

And get a shorter barrel for back up. At the distance you are using it, I would worry about portability and handling over a few ft/lbs.

Jerry

[rintinglen]

The 7 1/2 inch Barrel is only slightly slower if used with a good cross draw holster, and for fast shooting up close, the long barrel is a plus.

[DougGuy]

Definitely start out with a 4! With 300+gr wide flat nose cast boolits over max charges of 296 or H110 (same powder btw...) you have the best handgun hunting/defensive against dangerous game cartridges available. Once you get to a certain power level, the .44 mag and .45 Colt are almost the same gun/boolit, the edge goes to the .45 Colt in that it can launch a slightly heavier boolit for the same amount of pressure than the .44 mag can but the edge is only by the slightest margin.

Redhawk with mid-length barrel in either .44 or .45 caliber stoked with Lee RF boolits would serve you very well against hogs, all the way up to large bears. A blackhawk, vaquero, super blackhawk would have the same firepower but in single action format. Same amount of power.

.45 Colt loaded with Lee C452-300-RF on the right, on the left are two 340gr SSK TC boolits recovered -after- traveling through over 32" of seasoned oak:
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/DSC01713_zpseefbffc2.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/DSC01713_zpseefbffc2.jpg.html)

.44 Magnum loaded with Lee C430-310-RF:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/466c9cd3-4396-4945-8fd1-d7edadfffdf2_zpsdbbc2485.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/466c9cd3-4396-4945-8fd1-d7edadfffdf2_zpsdbbc2485.jpg.html)

[44man]

Definitely start out with a 4! With 300+gr wide flat nose cast boolits over max charges of 296 or H110 (same powder btw...) you have the best handgun hunting/defensive against dangerous game cartridges available. Once you get to a certain power level, the .44 mag and .45 Colt are almost the same gun/boolit, the edge goes to the .45 Colt in that it can launch a slightly heavier boolit for the same amount of pressure than the .44 mag can but the edge is only by the slightest margin.

Redhawk with mid-length barrel in either .44 or .45 caliber stoked with Lee RF boolits would serve you very well against hogs, all the way up to large bears. A blackhawk, vaquero, super blackhawk would have the same firepower but in single action format. Same amount of power.

.45 Colt loaded with Lee C452-300-RF on the right, on the left are two 340gr SSK TC boolits recovered -after- traveling through over 32" of seasoned oak:
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/DSC01713_zpseefbffc2.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/DSC01713_zpseefbffc2.jpg.html)

.44 Magnum loaded with Lee C430-310-RF:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/466c9cd3-4396-4945-8fd1-d7edadfffdf2_zpsdbbc2485.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/466c9cd3-4396-4945-8fd1-d7edadfffdf2_zpsdbbc2485.jpg.html)
Shoot some hogs with those and you will hang up rifles.

[AlaskanGuy]

Shoot ANYTHING with them bad boys above, and you will likely anchor it right there... It's the right tool for the job.....

[Sensai]

To answer your original question, I'd go with the 44 Magnum. However, if you're open to suggestions, I'd recommend the 45 Colt. As has been said, at top end loads the ballistics of the 44 Mag and 45 Colt are very much alike. The difference is in the frontal profile. That true 45 caliber boolit is huge compared to the 44, which is really a 43 caliber boolit (.452 vs .429). With a great big meplat, either boolit will kill a hog. It's just that the 45 will kill it deader!! :bigsmyl2:

[Larry Gibson]

Jamesconn

I plan on hog hunting a lot in the near future and ever since I've had a traumatizing childhood experience with them I want to have a second option if my shotgun is empty and I have one charging me.

I know 44 mag is more powerful and I was thinkin of the super redhawk with the 7.5in barrel for 44 mag against the 6in gp100. I'm not sure I'll be able to use cast boolits because whatever gun I get I want a near max load for hunting.

The Super Redhawk with 7.5" barrel is a big gun. If you are carrying the Redhawk and the shotgun one of them is going to be in the way of the other unless you are a very big boy yourself. If a pig is charging and you've emptied your shotgun, which is pretty poor shooting on your part, I have to ask what makes you think you'll be able to get that large of a handgun into action and hit/stop the pig before it is on you?

I suggest, if the pig is far enough away and slow enough, you give more thought to; 1st, shooting a lot better with the shotgun to begin with and avoid the problem and second, giving time an energy into reloading the shotgun because that will be faster and should be deadlier than attempting to get that large a handgun into action. If the pig is close and fast then you aren't going to get the handgun out and stop the charge so plan on getting knocked down, gored or chewed on a bit before the handgun comes into play. You might also consider making sure you are a faster runner than who you are hunting with..........best to better learn to use that shotgun though.

If you still want to carry the handgun for "backup" then a DA 44 magnum would be my suggestion carried in a good high ride belt holster that keeps the handgun readily accessible and quick to put into action. The 7.5" barreled super Redhawk does not fit that description. Additionally if you can't put 6 shots into 6" in very short order (as in less than 3 seconds) with it at 10 yards one handed then get a DA 357 magnum with a 4" barrel. Even a M1911 45 ACP with proper bullets would be a good choice. It's the hits that count, not the size of the gun you carry or the amount of muzzle blast. Best to learn to better use that shotgun though.

Now if you are just hallucinating as justification to buy the Super Redhawk then by all means just buy the Redhawk and practice with it. No need to "justify" that purchase to us. Both it and the shotgun are primary hunting guns and should be used as such. If you want a "back up" gun then get an appropriate one and learn to use it as such.......but best to better learn to use that shotgun though.............

Larry Gibson

107945

[Beerd]

Just when I was about to point out that so far no one has recommended an auto, along comes Larry with his (as usual) words of wisdom, "It's the hits that count."
..

[BruceB]

Do a search for "Karen moose", and find the thread titled "The Day Karen Met the Moose".

It's a cautionary tale of why the .44 makes sense EVEN FOR A LADY, and a case study of superb performance under extreme stress.

We are now recently divorced, but that doesn't change the facts of the situation.

P.S.: I had to go to the new "custom search" feature. to access the story. Typing in a search request at the top of this page just brings up Amazon. What's up with THAT?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Well let me be the first to pile onto Larry's comment above. (at least I was when I started writing this)

If you can't take out said pig with 5-8 rounds of Slugs and or Buckshot, then maybe Fly Fishing would be a better past time. best to better learn to use that shotgun ............

I personally don't have a .357 but I have 3 .44's and my main Axiom when considering penetration is Brian Pearce's statement that a 250 gr boolit at 900 fps will go clean thru an Elk in any direction. Pigs are tough but still how much is enough? Pretty sure one well placed .44 cal. slug is better than a bunch of misses.

I do not have any direct evidence of this however I know this guy to be "one of them that knows," and tend to believe what he says with respect to firearms. I found out recently that him and his sons were major contributors to the Hornaday loading manuals, which means they must have some idea of what they are doing.

The idea of getting a 7.5" Red Hawk into action out of a full coverage holster in short order is probably not going to happen under the best of circumstances. Especially after having fired 6 or 8 magnum slugs from a 7lb shotgun. A better idea would be to just shoot the pig with the shotgun and kill it in the first place. Any hits are going to have an effect, but if you are inside of 50 yards and the pig charges you will have about 5 seconds at the outside to do something decisive. If you can't do something decisive with 6-8 rounds from a shotgun,,,, then were back to Fly Fishing.

However you are only going to have 6 shots in the revolver as well and if you don't connect properly you are in a worse position to stand a charge than with the Shotgun starting with slugs and finishing with 3" 000 buckshot. A Semi Auto Shotgun would be preferable to a Pump in this case as well for obvious reasons.

Here's a hot tip: Buy a Blackhawk Bisley in .44 Special for your backup gun, and spend the rest of your money on going to a shooting school where they will teach you how to use that shotgun and the handgun as well. I personally recommend Front Sight since I am a member, however any of the big name schools can teach you how to wield these guns with authority. Gunsite actually has classes that teach hunting dangerous game and self defense with a single action revolver, and the money would be well spent.

There are two distinctly different aspects to gun ownership. 1. Acquiring guns, and 2. Learning how to use guns. #2. is senior to #1.

The Front sight Motto is "any gun will do , if you will do!"

Put another way,,, best to better learn to use that shotgun! [smilie=2:

Randy

[Bonz]

I will preach the abilities of the 357Mag from the roof tops, but will also mimic everyone else's wisdom and say get the 44 Mag.

And get a shorter barrel for back up. At the distance you are using it, I would worry about portability and handling over a few ft/lbs.

Jerry

+1 on the shorter barrel to get on target quicker

Power Reference Chart

107949

[W.R.Buchanan]

Amazing how many of us are not working on Monday Morning.

Randy

[DougGuy]

Here's a hot tip: Buy a Blackhawk Bisley in .44 Special for your backup gun, and spend the rest of your money on going to a shooting school where they will teach you how to use that shotgun and the handgun as well.

No no no LOL I was good with all of it until it got to the sawed off version of the .44 magnum. BUY the .44 magnum and shoot .44 special if you have to, but at least go to the woods loaded for bear. And whatever else lurks there.

I forgot to mention, these 340gr SSK TC boolits recovered from over 32" of seasoned oak, were hurled there out of a short barreled Vaquero so in agreement with a 7 1/2" hogleg being difficult to draw and aim quickly, keep in mind what kind of damage can be done with a 4 5/8" barrel, and a case full of W296.


http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/f0ef1f31-bc74-4cd1-8db0-0bd95c1a6e1e_zps402bc1ec.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/f0ef1f31-bc74-4cd1-8db0-0bd95c1a6e1e_zps402bc1ec.jpg.html)

[Love Life]

Whichever one you pick, I would recommend a double action. Just draw and start squeezing.

Front sight is not needed for you to be able to adequately defend yourself (or hunt) with either your shotgun or new revolver.

Just get it to the range and pactice your draw, presentation, and shooting. You can even practice your draw and presentation at home (ensure firearms are unloaded).

Don't waste your money on a shooting school. Just practice at the range. All the money you waste on a shooting school can be spent on MORE ammo and components which can be used to build proficency...all without BTDT James Yeager types mouth breathing all over you.

[osteodoc08]

As far as back up pistols go, neither would be my choice. By BACKUP definition, things have gone from bad to worse and for hogs, may I recommend a Glock model 20 (10mm)with some 200gr hard cast loaded to the gills.

The SRH is just too much for a BACKUP gun and the 357, while nice, is still a bit heavy and long for a BACKUP gun. If its what you have available then use the one you are most proficient with. If buying new, I stand by my recommendation.


Personally, I wouldnt feel undergunned with either so long as I was proficient.

[Groo]

Groo here
I would carry the one I can best hit with.
The big Rugers are quite heavy so that and a long gun maybe quite a loadout.
If you can handle it , thats fine.
If you reload, you can make a 44 do whatever.
The 357 needs to be run at full bore to get what you want.
I lean to the 41mag or heavy 10mm loads but it is up to you.

[35 Whelen]

Larry's exactly right, become proficient with your shotgun. If you still want to carry a handgun, more power to ya. Just bear in mind that a SRH weighs 53 oz. That's right at 3.5 lbs. EMPTY. I'd think a sidearm such as that would be a little unwieldy.

I spend 4 or 5 evenings a week taking long walks across the ranch next door in which I usually wind up on a thick, hog inhabited creek bottom about 1 1/2 miles from my house. I have lots of choices of sidearms to carry including a S&W Model 24-3, but I take the greatest comfort from my 4 5/8" NM Vaquero in 45 Colt. At 39 oz., it's not too heavy and will easily run a 285 gr. SWC up to 1100 fps, and to top it all off it's crazy, spooky accurate.

Good luck with your choice.

35W

[Lonegun1894]

Pick whatever you personally shoot best. I hunt hogs a lot with nothing but a .22LR handgun, and have also taken my share with .357s, .44s, and .45s ( both ACP and Colt), and it is all about placement. Study hog anatomy, and then practice, and practice some more. Just food for thought though, compared to that slug out of your shotgun, any and all handgun rounds are a bit on the small side, so yes, I would carry a handgun too, but remember that the shotgun is your main weapon, and if you place the slugs properly, the handgun on your hip will always be just there for peace of mind. Now I am not saying that the bigger guns don't have a slight advantage depending on shot angle, but keep in mind that a small gun needs its bullet placed more precisely, but never go any bigger than you can shoot well either. And remember to practice with that shotgun, A LOT.

[Tatume]

I shot a hog in a pack with a single shot rifle. Another hog from the pack charged me. In the time it took me to put my hand on my sidearm that hog was on me. I didn't have a prayer of drawing the gun in time, let alone getting off a shot.

[MT Gianni]

One of the ways to become proficient with the shotgun is reloading techniques. You must have the mindset that something can do you harm and you have to stop it. You cannot consider yourself a cartridge reloader and have any concern about brass or shell casings. Practice grabbing two shells or holding two between the first and middle fingers and middle and ring fingers. When your gun goes empty, pump or SA, toss one in the open action and close it then slide the other into the magazine. Do that until it is second nature and it will be quicker than getting a pistol out if the cartridges are in a looped vest. Like all guns yours will send the bullet where your barrel is pointing when the trigger is pulled plus lock time. Make sure that yours is on target, not just close enough and you should not need a fast reload. When the action is over and only then go into reloader mode and find your brass.

[gtgeorge]

I have carried a .357 as well as a 45 ACP while hog hunting with a ML and twice I have had to draw the sidearm over the years. Both worked fine but I prefer a semi auto as a charging hog is FAST and not likely you will hit it with the first shot. So far they both have dropped them in their tracks but was the 3rd round that hit as I was coming up for a sight picture and the first bang caused it to turn slightly where it may not have ran into me or my son right behind me.

[Bonz]

Personally, I believe that hog hunting should always be done with a buddy along side you as backup. Those little running pork roasts are just too fast, especially when they are camouflaged and hidden by the brush and real close to you.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Love Life: I agree with you on the practice point, however if you don't know what you're doing in the first place, how can you practice effectively? Just shooting with no real purpose is pointless and a waste of ammo. When you start shooting big guns you physically can't shoot one that much due to the recoil, so you have to get the most out of how much you can shoot. Knowing what you are trying to accomplish will help immensely.

One of the first things that is required in order to learn something, is the realization that you don't already know how to do it.

Next, is the willingness to let someone teach you.

Knowing how to effectively present a weapon is not something anyone is born knowing how to do. It has to be learned, and in order to be learned, it must be taught by someone who knows how to do it properly, and can communicate that to another person.

Proper stance, loading and unloading, proper sight picture, trigger control, fixing malfunctions are all part of the show.

Not saying anyone HAS to go to Front Sight or Gunsite or Thunder Ranch, but I guarantee they will be a better shooter when they come back. Just finding a local instructor who could teach you the basics would be better than just shooting without any training.

I thought I knew what I was doing also. I found out shortly after my first class began that I didn't know squat. Also nobody has ever breathed down the back of my neck while I was shooting. These places teach literally thousands of people a month (Front Sight did 80,000+ last year alone from one facility) so they must have something of value to trade for your money.

I consider training to be one of the most beneficial things you can spend your shooting $ on.

My .02 YMMV

Randy

[M-Tecs]

I shot a hog in a pack with a single shot rifle. Another hog from the pack charged me. In the time it took me to put my hand on my sidearm that hog was on me. I didn't have a prayer of drawing the gun in time, let alone getting off a shot.

So what happened? Did you get killed?:kidding:

Hopefully nothing serious but I would very much like to hear the rest of the story.

[9.3X62AL]

Whichever one you pick, I would recommend a double action. Just draw and start squeezing.

Front sight is not needed for you to be able to adequately defend yourself (or hunt) with either your shotgun or new revolver.

Just get it to the range and pactice your draw, presentation, and shooting. You can even practice your draw and presentation at home (ensure firearms are unloaded).

Don't waste your money on a shooting school. Just practice at the range. All the money you waste on a shooting school can be spent on MORE ammo and components which can be used to build proficency...all without BTDT James Yeager types mouth breathing all over you.

^^^THIS^^^

Add-on, for originality's sake......the 44 Special loaded to Elmer Keith levels (240 grain bullet @ 1100-1200 FPS) has tipped over a whole lot of big/nasty/ugly critters since Mr. Keith started his work 80-odd years ago. The 45 Colt in its 1873 form had a design spec that REQUIRED its bullet to penetrate a cavalry mount (or Indian pony) to strike an enemy using that mount for cover, and the load achieved that goal. My point here is that whether we carry the 44/45 afield as a primary or secondary tool, the calibers are capable of reaching the vitals of a game critter without resorting to uber-heavy-for-caliber bullets or to uber-ultra-velocity loadings to make meat. The important factor in harvesting or stopping the critter is to place that round where it needs to go, and any variable that promotes that outcome seems like a "positive" to me. Elmer Keith said as much himself concerning his SWC bullet in 44 caliber, the #429421--"1200 FPS is all you need".

[Tatume]

So what happened? Did you get killed?:kidding:

Hopefully nothing serious but I would very much like to hear the rest of the story.

I like to think the hog realized I was going to stand my ground and fight, and that is why he broke off the charge. It was very close, and was very exciting, but he did not kill me. :-)

The alternative is that the charge wasn't a charge at all, and that he didn't realize I was there until he saw the movement of me going for my sidearm. Either way, the gun saved me, and either way, I never "cleared leather" in time to get off a shot.

Take care, Tom

[Bonz]

I've seen a couple of people get bit on the leg and some that just got knocked down

[gtgeorge]

WHen shot at most hogs charging you don't realize you are there and you are in the way of their retreat....At least that is my belief but they get shot either way as I am not capable of running or climbing a tree. :Fire: Glad it turned out that way for you Tom but I won't be taking any chances when they charge me....knock wood I have managed to draw and fire but not so sure if they weren't short barrel carry pistols.

[Love Life]

If a person can't adequately practice drawing a handgun, aquiring the target, and consistent trigger pull without the aid of a "Trained pro" then they need to take up a new hobby. Like underwater basket weaving without a snorkel or other breathing apparatus.

1. Ensure firearm is unloaded
2. Ensure you have pants, belt, and correct holster on
3. Insert firearm into holster
4. Grab firearm by the grip/handle and remove from holster
5. Push firearm out in front of you
6. While pushing infront of you, ensure it is in line with your vision
7. Ensure your front sight post is centered in your rear sight notch
8. Make sure number 7 is superimposed on your target on the wall
9. Squeeze trigger and watch for any movement of the firearm and sights
10. Holster firearm
11. Repeat 5000 times or more. 10 minutes a day while watching the boob tube will get you there quick.

There! I just saved Jamesconn a whole bunch of money!!!

[kweidner]

Love life keepin it real. I would carry at least a .41. Myself my titanium model 357. Light powerful, and quick on the draw. Funny though during small game dates on our WMA land you can only hunt with small game weapons. If you have a carry permit you can carry what you like just not hunt with it. That is some sort of rimfire or muzzle loader to hunt with. I hunt with my 6" scoped taurus .22 and backup with my .41. Funny as this may sound it is the law I'm following.

[W.R.Buchanan]

LL: you don't need the trained pro to practice what you said above. You just need the trained pro to show you what to do in the first place. Your checklist is not something someone is going to know about unless he frequents this forum. I haven't seen it anywhere else. Also somebody had to tell you these things or after 50 years you just figured them out for yourself. It might seem easy to you, but believe me there are many people who can make the simplest things hard, very easily. I know for sure that you know some of them, because everyone knows someone like this.

Do you think you could have learned to add, subtract, multiply and divide by yourself with no instruction?

I have been in classes at Front Sight where there were Women who literally didn't know which end of the gun the bullet came out of. They needed hands on instruction because they were completely blank slates. I have also been in classes with men who thought they knew how to shoot only to watch one shoot himself in the leg on the second day because he couldn't remember to remove his finger from the trigger guard while re-holstering his $2500 1911... After he forgot to put the safety on! He was 60 years old and had been shooting for 50 years.

Drilling in a controlled environment is a good thing. I'm not saying YOU have to do it, I'm only saying that it is a positive thing which most people can benefit from. Otherwise these schools wouldn't exist. Lets say you can holster and draw your gun 50 times in 10 minutes. To do it 5000 times you are looking at 100 days.

Front Sight can take you from zero knowledge to being able to draw and fire 2 shots on target from the surrender position in 1.5 seconds in less than 4 days! So the choice is 100 days to become somewhat competent for $0,,, or 4 days to become pretty good and you have to pay for it.

All depends on your priorities.

Randy

[Love Life]

It was all logical progression to me.

I wanted to shoot so I bought a gun.
I wanted to carry the gun so I bought a holster for it.
I wanted the holstered gun on me so I wore pants with a belt.
When I started shooting the gun I realized I was slow.
So.....I practiced drawing the gun, acquiring the target, and dry/live firing to build proficiency.
When I felt off balance, I adjusted my stance.

Rinse and repeat as needed.

Done.

[W.R.Buchanan]

You've seen my new S&W 696 popper on the other thread. I have never used a revolver for combat type of shooting.

I do plan on doing it soon however in my local IDPA matches.

I have been shooting the hell out of the TV just like you said for the last week waiting for my holster to arrive. Practicing my presentation, trigger control and sight alignment so when the holsters do arrive I can easily add them into the mix. I even have speed loaders and dummy rounds to practice loading and reloading just like Jerry Miculek showed me. I can do this until I actually get good or I can make a trip to Nevada and spend two days and actually be good when I come home.

The big difference here is that I already have a pretty good idea of what I need to do and only need to refine my technique with the revolver. This is done by drilling and live firing. Getting coaching along the way also helps immensely. If I didn't know what I was doing I'd probably just be developing bad habits that would need to be broken later.

You see,,, I am really good with my Glocks,,, but I am a babe in the woods with a revolver. Thus I need instruction from someone who knows more about it than I do.

Much faster than Osmoses . :grin: Plus that I am already a member so all it costs me to go is ammo and gas. That membership was the best shooting investment I ever made and I only wished that I had known about the place 10 years earlier.

Randy

[Tatume]

It took humans thousands of years to learn to do simple math, and many people today still cannot. One doesn't learn math by osmosis, or any other filtering method. I've watched students who recently graduated from high school who couldn't divide 10 by 5 and get 2 without a calculator.

While it may not be necessary to go to an expensive shooting school, we all learn from someone. We all practice what we learn too, or it does us no good. You are both right. To be a proficient handgunner, one must be taught, and one must practice.

Take care, Tom

[Hickory]

If a person can't adequately practice drawing a handgun, aquiring the target, and consistent trigger pull without the aid of a "Trained pro" then they need to take up a new hobby. Like underwater basket weaving without a snorkel or other breathing apparatus.

1. Ensure firearm is unloaded
2. Ensure you have pants, belt, and correct holster on
3. Insert firearm into holster
4. Grab firearm by the grip/handle and remove from holster
5. Push firearm out in front of you
6. While pushing infront of you, ensure it is in line with your vision
7. Ensure your front sight post is centered in your rear sight notch
8. Make sure number 7 is superimposed on your target on the wall
9. Squeeze trigger and watch for any movement of the firearm and sights
10. Holster firearm
11. Repeat 5000 times or more. 10 minutes a day while watching the boob tube will get you there quick.

There! I just saved Jamesconn a whole bunch of money!!!

This is excellent advice for any shooting/hunting situation.
Then at least once a month, twice a month would be better, put it on paper to see how good you are.

[35 Whelen]

This is all good but like so many other acquired skills that are never used, or at least highly unlikely to be used, practice becomes monotonous unless you just enjoy it.

As a kid we raised hogs and yes sows, even the most dog-gentle, can be pretty irritable when one messes with their little ones. Still they're not too hard to get away from and as someone mentioned most "charges" by hogs are most likely a mistake on their part simply because they couldn't or didn't see their antagonist.

It's fun to discuss the best handgun for stopping a charging hog but really most of us are probably more likely to win a night on the town with Jennifer Anniston than to be charged by a hog!

35W

[white eagle]

I have a strong affinity for the 44 cal.so that would be my recomendation
shoot both cals but in your application I would carry a foe d foe

[Bonz]

I was offered a year ago by a member to come to Texas and do some serious hog hunting. Texas style is with AR10 & AR15 with nightscopes. I really missed out on an great opportunity.

[Petrol & Powder]

A lot of opinions here so I'll chime in. [why not? it's fun, it's free]
I don't know much about hunting hogs, which is to say I know nothing about hunting hogs. However if the goal is to use a handgun to stop the animal that is charging you, a few things have to happen:
1. You need to be able to get the gun into play quickly
2. You need to be able to put the bullet(s) in the right place
3. Once the bullet gets there, it must be capable of damaging the animal enough to stop it.

Given the criteria of a .357 magnum or a 44 magnum revolver, as the original poster did; we're really only talking about number 3 from the above list. Assuming the shooter can quickly put the bullet in the right place under some stress, I think either of those cartridges is more than capable of stopping the animal. However, the heavier 44 caliber projectile will provide a greater margin in terms of terminal ballistics. (its behavior once it strikes the target) I would rather have a bullet that I could always put in the right place over a bullet that is devastating if I manage to put it in the right place. Given that, my vote would be for some 44 caliber slug of at least 250gr driven fast enough to yield decent penetration but not so fast that it is difficult to shoot well. I'm not convinced that's a 44 magnum, it may just be a hot 44 Special.

[youngmman]

I've never hunted hogs but understand they are pretty tough and can get really obnoxious when shot so it seems like you would want something to put them down quickly. I shoot 357, 44mag/44special using the Keith 250 gn SWC (H&G 503) and the LBT WFN's in 250gn for 44mag and 220 for 44special. The 357 is great with the LBT 180 WFN. This is the bullet Remington chose for it's 357 hunting line many years ago. In terms of killing power any of them will work pretty well but personally I would prefer the 44 mag for a critter that could mame me like I have heard some hogs have done. The 250 WFN @ about 1200 FPS in 44mag will kill most anything and isn't hard on the shooter either.

Many of the loads mentioned in this thread will do the job but like anything in hunting just make sure it's placed where it counts.

[Bonz]

It truly depends on where you are hunting. Those little piggies don't like to stand out in the open unless they have to. They run a lot faster than most people can imagine.

http://youtu.be/8RoPTqarMeM

[Love Life]

This is all good but like so many other acquired skills that are never used, or at least highly unlikely to be used, practice becomes monotonous unless you just enjoy it.


35W

That is when the onus is on the person practicing to get a little discipline in their body and follow through with their practice.


I would like to go on a hot date with Jennifer Anniston. Heck, I might even chip in on the bill!!!

[Geraldo]

I've shot hogs from about 35 to 250+ pounds with rifles, shotguns, muzzleloaders, and once with a .44. The only reason I carried the .44 was when my main weapon was a muzzleloader. With a rifle or shotgun I wouldn't even bother carrying a handgun.

Good hits put them down, poking holes in them doesn't.

[DougGuy]

Ok we have to raffle off a custom hunt where you take Jennifer Anniston hog hunting, and you have a 2hr pre-hunt checklist where you get to teach her how to wear, draw, aim and fire the sidearm she will carry to accompany her choice of lever gun or semi-auto shotgun. :bigsmyl2:

I get a kick out of some of the youtube hog hunts, where the guy in britain is getting charged and he should have been BANG BANG BANG with his rifle, and he basically stands there trying to think of what to do and the hog knocks him down. He had about 8 seconds from start of charge to do something. There is another one where the hunter shoots one out of a pack and another one swings wide then charges in on him, and he is shooting the whole time. And hitting!

Sometimes it takes a LOT to put an animal down, you could be scoring boiler room hits and they are still coming at you. It will make a 45-70 seem like a Fanner50 cap gun when you shoot and nothing happens. The point I am making is this, as mentioned earlier, you should train with both your primary arm AND your sidearm to respond by reflex, so you automatically go into the defense mode, and your training/practice takes over to the point that you are doing what you are supposed to be doing, before you really have a chance to think about it. It needs to be a reflex if it's going to do you any good.

[35 Whelen]

My wife and I were deer hunting a couple of years ago when I spotted a boar down in a draw. "You want to shoot him?", I ask. "Sure." replies she, and so she does. At the shot he bolts, evidently not concerned in the least about finding who caused his pain and runs for all he's worth for maybe 50 yds. then kneels over, dead as a hammer.

He was pretty nice at about 250-275 lbs. and she killed him with, of all things, a little ol' 6mm Remington. Several years ago I was slipping through a field of haygrazer when I walked up on a big boar at maybe 15 yds distance. I shot him through the lungs with a 140 gr Partition. He too departed for parts unknown likewise totally unconcerned with doing me bodily harm. I found him dead a few dozen yards away.

Point of these two stories as well as many others untold, is they ain't hard to kill and they're not as vicious as they're usually made out to be!

35W

[W.R.Buchanan]

+1 on the hog hunt raffle with JA. I'm in ! however I doubt any of us will be looking at, or for, hogs on that hunt.

All my attention would be on the caboose.

Love Life; I'll buy your raffle ticket too, just to show you what kind of a guy I am... :bigsmyl2: God I wish life was this easy.

Randy

[Love Life]

I'm in for the raffle! Of course, she may have some questions on why we are doing all our pre-hunting prep buck nekkid...

Then I'll explain the inherent danger of drag caused by clothing and how it can slow down the draw. That should work!

[9.3X62AL]

That is when the onus is on the person practicing to get a little discipline in their body and follow through with their practice.


I would like to go on a hot date with Jennifer Anniston. Heck, I might even chip in on the bill!!!

LL, for dinner with Jen Anniston, I'd max out a couple Mastercards. In reality, BOTH of us are like Lab Retrievers chasing an F-250.......even if we catch it, we likely couldn't drive it.

I'm not necessarily opposed to formal firearms familiarization & training, but like a lot of folks on this board I grew up around gun folks and the tools were always 'in the background', at minimum. I was educated about gun safety due to their presence just like I was taught about teeth-brushing and swimming. Sadly, I have learned that folks like us are in the minority--despite the historic ties of firearms to our nation and culture. I have seen MANY shooters at our Academy that were truly the "blank slates" spoken of above, and in both sexes. I'm sure that military basic trainers have had many similar experiences. I understand that while Love Life and I came into the game with the advantages of acculturation and deep familiarity, not everyone has that kind of foundation. So, a good shooting school can assist in acquiring skills--but do a good costs/benefits analysis prior to attendance. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and some of these sites charge a fortune for education that is available at nominal cost from less profit-driven entities. Caveat emptor.

[35 Whelen]

LL, for dinner with Jen Anniston, I'd max out a couple Mastercards. In reality, BOTH of us are like Lab Retrievers chasing an F-250.......even if we catch it, we likely couldn't drive it.

I'm not necessarily opposed to formal firearms familiarization & training, but like a lot of folks on this board I grew up around gun folks and the tools were always 'in the background', at minimum. I was educated about gun safety due to their presence just like I was taught about teeth-brushing and swimming. Sadly, I have learned that folks like us are in the minority--despite the historic ties of firearms to our nation and culture. I have seen MANY shooters at our Academy that were truly the "blank slates" spoken of above, and in both sexes. I'm sure that military basic trainers have had many similar experiences. I understand that while Love Life and I came into the game with the advantages of acculturation and deep familiarity, not everyone has that kind of foundation. So, a good shooting school can assist in acquiring skills--but do a good costs/benefits analysis prior to attendance. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and some of these sites charge a fortune for education that is available at nominal cost from less profit-driven entities. Caveat emptor.

You raise some really good points. I often forget that I was taught to shoot a rifle before I learned to ride a bicycle, and then spent so many of my younger years in a rural environment where it was possible to shoot every single day if I so desired.

35W

[W.R.Buchanan]

I was taught to shoot when I was 4-5 years old, however that was with my dad holding the gun because I was too small to do it myself. My Favorite Uncle taught me a little more when I was 8-9 and that included shooting Ground Squirrels at the Dump resting it over the hood of his 52 Nash. (can't do that now!)

My real training started when I was 12 and got my first Real Gun a REM 514. I went thru a Hunter Safety course provided by the Ventura Police Department at their pistol range. It was free to anyone under 15 years old! They don't even have a pistol Range any more! and it damn sure wouldn't be free even if they did.

I shot an M16 once in the Air Force for qualifying. We got 60 rounds, all of which went thru the target sideways. That was it for Military Training, however I shot my own guns frequently while in Texas from 69 to 72 and that is where I started reloading ammo. Guns and shooting were my primary hobby for much of my Adult Life until I back burnered them to pursue Rock Crawling and 4 Wheeling in Jeeps in 92.

Then my Bro in Law got two free passes to Front Sight. That was in 2002. We went and I was hooked before lunch the first day, best run school of any kind I had ever attended!!! Bar None!. I also started buying guns again and got all my old reloading tools out and started that as well. I warned my Bro in Law that he got me started with guns again and I would get him into reloading. Now my Sister in Law cusses me everytime we go shooting.

The school made me an exponentially better shooter than I was before. Since I have a heightened understanding of firearms techniques and usage it has opened the door to new shooting disciplines, like IDPA, 3 gun, Trap and Skeet shooting, and Long and Short Range Silhouette. If I was free to do so, I could shoot something almost everyday throughout the month.

I was down to an Air Rifle, a .22, a .30-06, and a Shotgun. Now I am back up to 40+ with a fervent desire for several more. I can reload just about anything, and have several ways to do it.

Nothing breeds confidence more than success. I finally won my Clubs Rimfire Silhouette championship last year and am shooting for it again this year. Next year I will concentrate on Cowboy Silhouette and Skeet. Things I have learned at this school have made me able to win these games.

Mind you I have been shooting my entire life, but I only got half way good in the last 10-12 years. This is due to the training I have received.

The confidence I got from being trained at Front Sight has allowed me to excel at something I have yearned for my entire life. My Rifle training there has taught me how to sight in a rifle correctly, proper stance, how to run the gun and keep it running, how to shoot that gun at longer distances and actually hit something, and how to shoot in a combat situation, (hope I never have to, but I'll be better off than someone with no training at all.)

If you look at it from a purely fiduciary standpoint, with X amount of money to spend. (How ever much you allocate to your hobby and entertainment) You would budget a certain amount to buying guns, buying ammo, reloading tools and accessories, actual shooting, and then maybe some training.

I submit that you will get the most "bang for your shooting $," out of the training portion of the expenditures. You'll shoot more in a shorter period of time, and that's what makes you good.

Last time I did a 4 day pistol class, me and my Bro in law shot 800 rounds each in 4 days! We were good when we came back and swept our next IDPA shoot by a large margin.

We did a Practical Rifle Class last summer and came back and killed the local 3 gun shoot. We only shot 400 rifle rounds in that class in 4 days. But,,, in the man on man shoot off during the 3rd day of the class I beat 58 out of 60 shooters, mostly LEO's Ex military and a mix of others of all ages, losing on the last round to an Ex Scout Sniper 3 months back from AFG!

For me,,, the final round lasted 3 seconds ,,, he only took 2 seconds to knock down the 3 targets.

I was 63 at the time,,, and he was 29!

He had more training than me! :Fire:

Randy

[Love Life]

Training is always good, but what is training? To me, training is repetition to get proficient at something.

I'm not saying front site is worthless, but I am saying that it is not necessary. My mom won two free passes to front site and I have been wanting her to go for years. Maybe one day she will. However; She has free passes...

If anybody does decide to pay for training, please heavily screen them to make sure they are legit. I have seen some courses that were just preposterous. Wanting you to throw your gun in the dirt to "Simulate" combat environments. Sorry Homie, in my times in combat environments I have never thrown my weapon in the dirt...

Conclusion: Do I feel training classes are necessary? No. I feel that solid range time with no "I was just blastin' away!!!" is adequate. However; should you decide to drop hard money on a course, then please go to a reputable training facility.

[W.R.Buchanan]

"Training is always good, but what is training? To me, training is repetition to get proficient at something."

Exactly! And if your Mom has two free passes you should be the one to go with her!

I guarantee that your opinion on this subject will change dramatically upon your return. I'd go in late September of this year. You might even see me.[smilie=p:

And it is most efficiently done in a controlled environment with instructors or coaches supervising and not allowing bad habits to form and coaching proper form as taught by that particular school. They do vary somewhat, but all of the big ones do tend to follow the majority of Jeff Cooper's techniques. Cooper pretty much wrote the book on modern Pistol and Rifle craft.

Brad Ackman was Jeff Cooper's #1 prote'ge'. He runs Front Sight. Like I said FS ran 80,000+ thru courses last year. They were very busy!

The actions of running and shooting Military style weapons is well documented. The Techniques are well established and training in Reputable Modern Shooting Schools mimics the current training that our Military and Law Enforcement get. Most of the instructors are ex military instructors. The Military, especially infantry above the grunt level are getting lots of shooting time. The Ex Scout Sniper who beat me at FS told me that they were shooting on a range with rifle and pistol 2 times a week for several hours each time with serious pressure on them all the time. Kind of like combat would be.

While in the AF I got to shoot an M16 one morning for 4 hours and 60 rounds total. That's it! Things have changed dramatically as far as training in our military. Law Enforcement has benefited from these advances as well and that has trickled down to civilians, who by and large are better trained than ever before in the history of this country primarily due to the training they got in the military. It would be a serious mistake for another country to invade the US, and pretty much everyone knows this. That's why we have "terrorists," instead of direct assaults.

It's the "intensity of the repetition" that really delivers the desired level of improvement. Shooting under time pressure also has a lot of benefit. All of this could conceivably be done by the individual, however it would be difficult to do it as effectively as a regimented class can do. I can go to my Garage and dry practice a few nights a week for 15-20 minutes and come up to speed, but I will not achieve the same level of Speed versus Accuracy, that I get out of even a few hours at the range under supervision. They can push you harder than you will push yourself. They can also push you in the right direction and nip any bad habits you're developing in the bud.

I have spent more time correcting bad habits I have developed thru misunderstandings about techniques, than I would have had if I was a blank slate to begin with. Old habits die hard.

Never think you won't benefit from more training. That "you can't teach and old dog new tricks" line has always been BS.

When John McEnroe was asked what he spent all his money on?,,, His answer was,,,, "Tennis Lessons!" :mrgreen:

Hope to see you there! I'll buy lunch!

Randy

[Mohillbilly]

I'd use my 4 5/8 Blackhawk with 250 - 300 gr cast and loaded to about 1000 fps .

[Jamesconn]

Ok I looked at reviews of where I was going to hunt and everybody talked about meth heads and running into meth labs. I was going to go there solo and scout this weekend, but I'm not too sure about that now.

[gtgeorge]

To bag the Meth heads you will want a 44 mag with a short barrel for fast draw. :Fire:

[Lonegun1894]

But don't bother taking them to the taxidermist. The result just isn't worth it.

[gray wolf]

Wow , this is a great thread, BUT, could we drift just a little and get back to Jen Anniston.
A couple of Pics wouldn't hurt,
just saying.

[Love Life]

The only way I'll post pictures of Jennifer Anniston is if all you old timers promise to take your Nitro first. I don't want to held liable for any heart issues caused by posting that good looking of a woman. She was hot on Friends when I was teenager, and she's still hot over a decade later.

[44man]

All of you forget the most important thing. Practice every day. You can go through front Sight but if you don't continue on your own after, you lose it all. Muscle memory goes real fast. Your brain thinks but it lost control.
I remember as a youngster shooting bottles out of the air with my Mark I Ruger. I tossed bottles over head and busted them and soon held the gun in my left hand so I could throw them farther right handed, grab the gun from my left hand and break the bottle. After a month, going back to the dump and I had to start again just over head. It all went away.
If you get good and don't do it for a year between seasons, good luck drawing and hitting. The speed stuff can never be let up for a week. Better every day.
We don't have the time or money to stay in top shape.
How many that did good in algebra in school can even do it now? Did you ever need the math in your life?
My shotgun shooting long ago was unreal but today i can't hit a clay because we have no birds here to hunt but I used to triple on quail in a covey and double on grouse, almost never missed a pheasant. I killed rabbits on the run with slingshots, bows and revolvers long ago. Today you need to give me 100 shots with a standing rabbit.
You will lose it so don't tell me you can hit a bear between the eyes with a quick draw and short barrel after taking a course.
Remember Bob Munden? God rest his soul, great loss. Did you see his hands? BLACK from powder.
Mental state is never looked at either, can you stand your ground and aim calmly? I see buck fever even with a little deer. Hear about cops shooting a hundred rounds without a hit an a BG.
Fear will destroy you.

[Jamesconn]

All of you forget the most important thing. Practice every day. You can go through front Sight but if you don't continue on your own after, you lose it all. Muscle memory goes real fast. Your brain thinks but it lost control.
I remember as a youngster shooting bottles out of the air with my Mark I Ruger. I tossed bottles over head and busted them and soon held the gun in my left hand so I could throw them farther right handed, grab the gun from my left hand and break the bottle. After a month, going back to the dump and I had to start again just over head. It all went away.
If you get good and don't do it for a year between seasons, good luck drawing and hitting. The speed stuff can never be let up for a week. Better every day.
We don't have the time or money to stay in top shape.
How many that did good in algebra in school can even do it now? Did you ever need the math in your life?
My shotgun shooting long ago was unreal but today i can't hit a clay because we have no birds here to hunt but I used to triple on quail in a covey and double on grouse, almost never missed a pheasant. I killed rabbits on the run with slingshots, bows and revolvers long ago. Today you need to give me 100 shots with a standing rabbit.
You will lose it so don't tell me you can hit a bear between the eyes with a quick draw and short barrel after taking a course.
Remember Bob Munden? God rest his soul, great loss. Did you see his hands? BLACK from powder.
Mental state is never looked at either, can you stand your ground and aim calmly? I see buck fever even with a little deer. Hear about cops shooting a hundred rounds without a hit an a BG.
Fear will destroy you.

You make it seem like I shouldn't even try, just let whatever charges kill me.

[DougGuy]

You make it seem like I shouldn't even try, just let whatever charges kill me.

Nahh, I know where 44man is coming from, and what he describes is correct. All he is saying is don't practice and then take those skills for granted and not practice anymore because when you go back to what you learned, it won't be as fast and as accurate as when you learned it. Just practice some before you go on this hunt and hope you don't have to rely on your backup!

[Love Life]

In my world, we call what 44man described a perishable skill. Use it or lose it. While you will retain basic proficiency, you'll lose the ability to do it with out thinking IE muscle memory. Liek I said, 10 minutes a day and you'll be set.

[44man]

Yes, practice makes perfect is all I am saying. it all comes natural with practice and you don't need to think. but stop and you need to start over again.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Plus 1 on the above statements. it does go away. The good news is when you get the techniques down pat, you have the basis to go back and dry practice it back up to speed. That coupled with some range time and you can be back to speed in very short order.

I get to go to Front Sight for Refresher Courses (Known as Skill Builders) at least once a year and I try to go to one pistol class and one Rifle class. These are two day classes and are made for people who have been thru the basic Defensive Handgun/Rifle classes. In other words they are not catering to "blank slates" in these classes. You are expected to know the basics and they are intended to push you up to competition speed very quickly.

Last time I went to a Pistol Skill builder class, by lunch the first day I was back up to speed. I was breaking first shots @.8 seconds, and second shots consistently at @1.30 seconds in. I was also drilling holes in the center of the target out to 15 yards.

One year we went in January and it was so cold we bailed at noon on the second day and went to the SHOT Show. I was talking to Todd Jarrett who is just about as good a shooter as there is, and he was breaking his first shot consistently at .68 seconds with no concealment. I was at .8 seconds with concealment . I am not comparing myself to him because he has more experience in one month than I will get in my lifetime, but he was very encouraging and told me to stick with it cause I had the basics down well. He asked where I got the training and was happy to hear it was Front Sight. Mind you he runs his own school, but is of a mind that top tier training is good no matter who is providing it, as it all goes to the common cause of "Responsible Gun Ownership."

The time pressure for a controlled pair from concealment goes,,, 1.3 seconds at 3 yards, 1.5 seconds at 5 yards, 1.7 seconds for 7 yards, 2.1 at 10 yards, 2.7 at 15 yards and 3.2 at 25 yards. They take you up to these speeds on a gradient and your speed increases with each gradient. In these classes nobody is left behind and the way they tell is after the start of each stage ALL of the shots in the class break at the same time and literally sound like "one loud shot."

What they are showing and teaching you is all the little places that you can take time out of the presentation,,, which in turn, gives you more time to pick up and align the sights, and actually hit the mark.

Here's one that you may not have heard. The harder you slap your chest with your support hand, the faster your firing hand will get on the grip of the gun. It takes one minute to see that this actually works. How many of you have heard this before? I learned this along with about five other little twists that take time out of your presentation. All of them contribute to a faster draw and more time to align the sights to insure good hits.

In the skill builder courses you are expected to already know how to do all of the things you were taught in the basic courses. They don't spend as much time on Safety issues simply because you are already supposed to know these. However if you show that you don't know them, they will either bring you up to speed very quickly or move you to a different class where you can learn these basic skills better. We saw two people get bounced to other classes in that class.

They are concentrating of speed and accuracy. They also spend time on malfunction clearing drills which as stated before, you are already supposed to know how to do.

Buy the time I'm done with the 2 days we have fired about 350-400 rounds,,, and I am vicious! You leave with a new level of confidence.

This is the point where if the situation arose,,, I know I can outdraw all but the most professional of shooters. I'm looking for any lapse in their concentration for me to get ahead of them on the draw. In a 2 second gunfight, if you are 1 second ahead,,, you win! And you know it while it is happening. You also know if you are behind and all you can hope for at that point is that your opponent misses with his first shot. If you have the presence of mind, you can drop to a knee and make him miss.

Better to be ahead.

Lots to learn here. You just need to go to school. :mrgreen:

Randy

[44man]

You make it seem like I shouldn't even try, just let whatever charges kill me.
Not in the least, but what if you need seconds to find your gun or forget to cock it if single action? Even something as simple as a safety position can throw you off. I hated the Winchester's shotgun safeties. I was used to one behind the trigger guard or on top, never could reach the WW safety so when hunting I had to hold my finger on it, hand out of position on the grip. Still don't like the thing in the front of the guard.
See all the stuff about a few breaking into a home and the owner shoots at them, they run off, never a hit or kill. No good with a bear, they won't run off.
Just practice.

[Bonz]

I try to get to the range a couple a times a month just to stay sharp and to keep myself from overstocking loaded ammunition ;-)

[Love Life]

The bottom line is to practice, practice, and practice some more.

[Jamesconn]

I would practice more but the range I like is 45 minutes away and I have to pay a toll. It's pretty much a bench and a dirt backstop I usually have it to myself. That's what I like I do not like having wait times to use a stall indoors pay a lot for it, shoot at the same target all the time, and you have range officer people telling you not to fire too fast and you can't pick up your own brass.

[W.R.Buchanan]

James: Would you like me to extol to you the virtues of "Dry Practice?" You can do that at home and the effects are nearly as good as shooting at a range.

Dry Practice is the act of practicing your presentation and dry firing with your normal sidearm. 10 minutes a day once or twice a week can do wonders for you. Also Practicing your malfunction drills is a valuable way to keep those skills up to speed. All pistols malfunction at one time or another and the reasons are many and varied. Revolvers generally don't malfunction however you still need to know how to unload and quickly reload the gun.

Ever since I got my S&W696 a week ago I have been shooting the hell out of the TV developing some semblance of trigger control (and it has a sweet DA pull and the SA pull is about 1.5 lbs. and is as crisp as a "Montana Morning." :roll: ) I have also been practicing my Ejection of spent cartridges and reloading using Speed Loaders. I am following Jerry Miculek's techniques as close as I can since I have never used a DA Revolver in a Combat type of scenario. He is the best there is, and luckily I have watched his instructions on TV with a close eye to detail. This will get me started until I go to FS this fall and get drilled on all of this. Then I will come home and dry practice in between IDPA shoots to keep my skills in tact.

I do the same thing with my Glocks and Rifles.

The biggest problem with Dry Practice is maintaining perfect form. If you Dry Practice wrong, you end up creating more problems that just have to be unlearned at the next trip to Front Sight. I have experienced this first hand. :oops:

Randy

[Lefty Red]

I won't put any professional instructor or instruction down. I paid $500 and spent three days in Georgia way back when and learned to shoot a snub nose. Now its my favorite and most accurate weapon in real world defense distances for me.

I will give a nod to Mas Ayoob and his Stress Fire shooting "style". I use it and find myself not thinking about it. Its simple and works. Always good. And think it would work pretty well with a hog coming at you.

Jerry

[gray wolf]

The biggest problem with Dry Practice is maintaining perfect form. If you Dry Practice wrong, you end up creating more problems that just have to be unlearned at the next trip to Front Sight. I have experienced this first hand.

I could disagree with this statement but I won't cause I am not sure exactly what you mean.
So I will if I may just add a thought.
Form is great and very much needed, also it looks good on the square range, and you look good in front of a mirror. ( it's a confidence builder )
IMHO combat shooting in real life is a combination of forms, it's shooting in every conceivable position you can imagine ----and under situations you can't imagine --and then some. There is no one form, or perfect form, good form is a base line we build off of. when the time comes to save your life you may have a glass of water in one hand and a fork full of spaghetti in the other.

Defensive shooting is a ballet of sorts, a combination of moves that when applied allow the shooter the ability to be fluid, the form bends and twist, while delivering shots that stop the fight.

Look in a mirror and apply your perfect form, then picture the attack coming from one side or the other, perhaps from behind, you don't have time to re-position your feet, Now what happens to your perfect form ? it must adjust to the situation, so what was perfect becomes--shall we say, not so perfect. Perhaps a shot bending over and between your legs if grabbed from behind. Fluid, fluid, fluid -- Front sight on target and squeeze, do it till the threat is removed.
No way do I think training is bad and some of the places that take your money are worth every cent you pay.

Staying alive is being flexible, critical balistic situations do not present the way we want them to, or expect them to.

[9.3X62AL]

I haven't hunted meth heads for almost a decade. They aren't especially fast, as I recall--but tend toward being too stupid to know when to die. Pigs will eat them fairly readily, but prefer acorns or grain crops.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Gray Wolf: In order to practice something correctly you must first know how to do it right. In the case of Basic Pistol Craft this includes basic gun handling, acquiring the basic firing stance, the draw, sight alignment and trigger control.

You have to have this stuff down first before you can go off onto different combat scenarios. All of which require at least some of the basic skills learned on the square range. And as far as basic safe gun handling goes,,, All of those skills learned on the range. You wouldn't want to shoot yourself, would you?

When I talk "Perfect Practice," I am talking about doing things correctly so as to not encourage bad habits to form.

If you are running around in the Forrest and the need arises your basic draw and presentation will still be of use since you've got to get your gun in action before you can shoot at anything. It doesn't matter if you need to shoot around a tree or under a car, or between your legs or whatever,,, You still have to get the gun out of the holster and get it pointed at something without shooting yourself or your ally. IE: basic gun handling.

I have a Next Level Training SIRT Laser Pistol which mimics my Glocks. It shoots a red laser at targets of my choice. The gun holds very close to a Glock 22 and has a removable magazine so you can practice mag changes etc. The first and most important thing that goes away is your trigger control. The biggest thing this gun helps is to keep you trigger control sharp. With a laser on the gun you can see exactly what your gun is doing while you are pulling the trigger and generally it is not what you think. Same would hold true for Dry Firing with a normal gun with a Crimson Trace Laser sight on it. You can see every little movement of the gun while you are pulling the trigger. You can also eliminate most of it quickly simply because you get real time feedback on what you're doing wrong.

The gun is placed at different places around my shop while I am working, and when I walk by I pick it up and quickly shoot at different targets around the shop for a minute or so. I do this pretty much every time I am in the shop working, because it simulates someone coming to my shop or house uninvited that needs a lesson. I can shoot Strong Hand or Weak Hand, as needed, but I am always going to revert to my normal Weaver Stance as soon as possible, because that is where I have the most control over the gun and shot placement.

Pretty much the types of scenarios you are referring to. :mrgreen:

It also promotes "point shooting" and the only way to get that down is to do it a lot,,, and then do it some more. :Fire:

Point of all this is,,, you have to have something to build on, and that's where the school comes in.

Have a look at this outfit. http://nextleveltraining.com/ Lots to look at here and all of it will help your shooting.

Randy

[gray wolf]

Sorry Randy, didn't mean to get you all defensive, And thinking you had to justify what you do, in the woods or in your shop. Also if you read what I said, I never said training was not good, Fact is this is what I said
No way do I think training is bad and some of the places that take your money are worth every cent you pay.


You have to have this stuff down first before you can go off onto different combat scenarios. All of which require at least some of the basic skills learned on the square range. And as far as basic safe gun handling goes,,, All of those skills learned on the range. You wouldn't want to shoot yourself, would you?

No Randy, I don't want you to shoot yourself, And yes, acquire all the basic skills you need to know before advancing. Sorry you felt you had to go all defensive about it.
I didn't realize you were still at the basic self defense level.
Also you are 100% correct, you need the basic skills first and these should be practiced before any advanced skills are undertaken.
I am glad we are in agreement.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Gray Wolf: no defensive here, We are simply discussing a topic and hijacking this thread. I don't think the OP cares, but the discussion and content are useful, and if anyone benefits from it,,, then it is a good thing. The OP wondered what would be a better back up for his shotgun, a .357 or a .44. The general consensus was to learn to shoot the shotgun better because there was no way he'd get a revolver out and in action during the charge of a vicious beast. This is where the school topic came in.

I don't need to justify my actions as I am perfectly happy with myself, however what I have found is that with regard to the shooting sports,,, most people are at the "Basic Level" or below,,, and all I am trying to convey is that there are people out there who can make them better, and to not ignore schools just because they cost money. You get a lot of bang for your shooting buck from a top tier school. Learning how to do anything correctly is worth something. You just have to convince yourself to go find out what you're missing.

First step is to understand that you aren't that good to begin with. Not pointing fingers either, as I was one who thought they were a lot better than they actually was. As soon as I figured out that I sucked, I took steps to correct this inadequacy.

We are in agreement, and hopefully others will pile on. :bigsmyl2:

Randy

[robertbank]

To the OP really work with the shotgun. A 4" 44 Mag makes sense as it is shorter and should be easier to get out of a holster faster than any longer barreled gun. That said be honest with yourself. If the recoil of a 44Mag is more than you can handle don't hesitate to look at the 357Mag or if you reload download the 44 nag to 44spl levels. If you hit the critter in the hip and break his pelvis most of the problem will be solved. We don't have ferrel pigs up here just a close relative... Black and Grizzlie bears. I carry a shotgun and either my GP - 100 or my Ruger 4 5/8 45Colt ( 8 gr of unique under a 250 gr LSWC)

I don't see any advantage to moving to a buckshot load. At 25 yards my Benelli M4 loaded with Win POX. 12 with 1 1oz slug and 3 plated 00 Buckshot will place the slug and the three plated pellets inside a 8"circle. Velocity is said to be 1150 fps. Lots of umph for sure but the buckshot doesn't spread much. If buckshot works on hogs then so should a .357Mag.

Take Care

Bob


Take Care

Bob

[bob208]

there is a thread just post in o.t section. I think it shows if you are hunting with a shotgun and that don't get it done. you will not have time to get that pistol out.

[starmac]

I guess I probably do it all wrong, but when I am hunting with a rifle, I usually carry a 22 pistol. Now when I am rabbit, grouse hunting, fishing or just out and about I carry a 44 and pray I never need it.
Many hikers, fisherman, gold prospectors, etc,etc, carry a shotgun instead of a pistol for bear protection. The only advantage a pistol has at all is, when in camp or something, it is not leaning against a tree. lol

[robertbank]

I guess I probably do it all wrong, but when I am hunting with a rifle, I usually carry a 22 pistol. Now when I am rabbit, grouse hunting, fishing or just out and about I carry a 44 and pray I never need it.
Many hikers, fisherman, gold prospectors, etc,etc, carry a shotgun instead of a pistol for bear protection. The only advantage a pistol has at all is, when in camp or something, it is not leaning against a tree. lol

The only reason why I bother with a handgun when I am out and about fishing up here is often you wonder up or down stream and the shotgun might well be back with your pack when you need it the most. The shotgun works best up here for sure. Like you say though it may not always be with you.

Take Care

Bob

[DougGuy]

I started carrying a big bore belly gun because the deer insisted on walking right up under my treestand instead of out where the riflescope can get an eye on them! Cannot tell you how many I have shot straight down on with a pistol, all the while trying to make sure my rifle doesn't fall out of my lap.

[gtgeorge]

Funny how this thread became a training thread and a no need for handgun thread. While some may feel secure with their shotgun and the # of rounds most hold. I personally would not be without backup handguns. Apparently those that think it is enough have never came up on a large group of hogs that scatter like flies when shots go off. Many in the direction of the blast.

I usually hunt with a single shot ML during the seasons where it is my best choice of what is allowed and then 2 sidearms for the what if's. I have been involved with a couple of what if's and was glad I had at least one. It is amazing that I have managed to eliminate those what if's with a side arm and I can assure you it was never on the first shot.

If I were to be caring a shotgun to hunt hogs I would still have at least one handgun. You never know when a malfunction occurs and or a need for more ammo than the shotgun usually holds. When my safety is involved I always have a backup.

What comes to mind is a Dr. that hunts in some of the same zones as I do that was attacked by his trophy when the rifle shot upset the animal. When it charged him he was unable to hit it again before it got to him and ended up chewing the rifle he was using as a stick to hold it off and as a club. In the end he lived but had to get to the hospital instead of bleeding out.

I myself have made excellent shots on large hogs and they didn't go down right there. They don't always drop with one shot and instantly.

www.thetruecitizen.com/news/2009-07-08/pdf/Page_01.pdf (http://www.thetruecitizen.com/news/2009-07-08/pdf/Page_01.pdf) and the rest of the story on page 9 www.thetruecitizen.com/news/2009-07-08/pdf/Page_09.pdf (http://www.thetruecitizen.com/news/2009-07-08/pdf/Page_09.pdf)

[gtgeorge]

Well I was warned for a word I used that apparently is not in the ban list. I thought it odd that I was singled out for this word so a simply search of the site shows the word used quite regular. In fact the exact word returned About 1,620 results for this forum. I am all for family oriented but am having a hard time why I was singled out?

Google search (https://www.google.com/search?q=pissed+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fcastboolits.gu nloads.com&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb)

[Love Life]

Well I was warned for a word I used that apparently is not in the ban list. I thought it odd that I was singled out for this word so a simply search of the site shows the word used quite regular. In fact the exact word returned About 1,620 results for this forum. I am all for family oriented but am having a hard time why I was singled out?

Google search (https://www.google.com/search?q=pissed+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fcastboolits.gu nloads.com&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb)

It happens. Just move on with life as bringing it up here on the open forum will not change things. Take it up with the mod who warned you.

[35 Whelen]

LOL!! A while back I was warned by a Moderator after I posted "unpublished" loads. A short time later I found a reference to the same loads in a Sticky elsewhere on this site ! :roll: Moving on...

35W

[W.R.Buchanan]

I got one too for "Thinly Disguised Profanity." Here I thought I was the only one.

Never heard from this guy before?

I apologized and moved on.

Randy

[jmort]

I was given an infraction, not a warning, for using a word that is not profane and also comes up in spades with a google search of this site. Like you noted, the word you used, has been used over 1500 times, probably without consequence. You just have to move on and consider the source and conform to what are clearly arbitrary enforcement standards. How do you conform to arbitrary? Who knows, but you just do you best to not make any waves. Like Randy said, you can apologize and move on.

[gtgeorge]

Thanks guys, my gut instinct was to just stop posting when I realized what I was being spanked for. I did apologize and question the decision. However this is a great forum and I decided to just move on and continue to enjoy this great resource and let the chips fall where they may.

[Lonegun1894]

Just chalk it up to a lesson learned and don't worry about it. Many of us here have stepped on toes without meaning to, so just do what you did and stick around. As to the handgun vs shotgun thing, just carry whatever you're comfortable with and shoot well, regardless of what anyone else thinks. How many times have you heard that placement is the ultimate decision-maker, regardless of caliber used. As long as the caliber is sufficient to penetrate deep enough to get to vitals, it is sufficient, and anything beyond that is just a game of "mine's bigger than yours". Use what works for you, and shoot it well. And as your skill builds, move on up in firepower when you decide, if you think you need to. All I was trying to say was that the better your skill with your main weapon, the less likely you will need your back-up, but your skill with that back-up better be up to par, just in case you do end up needing it.