why is my 45 leading?

[kryogen]

Ruger sr1911, fired .451 boolits lubed with 45/45/10 at an fps to cycle the pistol.
leading

wheel weights, air cooled.

why, because they are .451 and should be 452 ?

[leeggen]

Have you slugged your barrel to see what dia. it is? Then size to .001 to .002 over that. Also what powder you useing?
CD

[HeavyMetal]

Kinda scant info there Bud!


Post the load and boolit design please.

You may not be "hot" enough to get the boolit to seal but the complete load data can tell us that.

[Moonie]

I'd be willing to bet .451 is just too small, I size all of mine .452. Couple of questions, what does your pistol groove slug at? Are you using the Lee FCD?

[RobS]

1. Load details (powder charge & COL),
2. reloading dies being used,
3. boolit used,
4. alloy of boolits,
5. where the leading is in the barrel
6. along with barrel dimensions will help us, help you.

.452 would probably be better though especially if you are using an alloy that won't bump back up right away and leads the bore the first 1" or so of the barrel. I know that the new Ruger 1911's along with many new auto's being produced have short/abrupt throats which can cause the boolit to shave off and then the rest of the boolit irons these small lead pieces to the bore right at the lands/first 1/2" of the barrel or so.

Give us a bit more info., there's enough experience here we can figure this out.

[gray wolf]

RobS
Thant was a very nice post, I like the way you ask all the correct questions as a guide.
Sometimsa folks just do not include enough info.

TNKS

[kryogen]

1. Load details (powder charge & COL)
4.5BE, oal that fits the bullet.


2. reloading dies being used
LEE

3. boolit used,
lee TL452 230 RN

4. alloy of boolits,
wheel weights

5. where the leading is in the barrel
everywhere

6. along with barrel dimensions will help us, help you.
.451


I only have a .451 sizer, maybe I should try to enlarge the sizer die a bit.
But then I would also need a micrometer because I am trying to measure with a caliper and that sucks.

[RPRNY]

My opinion: WW alloy too hard to obturate fully for load. And .451" is probably not the groove diameter in a Ruger. A .452 -.453" softer bullet for the load will likely solve this.

If you cannot adjust size or BHN, upping load consistent with safety may be a distant third or fourth solution but very marginal. If you can't change size, go soft at least like 20:1, 25:1 alloy and see if it will bump out for you first. You may need to play with charge a little bit if only adjusting BHN.

[RobS]

What are the boolits dropping as cast? Try and not size them just load them the way they are from the mold and see if they will chamber. As cast will likely do you well since most Lee 45 cal TL designs drop at .452ish anyway.

If you are using the Lee Factory crimp die to crimp with that could be an issue. Measure a boolit before loading a dummy round and then remeasure it again after seating and crimping. Are you using the Lee FCD with the carbide post sizing ring? Regardless what you are using to measure with a caliper if used correctly will tell you if the reloading process is sizing your boolits down.

[HeavyMetal]

Alliant data shows 5 grains of Bullseye behind a 230 grain golddot your 4.5 grain load is pretty close so a slight adjustment might get you where you need to be but I don't think so.

Instead I think you have a boolit problem!

Things to check:

Pull a loaded boolit and check diameter after you've seated a boolit, if your using Lee's FCD crimp die the boolits maybe getting squeezed as they go in and out of that die.

If that's not the issue move to a magnifiying glass and shine the harsh light of day ( and a 100 watt bulb) on your boolits. Your looking for base imperfections in your castings. every round you load should have a clean crisp well filled out base, square or bevel base makes no difference but they must be sharp and crisp! If not they will gas cut and lead.

Once your satisfied with you castings, and if the leading continues, go to water dropping them as they come out of the mold! If your using clip on ww metal you should have enough anitmony in them to harden pretty good, 2% tin ( from lead free solder) will help with fillout.

Did I see right your sizing Tumble lube boolits??? What are they dropping out of the mold at? Lee's TL designs you cast right at the desired diameter, in this case it should be .452 ( pending actual barrel diameter) and you should not have yo size them.

Never having been a fan of the whole tumble lube idea my guts telling me your suffering a lube failure, suggest you "double dip" your next loading, after you've checked all of the above of course.

The correct course of action here is to remove one issue at a time shoot to see if an improvement has been made and then move on to the next,, which is why I listed my suggestions in the order I think you should check out.

[tomme boy]

Just shoot the TL bullets lubed and thats it. Don't size them.

[bruce381]

short answer:
""why, because they are .451 and should be 452 ?""

YES

My 45acp's go from sewer pipe leading to NONE when I go from .451 to .452

[MtGun44]

Another - YES -combine a marginal lube system and boolit too small. . . . . high probability of leading.

Bill

[shoot-n-lead]

Just shoot the TL bullets lubed and thats it. Don't size them.

Correct!

If you are sizing TL bullets...there is your problem...shoot them as cast and the leading will go away.

[kryogen]

ok thanks

[RobS]

kryogen even if you shoot boolits as cast, at the correct diameter it may not matter at all if the reloading process swages down on your boolit. As I mentioned check a as cast boolit diameter before and then after you load a dummy round. I've seen my self what the seating and crimping can do to a perfectly sized boolit and the intended diameter is no longer as such when the boolit comes back out of the case and down the barrel.

[62chevy]

Even the seating die can swag your boolit down if not properly setup. I learned that one the hard way yesterday.

[kryogen]

ok will cast some and report.
will need a micrometer anyway to open up the die. (if I decide to PC those, I'll resize to 452 after.)

[Larry Gibson]

kryogen

I have shot thousands of .451 sized cast bullets through numerous 45 ACP handguns (45 ARs and a couple 45 Colts also) w/o any leading. I sized at .452 for some years but have gone back to .451 with my ACP loads now because I have one that will not chamber a .452 sized bullet reliably.

You have one of 2 problems or possibly both;

1st it is possible your 45-45-10 lube is not up to the job. You may have followed direction but it is possible something is different with your batch than with others batches. To find out simply lube the bullets with straight LLA as per the instructions and let them dry completely before sizing or loading. Try those over the same 5 gr BE load (an excellent load BTW).

If you still get "leading" it could be that your "leading" may be antimonal wash instead of actual leading. Your COWW alloy may have little or no tin in it. I suggest you add 2% tin, cast some more bullets and let them air cool for 7 - 10 days before lubing, sizing and loading. In either case, whether leading or antimonal wash, the tin will improve the alloy.

Either of these suggestions or both should solve your problem.

Larry Gibson

[RobS]

Larry,
What alloy are you using specifically for your 45 ACP and approximate BHN? Also do you have any of your 45 ACPs that have a short/abrupt throat that is often times being seen with current production semi-auto's?

[kryogen]

what is antimonal wash

[RobS]

Antimony wash is a very thin streaking of antimony in the barrel. It should not build up any worse from the first 10 or so shots to the next however many you shoot which can be in the hundreds etc. Should be able to be taken out of a barrel with a quick 2 or 3 passes of a bore brush.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,
What alloy are you using specifically for your 45 ACP and approximate BHN? Also do you have any of your 45 ACPs that have a short/abrupt throat that is often times being seen with current production semi-auto's?

Range lead alloy (RL + lead + tin) for about 12 BHN is what most of my 45 ACP and 45 Colt bullets are cast of these days as I have a lot of that. I used a lot of COWWs + 2 % tin and Lyman #2 (both 14 - 16 BHN) in the past and probably will again when the RL runs out. My match chambered P-14 has a very short throat as does the Rhineland M98 barrel. My grandson's Kahr is that was is a Kimber I was shooting day before yesterday. I seat all of my cast bullet .451 sized 45 ACP loads now to fit with a "plunk" test in the P-14 barrel and they seem to fit everything else these days. My load is also 5 gr Bullseye and most are lubed with BAC these days but I'm using 190 - 200 gr bullets. I've not had any leading in any handgun or the rifle with them yet. I still have a couple thousand loaded with the .452 sized bullets seated out a bit that fit my 2 Colt M1911s so I use them in those, my M1917/25 and my 45 ACP cylinder in the Evil Roy SAA.

Larry Gibson

[RobS]

Larry:
You are a tin guy where as others use tin very little if ever. I've shot tons of WW boolits with no additional tin. I did so because my mold filled out well so I didn't see the need. I don't experience any leading, perhaps some very little antimony wash from time to time however it's not effecting accuracy. Is there something about tin that helps keep a barrel from leading (not antimony wash) all else being similar i.e. nearly the same BHN, same lube, same boolit, same load etc.? Purely educational here, I figure something is up as you've mentioned 2% tin in many posts here on the forum and I bet I used tin only about 2% of the time in all my casting needs which extend from low pressure handguning to high end magnum revolver and on into rifle boolits.

[6bg6ga]

I had a problem leading using a 452374 and sizing with a Lyman 450 sizer. The load was 5.6gr of 231. The bullets ended up .451 and out of round. The problem was solved when I went to a Star sizer with a .452 die. I always used WW lead. I still use WW lead, 5.6gr of 231 and bullets sized thru the Star and no leading.

[kryogen]

I bought a mastercraft micrometer but somehow the vernier scale looks screwed to me.
When it's approx half between thousands, it shows .7 Then when it shows 10 (technically, it should be on the next thousand zero, it's still like .8 between the lines.

Should I return that micrometer and buy something better? I hate paying 40$ for ****....

But it looks to me like my ruger 1911 bore is .4515 and also, it looks like my resized boolits are .4515 also.
Will need to cast some new tomorrow to see where my mold drops. And then maybe open up my sizing die a bit to .4525 to have a thou over bore, and I guess that i'll just try powdercoating those also then resize to .4525 and should be good, right?

[prs]

Kryogen:

You have some good advice above and some which at first seems conflicting. I have two Ruger SR1911 and both slug right at .451". The two chambers are also similar and both are plenty generous to accept cartridges fitted with .452" boolits (actually, my .452 lube-sizer die leaves the boolits a tiny bit over .452"). Both of my Ruger SR1911's leaded in excess with that same boolit you used, it was the worse offender of the 6 styles I have used. Recluse lube was also the least successful lube I used in these particular pistols, although it served well in my 45 Colt Vaqueros and Marlin rifles. In fact, I got at least a little real honest to goodness leading with all the cast boolits and lubes and alloys and powders I tried.

I got it where I was pretty happy with the Lyman 230gr hardball clone and the Lee 200gr 68 almost clone, and even the traditional lubed Lee 230gr TC. But never total freedom from leading given extended shooting of 100 to 200 rounds.

In regard to the loading process, the above fellow hand loaders helped me a lot. No carbide factory crimp die, use NRA 50:50 lube or BAC lube, use fairly soft alloy of 12 to 14 BHN (I use 95:2:3 now pb/sn/sb), use fast powder such as 231, TG, Red Dot, Unique, 700X to work-up loads, get the COL correct to plunk and not be less than minimum, and get the taper crimp applied separate from seating and measure at the case mouth at about .471" with micrometer. Even at that the Rugers would lead a little at the beginning of the rifling and with continued shooting the leading would spread down the tube.

I realized what the likely cause was. I did not really want to correct the problem; that being the leade from the end of the chamber to the rifling was practically no leade at all! The chamber ended in a sharp square cut ridge and just as abruptly the rifling started. I finally gave in and ordered a Manson throating reamer from Brownels and, and, and, chickened-out. Then someone else mentioned the same problem on this site and how the reaming helped, I think that may be among the numerous STICKIES at the head of this forum.

So, I did it to one of the pistols and BINGO! No more leading with either of the three boolits with which I had had some fair success with prior to the reaming. I did the second pistol and again total success. I believe you still have to do the hand loading correctly. But, I also think you can do EVERYTHING right and if that abrupt sharp edge shaves lead, such shavings being driven over by subsequent boolits; then its going to lead some with extended use.

I suggest you do work through the process and do everything before having your barrels modified, but you may have to ream if you want freedom from leading. Then again, maybe all the barrels Ruger uses are not the same; I have no way of knowing that. If you visually examine the end of your chamber and it does not look to be a simple 90 degree ending, use a sharp awl to reach down and trace it and you maybe surprised that a ring of lead is pealed away to expose the sharp ledge. I found that frequently.

prs

[RobS]

I realized what the likely cause was. I did not really want to correct the problem; that being the leade from the end of the chamber to the rifling was practically no leade at all! The chamber ended in a sharp square cut ridge and just as abruptly the rifling started. I finally gave in and ordered a Manson throating reamer from Brownels and, and, and, chickened-out. Then someone else mentioned the same problem on this site and how the reaming helped, I think that may be among the numerous STICKIES at the head of this forum.

So, I did it to one of the pistols and BINGO! No more leading with either of the three boolits with which I had had some fair success with prior to the reaming. I did the second pistol and again total success. I believe you still have to do the hand loading correctly. But, I also think you can do EVERYTHING right and if that abrupt sharp edge shaves lead, such shavings being driven over by subsequent boolits; then its going to lead some with extended use.

I suggest you do work through the process and do everything before having your barrels modified, but you may have to ream if you want freedom from leading. Then again, maybe all the barrels Ruger uses are not the same; I have no way of knowing that. If you visually examine the end of your chamber and it does not look to be a simple 90 degree ending, use a sharp awl to reach down and trace it and you maybe surprised that a ring of lead is pealed away to expose the sharp ledge. I found that frequently.

prs

And what I eluded to in my first post, post #5 near the bottom. Now a person may still find success if the throat is short/abrupt but it's not easy. I found it with the Lee TC boolit and I would seat the boolit right at or a bit over where the front drive band and ogive meet and then crimp the brass so it would help create a "funneled" front drive band to the boolit. This was apparent when I would pull a bullet. This is really just a work around or bandaid but it did work. I was also fortunate that my auto would feed a short OAL Lee 230 grain TC design but then again many other autos fed and cycled this round too.

I later on fixed the throat on the particular 45 ACP and all was better and "normal" again.

[kryogen]

is powdercoat the solution then?

[catman81056]

It was for me.

[RobS]

is powdercoat the solution then?

It could help keep the boolit from leading however that isn't the underlying issue. If you to have an abrupt/short throat then the powder coat could still scrape off and give you chambering issues with continued firing of rounds and still yet lead the bore. Right now you don't know what is for sure the issue with your situation.

1. Is it a boolit that is too small to start with
2. Is the boolit being sized down in the reloading process
3. Is it the firearm itself with an abrupt/sharp throat that is scrapping lead and then being ironed on with the next rounds to follow
4. Is it a combination of the above and/or other potential issues

Millions and Millions of cast boolits have been going down barrels and not leading for a very long time. Band-aids or workarounds can be done however the likelihood of things being perfectly the way you want them is less likely..........there will be a compromise and may not be the best for accuracy or function.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry:
You are a tin guy where as others use tin very little if ever. I've shot tons of WW boolits with no additional tin. I did so because my mold filled out well so I didn't see the need. I don't experience any leading, perhaps some very little antimony wash from time to time however it's not effecting accuracy. Is there something about tin that helps keep a barrel from leading (not antimony wash) all else being similar i.e. nearly the same BHN, same lube, same boolit, same load etc.? Purely educational here, I figure something is up as you've mentioned 2% tin in many posts here on the forum and I bet I used tin only about 2% of the time in all my casting needs which extend from low pressure handguning to high end magnum revolver and on into rifle boolits.

I too have cast thousands of cast bullets over the years with straight COWWs with complete success with handgun and rifle cast bullets. However in the last 10 or so years we have seen a serious degradation in the quality of COWWs; mostly lacking some antimony but mostly from having almost no tin. This can be from numerous reasons. Also the quality of COWWs varies across the country from area to area. A ternary alloy (generally the best for the 45 ACP cast bullets under discussion) consists of lead, antimony and tin. The quality of mix of the 3 metals is not the sum of the parts but if in correct proportion the tin and antimony form SbSn which goes into solution better with the lead/Pb. Thus the end alloy is greater in quality than the sum of the parts. I refer you to the "Metallurgy" articles in Lyman's #3 & #4 CBHs for the detailed explanation.

Point is if we have COWW cast bullets with a BHN of 11-12 and we add 2% tin we come up with a much better alloy usually in the 13-16 BHN range (I find 14-15 BHN to be very common with my current batch of COWWs). Additionally the antimony, if not mixed with tin forming SbSn, hardens separately from the lead/Pb. That separate antimony in the alloy is where the antimonal wash comes from. Thus if we have COWWs with 2 - 3% antimony, 1/2% or less tin and the rest lead/PB (pretty much the current content of COWWs) we do not have a good balance of antimony to tin to form the SbSn to go into solution in the lead/Pb. A proper balance of antimony to tin is equal parts of both in the 3 - 4 % range for an excellent ternary alloy. Thus the addition of 2% tin usually brings the % of tin very close to the % of antimony and the SbSn is then formed which in solution in the lead/Pb gives us the much better ternary alloy.

If you have good fillout and your bullets cast to nominal or larger diameter than the mould is cut for you probably have a lot of old COWWs in your mix.

Larry Gibson

[singleshot]

Use the biggest boolit that will reliably chamber. I must say I've never had a 45 acp lead and I've shot 10's of thousands of ACWW rounds with MANY different powders.

[RobS]

Larry I understand what you are saying regards to creating a more uniform alloy and have read the metallurgy articles. My point regards to leading, not antimony wash, does straight WW alloy, even of today's current wheel weights, create the leading that people are seeing in their bores or is it more likely an improperly fitted boolit and/or a firearm that is not within "acceptable" dimensions to be cast boolit friendly? I've shot straight lino which has way more antimony than tin and no leading, and have shot 50/50 lead to ww alloy, straight WW alloy and many different mixed alloys in between etc. and do not have leading (antimony wash, yes at times). Now I can say for sure, I've had leading when boolit fit was not right or if the firearm was not built to shoot cast boolits well.

I'm not saying that what you propose won't help as I've seen that adding tin can eliminate antimony wash and adding tin makes a "tougher boolit".

[kryogen]

I enlarged my lee sizer to .4523 or something, from .4515
Will try to cast 20, powdercoat, size to .452 and see./report.

tumble lube is just too messy anyway.

[singleshot]

Why size?

[detox]

Here is a interesting article.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?232061-1911-Throating

[B.C.Jay]

Ruger sr1911, fired .451 boolits lubed with 45/45/10 at an fps to cycle the pistol.
leading

wheel weights, air cooled.

why, because they are .451 and should be 452 ?


My SR1911 slugged close to .455! It leaded (of course) with .452 but I'm getting away with unsized .454 and 50/50 alloy. The barrel also looked like it was machined with a dull rock. Some day I'll put a real barrel on it, seeing as ruger couldn't get it right the first time.

The rest of the gun seems really good for it's price point.

[tomme boy]

Finish ream the chamber and be done with it. Or call Ruger and tell them to finish doing the job they did not do.

[gray wolf]

My SR1911 slugged close to .455! .
Now that is flat out silly.

[RobS]

My SR1911 slugged close to .455! It leaded (of course) with .452 but I'm getting away with unsized .454 and 50/50 alloy. The barrel also looked like it was machined with a dull rock. Some day I'll put a real barrel on it, seeing as ruger couldn't get it right the first time.

The rest of the gun seems really good for it's price point.


Now that is flat out silly.


I have to agree with Sam on this one..........for heavens sake with today's machining and capabilities this is grossly out of spec. Hell even with yesteryear's technologies it would still be "out of it".

[B.C.Jay]

Now that is flat out silly.

I thought so too, but on a .454 bullet pushed through, there's 2 grooves that won't leave a mark.

[Cadillo]

My P220's require bullets sized to 0.453" to keep a clean lead free bore, anything smaller and they lead.

[243winxb]

From Lyman
While antimony is used to harden the bullet, the mixture of tin is critical, for while antimony mixes with lead in its molten state, it will not remain mixed when it solidifies. If tin were not added, we would have pure antimony crystals surrounded by pure lead. A bullet of this type , while it feels hard , would certainly lead the bore and eliminate all potential for accuracy.. In a lead-tin-antimony mixture, the antimony crystals will be present just the same, but they will be imbedded in a lead-tin mixutre. As the bullet cools the tin will form around the antimony-lead keeping your bullets from leading the bore.

[kryogen]

trying some .4512-.4518 powdercoated boolits this wednesday at the range.
if they still lead I will enlarge the resizing die more, and try some more.

see 2 posts down

[guncheese]

ding ding ding!!! (the alarm went off!!)
if your getting a measument like that, how far out of round is it?
if its dipping low there is a issue
.452" or .454" is all fine and great
but if it dips to .450" or .451" then youll get some gas blasting by

[kryogen]

oh well, will report wednesday night... I loaded 30 or so, will know if it leads or not.

If they do, I'll enlarge the sizer die another thousand or so, or at least until the smaller reading is .4520

I think it was undersized a bit, it's a lee .451 and it seemed to give me some readings of .4505 before enlarging, so it is maybe why I got leading with greased bullets.
After enlarging it quite a bit, I get readings of .4512 to .4518

So my boolits are .0006 out of round, or the die is, or whatever.

[kryogen]

Ok I found out some more.

My bore slugs to .4515 so anything smaller would be expected to lead. sizer was sizing to .4505... no surprise.

I have given it quite a rub with 1000 paper and oil and now it's .4520 to .4522 I would say. Good to start I guess now.

Also, I am trying to seat/crimp at the same time. Doesnt work. crimps the case too soon and it scrapes all the powdercoat off the boolit.
I will have to use a separate taper crimp die so I seat without scraping, and then taper crimp.

Will report once I do that I guess. Oh god, another 30 bullets to pull. My 451 loads are useless and scraped anyway, not worth shooting to have to clean leading.

What is a good taper crimp on 452 boolits? case wall is approx .012, so that's .452 + .024 = .474, but people report crimping to .468-.471. That means I am squishing the boolit a bit?
OAL with the lee 230RNTL seems to be right at 1.260 Does that make sense?

Thanks

[tomme boy]

I do mine at 0.471"-0.472" It depends on your barrel.

[RobS]

Ok I found out some more.

My bore slugs to .4515 so anything smaller would be expected to lead. sizer was sizing to .4505... no surprise. A big problem from the beginning.

I have given it quite a rub with 1000 paper and oil and now it's .4520 to .4522 I would say. Good to start I guess now.

Also, I am trying to seat/crimp at the same time. Doesnt work. crimps the case too soon and it scrapes all the powdercoat off the boolit. And a clear indicator to more leading potential. I seriously doubted that powder coating was the cure to all ails.
I will have to use a separate taper crimp die so I seat without scraping, and then taper crimp. I find it easier to seat and then crimp in two different states rather than try to seat/crimp in one stage although a person can do it this way is everything is right.

Will report once I do that I guess. Oh god, another 30 bullets to pull. My 451 loads are useless and scraped anyway, not worth shooting to have to clean leading.

What is a good taper crimp on 452 boolits? case wall is approx .012, so that's .452 + .024 = .474, but people report crimping to .468-.471. That means I am squishing the boolit a bit? Crimp as little as possible to get the round to chamber, take the flare out of the case. I crimp to .470-.471 most of the time.
OAL with the lee 230RNTL seems to be right at 1.260 Does that make sense?

Thanks

Good luck on your next round of reloads.

[62chevy]

Make some dummy rounds and save your self some aggravation. If .474 will chamber and not swag the boolit then you are good. 473 is what Lyman 49 Edition says is the max but like I said if larger will chamber with the pluck test then go for it, every gun is different.

[kryogen]

will have to pluck test. will have to wait for the taper crimp die also.
Or just knock off the ring on my factory crimp die? no clue how hard this is to do. And I like the FCD for jacketed.

[OverMax]

Get yourself one of these and never have to worry about (leading) anymore.

Lewis lead remover tool.

FWIW: Changing your powder may also be a consideration. The powder your now using sounds to me like it may be flame cutting your bullets base due to a powder recipe that may be a issue. >a little to Hot perhaps.

[RobS]

will have to pluck test. will have to wait for the taper crimp die also.
Or just knock off the ring on my factory crimp die? no clue how hard this is to do. And I like the FCD for jacketed.

The FCD is solving a problem that should never exist. Post-sizing a loaded round if needed means the round wasn't quite right up to that point IMO. You can take the ring out of the die by placing a 44mag or anything that will catch the lip of the carbide ring from the top (place the empty case in from the top of the die like you would if you are loading a revolver cylinder). You could also use a flat washer of the right size too I suppose. The next important thing to do is use heat from a torch to help loosen the adhesive that is used on the die. Once cherry hot on the mouth of the die, or nearly so, drop the brass in the top of the die and then take a flat punch that fits solid on the brass along with one solid pop with the hammer/punch and the ring should come out.

Then again, it sounds like you have a plain taper crimp die on it's way so maybe no need at all to take the carbide ring out. I use the dies to de-glock range brass that I pickup, especially 40 S&W so they do have some benefit every once in a while I suppose. In the mean time you could run all your rounds twice though your current die.

1. just the seating part of your current die: adjust the seating stem down enough so the die doesn't crimp
2. and then come back a second time and crimp the brass: adjust the seating stem all the way up or even out then adjust the die to put on the crimp you need.

[RobS]

Also, if you like the way your current FCD works then you could buy a Lee 45 ACP powder/expanding die, take the parts out and put the crimping ring from the FCD in it and then put in the turn down knob so you can adjust the crimp.

https://fsreloading.com/lee-precision-powder-through-expanding-die-45-a-90585.html
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/339390/lee-powder-through-expander-die-45-acp

[kryogen]

I need to see if the fcd swages the boolit down or not. Need to try that first.
If it does keep my boolit at .452 then I am good to go and I don't even need to bother removing the ring I guess. Will try it.

[RobS]

I need to see if the fcd swages the boolit down or not. Need to try that first.
If it does keep my boolit at .452 then I am good to go and I don't even need to bother removing the ring I guess. Will try it.

Good luck on this one. So do you have the FCD already???

[kryogen]

Yes that is why. Would save me buying another die. And if it swages i can just knock the ring off. But i like the fcd for jacketed ammo to ensure 100 percent feed.... So i might not want to destroy it

[RobS]

Yes that is why. Would save me buying another die. And if it swages i can just knock the ring off. But i like the fcd for jacketed ammo to ensure 100 percent feed.... So i might not want to destroy it

Never had a sized .452 boolit not chamber unless I seated it to an incorrect depth let alone a jacketed not chamber. Never once was a failure to chamber because of the outside diameter of the finished round being too big when I had a consistently sized boolit/bullet i.e. .451-.452 etc. I don't see a need to have a carbide ring swage a boolit/bullet in a post crimp operation unless a person was loading unsized boolits such as tumble lube (still going to swage the boolit and likely too small) or with some mixed brass with thicker walls while loading jacketed bullets which is less common but can be a problem with really finicky firearm barrels with really tight chambers.
I've not seen this very often with 45 ACP or 40 S&W but more so with 9mm.

[kryogen]

so I should just knock the ring off and save 30$ I guess. Will try tonight.

[kryogen]

Ok more info:

The lee 230 RNTL 2R boolit fits nicely at 1.260

Inserting the .452 boolit without crimping at the same time completely eliminated the powdercoat/lead shaving which I believe was my issue with 9mm also.
I believe that I am flaring too much though, will have to reduce flaring a bit because I think that I will be damaging cases flaring that much.

Crimping with the FCD works, but it ends up swaging my boolit back to .451. So, I will keep the FCD for jacketed, and I will buy a taper crimp die for lead.
I tried it this time with the bullet die, but just doing it in 2 operations, one to seat, and then one to crimp. Double the trouble, but I just wanted to test it. It works, they pass the plunk test (above .472 doesnt feed reliably) and don't shave. They get swaged a bit (maybe .0005) just from the insertion into the case though, so they are more like .452 before, and .4515 after pulling. Will test, and if they lead, I'll enlarge the sizer to .4525 to get .452 once inserted.

So, I have 11 nice rounds to try at the range next time, and test for leading, before I do more.

Another issue I have is that my mold drops at .4515. So, either I enlarge the mold cavities, or I powdercoat (which I did for my testing anyway. When pced, they end up at .454 so no issues from there, I resize to whatever I want).

Or, maybe a good boolit cast at .4515, not resized at all, and just TL with recluse, and loaded without shaving the lube off like I probably did, maybe they wouldnt lead. Could try also.

ESPCing is nice, but it's just much longer to do, with the separate handling of all the boolits. To prevent flash I shoot on a board with nails, and then I transfer with tweezers (touching only the ogive of the boolit, to keep a uniform coat on the grooves) on non stick foil. That way I get 100% coverage with 0 flash.

Anyone has anything to add?

[prs]

Now that is flat out silly.
I have slugged three Ruger Vaqueros in 45 Colt and three Ruger SR1911 45ACP and all 6 barrels are right on at .451 as close as this old country boy can measure.

prs

[RobS]

Ok more info:

The lee 230 RNTL 2R boolit fits nicely at 1.260

Inserting the .452 boolit without crimping at the same time completely eliminated the powdercoat/lead shaving which I believe was my issue with 9mm also.
I believe that I am flaring too much though, will have to reduce flaring a bit because I think that I will be damaging cases flaring that much.

Crimping with the FCD works, but it ends up swaging my boolit back to .451. So, I will keep the FCD for jacketed, and I will buy a taper crimp die for lead. As I mentioned you can buy the Lee 45 ACP powder through die and swap the internals with the FCD. The next option is to buy a Taper crimp die of whatever manufacture however the adjustment isn't as easy as the above setup.
I tried it this time with the bullet die, but just doing it in 2 operations, one to seat, and then one to crimp. Double the trouble, but I just wanted to test it. It works, they pass the plunk test (above .472 doesnt feed reliably) and don't shave. They get swaged a bit (maybe .0005) just from the insertion into the case though, so they are more like .452 before, and .4515 after pulling. Will test, and if they lead, I'll enlarge the sizer to .4525 to get .452 once inserted.

So, I have 11 nice rounds to try at the range next time, and test for leading, before I do more.

Another issue I have is that my mold drops at .4515. So, either I enlarge the mold cavities, or I powdercoat (which I did for my testing anyway. When pced, they end up at .454 so no issues from there, I resize to whatever I want). The case can swage a softer boolit unless you have an expander that will expand with a .450-.451 spud (for a .452 diameter boolit) to the depth of the base being seated in the case. As you noted you can also try a larger diameter boolit. From there you could try another option which is to use a tougher/harder boolit to withstand the case swage.

Or, maybe a good boolit cast at .4515, not resized at all, and just TL with recluse, and loaded without shaving the lube off like I probably did, maybe they wouldnt lead. Could try also. You could try this but with you using a softer boolit you will likely swage down your .4515 boolit upon seating unless you try the above I mentioned with an expander die or tougher/harder boolit. Laping your mold so it drops at a larger diameter is a very viable option if you are going to try and just TL. Before lapping you could also try as Larry suggested using some tin in your alloy as this often times gives better fillout of the mold resulting in a slightly larger diameter boolit.

ESPCing is nice, but it's just much longer to do, with the separate handling of all the boolits. To prevent flash I shoot on a board with nails, and then I transfer with tweezers (touching only the ogive of the boolit, to keep a uniform coat on the grooves) on non stick foil. That way I get 100% coverage with 0 flash.

Anyone has anything to add?

I agree that PCing can take longer unless you have a dedicated setup etc. without having to transfer each boolit which for me I'm not going to do nor am I going to by a PC spray gun to not be able to do the things I want with heat treated boolits. Additionally the extra layer of coating also changes the ogive of my boolits from my custom molds so they have to be seated deeper to fit in my firearms. This isn't a big deal in some of my loading but in others it's not good at all. No free lunch I suppose.

[kryogen]

well unless you PC, or you use a star sizer, you are tumble lubing for 45?

What I cant wait to use is hi-tek.
It's like tumble lubing, it's quick, but it's a cooked coating, you can coat thousands an hour, they dont stick, they dont lead.

[RobS]

Yep seen hi-tek and it looks fine for anything that doesn't need a heat treated boolit and is similar to the PC piglet method. I'm a lubesizer person as of now and don't see myself changing for the heat treated stuff but maybe a change for lower pressure, non heat treated boolits does interest me a bit. If I find that my current homemade traditional lube works as well in the summer heat as is does in the cold winter then I may just be set the way I am. I have a forum member that will be playing around with the homemade lube in the hot, humid Florida climate.