Worst product introduction in history

[jonp]

I was cruising the internet and came across an ad for an EtronX rifle. Can anyone come up with a bigger disaster than that one? Yikes, what was Remington thinking?

[Artful]

gyrojet?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet

or how about the two year run of the 7mm Express Cartridge from Remington - aka 280 Remington renamed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.280_Remington

History

Having been released 32 years after the .270 Winchester (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.270_Winchester), it had somewhat unspectacular sales; Remington renamed the cartridge in 1979, calling it the 7 mm Express in an attempt to increase sales. This resulted in people confusing it with the 7 mm Remington Magnum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_mm_Remington_Magnum) and Remington two years later changed the name back to .280 in 1981.

don't forget 244 Remington aka 6mm remington
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.244_Remington

[jonp]

Artful: i almost bought a 244 mag that i saw on a shelf for dirtcheap. I could not find any info on it so let it pass. The other calibers you mention work but suffered bad press. The EtronX was just a bad idea imo

Was the gyrojet ever released commercially?

[remy3424]

Just lookin for a quicker lock time...thinkin about accuracy.....no, it wasn't received well at all. The 244 wasn't a bad caliber, same as the 6mm Rem, they just quickened the twist to shoot the 100 gr boolits...the old twist rate would be fine with today's lightweight boolits on varmints.

[Screwbolts]

The 244 rem with its 1x12 twist will also stabalize the 105 gr oeer RN bullet. It is a great caliber.

jonp: are you thinking of the 222 mag. (Another great carteidge) never seen a 244 Mag 240 weatherby yes.

Ken

[Ironduke]

The M1 family of tanks use electric ignition instead of a firing pin. Same on the 20mm and 30mm multi barrel cannons (yes, i know the plural of cannon is cannon,but the s at the end sounds better here). Lock time is shorter, but you have to handle the ammo carefully. For example, they taught us to never touch the primer on the main gun round with bare hands in case of static spark setting off a 120mm round in the turret.

I think the idea was good, but it would be hard to manage safety with electric primers

[jonp]

No Ken. It was stamped 244 Mag. Someone must have wildcatted it and wisely stamped the barrel. I probaby could have cast the chamber and figured it out but it seemed too much work at the time. One of the locals was a gunsmith that worked at Essex Arms so i surmised it was a project of his but i never asked him about it

[35remington]

Yes, I can think of a bigger disaster than that one. Remington's new R51 pistol. This has a much larger potential market than the Etronix rifle, and it marked Remington's return to an original design, one that was solely theirs. A rather unique operating system that wasn't a "me too" copy of something else.

Appears they have utterly botched it. Heads should be rolling over the debacle that was the introduction of that pistol.

[Bullshop]

There were a few of the first 244 rifles that left Illion marked 244 mag. Same cartridge that later became the 6mm Rem just a third designation including 244 Rem, 244 mag, and 6mm Rem.

[jonp]

Darn....it was a rem if i remember right. I may have passed up a good one.

[Bullshop]

I have read that the number of rifles stamped 244 mag was vey small, like maybe a two digit number.

[Leadmelter]

The money boys at Cerebrus will be watching closely. They are the same crew that ran Chrysler into the ground.
They own several small arms companies.
Money! Money!!
Money!!!
Leadmelter
MI

[Bloodman14]

Remember the Remington 522 Viper? Worst trigger EVER!! Ammo was great.

[osteodoc08]

Remember the Remington 522 Viper? Worst trigger EVER!! Ammo was great.

Yep. I've got 2 in the gun cabinet. One is missing the extractor. I received it as a Christmas present around the age of 12-13 from my father. Managed to get a few squirrels and vermin with it. Worst damn trigger I've ever put a finger on. Worse than my Mosin.

[Screwbolts]

Jonp and Dan, Thank you for the info on the 244 mag. I will try and find info on the twist of the "Mag" Marked barrel.

JonP, I meant no disrespect, I live 17 miles from the Illion plant and have many friends that " Have/ Used to " work there. Unfortuanately many that worked in the custom shop or on the line, of this time period are " Late " .

Let the lead fly straight,

Ken Hall

[Blammer]

the Tround, the shotgun that has two magazine tubes side by side, that's been introduced twice now and failed both times.

pretty much anything 17HM2, 22 hornet revolver, caseless ammo and a 22lr to go with it.

give me a bit and I'll think of some more.

[thxmrgarand]

All of these alleged product introduction failures combined do not come close to the fiasco that was and is ObamaCare.

[Blammer]

wilk GC's. :)

[cattleskinner]

How about a Flo be hair cutting system...

[dragon813gt]

The Etronx design has quite a few advantages. But no hunter wants to rely on batteries to bag that big buck. Wrong timing or bad design? We will see if they decide to reintroduce it at some point.

[jonp]

Jonp and Dan, Thank you for the info on the 244 mag. I will try and find info on the twist of the "Mag" Marked barrel.

JonP, I meant no disrespect, I live 17 miles from the Illion plant and have many friends that " Have/ Used to " work there. Unfortuanately many that worked in the custom shop or on the line, of this time period are " Late " .

Let the lead fly straight,

Ken Hall

No Problem Ken. I had no idea there was a 244 Mag or the history of the gun. I had heard of the 244 and If I had known about the few stamped differently I would have snapped it up. It was around 2000 or 2001 I think and was about $200.

[leadman]

The primers are still available, over $200 per thousand.

[Artful]

The primers are still available, over $200 per thousand.

:holysheep:veryconfu:kidding:

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LrM5tzU_LI

[dondiego]

Loved the soundtrack!

[Airman Basic]

Loved the soundtrack!
Believe it or not, I think I recognize the artist. Can't quite put my finger on it. Not mid-60s though, I don't think. Maybe 70s?

[wv109323]

The cartridge known as the .22 Remington Jet was a total disaster. The cartridge was a bottleneck pistol cartridge was used in revolvers.( I think all were S&W) The bottleneck case stretched and locked up the cylinder from rotating.

[Scharfschuetze]

The 5mm Remington Rim Fire Magnum didn't fare well either, although sub .22 RFs seem to be doing well now. In hind sight, I guess Remington was a bit a head of the pack on this one.

At one time, you could get a center fire conversion for the rifle, but I haven't seen a RF or CF version in years.

[I'll Make Mine]

The 5mm Remington Rim Fire Magnum didn't fare well either.

Last I heard, Aguila was making rounds for this chamber -- first time they'd been available in twenty years or so.

[dudel]

Believe it or not, I think I recognize the artist. Can't quite put my finger on it. Not mid-60s though, I don't think. Maybe 70s?

Green - by James Sudakow

Interesting electric violin

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/sudakow/from/Masterpages/www.cdbaby.com/cd/Masterpages/www.cdbaby.com/cd/sudakow

[Walter Laich]

Not a firearm but I always wondered who came up with Lawn Darts??

[jonp]

Not a firearm but I always wondered who came up with Lawn Darts??

Weren't those called Jarts? We always played at camp.

[Old Caster]

How about the Lyman digital furnace. I don't know if it will ever be available other than to look at in catalogs.

[finstr]

The flymo lawn mower....107987

[shredder]

New Coke anyone??

[jonp]

Well....I was actually speaking of firearms in my op but, as usual, if you do not clearly state exactly what you are after you end up with lawnmowers and soda :kidding:

[Scharfschuetze]

Ha, ha! Well I guess the floor is open for debate now.

I'll throw the Ford "Edsel" out as one of the biggest flops in marketing history. It was reported to be a fairly good car.

http://www.conceptcarseries.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/ford_edsel-shiny.jpg

[TXGunNut]

I'll admit that I was pretty sure the 40 S&W was a poor compromise between the 45 acp and the 9mm and not as good as either. I also theorized that the 17HMR would never last because it simply wasn't possible to mass-produce a high quality bullet that small with any level of accuracy.

AR did an article recently on failed firearms designs. Etronix was one of them.

[Dale in Louisiana]

Ha, ha! Well I guess the floor is open for debate now.

I'll throw the Ford "Edsel" out as one of the biggest flops in marketing history. It was reported to be a fairly good car.

http://www.conceptcarseries.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/ford_edsel-shiny.jpg

I was a kid when the Edsel hit the streets. My uncle was the family motorhead, and he said it was as good a car as anything else on the road, but was just so butt-ugly that he hated to see one coming.

When you roll out a product that becomes the synonym for 'marketing failure', you know you've done something. Thanks, Ford! The Edsel did for automobiles what Waterloo did for battles.

dale in Louisiana

[mikeyman]

How about the JR carbine in 45acp. I have yet to hear of someone who has one that functions properly without doing this fix or that tweak. Pitty because I realy wanted one that uses 1911 mags. Oh they have great customer service, they will help you get it fixed. How about making sure it works before you ship it?

[mdi]

Yes, I can think of a bigger disaster than that one. Remington's new R51 pistol. This has a much larger potential market than the Etronix rifle, and it marked Remington's return to an original design, one that was solely theirs. A rather unique operating system that wasn't a "me too" copy of something else.

Appears they have utterly botched it. Heads should be rolling over the debacle that was the introduction of that pistol.

Just wondering how Remington should have marketed their new pistol. I read about it in a gun mag. and I'd like to own one...

I guess I wasn't thinking about product duds 'cause I read the thread title as screwed up product introductions...

[I'll Make Mine]

I guess I wasn't thinking about product duds 'cause I read the thread title as screwed up product introductions...

How much more screwed up introduction do you need than everyone who buys one of the new pistols having to deburr almost every part before it'll function correctly?

[Airman Basic]

How much more screwed up introduction do you need than everyone who buys one of the new pistols having to deburr almost every part before it'll function correctly?
Heck, that's just about every new gun I've bought lately!

[bbqncigars]

I was thinking of the R51 as well. Maybe it's just part of modern business (Microsoft?) to use your customers as beta testers. Not a happy-making situation.

[brtelec]

The Gyrojet was very interesting. 20 some years ago I had a huge cartridge collection and in it I had 4 Gyrojet rounds. I met a guy when I was in the firearms business that had a Gyrojet pistol and I sold him 3 of the rounds and fired the 4th one. The most interesting thing about it was the hammer struck the round on the nose and it was a light stamped metal construction.

Epic fails would have to include the Bren Ten.

[butch2570]

Heck, that's just about every new gun I've bought lately! Yeah,that's right, we shouldn't buy any of this new high priced remlin junk they are putting out these days... I used to buy a fair amount of remington products, not now , iv'e never seen such inferior products. They are the worst about introducing something new and 3 yrs from now , you can't buy support for it. They have a list a mile long of good products they get you to buy and then slowly phase them out. 22 jet, 222rem, 222 rem mag, 6.5 rem mag, 244/ 6mm, 5mm, etronix. I f they didn't stop support totally for just some of these items, they made them so restricted they just as well had.

[mdi]

How much more screwed up introduction do you need than everyone who buys one of the new pistols having to deburr almost every part before it'll function correctly?
As I read the OP, it speaks of product introductions, not initial product quality.


If Remington is getting people to buy inferior products, I'd say their product marketing/introduction is pretty damned good!

[Artful]

If Remington is getting people to buy inferior products, I'd say their product marketing/introduction is pretty damned good!

http://www.bonzerwolf.com/storage/gun-salesman-the-year-vik-battaile-politics-1356130848.jpg

[Airman Basic]

If Remington is getting people to buy inferior products, I'd say their product marketing/introduction is pretty damned good!
I think they're trading on their past reputation, same reason marketers pay well for defunct trademarks, Polaroid, soon Kodak, for examples, then produce shoddy goods for as long as the luster lasts.

[6thtexas]

Anyone else remember the Daisy real firearm (not airgun) that used caseless ammunition, the Federal 9mm rimmed cartridge, or the 9mm Colt A2000 (I think that was the model #)?

[JeffinNZ]

The 5mm Remington Rim Fire Magnum didn't fare well either, although sub .22 RFs seem to be doing well now. In hind sight, I guess Remington was a bit a head of the pack on this one.

At one time, you could get a center fire conversion for the rifle, but I haven't seen a RF or CF version in years.

You are very correct. Remington was ahead of it's time. Imagine taking the 5mm today with modern powders and a 30gr polymer tip bullet.

[DisinterestedThirdParty]

The 357 Maximum. After the first or second box, the forcing cone erosion made it near unusable. Ruger came out with a single action in 357 Maximum with the problem. With that, I pretty much lost a lot of confidence in their guns (I do, however, own 3...).
Couldn't anyone take a case to the range, blast away and look at what's left?

Just a guess, but I attributed that who fiasco to some Harvard MBA....

[buckwheatpaul]

The Obama/Holder machine.....it doesn't work for the citizens of this Country.....

[Safeshot]

The Remington Mod. 798 Rifle (imported "Mauser M98"), highly advertised, even rebates. No one that I know of ever actually saw one that was for sale and/or available. Why advertise an item that is not available. The Remington Mod 770 Rifles, really sad. The only bolt action rifle I have ever seen that does not have primary extraction and is very difficult to use if usable at all. The trigger guards and stocks are ugly also. These are available but no one would ever buy a second one.

[Scharfschuetze]

I actually saw one of those Remington 798 rifles. It's metal to wood fit looked like gremlins had pieced it together on Monday morning after a weekend of drinking. The rest of the rifle was pretty unimpressive. I had the store clerk put it right back on the rack.

[Tackleberry41]

I have seen the electronic ignition muzzle loaders, cant say I would own one. Batteries always seem to die when you really need them, and now you need a pocket full of 9v batteries just in case. And they are so cheap to buy. Now you need uber expensive specialized primers to reload, or buy uber expensive factory ammo, tho ammo thats not sold anymore.

It is funny Remington does seem to have a bin full of ideas that never went anywhere. Yes there is innovation. But some of the 'innovations' gun companies come up with are just trying to move products. The whole slew of 300(insert some combination of letters) chamberings that came out. All proprietary to one companies guns that were so much better at killing deer than the other 30 caliber rifles you have.

I know the name Remington will continue to live on in some shape or form. There are some that will buy a Remington no matter how bad they get. The guys who own the brand now, will milk it for all its worth then sell it off to somebody else who will farm it all out to china.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I always figured the Etronx was Remington trying to get the jump on the 'SMART GUN', something that could be turned off or disabled, on/off switch or key, needed batteries, would not fire 'conventional cartridges' then political climate changed just enough to stop that concept.

[gunshot98]

I never have liked the Rem. 770. Think it was a bad choice, and also the 887. Why would you ever want to replace the 870. It was and is great.

[TXGunNut]

I actually saw one of those Remington 798 rifles. It's metal to wood fit looked like gremlins had pieced it together on Monday morning after a weekend of drinking. The rest of the rifle was pretty unimpressive. I had the store clerk put it right back on the rack.

That was my impression as well. Much to do about very little. It sounded like a great idea...

[jonk]

Yes, I can think of a bigger disaster than that one. Remington's new R51 pistol. This has a much larger potential market than the Etronix rifle, and it marked Remington's return to an original design, one that was solely theirs. A rather unique operating system that wasn't a "me too" copy of something else.
Appears they have utterly botched it. Heads should be rolling over the debacle that was the introduction of that pistol. I have an original Remington 51, and the thing that they introduced is nothing like it, other than perhaps the Pederson based action. They are marketing it as a perfect carry gun due to lower recoil impulse, but only provide a trigger safety; having a 1911 style safety or Beretta/Walther type instead would make it much safer as a carry gun. I know I would be afraid to carry ANY gun with one in the chamber and only a finger safety between me and an accidental discharge.

Additionally it is BULKY. They took the slender, easy to carry original, and made it a fat bloated whale.

Reintroducing the design with modern sights, safety, and perhaps a double stack mag could have been 'job done.' But no, they couldn't do that, they had to try to make it look like a round edged Glock. And in the process created a chubby bumpkin.

[nicholst55]

I have an original Remington 51, and the thing that they introduced is nothing like it, other than perhaps the Pederson based action. They are marketing it as a perfect carry gun due to lower recoil impulse, but only provide a trigger safety; having a 1911 style safety or Beretta/Walther type instead would make it much safer as a carry gun. I know I would be afraid to carry ANY gun with one in the chamber and only a finger safety between me and an accidental discharge.

Additionally it is BULKY. They took the slender, easy to carry original, and made it a fat bloated whale.

Reintroducing the design with modern sights, safety, and perhaps a double stack mag could have been 'job done.' But no, they couldn't do that, they had to try to make it look like a round edged Glock. And in the process created a chubby bumpkin.

Remington has since discontinued the R51, abandoning it as a total failure.

[dudel]

Remington has since discontinued the R51, abandoning it as a total failure.

Not correct. Fixing the problems with a planned relaunch in October. Offering replacements to anyone who wants one.

http://blogs.militarytimes.com/gearscout/2014/07/25/remington-addresses-r51-problems/

http://www.ammoland.com/2014/07/remington-announces-r51-pistol-exchange/#axzz38YcncnGn


I'm still want one.

[shooterbob]

There were a few of the first 244 rifles that left Illion marked 244 mag. Same cartridge that later became the 6mm Rem just a third designation including 244 Rem, 244 mag, and 6mm Rem.

I had a 244 mag in the shop once and it was a 6mm/06. Someone had stamped it 244 mag which I assume was the builder. Maybe prior to 6mm/06 being used.