Which "big bore"rifle?

[zipdog]

OK, guys. This should stir the pot a little.

I have been casting for and shooting handguns, and now I am starting to get the itch to try casting for a long gun. I have in mind something in .45-90, .45-120, .405 Winchester, etc. I like to make BIG holes.

Is there any reasonably priced lever gun or single shot in one of these calibers? I've done a little research on Shiloh Sharps, Pedersoli (Cimarron), Uberti. What's worth having?

Rusty

[StrawHat]

I have two Pedersoli rolling blocks.

One has the 26" barrel, the other has an 18" barrel.

The shorter barreled gun is going to have a new 26" barrel installed and chambered for the 50-70.

I have shot a lot of guns in a lot of calibers.

In reality, they are all fairly similar. By that I mean unless you are a truly excellent shot, they will all outshoot you.

I personally prefer the rolling block for a single shot and the 45-70 is still the king.

I do have an 1895 Winchester in 405 and trapdoor in 50-70 but more often than not, I grab the rolling block when I head to the range.

Good Luck.

[scb]

Unless your looking to compete in Black Powder shoots my choice would be a Ruger #1

[13Echo]

Going to depend on your defintion of "reasonably priced" and what you want to do with it. A Handy Rifle would be the cheap rifle and many have reported them to be good shooters. For a strong, modern action with a modern stock design get the Ruger. For nostalgia and BPCR competition a Rolling Block or 1874 Sharps (C. Sharps, Shiloh Sharps, Pedersoli all good). For a compromise still useable for competition a High Wall. The 45-70 is still the best single choice of cartridges but there is no reason not to get a 45-90, or 50-70, 405, etc. Just depends on what you intend to do with the rifle - hunting, silhouette, intermediate and long range targets (Creedmoor), plinking.

Jerry Liles

[Marlin Junky]

Going to depend on your defintion of "reasonably priced" and what you want to do with it. A Handy Rifle would be the cheap rifle and many have reported them to be good shooters. For a strong, modern action with a modern stock design get the Ruger. For nostalgia and BPCR competition a Rolling Block or 1874 Sharps (C. Sharps, Shiloh Sharps, Pedersoli all good). For a compromise still useable for competition a High Wall. The 45-70 is still the best single choice of cartridges but there is no reason not to get a 45-90, or 50-70, 405, etc. Just depends on what you intend to do with the rifle - hunting, silhouette, intermediate and long range targets (Creedmoor), plinking.

Jerry Liles

Why are you calling the High Wall a compromise?

MJ

[HollandNut]

I wanted a C. Sharps when they first came out at around $800.00 , but the waiting list was six months , figgered I'd wait , now they're 3-4 times that with a several year wait , or so I hear ..

I have had a safe full of big bore No.1's , they are a good choice IMO ..

But again all depends on the end use ..

[pa_guns]

Hi

Depends on your definition of "big bore". You can start at the 50-90 Sharps and go up from there ...:mrgreen:

Bob

[13Echo]

The High Wall is not a "compromise rifle" as far as being a fine shooting, and handsome rifle. It is a bit of a compromise in looks between the more traditional buffalo rifle Big Hammer Sharps and the Hammerless, more modern and very sleak Ruger. I certainly didn't mean to demean the High Wall which I covet and will have some day.

Jerry Liles

[wills]

Do not forget the rolling block
http://www.lonestarrifle.com/

[kodiak1]

500 Jeffries in a Ruger #1 will make a big hole and will give you something to contemplate on the other end also.
Have 4 Sharps Rifles 40-90 SBN, 2-45-70, 45-100 and a 50-90 They are a ton of fun to shoot.
Ken.

[floodgate]

There's a 'cat name of Bill Goodman (406) 587-3131, or <www.shiloh-ballard.com> who - I believe - maintains a standing order with Shiloh (and other BPCR makers) to run "extras" for him; as a result, he usually has quite a variety of them to choose from, available from stock. Maybe not the specific caliber and style you're looking for, but available right now. I don't know how his prices compare, but he's been in business for many years and I've never heard any complaints; has anyone here bought from him?

Fg

[hydraulic]

I notice at the gun shows that when a sharps replica shows up it is usually a .45-90, .45-100 or .50 something. Those who bought them new shot them a few times and got rid of them. If you can shoot a compressed charge of 70 grs of 2f behind a .457 - 500 gr. bullet comfortably, then by all means move on up to larger calibres.

[Jon K]

I have bought from Bill Goodman. He is a shooter and a good guy to deal with. He is currently charging $200 over the actual cost for a Shiloh. Check out his wesite, he explains his charges and he has a list of what is on hand and on order w/due delivery date. Honest guy and stands behind what he sells.
If you don't want the wait ordering from Shiloh, Bill Goodman is the way to go.
He also has a lot of antique guns.

http://www.shiloh-ballard.com/shiloh_sharps_rifles_for_sale.htm

Jon

[Frank46]

Joe Salter has a ruger #1 that has been rebarrelled with a heavy octagon bbl about 30" long in 45/70 caliber. No sights funished but has scope blocks mounted on the bbl. Left hand side of the receiver appears to have been drilled and tapped
for what appears to be a sight base in two different elevations and just might accept a redfield international rear sight. Thing he wants about $800 for it. Looks to be in nice shape and is supposed to have an excellent bore. This just might be cheaper than buying a #1 for the action and having it rebarrelled. Can't go wrong with the 45/70. Oh yeah, supposed to have an aftermarket trigger installed, but no mention of what mfgr. Just a thought if anyone is interested. Frank

[Guido4198]

Your choice of which rifle will most likely be determined by your budget. All those mentioned are fine, and will allow you to enjoy "Big Bore" rifle shooting. My comment is that starting out...you select 45/70 as your cartridge and then choose the rifle. It's the easiest to learn to shoot and load for. Best supply of components. Best selection of rifles. Best offering of very mild loads...but capable of being loaded up to severe levels in the right rifle. There are some advantages to those more powerful rounds, under select circumstances...but few will experience the real NEED for them. Start with the 45/70..if you ever get to the point where you've wrung out all the power, range, and flexibility offered by that cartridge and just have to get "bigger"...they're out there.
Cheers,
Don

[HEAD0001]

Try the Buffalo Classic in 45-70. If you want to spend a little more then go to a Browning Highwall. Tom.

[jack19512]

Try the Buffalo Classic in 45-70.




+1

I have the B/C and like it a lot.

[zipdog]

There are several H&R Buffalo Classics on Gunsamerica, one supposedly NIB for $349.
Is this a good deal? Also, is it correct to assume that smokeless powder can be used with these?

[wills]

There are several H&R Buffalo Classics on Gunsamerica, one supposedly NIB for $349.
Is this a good deal? Also, is it correct to assume that smokeless powder can be used with these?

thats what they are intended for

its the handi rifle, which is built in a bunch of smokeless calibers

[405]

Yes on using Goodman. He had an existing order, exactly what I wanted, to be completed within a couple of months. That was quite a few years ago and the Shilohs were about half the current price. But no different on wait time then and now if you ordered..... years! Good guy to deal with.

Also, hit the gunshows. Shiloh Sharps and C Sharps show up once in a while. Also, if a Ballard (Wyo) shows up don't overlook them. If you have no interest in re-sale or used guns holding value and just want a shooter then by all means get an Italian. They do shoot well but don't hold value like the US guns.

Another possibility is finding a beater Rolling Block and rebarreling to exact specs and desired caliber, twist, cartridge, etc. Hard to beat the basic 45-70. The only thing with the RBs is that you'll need to find a gunsmith that can modify the extractor, etc. when rebarreling and changing cals/cartridges.

[zipdog]

Thanks for all the good info, guys, but don't stop now. The Shilohs, C. Sharps, etc. are a little too rich for my blood. I'm looking for a less expensive entry into this venture to see if it's for me. Maybe one of the finer arms will come into play later.

[John-n-va]

1874 Sharps in 45-90. We were out three weekends ago and he wanted to shoot my #1 Shiloh Sharps. We set a 55 gal drum out in a field at a measured 600 yds and not knowing where to set my midrange sight I walked the rounds in like you do with artillery. The forth shot I "rung" the barrel. Every shot after that hit the barrel and he was having a ball. Granted, 600 yds on a 55 gal. drum isn't much of a test for a Shiloh 45-90 but my buddy was really impressed and said he wanted one. When I told him there was a 2 year wait he decided to get an Armi Sport.

We tried his new Sharps on the same drum last weekend and he was soon punching holes just as well as the Shiloh. Fit and finish is not up to snuff with the Shiloh but don't see any real difference in performance. You can get it right now and is at least $1000 cheaper. If you want a Shiloh down the road you can wait and sell the Armi Sport and get your money back.

I like the 45-90. My favorite load is 79 gr. FFg which is above the maximum you can get in a 45-70 case yet mild enough in recoil to make it comfortable to shoot all day. If I need a little more push I can go all the way to 90 gr. or more to really reach out and touch something. I couldn't see getting a 45-70 and then always wondering what a little more power would do. Thats just my opinion.

[EDK]

Get a 45/70, preferably a Marlin 1895 Cowboy or a Ruger #1 or #3. Nice looking, strong guns and available used. You can load them until your shoulders say NO!!!! The, if you are still into the big bores, you can go as high end as your finances permit on a single shot. The Marlins will serve your children..I have a pair of the 1895 Cowboys and every time I use them, I wonder why I don't use them more.

You can find used import SHARPS replicas. But if you've done your homework on them, you've seen enough horror stories to be careful. I have a 50/90 SHILOH SHARPS Long Range Express, so I'm a bit prejudiced. Go over to shilohrifle.com/forums and get enlightened further.

:cbpour: :redneck:

[Rafe Covington]

It is not an original or a traditional single shot. I had MGM build me a .50-90 barrel 28 in. long for my encore rifle. It shoots well with blackpowder or smokeless. If you want to shoot in blackpowder matches than this is a bad idea. I already had a encore frame so getting a barrel was a good idea for me, may not be a good one for you. Just my two cents worth.:drinks:

[bearcove]

T/C ENCORE 45-70. Strong gun, if you aren't looking for something "traditional". You can basically load it up like a 458 then change barrels and shoot 22 hornets. Beware it is addictive!

[zipdog]

I see votes for .45-70 and .45-90, with .45-70 seeming to have the edge on number of recommendations. I have never shot either, and I don't know why I homed in on .45-90, other that it seemed like a good compromise between the .45-70 and the real butt kickers. I know recoil is a subjective thing, and the only points of reference I have are 12 ga shotguns, .270 Win (Mod 70), .30-06 ('03-A3 sporter), and .458 Win magnum in a Ruger #1. To me, the .458 was brutal and I refused to shoot it again after 3 rounds. Is the .45-90 going to be in the .458 category recoil wise? Can the .45-90 be loaded to a respectable level without causing undue pain? I don't want to buy something and wish I had bought something else. But, then again, that's part of the fun of this hobby, isn't it? I've seen some winchester 1885 high walls on GA that seem to be fairly reasonable. I haven't seen a Sharps that even approaches what I would consider reasonable (for me) in price.

Rusty

[OldBob]

Another vote for the Buffalo Classic here, the price is very reasonable and I haven't yet heard of anybody having one that won't shoot well. I suspect mine is far more capable than I am :mrgreen: The 45-70 can be loaded from pussycat to tiger loads, give it a try and them if you find full house loads too mild go to a "bigger" caliber. I'm not particularily recoil sensitive and a heavy load w/ a 500 grain bullet in these is about enough for me to shoot off a bench. By the way, while you are checking out these fine old calibers, don't neglect to give black powder loads a try, a whole 'nother experience and a lot of fun.

[13Echo]

If you are like most people a 45-70 is the ideal first big bore. It is easy to load with black or smokeless and is powerful enough for anything on the continent and is a wonderful BPCR silhouette or target cartridge. You can't go wrong. Now, having said that, I shoot a 45-90 Sharps and it is a hoot with black powder. Recoil with a 530gr bullet and 90 to 95 grs FFg will indeed get your attention but nothing like a 458. The recoil is more of a firm, fast shove rather than a sharp jolt. I think it is more pleasant to shoot than an '06 (of course the rifle weighs 12lbs which helps). None-the-less recoil effects are cumulative and the full house -90 will get to you before the -70. This can make a difference if shooting a match. So, if you want to be able to load with smokeless get a 45-70. If you want the most "practical" cartridge, get a 45-70. If you don't mind the extra cost for cases, aren't concerned about smokeless, don't mind a bit more (but not debilitating) recoil then, why not a 45-90? Did I mention that my best load for my 45-90 is sort of a super 45-70 with a mere 80grs of powder? You don't have to load it full throttle all the time. Still, my recommendation is a 45-70.

Jerry Liles

[zipdog]

Am I to infer that the .45-90 cannot be loaded with smokeless? One reason I'm strongly considering -90 is that there is a guy on GA who has a NIB Winchester 1885 LTD Creedmore with Soule-type sights, 34" Badger barrel, color-case receiver, for $1950. He also has a couple of the same with 30" Badger and no sights, although he hasn't given me a price yet. There's at least one NIB Winchester 1885 for $1150.
I saw a lightly used Browning 1885 .45-70 at a gunshow this weekend, but there was no tang on the receiver, a negative as far as I'm concerned. Plus, the price was $1075.

[zipdog]

Get a 45/70, preferably a Marlin 1895 Cowboy :redneck:

There are several of these on GunBroker. Is $600 too much for NIB?

[AkMike]

Include a 577 Snider if you want a 'cheap' BP rifle. It'll make a large hole at shorter ranges. It's better IMO to look for a 5 groove barrel rather than the 3 groove because of the faster twist rifling. Often you'll see them at the $500 area.

[John-n-va]

My 12 lb. Shiloh with a 32" barrel is very pleasant to shoot. Nowhere near the recoil of a 12 gauge. I feel like the recoil is somewhat close to my M1 garand which is a 30-06 of course. My best load of 79 grs. with a 536 gr. postell is milder yet.

I still fail to see the logic of choosing a 45-70 over a 45-90. I can load my 90 with 65 or 70 grs. of powder and still get some powder compression which will duplicate a 70 in ballistics. Accuracy might not be quite up to par due to less compression of the powder but that all depends on what your particular rifle likes anyway. Why get the 4cyl. when you can get the V6 for the same money? Tune the V6 up for more power or detune it for less......the 4 cyl. is stuck at wide open. Again, that just my opinion!

[zipdog]

Why get the 4cyl. when you can get the V6 for the same money? Tune the V6 up for more power or detune it for less......the 4 cyl. is stuck at wide open. Again, that just my opinion!

John, that was kind of my rationale. However, I am not interested in getting into black powder. If I can't load smokeless, I ain't interested.

[13Echo]

I think the 45-90 is a great cartridge. It is what I shoot. However by all reports I've seen it is not a cartridge that is easily loaded with smokeless with good results. With blackpowder it is an excellent round. What John said has merit but most shooters will still find the 45-70 easier to load with black or smokeless. If you plan to shoot long range (1000yds) the the 90 may be what you want. There is a reason the 45-70 is the most popular cartridge for black powder silhouette.

Jerry Liles

[John-n-va]

I misunderstood. I wouldn't even consider smokeless in a 45-90. Not trying to second guess you Zip, but if all you want to do is shoot long range smokeless, then why even think about using cartridges designed 135 years ago for the holy black. There are many "modern" cartridges that will do a better job.

I think you are missing out on a lot of fun though. I absolutely love stuffing large amounts of FFg behind a great big ole lead bullet and touching her off with huge billows of flame and smoke. Gets everyone's attention at the range. Then theres hitting a target at 600 yards with 1874 technology and loads I made myself.

I have been reloading and shooting for 50 years and BPCR's are, without a doubt, the most fun I have ever had. Try BLACK, you might not go back.:-D

Oh, by the way, theres a reason Shiloh Sharps cost a lot and have a 2 year waiting list!

[zipdog]

Thanks again, fellas. I didn't mean to sound so adamantly negative about black powder...who knows, I might try it. I'm looking at a .45-90 Winchester High Walls that I am tempted to buy just because it's so purty to look at. If it's just a matter of loading a BP substitute, that's one thing, but reading about all the patches, wads, lubes, etc. gave me the impression that it's more complicated than I thought.

Rusty

[John-n-va]

The only things you really need to do different is drop tube and compress the charge. The wad is simply a .030 or .060 card which is readily available from Buffalo Arms. You will need to lube no matter what powder you use. The only thing really different from smokeless is that you MUST fill the case which is not a problem with black. Probably want to use a lead/tin alloy also although lots of guys on here use straight WW's with good results. I like to alloy 20/1 simply because the hardness is uniform batch to batch. Besides, that will give you somewhere to use those stick-on wheel weights you have been saving!

Try it, its a blast! Clean-up is quick and simple with 2 wet patches and several dry patches and a patch coated with Ballistrol to finish off. Takes me 5 minutes to clean my Sharps after a long shooting session.

Its not complicated.....ITS FUN!!!!

[zipdog]

I'm beginning to lean toward the .45-70 so I can use black or smokeless. Those .45-90 Winchesters sure are purty, though.

Thanks, John. Where are you in VA? I'm originally from Martinsville, went to Va Tech.

Rusty

[pa_guns]

I'm beginning to lean toward the .45-70 so I can use black or smokeless. .....

Hi

Anything bigger than 45-70 is actually going to be more of a problem if you want to go for smokeless. Black powder is really the only way to go for the real big cartridges.

Bob

[John-n-va]

up north close to DC.

Ain't no way in this world I would dirty my Sharps with that new fangled "white powder"! Lots of guys say its just a fad and will soon pass and I agree!

[zipdog]

Lots of guys say its just a fad and will soon pass and I agree!

You might be right, but I hear it's starting to catch on in come circles.

[John-n-va]

Get ya one of those Armi Sport Sharps in 45-70 to get your feet wet with black powder. My friends is a good looking rifle and it shoots just great. While you are shootin' that with black and white powder you can put your order in for a Shiloh Sharps in 45 whatever you want and when you get that you will, by then, know what I mean about not ever wanting to "dirty" it with smokeless.

I can't put into words how much satisfaction you get loading and shooting black.....the roar, the smoke, the smell..........

My friend is the farm manager on a large cattle farm and we have been searching for somewhere we can shoot 1000 yds. We have located a spot and will be "trimming' a few trees to get a clear shot far into another field! I can't wait! Probably gonna have to buy another sight though. I have an MVA mid range vernier and according to my calculations will only be able to get about 750 yards of elevation. Thinking about a long range soule this time. You think the rifles are expensive, take a look at the MVA website. They are worth every penny!

[zipdog]

There was a decent looking Pedersoli 1874 Sharps on GB that just ended with no bids...starting bid $1k. Had checkering and a Soule-type (Pedersoli Creedmore 405) sight. What do you guys think about Pedersoli, C. Sharps, Uberti, etc.

[zipdog]

Get ya one of those Armi Sport Sharps in 45-70 to get your feet wet with black powder. My friends is a good looking rifle and it shoots just great.

What's a source for Armi Sport?

[John-n-va]

Taylors and Co. Inc.

[wills]

take a look at buffalo arms, Dave Guillo carries several sights http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,237.html

[zipdog]

What are the pros/cons of the Sharps 1874/1875 actions?

[waksupi]

take a look at buffalo arms, Dave Guillo carries several sights http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,237.html

come to think of it, Dave generally has some used rifles on his rack. You may want to give him a call, and ask. Everyone working there knows thier stuff.

[45-70marlin]

Hey Zip, I have a no.1 ruger in 45-70. I love the old 45-70gov. I think you will too. I have used many diffrent cast bullets in it and all worked great. here is a site I posted on another thread here I think you will enjoy. http://home.earthlink.net/~sharpsshtr/CritterPhotos/SandyHook/SandyHook.html By the way Zip, I live about 100 miles from you in the upstate.

[waksupi]

Pedersoli .45-70, 20 shots. Lots of operator error involved. 100 yards.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/waksupi/Untitled-45-70target.jpg

[Don McDowell]

There was a decent looking Pedersoli 1874 Sharps on GB that just ended with no bids...starting bid $1k. Had checkering and a Soule-type (Pedersoli Creedmore 405) sight. What do you guys think about Pedersoli, C. Sharps, Uberti, etc.

You might want to go take a look at CSharps Arms web site. They have a list of rifles available for immediate purchase. If there's nothing there that suits you they're delivering in about 60-90 days. I just took delivery of a 75 model sharps that was about 30 days from order to delivery.
You can get one of the 1875 models from CSA with sights for about the same money as a Pedersolli, and you'll have something with lasting value.

[Don McDowell]

Here's an example of what can happen. Working on some loads for the new 75 in 45-70 last week. Range to target 270 yds. Load consisted of 68 grs of goex Cartridge, RCBS 82084 bullet cast from 20-1 and lubed with sagebrush alox, .030 fiber wad, stuffed into remington pimp (nickel cases) and sparked with winchester primers.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/0908remcase.jpg

[zipdog]

Get ya one of those Armi Sport Sharps in 45-70 to get your feet wet with black powder. !

Is $785 a decent price for one of these...no sights to speak of?

[Boz330]

Who makes the Armi Sports? If it is IAB (Pedretti Bros?) I'd be very leery. Several of my buddies got a really cheap price on IABs ($265). The problems are to numerous to list here.
IMHO I think you are better off saving a little and getting a good one to start.

Bob

[Don McDowell]

Is $785 a decent price for one of these...no sights to speak of?

If its' brand new still in the box , well maybe. But be sure and pickup a bottle of loctite on your way home on account of you're going to have to loctite most of the screws in the lock and trigger to keep the thing from falling apart. Also if you plan on shooting it much you best call Taylors and get them to send you an extra firing pin and a sear. Best to fit that new sear when it comes as it'll take about 2 hours of careful stoning to get it to working proper.
Carry both the firing pin and the sear in your shooting bag along with a set of tools to dismantle the thing when it breaks.
Been there done that. Ordered a C Sharps left the spaghetti bender go to the Mrs for a wall decoration.

[zipdog]

Thanks, Don....good advice. whenever I have tried to buy cheap, a friend and I have a saying: "This is going to be one of those deals", meaning that I will buy the good one after throwing away $ on the crap.

Rusty

[Don McDowell]

Rusty , I should point out that the barrel on my taylors is a good one. But the rest of it takes some working on, and given the cost......:roll:.
With the way they've devalued the dollar in Europe there's just no sense in buying one of the Italians when the C Sharps are so readily available, and Shilohs really aren't all that hard to come by. Once in a while Shiloh will have one with no home to go to in the factory.
Keeping an eyeball on the gun tradin web sites will turn up several pretty good deals on American made rifles.

Save your pennies and do it right the first time, you'll be glad you did.