Slugged throats, which size die?

[War Eagle]

Been playing with a Ruger Redhawk for a little bit. Started with a Lee .430" push through and Alox. Shot that a lot but noticed my sized boolits slipped through my cylinder with little if any resistance. Upgraded to a Saeco and bought a .431" die. Shot a lot but noticed my boolits are still sliding right through my cylinder with no resistance.

Finally slugged my throats...yikes. 2 were .433" and 4 were about .4335".

Been trying to run down a custom die and finally found a source...but I can't make my mind up on which size to get, a .433" or a .434". Any suggestions?

[9.3X62AL]

Wow. I've seen a BUNCH of S&W Model 29 variants with throats that big, but to date no Rugers of that width.

Before launching into a LOT of expense.......how does the revolver shoot in its present condition with your .430" or .431" slugs? If accuracy is present and no bore leading occurs, I would be prone to leave well-enough alone. Reasons for this non-action are......

What is groove diameter of barrel? If at .429", the forcing cone might not be properly tapered (a la Taylor specs/11*) to smoothly transition a bullet running .004"-.005" over groove diameter. You could be setting yourself up for further gunsmithing to adapt your barrel to its new feeding regimen.

You will likely need new expander spud(s) for your die set, and some seater die bodies might not admit a cartridge with .434" bullet seated into a case mouth. Most die sets "assume" use of jacketed bullets with their internal dimensioning, and in 44 caliber that is a .429"-.430" spec.

What I'm saying is.......if the present system runs well, don't "out-cute" yourself with minuteae that might not matter or could run you into further expense and specialization.

[DougGuy]

A lot of the .44 caliber molds won't drop any larger than .432" and many people shoot that for the Marlin rifles too. If you get a Lee die you can hone it out a little at a time until your boolit will go in the tightest throat with a drag fit.

I have a .432" Lee that was custom made for Ranch Dog, got it from James Sage Outdoors on ebay, it was the last one he had, and as far as I know Lee is not taking on any custom work at this time.

The sizing band is pretty narrow in those, and a home made hone that uses a slot in the end of a wooden dowel in a drill with 2 pieces of abrasive paper is about all that is needed to gradually open that die up some. You could start with some 180 grit, hone a TINY bit then polish with 320 and then 400, then try the boolit for size in the throats.

As an after thought, you may even find those two tight throats shoot to a different point of aim than the others. How Ruger used to ream cylinders was with a gang reamer that had 3 cutters in it, they would ream 3 holes, pick the reamer chuck up and turn it one hole, then ream 3 more, so if they had a worn reamer in there with two newer ones, and it cut two holes side by side with each other, that is as good explanation as I can give as to why your cylinder has uneven throats in it. My SBH was the same way, it had two at .432" and 4 that were much smaller. I ended up taking them all out to match the largest ones, then sizing the boolits to .432" with an even drag fit into all 6 throats. BIGTIME improvement in groups when they are all the same size. Mine were cut in half, best this gun has EVER shot.

Since you are stuck with the larger throats, the best way to remedy the situation without replacing a cylinder is to make them all match, then size the boolits by enlarging the .430 die you already have, until you get a drag fit out of each throat. Until the cylinder is corrected, you can't really tell what size sizer you will need.

If you need help with the cylinder, I do several Ruger cylinders per week in .44 and .45 caliber, I would be glad to help if I can, send me a PM.

Edit: Also, as 9.3X62AL mentioned, you might have to get an expander sized larger as well..

[War Eagle]

9.3x62AL, with j-words it shot remarkably well...at least with 210gr Gold Dots and a full charge of 2400. Those are the only jacketed I ever ran out of it though. With cast I can't do any better than about 6-8" at 25 yards...compared to about 2" with jacketed.

The bore slugs within spec, right at .429" or maybe just a smidge over...but nothing like the cylinders.

DougGuy, on the mould and drop size, that is part of what started me on this. I picked up a Lee 310gr mould and the accuracy just wasn't there. That mold would not drop over .430" with COWW. I knew I needed a bigger mold and picked up an RCBS 250-K. It drops at .434" consistently with COWW...I was so tickled I bought another of the same mould from the same distributor...and hot dang if it doesn't drop the same size.

I have been using my sizer and LBT blue soft but after slugging my throats I have been contemplating just doing a little LLA coat and seeing how they shoot as cast. That would also let me test the loading die tolerances that AL brought up and see if it does any better accuracy wise. The concern over the forcing cone is still there however since it is unaltered factory spec.

[DougGuy]

Well, don't know if you have seen the still open group buy for the Lee 310 improved? This is the 310-RF boolit with a little better crimp grooves than the (as 44man calls it) "chicken scratch" grooves, and you can order the mold .434" in 2 cav for $55. I have my name on the list but haven't paid for mine yet, I think you can still get on it if you want on it.

I hear ya on the forcing cone too, and you shooting a K type boolit, it will wipe part of the driving band right off the boolit if the cylinder/bore lockup isn't dead on perfect too. 11° cone and the smooth sides of the Lee 310 are a match meant for one another, they work very well together, mine is a nice long 11° cone that works great. I had a little spitting with the factory cone which was pretty short, and had some tool marks still in it.

This is what I'm working with now:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/44%20Magnum/DSC01739_zps53352b7c.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/44%20Magnum/DSC01739_zps53352b7c.jpg.html)

[WALLNUTT]

Do you also do forcing cones?

[DougGuy]

No FFL here, and the local shops don't want to take in a revolver for somebody else to work on.

[MtGun44]

Sounds like my older SBH. I got an oversized Keith 429421 clone and it worked
great. The difference of .0005 (how are you measuring?) is not very important,
but a good 11 degree forcing cone - or at minimum one that is accurately concentric
to the bore will help a lot if yours is not concentric or short and rough.

These guns are made for j-bullets which are pretty tolerant of poor fits and rough
short forcing cones. Our handmade beauties are much less tolerant. But when
you get it right, the work very well indeed.

You are lucky to find the large RCBS molds - that is a superb design, and LBT soft
blue has worked well for me.

Bill

[WALLNUTT]

Ahh Cylinder(a part) is different than the gun?

[MtGun44]

Hmm? Yes, the cylinder is different than the gun . . . . . are you kidding or
maybe new to wheel guns or perhaps not a native English speaker? Not trying
to be rude, just trying to figure out an unusual comment.

Location info helps a lot.

Bill

[fecmech]

My old 3 screw Super has .433 size throats with .429 groove. I shot it for years with max mag loads of 296/429421 with minimal leading and good enough accuracy to shoot AA class Silhouette (ignorant of throat size at the time). That said when I backed off the throttle to shoot specials (I got older and less recoil tolerant) it leaded like crazy. I "Beagled" the mold and sized to .433 and all is right with the world. The mags are more accurate (sub 2"@50 yds) and specials are accurate and lead free.

[DougGuy]

Cylinder different from the gun? Yep. One of the laughable reasons they call these "sixguns" makes reference to each charge hole/chamber shooting differently than the one next to it, so you have six guns there.

Each variable in a revolver will have an effect on how it shoots. Revolver accuracy is to shoot all the boolits through the same hole, a process which is compounded by each set of variables. And variables come in sets because of the laws of physics. Meaning the change in one variable, directly affects how another variable acts on the whole chain of events known as shooting.

When you shoot a revolver, recoil impulses move the gun in the shooter's hands, and this movement affects where the boolit will strike. We call that point of impact, or POI for short. Slower shooting boolits stay in the barrel longer, lengthening the amount of time before the boolit leaves the muzzle, we call this dwell time or barrel time, which is different from lock time (the time it takes the hammer to follow it's arc to the firing pin, after the sear breaks).

All of this has a direct effect on how the gun shoots. So, now that we have introduced into discussion some of the forces exerted on the gun, what part does the cylinder play in this equation? The cylinder is a pressure chamber. It is a vessel just like an oxygen cylinder on a cutting torch set. It contains the pressures of ignition and guides the boolit from the case mouth to the forcing cone, at which point the forcing cone engages the boolit and guides it into the bore. The amount of restriction provided by the cylinder throats affects the pressure, which in turn affects recoil impulse, which in turn affects POI on the target.

For this reason, it is important to have the same amount of restriction per cylinder throat, i.e. the throat sizes to be even from one to another, so the amount of variable contributed by the cylinder throats is consistent from shot to shot. In so many words, the cylinder throats and the fitment of the boolits in the throats is just one variable in the whole equation, but the more consistent we can make this variable, the more the gun will shoot each shot to the same point of impact.

A loose fit for the boolit in the throat does not provide the same recoil impulse as one that fits tightly, so the gun will move differently in the shooter's hands, and neither of these throats will shoot to the same point of impact. You can shoot a group of 5 shots out of the same cylinder throat each time, then shoot another group of 5 shots out of a different cylinder throat on the same cylinder, and if one is loose and the other tight, you will have two separate groups on the target. Shooting the same two groups after a cylinder has been reamed and honed so all the throats are the same will put all 10 shots into the same group or much closer to it.

Let's take the myth out of the cylinder throat diameters, their fitment to the boolit to be fired, and the importance of taking the time and trouble to address any differences in the throats. If the boolit won't go into the front of the cylinder, the throats are too small for that boolit. If it won't go into each throat with the same amount of drag fit, then the throats will cause the gun to not shoot to the same POI every time. I have never seen a revolver that suffered from having the throats all evened out to the same diameter. Unless of course, that diameter was grossly oversize for the caliber, and yes I owned a Ruger convertible with .456" throats that shot horribly! Ruger replaced both cylinders with a pair that were beautifully throated to .4515" and very even all the way around. Should have kept that gun!

[War Eagle]

The difference of .0005 (how are you measuring?) is not very important,

I am using soft lead round balls tapped through each throat and measured with a Hornady micrometer.

So the choice between a .433" or .434" die won't be earth shattering here? I can probably have a .434" die in a week...been waiting on a backorder for the .433" for 2 weeks and still have no ECD.




but a good 11 degree forcing cone - or at minimum one that is accurately concentric to the bore will help a lot if yours is not concentric or short and rough.


Yep, that is something on my short list for this gun. Any suggestions on a smith for that one?

Thanks guys. I appreciate all the feedback on this.

[MtGun44]

Try .433, will not be much of an issue in a .4335 throat. You are trying to guide the
boolit straight as it exits the case. Half a thousandths extra clearance will not IMPROVE
accuracy, but is probably not going to have much of an adverse effect, either. May be
slightly suboptimal, but I wonder if you will be able to really see it on the target.

Hmm. Never saw a Hornady micrometer, but that doesn't mean they aren't out there.
Are you talking about a Hornady caliper, by any chance? Please, no offense intended,
but sometimes terms are used incorrectly, and I have no idea of you level of
experience with precision measurement. You could be a tool and die maker or
never have used a caliper or mic before yesterday, I have no way of knowing.
Trying to get a handle on how accurate these measurements are likely to be.
In reality, it is not easy for a new user to measure to .0005 with consistency.

Bill

[War Eagle]

Hmm. Never saw a Hornady micrometer, but that doesn't mean they aren't out there.
Are you talking about a Hornady caliper, by any chance? Please, no offense intended,
but sometimes terms are used incorrectly, and I have no idea of you level of
experience with precision measurement. You could be a tool and die maker or
never have used a caliper or mic before yesterday, I have no way of knowing.
Trying to get a handle on how accurate these measurements are likely to be.
In reality, it is not easy for a new user to measure to .0005 with consistency.

Bill


http://www.hornady.com/store/Micrometer-1-Each/

Am I a tool and die maker? No--I am an aluminum ship fitter by trade. :-)

While this particular mic doesn't have graduation marks down to the ten-thousandths of an inch, the thousandth marks are separated enough to make a fair guess. It may not be measured to exactly the ten-thousandth but when the line falls directly between two thousandth marks I am confident enough to call it 0.0005".

[DougGuy]

Gotta be careful with the mic, it's better than a caliper for sure but the first thing the anvil does is make a flat spot on each side of your ball/boolit when you mic them. Sneak up on them verrrrry gently when you mic them.

Aluminum ship fitting. What a concept. I done some of that myself! Along with an a**load of steel ship fitting. Then I had the sense to go on to pipe and leave the iron for the tin beaters..

[MtGun44]

Yes, totally agree on the "sneak up on the lead ball" with the mic!

Bill