Anybody With QuickLoad Software Willing to Run an Oddball .45 ACP Calculation For Me?

[TurkeyHuntsman]

Guys: I've always used reloading manual data to get me where I want to go, but I have one unusual reloading situation that I can't find a solution for in the books. Hopefully, somebody with QuickLoad software can help me out.

Sometime ago, I purchased some "pre-sized" .45 ACP, 230 gr. LRN from a guy on CalGuns forum. What I ended up receiving were not 230s, but actually 240+ gr RNs that were unsized, and rather poor quality drops as well, lots of voids. So much for honesty in advertising. I decided to keep them anyway and see what I could do. Can always remelt if need be.

I sized them to .452 on the Lyman and after digging the lube out, I ended up at 238 grains. Not your standard MIL 230 gr, but not too terribly overweight either. I looked far and wide for load data on 240 gr LRN for the .45 ACP, but couldn't find anything even close. I did see some 250 gr SWC loads, but that is way different in boolit shape and weight.

Decided to use starting load data for a standard 230 gr LRN = 4.0 grs of WST. Even with a slightly heavier boolit, I reckoned this would still keep me somewhere down in the mid-to lower velocity/pressure range for this cartridge. Since the book load range for a 230 gr is 4 - 4.5 grs of WST, I also loaded a few at 4.1 and 4.2 grns to test out.

The 4.0 loads shot exceptionally well, with very tight groups and recoil felt mild-to-moderate, like a typical 230 gr target load. The 4.1 felt rather stout and 4.2 snapped so hard that I immediately stopped and took a look at the spent brass. I couldn't see any signs of overpressure, the primer wasn't flattened and didn't see any bolt imprints on the head. Problem is, the .45 ACP is a low-pressure cartridge - and unless one double-charges you probably wouldn't see any obvious overpressure signs anyway.

I'd really like to know what the safe loading range is for this particular setup. I don't have QuickLoad software, as I've never had a situation like this, and probably never will again. If somebody has it, and is willing to help me by running a simulation, I'd be very grateful. Or...is there some other method for determining what the safe load range will be for this particular situation?

Thanks,
Dennis
"Turkey Huntsman"

[petroid]

My version of quickload doesn't have WST. You would think those loads are low enough but something is spiking the pressure. There may be something in the alloy making the boolits exceptionally hard which could cause high pressure. If there are voids it sounds like something wasn't right in the casting, could be zinc contamination or who knows what. The fact that they were slightly overweight is not a surprise as the advertised weight is based on a given alloy and the actual alloy was probably richer in pure lead. Double check your charges and OAL and make sure you're not overcrimping. If all that is ok, then its up to you whether you want to shoot them or remelt them. If they are ok at 4.0 but not at 4.2 I don't think I would risk it. You have to ask yourself how much you trust your powder measure to not drop a little heavy. Another option is to use a slower powder which wouldn't spike pressure so fast. May be a little blasty but safer

[TurkeyHuntsman]

Petroid:

Thanks for the reply. I tested the alloy and it is BHN 12. The "voids" I speak of are the type of incomplete fills one sees when the mold and/or lead is not running at the proper temperature. Some of the voids are nicks and scuffs that appear to be caused by dropping hot boolits on top of each other, instead of being careful. Like I said...this was a crummy casting job done by somebody else. I culled the bad ones for remelt.

My crimp is a taper made with a LEE factory crimp die. It is not going into any cannelure, for obvious reasons. This LRN mold doesn't have a cannelure anyway, just a single grease groove. The crimp is moderate, and it is rather easy for me to take the load apart with just one whack of an inertia puller.

I've since learned that QuickLoad does not have WST in the database, as it is considered more of a shotgun powder. This, even though Winchester provides load data for .45 ACP and a number of other calibers too.

With QL, there is one way you can help me approximate a safe loading range for this heavier bullet. Bullseye is another fast powder often used in the .45 ACP, It's recommended load range is 4.5 - 5.1 grs. If you were to run a QL simulation for a 230 gr boolit using Bullseye, and then run the same sim after increasing boolit weight to 238 grns, one could see the PERCENTAGE load decrease for the heavier boolit. If I were to apply that percentage decrease factor to the 230-gr WST load chart...I'd at least be in the ballpark, instead of guessing.

And what about the use of a chronometer? I know the velocity range for data-manual recommended safe loadings for the 230 gr boolit, so this heavier 238 gr would logically have to travel a bit slower. Can I use the chrono to find a safe loading for this boolit, or is there no direct correlation between safe pressures and resulting velocity?

[petroid]

I don't know if this data can be trusted but here goes....Using bullseye at 5.1gr and using the Hornady 230 gr LRN as the bullet which is preloaded in Quickload, I had to set the COAL to the max of 1.275 to keep the pressure down to 15kpsi. Seating depth drastically raised the pressure. At 1.200" it was over 20kpsi. 4.5gr was 16kpsi at 1.200" and only 12kpsi at 1.275". Now Hornady's 9th lists a max load of Bullseye at 5.5gr and a COL of 1.210". QL indicates this load to hit 23,000 PSI!!! I am not saying that this is an unsafe load but suffice to say that QL is not the end-all for determining what load is safe and what is not, nor is the published reloading data. Every gun will handle a load a little differently and faster powders can really spike pressure quickly. I have not loaded bullseye or any powder near that fast for these reasons. Oh, and the 238gr boolit weight made negligible difference on the pressure as compared to the 230. Now I know that WST is not supposed to be as fast as Bullseye but powders act differently in different cases with different bullets in different guns. A chronograph is probably not going to tell you anything other than how fast your boolits are coming out of the gun. If you are trying to match a load by using a chronograph you still have to listen to the gun to tell you if something is wrong. I personally would double and triple check every step of the loading process. Seat bullets out as far as will reliably cycle and chamber. Make sure your scales are calibrated. Make sure the POWDER is still GOOD. Old powders may not appear to have gone south, but can still deteriorate and mess with your loads. If you have a suitable, but slower powder available, try it. A few starting load rounds and a few midrange ones will tell you if theres something going on with your loading practice or powder selection. And be absolutely sure you're not using magnum primers either on purpose or by accident. Good Luck

[Bonz]

Guys: I've always used reloading manual data to get me where I want to go, but I have one unusual reloading situation that I can't find a solution for in the books. Hopefully, somebody with QuickLoad software can help me out.

Sometime ago, I purchased some "pre-sized" .45 ACP, 230 gr. LRN from a guy on CalGuns forum. What I ended up receiving were not 230s, but actually 240+ gr RNs that were unsized, and rather poor quality drops as well, lots of voids. So much for honesty in advertising. I decided to keep them anyway and see what I could do. Can always remelt if need be.

I sized them to .452 on the Lyman and after digging the lube out, I ended up at 238 grains. Not your standard MIL 230 gr, but not too terribly overweight either. I looked far and wide for load data on 240 gr LRN for the .45 ACP, but couldn't find anything even close. I did see some 250 gr SWC loads, but that is way different in boolit shape and weight.

Decided to use starting load data for a standard 230 gr LRN = 4.0 grs of WST. Even with a slightly heavier boolit, I reckoned this would still keep me somewhere down in the mid-to lower velocity/pressure range for this cartridge. Since the book load range for a 230 gr is 4 - 4.5 grs of WST, I also loaded a few at 4.1 and 4.2 grns to test out.

The 4.0 loads shot exceptionally well, with very tight groups and recoil felt mild-to-moderate, like a typical 230 gr target load. The 4.1 felt rather stout and 4.2 snapped so hard that I immediately stopped and took a look at the spent brass. I couldn't see any signs of overpressure, the primer wasn't flattened and didn't see any bolt imprints on the head. Problem is, the .45 ACP is a low-pressure cartridge - and unless one double-charges you probably wouldn't see any obvious overpressure signs anyway.

I'd really like to know what the safe loading range is for this particular setup. I don't have QuickLoad software, as I've never had a situation like this, and probably never will again. If somebody has it, and is willing to help me by running a simulation, I'd be very grateful. Or...is there some other method for determining what the safe load range will be for this particular situation?

Thanks,
Dennis
"Turkey Huntsman"

If its an unusual bullet (projectile), its absolutely critical to know the maximum length of the bullet after sizing. That information needs to be added to QuickLoad because its a critical part of the equation.

[petroid]

Bonz, that is absolutely true. The length of the boolit is what determines how deeply it is seated for a given OAL and therefore how much case capacity remains which will change pressures dramatically between different boolits. I was giving a hypothetical example based on some preloaded data as a comparison, not as gospel, which I hope was conveyed in my post. Just another example of how load data is not universal for all similar weight boolits.

[Bonz]

And of course, 'usually', the faster the powder burns, the faster the pressure increases as you reduce case capacity.

[TurkeyHuntsman]

Petroid, thanks very much. Your simulation actually does tell us a lot, the most important being that the 238 gr. vs 230 isn't that big a deal...it is seating depth that is of greatest concern here.

I'm not the only one whom is confused about the COL of the .45 ACP. Unlike a lot of other calibers, the 230 gr LRN profiles in this caliber vary rather dramatically...single R ogives vs double R, and so on. These various profiles will have an effect on how deeply the boolit penetrates into the leade and consequently, if it is hitting the rifling or not.

When I first got these boolits, I loaded a few at the max COL given by SAAMI (1.272") and the slide wouldn't go home into full battery in my 1911. They did feed in my buddy's 1911, which indicates a difference in chamber lead length, etc etc. For these recent test loads I seated the boolit at 1.225" so that the shank was even with the case mouth, this ensures the round headspaces on the case. Hornady shows an even shorter 1.210" OAL for their 230 FMJ. Like I said, the .45 OAL is all over the place and it confuses a lot of people, not just me. A Google search turned up a LOT of internet discussions on this very topic. A rather good discussion can be found here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678

I like your idea of using a slower powder to reduce some of the risk here. The only other powder I have that is commonly used in .45 ACP is Unique. Can I trouble you to run just one more sim, please? My books show Unique from 5.0 - 5.8 grs for a 230 LRN seated at 1.260" I can switch to Unique and also try lengthening my OAL per the link above - to mitigate any possible overpressure situations.

Thanks again,
-TH

[TurkeyHuntsman]

Petroid - FYI the 238 gr boolit is 0.668" long.

-TH

[petroid]

Ok so I used the Hornady 230 LRN bullet as a baseline. Changed the length to .668" and the OAL to 1.260" which gives a seating depth of .306" and with a charge of 5.0gr Unique out of a 4" barrel, QL gives a pressure of 13kpsi and a velocity of 731fps. At 5.8gr of Unique the pressure is predicted to be 17kpsi and velocity 831fps. This sounds reasonable.
Now taking into consideration the actual boolit length of .668 and using Bullseye for a simulation, with the same OAL and seating depth at 4.5gr the pressure is 14kpsi and velocity 750fps. At 5.1gr Bullseye the pressure is 18kpsi+ and 832kpsi

[petroid]

And of course, 'usually', the faster the powder burns, the faster the pressure increases as you reduce case capacity.

Once again, an important concept. "Usually" is not the same as "Always" Just by running a few different powders in Quickload, I was seeing drastic spikes in pressure at the same charge with what should be "slower" powders. So always start low and work your way up.

To the OP, I think Unique is a good choice, quite a bit less prone to pressure spikes than faster powders, but be careful when working up loads as you seem to be doing. Like you said, the same OAL may not feed in all guns, so if you are loading for more than one gun, be sure to work up the load in each gun so you don't blow it or yourself up. I wish I had some Unique. I have been using Power Pistol which seems fine but now I'm out of that and all I could find was Titegroup and CFE Pistol. I have't used either before but you can bet I picked the slower powder (CFE Pistol) for safety reasons. I like the burn rate range around Unique and Power Pistol but it's hard to find just about anything right now, so all the more reason to be extra careful when working with unfamiliar powders. CFE Pistol is presenting a challenge just to find load data as it's so new. I have emails in to Hodgdon, Lyman, and Lee right now to try and get some info.

[Pinsnscrews]

Not related to QL

it was my understanding, when shooting Cast, if you had a weight that was not listed for a specific powder, to use the load data for the next weight UP. Since the heavier weight generally involves a larger boolit, the load would be safe for the case capacity of the weight you were using.

Is this not an accurate "general rule" .

[petroid]

Not related to QL

it was my understanding, when shooting Cast, if you had a weight that was not listed for a specific powder, to use the load data for the next weight UP. Since the heavier weight generally involves a larger boolit, the load would be safe for the case capacity of the weight you were using.

Is this not an accurate "general rule" .

this is a good "general rule" but cannot always be counted on. Sometimes bullet shape changes the case capacity more than weight for a given OAL. If you took a 200gr 30cal spitzer bullet and seated to the same OAL as a 210gr RN more of the spitzer would be in the case than the RN because it is a longer bullet. You have to consider bullet profile and length. I think this is a prime example

[Bonz]

I would just add them to my lead stash and recast them.

[TurkeyHuntsman]

Looking back over my old threads for dangling conversation. Well...that is exactly what I did with these "odd" boolits...did a remelt and used 'em for ingots!

[Pirate69]

https://www.1911forum.com/threads/winchester-wst-powder.424806/

This may help.