45LC Handi rifle load

[DeanWinchester]

My Handi rifle Classic carbine in .45 Long Colt is looking good so far.
I did some fiddlin'. Here's what's goin' on. Using a once fired Hornady .454 Casull case, I gently pressed it in the till it bottomed out, used a depth mic and took a reading. Trimmed the case .005 more than that reading for a finished length of 1.305. That's a lot longer than ANY .45 colt case. I need that extra length though, so this is good.
Using an NEI 455g flat point gas check boolit, I came up with an OAL of 1.854. The action will shut on that, engrave the boolit into the rifling and still extract with ZERO issues. I did this several times. It does engrave a little on the heavy side but it pulls right out with no tug. I did NOT crimp the case but I saw NO change in OAL so I'm callin' it good.
That OAL gives me a seating depth of .580 which leaves room for exactly 6.5g of Trail Boss with no compression.
Should I even use a crimp, this being a single shot? I know it would change the pressures, but as heavy as it engraves I don't really see a need.
What's yall's take on that???

[Mr Peabody]

I'd set my seating die to remove the flare but not crimp.

[Ben]

Ditto.

I've heard that a few loads are more accurate with a crimp.
But, my loading history with single shots is exclusively done with zero crimp. I have 5 Ruger # 1's. No crimp seems to work well with them.

I do set my seating die to remove the " bell " from the flare I put onto the case to ease the seating of the cast bullet. I like to take a set of calipers and adjust them to the outside of the neck of the case with the bullet seated, continue turning down the die body in trial and error removing the " bell " until the calipers will slide off the end of the case neck, lock the nut down and begin seating your bullets.

I don't call that a crimp, as said earlier ....that is just removing the flare you've put on the case mouth. You'll need ALL your cases trimmed to EXACTLY the same length for this to work well.

Ben

[roverboy]

I'd think that it should be just fine in a single shot. A NEI 455 gr. boolit is HEAVY.

[DeanWinchester]

I was tinkering some more this morning and it just seems silly on my part going this route, so let me get some opinions on this idea.

The chamber is overly long, no getting out of it. Why bother trying to make custom brass and fiddling with boolits that I can't get data for and probably won't jive wight the twist rate? I can rent a .454 Casull floating pilot reamer from Elk Ridge for $40, take it to a standard Casull chamber and run standard brass. It would still be perfectly safe to run .45 Colt loads in a pinch. I would NOT relabel the barrel designation in case I ever sell it. That way, some fool wouldn't be running hot rod loaded Casull in the rifle and any one smart enough to figure out that the chamber is long should (in theory) have enough sense not to drive the heck out of it.

I could use reduced Casull data and find a boolit that fits the new throat/lead without having to fiddle so much. Considering the trouble of trimming brass to a custom length, it would be $40 well spent. I could even go so far as to buy a Lee trim gauge, which is my preferred trim method and then ream the chamber to match that length (+ a few thousandths) and come out with a much more standardized set up.

I would think I could even shoot factory Casull ammo if I were inclined to. (Yeah, no thanks)
The SB-2 actions chambered in .270 Winchester which runs about 65K psi which is where the Casull runs. God knows I'll never go nosing around up there in those loads. I actually want to ENJOY shooting this little rifle. LOL!

[Nrut]

Just out of curiosity what size are you sizing the NEI 455gr bullet to?

I have been working with my .45 Colt Low Wall using a NEI 350gr (376gr lubed and gc'ed) bullet and am finding that a fired case will take that bullet sized at .456"..


Earlier this morning got to thinking about getting a H&R in .45 colt as it is DT for a scope I believe..
Is your H&R D&T?
Don't want to DT my Low Wall..

Idea is to shot at BP vel. (1200-1300fps) or subsonic with that NEI bullet..
Ordered a Smith ladder site for the LW and Buff Classic in 45-70 yesterday..

This is going to be fun!
Quiet and deadly in the thick stuff for deer up to moose..

Edit:
Just did a search on the H&R .45 Colt Carbine and found that they have been out of production since 2008..
Bummer!

[Ben]

DeanWinchester (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?16698-DeanWinchester)

Sounds to me like you're onto a very good strategy.

I had and SB 1 in 357 Mag. Using a 357 Max reamer on mine wasn't a safe option since it was an SB 1.

The rifling was 1/4 mile from the end of the case mouth.
I tried this and that.....with very little success with cast bullet styles and weights. I took the rifle to a gun show and it found a new home.

Best decision that I could have made with that particular rifle, at that point in time.

Oh, by the way.......... I think your shoulder will give out well before the SB-2 does.

Ben

[DeanWinchester]

I'm sizing the NEI boolit down to .454 and it fits everything pretty well. No major swelling of the case, although you can see a faint outline of the boolit base.
I'd like to try a lighter boolit. Lee makes a plain base 340g boolit that would work better I think.


And yeah yeah it's drilled for a scope base. Mine wears a rear peep and a globe front.

[Nrut]

The Lyman 340 gr. Gould HP would be great for deer also..
A friend's young son killed a cow moose using the Gould out of a beautiful home made FB 45-70 at about 1350fps..
I casted the bullets for him 50/50 annealed and he still had complete penetration..

[Catshooter]

Dean,

NEF chambers the SB 2 action for the .500 S&W. Nothing sane that you can do in a Casull will bother one.

Now your shoulder . . . :)


Cat

[DeanWinchester]

Well, it's pretty much a done deal now. I just rented a reamer from Elk Ridge. In a few days time, I will have a Classic Carbine chambered in .454 Casull.


Any of y'all ever use Elk Ridge? I never rented a reamer so I'll be nervous as a ***** in church using it. Goodsteel put me on to them so I figure they must be alright if he uses them.
Im going to do this nice and easy by hand. They really ain't much to take out anyway. I've got some OLD Tap Majic I've saved for special occasions. This is back when they used 1,1,1 TCE and it works wonderfully.

This should be an interesting little beast when finished. Knowing now that others have made theirs into .460 S&W with no problems, I may have to torque the Casull up a little bit for fun.

[MBTcustom]

The only thing you need to know about using a rented chamber reamer is that you must go slow, clear the chips often, and never ever turn it backwards. I prefer to use Elk ridge when I need to rent because they use PTG reamers exclusively, and all my house reamers are made by PTG.

I have used Tap Magic as a lubricant for the very final cut only (Dark cutting oil up to that point) and it certainly seemed to work perfectly and gave me a lot of "feel" for the cut. I would think that for you're situation it would work perfectly.

You're project is going to be a real walk in the park. Just run it in there till you kiss the face of the rim bore with the new reamer and you're there. Should be a 15 minute operation.

[DeanWinchester]

You're project is going to be a real walk in the park. Just run it in there till you kiss the face of the rim bore with the new reamer and you're there. Should be a 15 minute operation.


Yeah, I have some blue Dykem Im going to put on the chamber rim and ease in there till I touch it.

[John Boy]

What's yall's take on that???
Dean, IMO you are making a mountain out of a mole ... the Handi is chambered for the 45 Long Colt. So just buy some 45LC brass and the Ideal 454190 (265gr) bullets. Accurate Molds has the 454190 mold. Or you can buy the Magnus 300gr 454 Casull bullets and load them in the 45 Colt cases ... I do and they work perfectly
Load them with the proper smokeless and go hunting or target shooting

[DeanWinchester]

I got all kinds of (45 colt) brass. I even got 100pcs of virgin starline with the rifle. It's just very hard to reach the rifling. Good things happen when you lightly engrave the rifling on a cast boolit that fits the throat of your rifle. If I've learned nothing else in my years here at Castboolits, I have learned that.

[John Boy]

Good things happen when you lightly engrave the rifling on a cast boolit that fits the throat of your rifle. If I've learned nothing else in my years here at Castboolits, I have learned that.Well Dean, in my decades of shooting multiple disciplines, proof is in the eating so goes the old axiom!
Your looking at 2 steel rams at 500 meters that were consecutively toppled with a 45 Colt Uberti '60 using 454 diameter Magnus 300gr bullets in 45LC cases. There are 5 silhouettes to a bank, 2 in a row in the picture - 1 missed and 2 more in a row that went down using a stock ladder receiver sight on the rifle !

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ridgeway%20Oct%202007/PDRM2906.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Meadowmucker/media/Ridgeway%20Oct%202007/PDRM2906.jpg.html)

So there is something new you learned on this forum - a 45 Colt Handi with 45LC cases and 454 diameter 300gr Magnus bullets and a good set of eyes ... Don't Need to Have the Ogive Engraved in the Leading Bore Cuts to Shoot Accurately. But I suppose if you want an engraved ogive - you can just seat the bullet out past the crimp groove. But be sure you have a hard crimp. Otherwise when the round is chambered, the bullet will be down near the primer hole :groner:

If you can match 500m or do better shooting long distance with your Rube Goldberg 454 Casull brass in a 45LC chamber with iron sights - post the picture in a PM & send it to me

And let me help you with your knowledge of firearms: revolver cylinders have "throats" - rifles don't. They have chambers and "leades"! Another something new you learned on the forum. Okie Dookie?

[DeanWinchester]

Woohoo! Mold came in today. Needs a bit of Lee-menting but I believe it's gonna be a dandy.
Plain base 340g .457 I will have to size back to .454 and lube with good ole Bens Red.

http://leeprecision.com/mold-dc-457-340-f.html


Almost wish it was a gas check. I have a few pounds of Lil'Gun I don't plan on using. Hodgdons data shows a load for 335g lead boolit running 1400-1500fps. Be a little more than that in a rifle barrel. YOUSA! That'd be a hellcat!

[jmort]

The .357 Handi Rifles with the "long" SAAMI spec chamber shoot well with .38 special, at least the SB2, surprised by Ben's bad experience. There was an interesting article in Handloader where the author compared bullets seated out, "engaged,"assumed to be best practice, to bullet seated "normal" and the results were not as one would assume. Conclusion, experiment and see what works. You might be surprised. What John said, the other John, in post #16.

[DeanWinchester]

This little turd is quite the conundrum.
Took it out today for the first time. Shooting 20.0g of Lil'Gun in CBC cases with a 340g plain base sized .454 lubed with Bens Red.


It's not abusive but .454 Casull(yes, I went ahead and reamed it to .454 casull) in this little package with a steel buttplate packs a nice wallop.
Bench rested properly with support on the receiver and rear stock only, it made shotgun patterns. About 7 inches at 50 yards. I decided to burn the rest of the ammo by shooting offhand at 50 yards at clay targets. Hit every single one. Umm, okay. Put it back on the bench careful not to put pressure on the barrel and doing everything the same way, each time. All over the place. Shot the last few rounds offhand at 25 and 50 yards......dead on. Strange but I don't care, this is a fun gun to shoot.


Im going to have to back off the of a little as I was getting a little bit of leading half way down the bore. Not much, most came out on a dry patch. The blue bruise on my shoulder says I should back off a touch too, or wear something besides a tshirt. Lol!

[C. Latch]

You should have shot the last few with some pressure on the forearm. Would have been fun to see how they grouped that way, if they seemed to group well from offhand.

[fcvan]

I bought an H&R Classic Carbine in 45 Colt a few years back and LOVE it. I've ran loads from mild to wild, starting with .454 RB loads at 900 fps, up to shoulder bruisers with the Lee C452-300 RF. The crescent steel but plate is very efficient at transfering recoil to the shoulder with minimal loss. It shoots very well with the 452-255 RF. I liked loading for the 45 Colt rifle that I just had to find a Ruger Vaquero (old model) in 45 Colt to go with it. The rifle is my 'Long Colt' and the Ruger is my 'Short Colt.'

When loading the 255 in the 4 5/8" Vaquero to 1200 fps, I get closer to 1500 fps from the 20" carbine. I've not benched the rifle, mostly just off-hand shooting. I will have to see if changing the forend pressure effects the grouping. This thread has me wanting to hit the hills again soon just to play with those two again

[DeanWinchester]

Well, I ran into a small issue think morning while tinkering. Evidently the Colt is a bit bigger than the Casull case; Diameter wise. I could visually see what had been run through the sizer die. Now, i know very little about straight wall rifle cartridges BUT, seems to me, I could just run the brass in the sizing die just as much as I need for boolit retention. Fired brass chambers and extracts smoothly and they'll never see a different gun. Seems to me I would be better off not full length resizing these cases. About the first 1/3 is all that I need to hold the boolit in place. Seems like leaving the rest of the case alone would help hold the case centered in the chamber and keep the soot down on lower pressure loads.
I full length sized one piece and noticed it needed trimming but the couple I only sized 1/3 of did not need trimming. Unless there's something I'm missing, I'd be overworking the brass for nothing. RIGHT?

[C. Latch]

That's correct. My .45 Colt (revolver) brass almost look like bottlenecks. Once in a while one will grow at the base and be a little tight, and need to be mashed into the cylinder, and if you encounter that you'll probably find that it's hard to 'mash' things with a lever-gun, but it's rare and you can always run them through a FL sizer when that pops up.

[DeanWinchester]

Big meplat anyone??
Here's my next attempt. Accurate mold 45-340L. .454 Casull, 23.0g of Win 296. Velocity listed for a handgun is 1300 fps. I exect a bit more from the rifle barrel.

Gently kisses the rifling upon closing. Extracts easy. Should make some BIG holes.

Crummy Iphone picture
http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd371/Reloadingfool/photo_zpsf8deedcf.jpg

[DeanWinchester]

Curious, if I were inclined to start hitting the blackpowder on this; Couldn't I figure the perfect amount of powder to give a bit of compression and just barely size the mouth of the case. Then seat the boolit long and let it engage the rifling to set final OAL. Kinda like the paper patchers do.

[C. Latch]

Big meplat anyone??
Here's my next attempt. Accurate mold 45-340L. .454 Casull, 23.0g of Win 296. Velocity listed for a handgun is 1300 fps. I exect a bit more from the rifle barrel.

Gently kisses the rifling upon closing. Extracts easy. Should make some BIG holes.

Crummy Iphone picture
http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd371/Reloadingfool/photo_zpsf8deedcf.jpg


I looked at your picture and load information and couldn't help but think of the scene where Roy Bean kills Bad Bob.

Man, that load ought to leave a hole in something. :bigsmyl2:

[DeanWinchester]

I'm hoping to poke one of these through a barely legal spike buck with a nice merciful bang flop. Shoulder blade shot at 50 yards should guarantee I don't have to track nuthin'! Whatcha bet it turns his lungs into tapioca.

I'm going to try a couple different loads. The 296 load and my manual lists a 325g boolit with a starting load of Unique at 11.3g. SO, I'm going to try 10.0g of Unique. 10.0g has been accurate in EVERYTHING and we all know it. I'm hoping this is no different.

[Ben]

1,400 fps. with that bullet is roughly equivalent to a light bullet 45/70. No doubt at all about the killing power of this on white tailed deer. Going to make a large exit hole.

Ben

[DeanWinchester]

That's what I was thinking. Even without pushing too hard I can get to the bottom end of standard 45/70 loads in a light and handy package.

[Snyd]

Big meplat anyone??
Here's my next attempt. Accurate mold 45-340L. .454 Casull, 23.0g of Win 296. Velocity listed for a handgun is 1300 fps. I exect a bit more from the rifle barrel.

Gently kisses the rifling upon closing. Extracts easy. Should make some BIG holes.



I've got one that looks close. 355gr wfn from a custom LBT mould. I trim 454 brass to half the length between 45 Colt and 454. This allows me to crimp in the crimp groove and have a OAL that allows it to feed reliably in the 454 levergun. Dual gun load. I call the load the 454 Snyd :D 23 gr LilGun. I've pushed it harder but don't see the need.

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w505/pbsnyd/targets/454Snyd_03.jpg

[DeanWinchester]

Man those are some clean holes! Like a paper punch.

[Ben]

It is going to make the same " clean holes " in meat ! !

[GoodOlBoy]

I know I am kinda late to the discussion on this one, but lemme throw a couple of bits out here.

#1 in my handi 45-70 if I try to shoot it off of a sandbag or rest it WON'T group. Standing strong hand it groups like nobodies business. I think it is just an H&R thing. Probably because of the way the barrel locks into the receiver. You CAN shoot one without a fore-grip on it in an emergency, but not a great idea IMHO. So I think resting pressure on the fore-grip just plays heck with them... does on mine anyway.

#2 in my experience trail boss prefers a good crimp. Just saying.

#3 Dad loaded 300 grain XTP Mags at WAYY faster than I wanted to shoot from MY shoulder. I have a buddy who loaded 45 long colts with 360 grain lead cast also loaded to MUCH faster than I wanted to shoot from My shoulder. 454 casull is a nice round, but nothing wrong with a good old fashioned 45 lc.

#4 Have never seen anything good from crimping long to contact the lands and grooves either. For me it always did nothing, or had a negative effect. Some people swear by it, if it works for you go for it.

anyway that's my.... 4 cents. Your mileage may vary.

GoodOlBoy

[Nrut]

For heavy kickers I use a "Bulls Bag"..
http://www.bullsbag.com/
Turn the bag about 45 degrees to downrange, rest your forearm (not rifles forearm) in the groove of the bag and hold the forearm of the rifle in your hand..
Once you get everything nestled down you will end up with the rifle just kissing the bag inboard from you hand..
I still use a butt bag..
Spend some time getting it set up and right using some 1by or 2X6's for getting the correct elevation..
You end up with better groups as the rifle isn't bouncing off the bag, plus you are shooting from a more natural position..

If I can arrange it I don't size my brass for my single shots..
I hand seat a tight fitting bullet, one that is sized so it sort of pops when you pull the lubed bullet out of the case..
Then I use powder with or without plastic shot buffer to control seating depth..

Glen Fryxell wrote a article on shooting heavies (330gr. to 520 gr.:shock:) out of his 10" Contender back in 96 using slower than normal powders, ei. AA1680, IMR4198 and Rl-7..
Note his overall cart. length as that plays an important role when using such a small case..
https://www.google.ca/search?q=something+old.+something+new%2C+something +borrowed+by+glen+fryell&rlz=1C1GGGE_enCA399CA401&oq=something+old.+something+new%2C+something+borro wed++by+glen+fryell&aqs=chrome..69i57.69825j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=something+old.+something+new%2C+something+borr owed+by+glen+fryxell

BTW that FN bullet looks like the cats meow..
Be sure to report how it does at 100 and if it shoots point on at that distant..

[DeanWinchester]

BOOOOYYAAAAHHHH!!!!!!

THese things shoot!!!!!!! Took me five or six to get the scope dialed in. I pulled the target sights and put a steel body Weaver K4 post on top. MUCH better.

Anywho, my trail boss load was way low, no surprise. I tried 10.0g of Unique. Brisk load but not too hot. Recoil was present but not unpleasant. Easy shooter. Grouped these at 25 yards off a rest and they shot inside 2 inches.
The 296 loads shocked the pee outta me! First five, about an inch and a half. Next five, ALL TOUCHING.
These handi rifles are well known to get all kind of stupid when the barrel gets hot. It kept grouping so I kept shooting. I shot everything I loaded with no cool down time. The 296 loads were fairly stout and the barrel heated up pretty fast. BY time i was done, it really hot. It just kept on layin' em in there!

My new precious! .454 Casull handi rifle and 23.0g of 296 under an Accurate 340g boolit.
Ohh, and NO leading. I had Ben's Red residue all over the crown and could even see it on the bench a little. BUT, no leading.
Man, i'm tickled with this. Next go 'round I'm gonna stretch it out to 50 and maybe even 100 yards.

[DeanWinchester]

Tried 24.0g this weekend. Shot just as good. I'm gonna creep up to about 26.0g slowly. That oughta put me at nigh 1700fps. Basically a low end 45/70.

[Springfield]

Haven't tried any heavy loads in my 45 Colt Handi, it is mostly for the kids to shoot. I have tried some 400 grainers in my 45-70 Buff Classic, not too bad on recoil, it's just those pointy ends of the buttplate than bothered me. So I made a simple leather cover to dull them a bit. Also tends to stick to my shoulder better. I shoulda made it inside out with the rough side out like I did on some others, but it still works. I now have a 22 Hornet Handi, and as soon as the NOE mould is done I think it will be fun for the kids to shoot. These things are addicting!

114487

[DeanWinchester]

They ARE addictive! I started on these things and now i don't care if i ever get my AR out anymore.

[tomme boy]

If you have any 2400, don't be afraid to try it. 17-18 gr shot a 1.25-1.75" groups with my 45 colt H&R at 100 yds with a 300 gr flat base from Accurate Molds. It had a long chamber on it also. I sold it to White Eagle here on this board if you want to talk to him about it.

Some of the guys over on the Greybeard board that are doing their 45 colts into a 460 so it will handle the 454 no problem.

[DeanWinchester]

I ran up as far as 25.0g of 296 today and even scooted out to 100 yards with it. Using the same point of aim on my post reticle, I wasn't seeing much drop from 50 to 100 yards. Grouping wasn't competition grade but plenty good for putting meat on the table. Tried out my first run of Lil'gun. 22.0g under this 340g'er and a steel buttplate makes this a little bruiser. Fun, not abusive but I got a little mark on my shoulder.

With the Accurate 45-340L I can hit a clay target at 100 consistently. For this rifle's intended purpose, it's gonna be great.