Round Balls in Smoothbore

[longbow]

Looking for some advice here.

I have 2 round ball moulds I would like to try out as slugs. One mould is 0.715" (casts 0.716"/0.717") and one is 0.735" (casts 0.736"/0.737").

The gun is a Browning BPS smoothbore with improved cylinder choke slug barrel. The choke measures 0.711" at the muzzle.

The 0.715" ball is approx. 0.005"/0.006" oversize for the choke as cast. Lots of clearance down the barrel but a squeeze fit in the choke.

The 0.735" ball is about 0.007"/0.008" oversize for the bore and would get sized twice so that may be pushing my luck.

Has anyone loaded a solid ball or slug 0.005"+ oversize for choke or bore?

My original plan was to drill the balls and attach a wad column to make a BPI AQ clone. The hollow ball would be able to compress easily to pass through the choke.
I wouldn't mind trying the solid balls though as long as it is safe.

I know - a rifled barrel would be more accurate and a cylinder bore would solve the choke question but I have to play with the toys I have for now. Plus I have gotten some good accuracy with AQ's and Brennekes but would like to make my own.

Any comments? Advice? Loads to share?

Thanks,
Longbow

[Ricochet]

I dunno man, I've always read that a punkin ball has to be undersized in the choke to be safe. Many shotgun barrels (including my "new" retired police Mossberg 500) are pretty thin at the muzzle. Of course, the Mossy has no choke! I have an old Dixie round ball mould of the kind cherried out of hair crimping irons, labeled .725" that I eventually want to try loading for that cylinder bore only. I'd be afraid that an oversized solid ball with a supersonic runny-go at a choke would bulge or burst it. Only trying it would prove it, I suppose, but if it doesn't work you've got a blown barrel. We routinely "choke" rifle and pistol boolits that are several thousandths oversized for the rifled bores, but they're getting swaged down in the throat where there's a lot more steel around it than the thin muzzle of a shotgun, and the swaging's being done at a much lower speed. Normal gas pressure at the muzzle of a shotgun is on the order of hundreds of PSI, not thousands.

[longbow]

I agree that you certainly don't want go shooting a bore size ball through any tight choke but this is an improved cylinder choke in a Browning factory slug barrel. The 0.715" ball is a little oversize but there isn't much meat around the perimeter so sizing is easy. However, I am reluctant to load these without some positive feedback.

BPI sells 0.715" slugs for 12 ga. and makes no comment about "Don't shoot these through any choked barrels" and again this is a slug barrel so one would figure that any commercially available slug would be safe. Having said that I sure wouldn't try shooting a 0.715" ball through a full or modified choke and BPI is leaving themselves open to that.

How about the 0.735" in a fully rifled bore - too big?

Ricochet, what no more fried, brazed, broiled or beer poached slug recipes? I'm disappointed!

Longbow

[Blammer]

I know nothing about 12 ga.... sorry, I'm no help.

[JMax]

I think you will be very disappointed with a split barrel. I always loaded a .678 round ball (a custom Lyman Mold) and could shoot it through modified chokes w/o problems. I loaded it in a WW AA wad sitting on top of 2 1/8" 20 ga nitro wads with great success. The ball cast out 1 1/16 oz out of wheel weights. The spru was always up for best accuracy.

[longbow]

Jmax:

I have loaded 0.662" and 0.690" in wads.

I will be doing some more testing with the 0.662". They are a little small for the typical trap and skeet wads but they fit not bad when wrapped and I am told there are heavy petal wads (for steel shot I think) that work well with them.

I find the 0.690" isn't accurate naked (too small) or in a wad because it is just big enough to pinch off petals in the improved cylinder choke. It should be fine in cylinder bore.

My goal was to go bore size and make AQ clones as the AQ's shoot very well from my barrel but are a little pricey to shoot for fun in any quantity. The AQ's are bore size but hollow so so they can compress, and have the attached basewad for guidance.

If there is any question about the safety of a ball 0.006" oversize for bore or choke I won't shoot them without sizing down and/or modifying like an AQ. I can easily size them to muzzle diameter or a bit smaller and attach a basewad. I just wanted to try them as is if safe.

What kind of accuracy do you get from the 0.678" balls? They would be about the perfect size for a standard wad.

Longbow

[Ricochet]

Ricochet, what no more fried, brazed, broiled or beer poached slug recipes? I'm disappointed!
How about some Indian cuisine? http://www.hallman.org/indian/slug.html

(Native American, that is.)

[longbow]

Ricochet,

You Southern boys certainly have strange habits but I guess it is all part of your charm! I can't imagine another place on the web where one can so easily obtain information on the gastronomic pleasure of cooking and consuming gastropod mollusks and nudibranchs. And not just trivial information but details on the collection, handling and cooking of said critters.

I did notice a lack of comment about beer this time - though from the fact the fellow talks to the dead sea slugs methinks he was into the brew before his trip in the canoe.

Thanks for that Ricochet, it brightened up my day. I don't know any more about loading shotguns but I have information about sea slugs I will carry to my grave!

Thanks for sharing.

[wire nut]

I am going to try .570 round ball loaded in the wad for a 20 gauge that I made as a tactical shotgun for my son. After cutting the barrell the inside diameter is .615. Measuring the petal on the wad they measure .20 thick so that would give me in the neighborhood of .610 total diameter for the wad and slug.
Anyone ever tried this, I'm trying to find a more economical way for him to shoot as the price of shot has went out the roof. Any suggestions welcome, Wire nut

[Ricochet]

Longbow, that sea slug info was from the natives of the Pacific Northwest, so maybe not too far off from where you are in B.C. Maybe the harvester had been smoking some of that B.C. Bud I read about now and then? Maybe that gave him munchies sufficient to eat sea slugs?

As for the shotguns, though I really have no use for slugs, I'm thinking of picking up a 12 ga. Lee Loader just to experiment with the balls.

[longbow]

Ricochet:

With 0.690" balls in a Win AA wad I get around 6" at 50 yards so not great accuracy (that's from smoothbore). I got about the same with some 0.662" balls which are a little safer if you have multiple shotguns and some have tight chokes.

I have had little success with the Lyman Foster slug, which I find odd as Federal Foster factory rounds shoot quite well. The best I have used so far though are the BPI AQ's. My original intent with the ball moulds was to make AQ clones - especially with the 0.735".

0.725" in a cylinder bore should shoot similar to my 0.690" balls in shotcups. I doubt you will get cloverleafs at 50 yards but you should see 3" to 6" easily. I have read several articles by BP smoothbore shooters that claim 3" groups at 75 to 100 yards with patched RB. Friends have also told me that they have been to BP shoots where the smoothbores have placed along side rifles. I would expect a smoothbore shotgun to shoot about the same - just haven't seen it yet.

I have been advised that my 0.735" ball is safe to shoot through a cylinder bore so I wouldn't mind trying that as it should be totally stable as it leaves the barrel like a patched RB.

About the sea slugs, you are right. The Kwakuitl are more or less local to my old home in Vancouver. They are from the North coast of Vancouver island. Back in those days there was no fine BC bud though, they would have been smoking kinnikinnick. It would take more than kinnikinnick to give me slug munchies.

[Ricochet]

I'd worry a little about the compressibility of the plastic "petals" of a shotcup, if the ball in the cup fit closely in a cylinder bore and then went through a choke. The ball may be smaller than the choke, but with the plastic around it probably isn't.

I doubt a breechloading shotgun will ever shoot ball as well as a muzzleloader with patched balls. The breechloader has the transition out of the hull and through the forcing cone to deal with. And a crimp to force open.

[longbow]

True enough Ricochet.

Any ball even slightly undersize could easily pick up a spin in the jump from the hull to forcing cone then down the forcing cone. I am figuring that at 0.005" to 0.006" oversize the ball would lose any spin as it hit the bore and then travel straight down the bore with no spin.

I read an article about a fellow that shoots in civil competition with smoothbore 0.69 cal. musket and for some odd reason they are not allowed to patch with cloth - aluminum foil is okay though!?! Anyway, he sizes a slightly oversize ball to make a flat perimeter that just fits his barrel and he claims good accuracy. Same idea but loaded from the opposite end.

I do tend to agree with you though, the jump and the forcing cone are definitely detrimental. A brass cartridge with the ball just about touching the bore would be good. Wait! I know what I need! A double rifle! I'll just remortgage my house. I have always wanted a double rifle or a big 'ol Paradox gun but... unfortunately I can't afford those toys.

Maybe an H&R slug gun is in my future though. Simple, effective and best of all - affordable.

[ozbornm]

No help on this one.

[Ricochet]

They didn't call that aluminum foil wrapped musket ball a jacketed bullet? :mrgreen:

[longbow]

Ricochet:

I took a look but couldn't find the specific article mentioning sizing or use of aluminum foil but though I did find one about sizing a ball to bore size and lubing it, and several references to aluminum foil being allowed in N-SSA competitions:

http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/castbullets/index.pl?noframes;read=4772
http://www.pcs.cnu.edu/~mblount/blkpwdr/wwwboard/messages/811.html
http://www.pcs.cnu.edu/~mblount/blkpwdr/wwwboard/messages/717.html

Not sure why they allow aluminum foil but I am pretty sure it wasn't available during civil war years - tin foil maybe but I doubt issued balls would be wrapped (lead balls for shooting you understand - the others would get cold if not wrapped).

Maybe those civil war smoothbore shooters were ahead of their time shooting "J" bullets!

[Ricochet]

I'm sure brass balls were endangered many nights out in the field.

[felix]

For sure, mine are frozen off, and I did not even go outside at that. ... felix

[JMax]

Longbow,
Accuracy was good enough to shoot as well as factory slugs out to 100 yards. Several of us got Lyman to cut a special diameter .678" (right between .662 & .690) to keep the wads in a whole condition when fired through a choke. Also I found that sitting the ball spru up on top of two 1/8" card board nitro wads helped accuracy. I used to shoot a side match at the Second Chance combat shoot called BCBC or Banzi Charge Bang & Clang that would suck the wallet dry very quickly. We had steel targets out to 100 yds and all was timed with all shooting off hand so accuracy was excellent but I don't have any targets left as the last match was 10 years ago. It was not unusual to shoot 300 slugs in a 5 day period, Sniff those were they days. I don't get to shoot slugs seriously any more but still have a couple hundred rounds and an equal # of balls left though. Alas the mold just sits there looking at me with a sad face as it is no longer used.

[longbow]

JMax:

Thanks for the reply.

I think you are right on with 0.678". That is about perfect for use in a shotcup.

I find that my 0.690" ball is just a bit big for use in a shotcup and pinches petals off as my slug barrel has an I/C choke that measures 0.711" (seems tight?).

I made a Foster mould with the intent of having it turn out about 0.680" to fit the shotcup but messed up while boring and it is 0.690" (doh!). I tried it and it shot without pinching petals off (thin skirt?) but accuracy was poor anyway. I will try sizing it down for more tests.

Testing continues with round balls, AQ style home made slugs and I will be modifying a Foster mould to bore size with lube grooves left.

As a side note, so far info I have found indicates that I should not be trying the 0.735" ball through the I/C choke so they will be sized to suit and guided down the bore.

My apologies if I am repeating myself.

When I have results worth posting I will.

Thanks for all the replies.

Longbow

[BAGTIC]

I have loaded .615 RB for a 20 gauge H&R singleshot. Could keep them on a sheet of binder paper out to about 110 yards.

Have loaded .735 RB (HTWW) in a rifled 12 gauge M1100. They would shoot about 2 inches at 60 yards.

[longbow]

What was the rifling twist in the M1100? How did accuracy hold up at longer ranges?

I like the big 'ol full bore ball but modern shotguns are rifled way too fast for round ball. Something around 1:90 to 1:120 is about right for round ball or short fat slug. I figure a 0.735" ball of around 580 grs. at 1400+ FPS out of a rifled barrel would be a skookum load!

I am currently working on some AQ style RB's with attached basewad. I have 0.662" for use in a shotcup, 0.715" to suit my Browning BPS with I/C choke and 0.735" for a cylinder bore - all smoothbore barrels at my house though. If I can keep 'em within 6" at 100 yards I would be a happy camper.

[kjg]

the rson n-ssa wants foil wraped balls is two fold paper patched bullets and patched round balls are ort of a fire hazzard when you have up 300 shooters on the line at one time or relay, and you just don't want to jump in front of a reb wereing blue or vise versa, ha.the foil wraped ball is completely lubed with eiather msm, spg or concocktion of bee wax,olive oil, borebutter,and the loads are extreamly accure depending if your a yankee or reb.kjg n-ssa skirmisher 24th ga

[longbow]

kjg:

I guess it goes without saying that I didn't know that. I learned something today! I looked all over the internet and didn't find that pearl of wisdom but it certainly makes sense.

Thanks.

Aslo, I guess I forgot to post back here but I did some more shooting with Brenneke style slugs, AQ style and RB's. All in all the RB's and AQ's did the best. 0.662" balls made up AQ style with attached basewad in a WWAA shotcup and 0.735" RB's on a card and fiber wad column both did about 6" at 50 yards. The Brenneke's didn't do so well but I think I know why and will be doing some more testing.

Lonbow

[tommygirlMT]

Okay, usually I'm just a lurker but I guess I'll add to this discussion. The following is a "cut & paste" from my man's files on this computer. Ignore the exact topic of the excerpt about a particular 10ga. gun --- the basic information sections entiteled "Pumkin Ball Slug Loads, single lead round ball loads:", "Mult-Ball Loads, Dixie style loads:", and "Calculating the Weight of the Balls:" outline the process by which we build our ball loads for shotguns. Some of the information was gained by direct corospondence with the owner of "Dixie Slugs" the commercial producer of the "Tri-Ball" factory rounds and quite a bit was learned by trial and error.


Cut & Paste from the files (I used the HTML "quote" command):


Turbo, was it your girlfriend who was playing with some 10ga double ball or slug loads?

I have a 10ga double I cut back to 25", just looking for a roundball load to work with. My bores are .762, but trying to find a rb mould in that size is hard to find. My next option was to pick up some steel shot wads from BP or PR, and see if a couple of rb's that fit inside, sorta like Dixies Tri-Ball load, but I don't know if 3 would fit, or what the weight would be or the size of balls needed to fit in the 10ga shotcup.

later, Al


Okay, first off I would like to appologize for not getting a reply to you in prompt fashion. I have been out of town for the last weak and havn't had a chance to check all my computer corespondence. You should have seen the backlog of e-mails I had. Mainly spam of course but never the less had to sort through them. So okay, first off I'll say that my GF is the one doing the 10ga. ball loads. For me I mainly load just steel shot for my 10ga. because that's where I find use for it --- in this area it's superior to the 12ga. However, concerning ball loads in general both single ball "pumkin ball slug loads" or multi-ball Dixie style loads I have done some pretty extensive experimentation. So I guess the best thing to do would be to outline a road map of how I do both "pumkin ball slug loads" and how I do Dixie style multi-ball loads in general terms and then directly address your specific question.

Pumkin Ball Slug Loads, single lead round ball loads:

~ Ball diameter should be no more then a thousandth of an inch bigger then the smallest diameter in the guns barrel. This is usually right at the muzzle on a choked gun. The minimum diameter for best accuracy can be calculated by the following formula: (Min. Ball Size) = (Min. Internal Barrel diameter) - (2 x (Wad Petal Thickness)) in other words when the wad is inside the barrel the ball does not rattle around inside the wad because it is too small. Normally standard wads have a petal thickness between 0.020" & 0.035" and non-toxic shot wads have a petal thickness between 0.035" & 0.050". The balls should be cast of an alloy harder then pure lead. Pure lead balls will turn into mis-shapen hunks of lead under the acceleration forces when the gun is fired. For best accuracy the ball must remain round. Minimum hardness for the balls to remain ball shaped is about 20:1 alloy and WW alloy, which is harder still, works great. Regardless of what size or alloy you make your balls you should always manually check them for safety by dropping one through the guns barrel from breach to muzzle. With a ball that is a thousandth bigger then the smallest point in the barrel slight hand pressure with a wooden dowel may be needed to get the ball to pass fully through the guns barrel. If anymore then hand pressure is required to make the ball pass through the barrel it should not be used for that gun. This may seem to be a no-brainer test but it should always be done with smooth bore guns, it's one of those "just to be absolutely sure" kind of things. With rifled guns considerably greater resistance is acceptable because the ball has to engrave the rifling.

~ Wads must be modified for pumkin ball slug loads. This is accomplished by cutting down the petals of the wad to form a shallow cup which encloses only the bottom half of the ball. I call this a "ball cup wad" for the bigger balls within the acceptable size range the cup should enclose slightly less then the bottom half of the ball. For the smaller balls within the acceptable size range the cup should enclose slightly more then the bottom half of the ball. If you want exact measurements call it 7/16 and 9/16 of the balls diameter. This arrangement of holding half the ball will give the best accuracy. It will hold the ball dead center in the barrel without allowing it to roll or bounce along the internal walls of the barrel and give a clean realease from the wad once it leaves the muzzle. Additional gas seals or various card, felt, or cork wads are used under the ball cup wad in order to acheive the correct wad column height for a good crimp.

~ Shot Buffer both under, around, and on top of the ball improves accuracy. A fully buffered ball will ride more centered in the barrel, pass through the choke without bouncing of one side of the choke, and have a smoother seperation from the ball cup wad once it leaves the barrel. For best results I recommend the use of BPI#47 buffer. This buffer unlike others is teflon based and will not pack like other buffers. Packing raises pressures in a load. The #47 buffer may still raise pressures by a very slight amount but nothing like other buffers will do. It will take a little bit of experimintation to figure out exactly how much buffer to put in both under the ball and on top of it. The best way to measure buffer is with a set of Lee dippers. What you want to do is put just enough buffer inside the ball cup wad so that when you put the ball in next it fills up all the empty space under the ball around the edges formed by the curvature of the ball. This "nests" the ball providing an even soft thrust platform and prevenst the ball cup wad from sticking to the ball and not seperating cleanly. Figure out which of the dippers dumps in the right amount of buffer to accomplish this. If the correct amount falls inbetween two dipper sizes use the larger one. Next you need just enough buffer on top of the ball to fill in around the edges and just cover the ball. Again, use the larger dipper if this amount falls inbetween two dipper sizes.

~ Powder Charge is calculated according to the combined weight of the balls, buffer, extra wad spacers, etc using equivalent shot load weights. A good deal of research has been done in this area by enterprising individuals who frequent forums like this one and the general concensous is that when you use a single slug of identical weight to a shot charge with otherwise identical components and powder charge the resulting pressure will be if anything less then the equivalent shot weight. This is due to the fact that a mass of small balls acts like a fluid under acceleration and applies pressure sideways against the internal walls of the barrel thus increasing fricition and thus the pressure of the load. The single mass slug does not do this -- thus the lower pressure. With rifled barrel guns and full bore size slugs pressure reduction is minimal do to the aditional friction from the rifling. It would be best to stick to linear burning curve powders such as those produced by Alliant but with single ball loads this is not a necessity like it is with multi-ball loads.

~ Hulls used can be whatever you prefer and what you can find equivalent shot weight data for.

~ Crimps can be either fold crimps or roll crimps provided you have properly buffered around the top of the ball. If you choose not to buffer around the top of the ball do not use a roll crimp. The reason for this is that without the buffer around the ball the over-shot card could get "over-run" by the ball thus resulting in a barrel constriction and potentially a Kabooom !!!!! I recommend sealing crimp joints with finger-nail polish to prevent leakage of the buffer during long term storage, transport, and handling, especially when rattling around in your bag on a hunting trip.

Mult-Ball Loads, Dixie style loads:

~ Ball diameter is more critical with multi-ball loads. For using balls inside a wad without an additional paper coil (more on this later) the optimal ball size for a given gun/choke/wad combination can be calculated by the following formula:

- - Ball Diameter = (Bore) - (Choke) - (2 x (Wad Petal Thickness))

Where:
- - Bore = Internal bore diameter
- - Choke = Choke constriction

Alternately if you just wish to measure the minimum internal bore diameter which is usually at the muzzle in a choked gun the formula becomes:

- - Ball Diamter = (Min. Bore Diamer) - (2 x (Wad Petal Thickness))

This is the optimum ball size for best performance, you can usually use balls that are up to 0.030" smaller then the optimum without your groups opening up too much, but if you want to use balls still smaller you will need to use a paper coil which will be explained in the wad section below. With mult-ball loads it is very important that the balls be cast of a hard alloy. A stack of soft lead balls will act together to work like a wedge in your barrel under the acceleration forces when the gun is fired. Obviously a wedge in your barrel is very bad and you could have a Kabooom !!! WW alloy is bare minimum, sorting WW to get all the stick-on weights out will give you a harder alloy which is what I recommend. Comercially sold "Hardball" alloy is slightly harder still and works great. You can go all the way up to type-metal if you wish but it's not necessary. Regardless of what size balls you use you should always manually check them for safety by placing your balls inside the wad and pushing it through the guns barrel from breach to muzzle with a wooden dowel. If anymore then hand pressure is required to make the ball pass through the barrel it should not be used for that gun, loads for rifled guns should be tight but still only take hand pressure to push through the barrel -- both hands of pressure makes for excellent accuracy loads in rifled barrels. It is also possible to make multi-ball loads with just under bore size balls loaded and buffered on top of a stack of nitro-cards without any wad-petals surrounding them.

~ Wads should by cut down for multi-ball loads so that the top of the wad petals is flush with the tippy top of the top ball. Additional gas seals or various card, felt, or cork wads are used under the ball cup wad in order to acheive the correct wad column height for a good crimp. If you are using small enough balls you may have to use a paper coil inside the wad to give a snug fit and thus tight patterns. This is accomplished by use brown craft paper which is sold at hardware stores for masking of floors when painting. It should be sold in the paint section and a single roll will last for lots and lots of loads. What you do is cut a rectagle which as wide as the cut down shot cup on the wad is deep and then of a certain length. This length is figured out via. a little old trial and error. Basically you want the length so that when the roll the rectangle up into a coil and put it inside the wad the balls fit inside the coil gently snug only requiring slight finger pressure to seat them. This allows you to use much smaller balls if so desired. Before inserting the balls into the coil you take a sharp razor blade and cut down through the exising slits in the plastic wad so that their are identical slits in the paper coil so it will flower open just like the wad does to cleanly release the balls. A slight taper on the one end of the rectangle may be advisable so that the thickness of the paper coil is less at the bottom. This will account for some steel shot wads that have petals which are thicker at the bottom then at the top. For heavily mult-ball loads it is advisable to use a dry lube on the wad. This will give you more velocity at lower pressures. I use the BPI mica based powder and my GF uses a teflon based dry lube designed for hi-tech mountain bike suspension joints. Take your pick.

~ Shot Buffer both under the first ball, inbetween the balls, and on top of the top ball will tighten the groups. Fully buffered balls will ride more centered in the barrel, smoothly pass through the choke, and have a smoother seperation from the wad and each other upon leaving the barrel. I strongly recommend the use of BPI#47 buffer and if not it then the original BPI buffer. Resistance to buffer packing and resulting pressure spikes is very important in multi-ball load. Again, the best way to measure buffer is with a set of Lee dippers. In each case for under, inbetween, and on top of the balls you want to do is put just enough buffer so that it fills up all the empty space formed by the curvature of the ball. Again, if the correct amount falls inbetween two dipper sizes use the larger one.

~ Powder Charge is calculated according to the combined weight of the balls, buffer, extra wad spacers, etc. using equivalent shot load weights. Stick to slow burning linear pressur curve powders such as those produced by Alliant but with multi-ball loads is very strongly recommended. For the 10ga. and 12ga. that effectively means "Blue Dot" and "Steel" for progressively smaller guages you start looking at "410", "2400", and "Reloader-7". At first glance those may seem like way too slow powders but with multi-ball loads they work.

~ Hulls used can be whatever you prefer but hulls with large internal capacity make loading simpler. In the 10ga. my GF swears by the Fed. paper base wad hulls claiming they give more velocity at the same pressure or the same velocity at lower pressures for almost any side by side load comparison with different hulls and otherwise identical components. You can evaluate the validity of that claim for yourself.

~ Crimps can be either fold crimps or roll crimps. Often roll crimps will give you more room inside the hull for components. So long as the top of the wad petals is flush with the tippy top of the top ball there is no worries about an over shot card getting over-run like when using an unbuffered ball in a "ball cup wad". I recommend sealing crimp joints with finger-nail polish to prevent leakage of the buffer during long term storage, transport, and handling, especially when rattling around in your bag on a hunting trip.

Calculating the Weight of the Balls:

This requires some high-school level math skills, obviously you could just weigh the balls if you have a reloading scale that reads up to a 1,000 grains or so or up to about 2+ ounces. Anyway here is the formula:

- - Ball Weight = (Density) x (4/3) x (pi) x (r)^3

Where:
- - Ball Weight is output in grains
- - Density is in grains per cubic inch which for WW or "Hardball" lead alloy aprox. = 2700
- - pi = 3.14159
- - r = the radius of the ball in inches which is equal to half the diamter
- - "x" stands for multiplication
- - "^3" means to the third power or multiplying something by itself three times. You could substitute "(r) x (r) x (r)" for "(r)^3"
- - A calculator makes things far less tedious although it is entirely possible to do the math by hand.

So now you have weight of the individual ball(s) in grains and you can weight the buffer, extra wad spacers, etc. with your reloading scale and add it all up to get the equivalent shot load weight in grains. However, you need this to be in oz. not gr. So first off 1oz. = 437.5gr. so subtract out as many full ounces as you can. Then you take the remaining grains and devide them by 27.34375gr. which is equal to 1/16oz. to get your equivalent shot weight in oz. For example lets say you make up a double ball load for your 10ga. where the combined weight of the two balls, the buffer, and the extra spacers in the wad column add up to be 955gr. So first off we subtract off two full oz. and have a remainder of 80gr. we then devide this by 27.34375gr. to get aprox. 3 which means the remainder is 3/16oz. meaning your load is a 2-3/16oz. load. You then load this using 2-1/4oz. shot load data because this is the closest load data you have. Now oviously putting in slightly less weight is fine but putting in slightly more weight might not be so fine.

Your 10ga. Specifically:

So okay, your gun has been cut down which means it shouldn't have any choke and what you are measuring at the muzzle is the true bore diameter. The standard bore for a 10ga. is 0.775" and your bore is 0.762" this means your gun is "tight" or an "underbore". That's fine but you will need to size the balls to your wad/bore combination. So doing the math if your use steel shot wads with a petal thickness of 0.035" then 0.690" balls should work nicely for a double ball load and if you use steel shot wads with a petal thickness of 0.050" then 0.662" balls should work nicely. For single ball loads those would be minimum ball sizes with bore size balls being your maximum. It is possible to load a triple ball load using the 0.662" balls but this will give you a load that is just under 3oz. -- obviously special load data is necessary for that, and even then load development gets kind of hairy.

So with all of that in mind I would like to plainly state that I am in no way some God like authority but a common man who is just trying to share what he has learned from personal experience. None of this could even be safe or sane. I am in no way responsible if you blow yourself up !!!! And as I previously posted:



Since you have previously stated that you intend to "tinker", mentioning a few boundaries seems prudent: . . . . . There is two types of "tinkers" without professional testing equipment. The ones who take an old gun and put it inside some old tires with sand bags packed around it and then pull a string from behind the engine block of their old beat up truck and those that put the gun to their should, manuver their head in directly above and behind the action, and then holler "Watch This !!!" These two types are also know as "the living" and "the dead" when the tinkering goes south.

So okay, that's how it goes. He does a much better job of explaining things in a step by step logical manner then I do. I could have went into the "cut & paste" section and actually cut out the non-relevant info but just simply cutting and pasting is much easier. Possibly some info there if your interested.

[BAGTIC]

What was the rifling twist in the M1100? How did accuracy hold up at longer ranges?

I like the big 'ol full bore ball but modern shotguns are rifled way too fast for round ball. Something around 1:90 to 1:120 is about right for round ball or short fat slug. I figure a 0.735" ball of around 580 grs. at 1400+ FPS out of a rifled barrel would be a skookum load!

I am currently working on some AQ style RB's with attached basewad. I have 0.662" for use in a shotcup, 0.715" to suit my Browning BPS with I/C choke and 0.735" for a cylinder bore - all smoothbore barrels at my house though. If I can keep 'em within 6" at 100 yards I would be a happy camper.

I had the barrel done nearly 30 years ago before factory rifled barrels were common. IIRC it was 1:36. A .735 ball cast of WW weighs 600 grains. Accuracy was about 6 inches at 100 yards. I never loaded them to 1400 fps. I stopped at 1200 fps. They fed and cycled very consistently and the recoil off a bench was rather pleasant.

I used to entertain a friend by taking a firing position, having him observe where the case landed and place a 5 gallon paint bucket there. I would then fire the next nine rounds (mag extension) and watch the empties land in the bucket.

I never devoted much development to accuracy especially at long range. My interest was relaibility as the gun was intended as a home defense gun.

[longbow]

To be honest I would have thought that 1:36" would be way too fast for RB.

Being an old black powder round ball shooter I am used to slow twists with RB's - not to say that decent accuracy can't be had by faster twists but generally RB twists are slow. Also, as far I know the old Paradox guns shooting short fat slugs used quite slow twists.

I have a friend who says he has an old article with loads for 0.662" RB in heavy petal shotcup giving 2" accuracy at 100 yards out of a rifled barrel. I'm sure the twist was much faster than a typical RB twist for muzzleloader.

Like I said in the other post though - I am in learning mode.

[Dixie Slugs]

Very interesting indeed! Now....roundalls in a smoothbore barrel. The best combo is a cylinder barrel with hard cast heat treated round ball...it exact size of the bore.
Before choke came into effest....this was a real killer load and was quite acurate. It was liked due to the fact the less friction in the barrel....rather high velocity was attained. It is still a powerful load for brush hunting!
Round balls in a rifled barrel.....two things are very important! The twist for a
.730" round ball is one turn in 109". The ball should be about .003" larger that the grove diameter. Since the rifling engages the radius of the ball, .003: is about right. The problem with fast twist in the barrel....or in a rifled choke tube....is the radius of the ball strips.
The round ball consists of a "squared" projectile.....as did the Paradox bullet....meaning the diameter equals the lenght. Our Dixie Terminator is.730" X .735" and weighs 730 grs.....which matches the original Paradox bullet. It also has 1/3 of a releif grove to reduce friction. It is designed for Hasting barrels that atre .727" in the groves. Greener later came out with a 600 gr bullet for fully rifled barrels. We have a load coming that is .727"-605 gr at close to 1700'/".
Now....back to round balls. If you decide to uae them in choked barrels....mike the choke and use a pure lead ball that size. Or....have Mike Orlen cur you a Colonial choke tube that the flat forward paralell (sp) part is ball diameter. Then you can use hard cast.
Regards, James

[longbow]

James:

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I don't have rifled barrel and my current budget isn't going to allow one at lest for a while. Also, rifled shotguns are a bit of a rarity in my neck of the woods as there is no restriction on rifles for hunting except in a few very small areas. I would have to check but I think they are archery or shotgun with buckshot only.

However, as luck would have it, recently I found out that a friend picked up a used rifled shotgun and I will be loading up some 0.735" round balls to try in that. I have tried them in my smoothbore cylinder bore gun (I wouldn't hazard one through any form of choke constriction) and they shot fairly well though I was not getting a very good powder burn using Blue Dot with nitro card wads and fiber wad. I will add a plastic gas seal and try again. In any case they did shoot reasonably well. They are a little oversize but of course the small band of contact swages down pretty easy unlike a full length cylindrical slug. These were ACWW balls. I will be shooting more of these through the smoothbore too.

If I ever get the time I plan to try to make a rifling jig to rifle a choke tube with a round ball twist around 1:100" to make a modern type Paradox gun for full bore round ball loads. I will have to machine the choke tube from scratch to get appropriate diameter to match groove diameter to the existing shotgun bore diameter and allow fairly high lands to bite into the ball. Should be interesting if I ever get around to it.

Longbow

[Dixie Slugs]

First of all, I think you will be very disappointed in trying round balls in the fast twist of rifled barrels.....everybody has been so far. You should take into consideration that most rifled barrels are .717" on the lands and .727" in the grooves.
As for burning powder burning rate for round balls....Alliant Blue Dot is not a good choice. Blue Dot needs more resistance/weight to burn well, than the round ball gives.
However, Herco might work well, even if it does burn somewhat dirty....That's ash left in the barrel, not unburned powder and it sweeps out with each shot.
Now....Choke tubes! The best we have found for trying different designs is the Colonial Blank Tube. It is an extended tube that has a taper that begins at .740" in the skirt. It then can be rifled with whatever land/groove diameter and twist you desire. I see no reason not to copy the original Paradox design with a groove diameter of .730" and a land diameter based on what you chose.
Greenhill says for a square ball/bullet that a twist of one turn in 109" will give stabilization. I would settle for a one turn in 100" or wharever your rifling setup will give close to that. Then.....you can use a hard cast heat treated slug/buller or hard cast heat treated ball. Velocity of the ball can be higher due to less sidewall pressure....but with a different powder. With a .730"-730 gr sliug bullet......you can reached 1400'/" with Blue Dot well within allowable pressure in both the 12 ga 2 3/4" and 12 ga 3" chamber. Due to excessive recoil, you will find the most balanced load to be at what the Brits found at 1200'/". The Dixie Teminator moves at 1255'/" from a 20" Rifled Hastings barrel.
All in All....Cast bullets in rifled barrels is a growing interest...and not just in Shotgun Only states. Here at Cast Boolits is the obvious place for that interest to be generated.
Regards, James

[longbow]

More good stuff James. I didn't know that Colonial made blank tubes. If I get around to that project, using a blank tube would save a lot of time and trouble. Thanks for the info.

I kind of figured the twist would be pretty fast and don't plan on trying high velocity loads - maybe something in the 1200 FPS range or even slower to try to avoid stripping the ball in the rifling. I also have some slugs Greg sent me that I'd like to try in this gun too. The gun is a pump with open sights and rifled barrel but I can't for the life of me remember whether it is Winchester or Remington - but it is one of the two. Not sure of the twist rate but likely pretty quick.

I'll get another powder for the balls but the heavier slugs of 600 grs/ and up should work with Blue Dot shouldn't they? I have slugs up to about 800 grs. to try.

If I ever do get a rifled gun/barrel I'll order some of your Terminators to try them out. From what I've seen they are pretty impressive.

Thanks for the info, much appreciated.

Longbow

[Dixie Slugs]

Ralph has been testing various choke constrictions with our Tri-Ball loads...and came up with a .675" as giving the tighest uniforn patterns. Mile Orlen does all our barrel work and is now making custom tibes from the extended Colonial blanks. He sets the tube up and bores the constriction you want. This make a design like Becker use years ago that shot waterfowl shot so well.......first there is the taper from the shotguns bore to a parallel portion at the final constiction. I have him make me a .675" constriction and it is an excellent choke tube. I have afriend out in Azizora that is also working on a rifled choke to that matches the original Paradox design. If it works, this will give the smoothbore shooters a heavy slug/bullet.
Just some thoughts, James

[longbow]

I will be very interested in finding out how those rifled choke tubes work. My guess is that a slow twist with appropriate rifling will work very much like the old Paradox guns for round balls or sguare slugs.

I hope this all works out. Any idea when there may be some range results?

Longbow

[Dixie Slugs]

Richard Rhodes out in Arizona has been working on the project using th eextended Colonial blanks., but I have not heard from him lately??????? I did design a 12 ga 2 3/4" load for him with the Terminator bullet in it called tha Dixie Viper. We tested the fast twist rifled choke tubes and it was a mess for the start to the finish. When our hard Termiantor hit that fast twist choke, it torqued it so tight in the barrel that Mike Orlen had to remove it.
Consider the fact that in the original, the slug/bullet hit the rifling part at 1200'/" (the smokeless Cordite load.) and the twist had to be very slow.
Regards, James

[Tracy]

I have a Lyman .735 RB mould, and I have fired them cast of WW metal in a couple of different cylinder bore guns. I was considering buying the .715, but a conversation with Jim Taylor convinced me to go with the .735. Jim also gave me a load of way more Unique than I would have tried otherwise, but he had been using the load for years in a gun almost identical to mine, so I tried it. It worked fine, and easily shot into minute of deer at 100 yards.

[longbow]

Tracy:

One of the reasons I am interested in the RB is that many smootbore muzzleloader shooters claim better accuracy with a patched round ball than many smoothbore slug shooters claim with Fosters or other slugs. I figured an RB either a little over bore size or one that is a tight fit in a shotcup should give comaparable accuracy to patched round ball.

I've shot several different sizes of slugs and RB's from 0.662" to 0.735" and so far if it isn't a tight fit in the barrel the accuracy just isn't there. 0.662" in a shotcup worked reasonably well and 0.735" worked fairly well. I will be loading some more 0.735" balls for sure. I find the full size 12 ga. ball very appealing. Can't say why for sure, I just do.

SluggerDoug has a good post on Foster accuracy and again he wound up making the slug tight to the bore.

[Dixie Slugs]

The answer is simple.....Many of the Brit hunters of large game stayed with very hard roundballs in choke-less barrels long after other systems came to the market. A hard round ball in a fitted barrel developed by far more velocity for the pressure involed. Greener wrote up some very interesting data on this. Frank Forrester wrote some interesting thoughts on a 60 caliber rifle in 1838.
We tend to overlook a proper fitting round ball in shotgun smoothbores!
Regards, James