25-35 Winchester Frustration

[264 Win Mag]

I have a Winchester Model 94 AE in 25-35 Winchester and let me say it has been the most frustrating rifle I own! With a scope this thing still shoots four to five inch groups at 100 yards. Now I freely admit I am not the best of shots, but I am not as bad as four to five inches with a scope. This rifle has frustrated me so much it is my 2014 news year’s resolution. The first six months of this year have not seen a resolution to this problem.

I have loaded and shot a variety of bullets and as of last Friday group size with the 117gr Hornady was 4.925”. Group size with the NEI #23 was 4.560”. Today I have been doing some research before I take my next step and learned I have been running the cast boolits way too fast due to the fact the rifle has a 1:8 twist rate and they need to be kept at or below 1600 FPS. Also learned that some people were having good accuracy using fast burning pistol powders to achieve 1600. This intrigued me so much I thought I would seek counsel from this esteemed group.
Anybody out there have any experience with loading the 25-35 Win with Hodgdon pistol powders? Of the ones I have H4227 was mentioned. If you have a sure fire load using Hogdon's medium burning rifle powders I have several of those on hand also. I have Quickload but would like to hear some first hand experience. Thanks,

Thomas

[Kansas Ed]

I have a 25-35 I had enormous amounts of trouble with. The final solution was to add a cannelure to the 117 gr. Nosler BT and trim the point flat. IMR 4064 and it was about 1" groups at 50. Hornady bullets are pathetic for this caliber. I have a couple of gas check bullets which still need testing tho.

Ed

[Piedmont]

I have no experience with this cartridge but suggest you try another jacketed bullet or two with two or three powders. What we are looking to find out is do we have a problem rifle or not. No need to be worrying about the twist messing up your cast loads at this stage. Find out if you can make the rifle shoot any jacketed bullet and if you can't we need to look at things like that magazine tube and it's spring torqueing the barrel.

You also might have a bad scope or loose mount.

[264 Win Mag]

I am glad to hear I am not the only one struggling with this caliber. I have checked the scope and mounts as that was my first thought when this rifle started impersonating a shotgun. The new scope, mount, and rings did no better on the rifle but the old scope and rings are doing great on my Marlin Model 375. Still thinking of backing off the 80 grain Ranch Dog boolit and the NEI #23 to 1600 with H4227 and seeing what I come up with.

Thomas

[doc1876]

I have Grand dads .25-35, and never could hit anything with it. I just take it out for some joy. The sad thing is that the 25 is a much flatter shooting bullet than the .30, so I would think it would do something. My son did pretty good with it this past week, but I think that maybe the boar is jacked. I do use the same bullet that you have, and have used it for over 30 years, as that cartridge is not produced often, I really don't shoot it, I just get something else out.
Now that I am set up for reloading this caliber, I was also thinking of slowing it down. If this works for you, let us know. Even if I get anything reloaded, here in the natzi state, it takes me a while to get to a place to shoot. I know this is not any help, other than, nope I can't hit with it either!!

[Kansas Ed]

107868

107869

What I was talking about before. About a 50 yards shot. Quartering away. Ran about 10 yards...maybe 20.

[square butte]

NOE has a group buy going for a copy of the hard to come by Lyman/Ideal 257-325. It's being run in both Round and Flat nose profiles - 116 and 113 grains respectively. You can find it over in the Active Group Buy forum under NOE Group Buy Links - listed as 260-113 RN. Should be great in 25-35 wcf or 25 Rem.

[264 Win Mag]

I checked out the NOE group buy, very interesting. My problem is will it shoot? With the trouble I have had so far I hate to put down money for a mold and it not shoot in my rifle. I think I am going to load up some of the NEI #23's with H4227 to 1600 and see what that does. If it works I just might be #3 for the 116gr NOE.

Thomas

[fouronesix]

I had an original 94 in 25-35 for several years (DOM 1918). It was in rifle config. with full length mag. It had an excellent bore. I just looked in my load log and found nothing to indicate anything squirrely about the cartridge. It shot the 117 gr Hornady round nose J bullet extremely well when loaded with about 22 gr of Varget. My notes indicate a fairly short throat. With the original open sights the average 50 yard groups were clusters of 1" or less and the 100 yard groups were commensurate with the loss of sight picture resolution of about 3". I never tried cast bullets in the rifle. But all indications were that both the cartridge and rifle were capable of fine accuracy.

[EDG]

Get a tight fitting sinker or cast bullet and push it all the way through the bore from the breech to the muzzle.
Check for any tight or loose spots. Tight spots may show up at the dove tail cut.

[264 Win Mag]

Fouronesix, what was the twist rate on your Model 94? According to Quickload your load of 22 grains of Varget should be moving in the neighborhood of 1900 fps.

Thomas

[fouronesix]

Mine had 8" twist which I think was standard for the 25-35 throughout the Winchester production of the M94.

Also, Mike Venturino reported very good accuracy results when testing 25-35 M94s for his book, Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West. The book has some info on both jacketed and cast bullet loads/results in the 35-35.

[264 Win Mag]

Halleluiah, there is hope after all. I had a very interesting day at the range and it yielded some diverse and positive results with several different bullets and boolits.
First I shot the Ranch Dog 80 grain boolit loaded with 12.0 grains of H4227. Quickload estimates velocity of 1571 fps and the 3 shot group size was 1.575” at 50 yards. Next I substituted 27.0 grains of H4895 for H4227 and the estimated velocity is 2478 fps. Group size increased to a whopping 9.550”, I had to use a tape measure it was so big.
Next I shot the 123 grain NEI #23. Load was 13 grains of H4227 and 50 yard group was 1.605”. Necks were pretty sooty and Quickload says this load should be doing 1615 fps so I plan to retest this at 100 yards with one more grain of powder.
Last but not least was the load that confounded me. After slowing down the boolits to the neighborhood of 1500 to 1600 fps, and them showing an improvement in group size this last group with the Hornady 117 grain RN was a surprise. Load was 22 grains of H335 and group size at 50 yards was 1.695". Quickload says this load should be doing 2015 fps. I am going to re-shoot this at 100 yards after slowing it down to about 1900 fps. I am hoping I can tighten this load up so it will be 1.1/2” to 2” at 100 yards.

Thomas

[JHeath]

Find out if you can make the rifle shoot any jacketed bullet and if you can't we need to look at things like that magazine tube and it's spring torqueing the barrel.
.

Might it be easier to do it in the opposite order? I mean remove the mag tube and forearm, and rest the front of the receiver on the sandbags to test loads. If it can shoot well with the mag tube and forearm removed, you know to focus on mechanics. Just a thought -- I'm no lever expert but I hope to become one, which is why I'm following this thread.

[264 Win Mag]

NOE has a group buy going for a copy of the hard to come by Lyman/Ideal 257-325. It's being run in both Round and Flat nose profiles - 116 and 113 grains respectively. You can find it over in the Active Group Buy forum under NOE Group Buy Links - listed as 260-113 RN. Should be great in 25-35 wcf or 25 Rem.

Put my name on the want list for the round nose. I think I am number eight, so seven more are needed to get that buy ran. I plan on casting my own boolits this winter so I hope I have this mold on the shelf when the time comes.

Thomas

[salvadore]

One of the gun rags had an article about the 25/35 in a recent 94 win. Reloader, Rifle, or maybe Guns in the last 3 or 4 months.

[264 Win Mag]

I have Handloader and Rifle and don't remember anything recently but if someone can point me in the right direction I will take a look at it.

Thomas

[Good Cheer]

Couldn't get NEI #23 to stop yawing. Don't know why. :?
Now I need to get around to working up the 257-325.
I really want to paper patch for the '94 but don't have the stuff to do it yet.
Need to pound a chamber casting too for the samples box.

[OverMax]

Have a 25-35 1894 winny. Been using Hornady J-117 rd nose. Dual purpose bullt for me (25-06 also.) Still shooting up and from a box of shells I made in 1999 after some recipe experimentation. Haven't a clue what I used for the 25-35's powder or charge weight. Never wrote it down. But they do well in my rifle. Otherwise I would have imediatly pull there bullets if they were in-accurate. 1894 is a safe queen here so it hardly ever leaves that environment. So its seldom shot. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

[264 Win Mag]

NOE has changed to needing 10 orders to get a mold ran and I believe the last order list update shows we only need one more order to get that one going. I think I can do some good with this boolit and H4227. I also plan on trying fouronesix's Varget load since I have an ample supply of the Hornady 117gr bullets too.

Thomas

[pietro]

.

I would respectfully suggest that anyone having accuracy issues with a relatively-new/unworn levergun may be looking in the wrong place(s) for poor accuracy.

IME, leverguns with two-piece stocks should not be shot/benched in the same way that a bolt-action or other rifle with a one-piece stock usually is.

Instead, I have consistantly gotten (in over 40 years) better accuracy, when shooting rifles with a two-piece stock, via ensuring that NO portion of the gun come into direct contact with either the front/rear rest, or the benchtop.

I do that by:

1) Grasping the forend tightly in my forward hand, with only that hand in contact with the front rest - while also holding the forend "down", and pulling it straight back into my shoulder.

2) Grasping the wrist of the buttstock tightly in the trigger hand while that hand is also applying rearward force, against the inside/rear face of the lever, to also pull it back straight into my shoulder.

3) Checking that no portion of the buttstock/buttplate/buttpad bottom tip touches the rear rest or the benchtop.


.

[264 Win Mag]

Interesting Pietro. The last recommendation I had for shooting leverguns from the bench was to rest the rifle just ahead of the action. This has proved to work well for me with all of my leverguns except the 25-35 Win. I will most certainly try your suggestion and see if it helps though. Thanks.

Thomas

[MT Chambers]

My '94 in .25/35 was among the last ones made and I couldn't get it to shoot cast at all so out it went, I wrote it off to the twist being too fast and the bullet would "skid" when it hit the rifling, but I have no proof of that, I tried 80 grain boolits and up to 120grain but no luck.