Minie Bullet size???

[barrabruce]

O.k. my search foo is all gone on me.
I don't do black powder but interested in a strange way.

Helping a mate trying to get his musket/musketoon front stuffer shooting thing to work proper.

He has a lee mold improved Minnie 90476 58 cal Minnie thing which I'm cleaning up to try and cast properly.

His bore is @ 0.576" at the tightest bit a couple of inches down the bore. I feels like it gets bigger near the breech end.

His goove diameter is @ 0.581".

We are trying to make a sizer for it for the right diameter.

His lube is something like mutton fat /oil and something or other. Probably some smeltered down extinct animal liver or such.

What should one be looking at so as to diameter??

He is putting wood plugs up the hollow base and using pure lead with a cushion wad of some sort.
He uses ffg

Was the general idea with these things to get some sort of reasonable accuracy?
How accurate should be one expected to achieve 4" at 50yrds 100yrds?????

I have tried to search but no luck yet.

I'm more interested in getting his mould to cast and hopefully pretty round.

He is pretty adamant about pure lead but I though a bit of tin wouldn't hurt things for the casting size.

I thought you just slopped a bit of powder down the bore and ran a greased minnie bullet on top
and blasted away with great accuracy.

Hope some insight be helpful
Barra

[Zymurgy50]

Use pure lead, and turn up the heat on the pot. pure needs 700-750* to cast well. Forget the wood plugs, the hollow base is supposed to swell under pressure to engage the rifling. I have used a dry felt wad under the minnie when hunting, just to keep the lube away from the powder charge. As for diameter, the minnie should slide down the barrel with little resistance, just enough to hold the minnie against the powder charge.

[Nobade]

.574" to .575" for size. Pure lead. No wood plugs. No wads. 60gr. FFg or 40gr. FFFg to start. Slide bullet down to powder and give it one good tap with the rod. Do it the same every time. One hole groups at 50M, less than 4 inches at 100M. Dip lube boolits, then run through a push through sizer to size and scrape off excess lube. Wipe bore when loading gets hard, if you have good lube 40 -50 shots should be doable depending on temp/humidity.

-Nobade

[fouronesix]

Follow the instructions so far posted in this thread.

That .576 bore diameter sounds fine and will give you options for a Minié that should shoot well. Bore diameters of .580 and larger may call for oversized Miniés.

I have never been able to get the Lee Improved version to shoot well in any of my muskets. I've never figured that out because it looks goods- just doesn't shoot for me.

You should be able to get 1", maybe better, at 50 yards. If it's more like 4" at 50 yards, then seriously consider one of the RCBS or Lyman Miniés.

[barrabruce]

Thanks I'm on the right track now.

I gave the mould some clean up of the smokey black ooze mess he has all over it.
Nearly back to aluminium even,

I cast some with some ww cos I got that in my pot.
He gave me some pure 99.98% broken hill ingot to play with thou.
The mold casts .575 at the part line and .581 at the middle of the mold.
The mold has a gap of about 3-4 thou which is probably the cause of this.
I was going to cast some and use them to clean it up with a light rub of auto sol or toothpaste but I'll have to get it to close properly again first I think. Thought the ww might be easier to work with than dead soft lead.

Apart from that and the base a bit wonky as to an even edge I can understand why he has had so much trouble.

Thanks for the input.

Shall get in touch with him tomorrow and see what he wants to do with it.

I'll let you's know how we fare and thanks for the help
Bruce

[fouronesix]

Sounds good. Even though I've never gotten the Lee Improved to shoot well, it won't hurt to give it an honest try- if that's the only mold available at this time.

The way Miniés are designed to work, pure lead is the way to go. Try to get the skirt even and fully filled-out. Watch for voids in the upper part of the hollow base.

After working with these for a long time, getting a rifle musket to shoot well is one of my favorite types of muzzleloader shooting. Downright rewarding when you see those big holes popping into a nice tight cluster at 50 yds. If the musket has a decent bore, no reason it won't shoot well if loaded and shot properly.

[Rattus58]

O.k. my search foo is all gone on me.
I don't do black powder but interested in a strange way.

Helping a mate trying to get his musket/musketoon front stuffer shooting thing to work proper.

He has a lee mold improved Minnie 90476 58 cal Minnie thing which I'm cleaning up to try and cast properly.

His bore is @ 0.576" at the tightest bit a couple of inches down the bore. I feels like it gets bigger near the breech end.

His goove diameter is @ 0.581".

We are trying to make a sizer for it for the right diameter.

His lube is something like mutton fat /oil and something or other. Probably some smeltered down extinct animal liver or such.

What should one be looking at so as to diameter??

He is putting wood plugs up the hollow base and using pure lead with a cushion wad of some sort.
He uses ffg

Was the general idea with these things to get some sort of reasonable accuracy?
How accurate should be one expected to achieve 4" at 50yrds 100yrds?????

I have tried to search but no luck yet.

I'm more interested in getting his mould to cast and hopefully pretty round.

He is pretty adamant about pure lead but I though a bit of tin wouldn't hurt things for the casting size.

I thought you just slopped a bit of powder down the bore and ran a greased minnie bullet on top
and blasted away with great accuracy.

Hope some insight be helpful
Barra
This is not the most accurate bullet. It is a great hunting bullet. The skirts are thin, so use a wad between powder or turn the pin... I had lee do this for me till they wanted a $100 for it. In my opinion, it is a short range hunting bullet. I sized this bullet to .580 for use in all my 58's... including my zoave and musketoon and no problems for me anyways in loading.

[Rebel Dave]

Wheel weights will not work, they are to hard. You must use pure lead when making minnies. You need to find your proper bore size. To do this use pin gages. Then size your minnies .001-.002 inch undersize of the bore.
As an example, the bore size on my Richmond rifle is .577, so, I size all my minnies for this gun to .575.
Also use only lubes that are compatable with black powder, assuming that's what you are using, no lubes for modern powder, they will make a gooky mess shortly.
I have been shooting my muskets this way for 40 yrs, and it works. All of us in the N-SSA do this in one form or another, your personel way might vary a little, but three things are common. 1 Know your bore size. 2, Use only pure lead, for minnies. 3, size your minnies .001-.002 under bore size.

Powder charges should be worked up. A good starting point is 40-50 grains of 3-F black powder. If going over 50 grains use 2-F. My load in one of my muskets is 45 grns 3-F with the Lyman wadcutter Minnie #575494. In my Richmond 2bnd rifle I use 40 grns 3-F and the Wilkinson bullet.

Hope this helps, and good luck. Muskets are fun to shoot.

Rebel Dave

[barrabruce]

Well I ended up doing an all nighter on the mould:veryconfu

This mold had a by the looks non fitted blocks. Sherly must have missed this one.
After mating the mould proper by carefull filing in those ridges I reduced the block gap to around 1 thou.
de- burred and slipperied it all up.
I took his sample bullets around and tried to explain what I had done.

[smilie=b:

Never mind ..apparently he never had any trouble with it till last time he used it.
And they were always that good.
Even at 1 under 1 other bore size the bullets would now push through by hand in the 2 thou under bore size sizing die with a lathe handle as a pusher.

Boy is that pure lead soft!!!!

So maybe next week or so he/we can test run a few to see how they fare.

A lot easier than the hard hammer fit before.

Trying to explain how I took stuff out of the mould cavities and made it cast truer an smaller did not really compute. Never mind.

By indexing the bullet between the lands we should be able to see if there is any difference in performance as well as the sized ones.

Phew!!!!

At least it is now casting where the centre of the mass is very very close to the centre line of the bullet, It just a slightly flattened round thing. Till its finished.

I can't see how sizing such a soft bullet can help unless things are perfectly aligned an fitted myself being so easy to deform.

Anyway I will be pleased to see if it shoots or not.
It should be 1000% than having half of a bullet 6-8 thou out of round to one side.

How do I know??? well when trying to turn a bullet in the mould the blocks would open and close in a wobbley manner. If it was just to big and smaller diameters they tend to open and close in a more uniform cam type lift. Well that what it seems to me anyways.

If this don't work maybe turning the hollow plug thing down to thicken the skirt like Rastus has commented on.

Should the base be filled up with lube??

I was sort of figuring that the lube would coat the bore and mix with the powder fouling making it not stick to the bore as much and easier to wipe.

Or does the lube filled base tend to work as the wooden plug some what initially and keep the wad from jamming in if using one.

He reckons he had had holes from the plug and bullet in the target at times.
I reckon its gotta either stay with it or come out in a predictable repeatable manner.

SO it all should be fun and games down the range when we co-ordinate a week end to get there.

Boy all I wanted to do was get his sticky non closing grinding mould cleaned up and working again for him. And now look what I'm getting into.

Found a youtube vid of a bloke who was shooting a Minnie bullet with great accuracy (well for me anyway) but he was doing a lot more prepping of the bullet from cast to firing and cleaning and stuff.
But it truly was an eye opener to see what can be achieved with such contraptions.


Having fun with it all and thanks for the enlightenment.

And no I have the will power not to get into this caseless , low s.d., on demand load level shooting contraptions.


Ill stick to trying to get a small lead object into brass vessel tightly.
Put it in a larger ill fitting hole and expect it to go be able to expel the lead mass down a funnel with a sharp step in the end into a smaller hole
Barely supported or properly fitted for most of its length till it goes into the smaller tube.

Expecting by some miracle it will emerge from the small long hole with squiggly lines down it to sail perfectly uniformly through the air at warp speed.
Hit a small well defined object way off farther than the eye can determine with any resolution.
Repeatedly

No I can see no future for me in this new fangled caseless muck.

No Sir not for me.

Barra

[fouronesix]

If this don't work maybe turning the hollow plug thing down to thicken the skirt like Rastus has commented on.

Should the base be filled up with lube??

I was sort of figuring that the lube would coat the bore and mix with the powder fouling making it not stick to the bore as much and easier to wipe.

Or does the lube filled base tend to work as the wooden plug some what initially and keep the wad from jamming in if using one.


Barra

Sounds interesting for sure!

Think about the reason for the Minié design to begin with.... it allowed fast reloading during a battle..... slightly under bore size with grease in grooves to keep the fouling soft.... all designed for continuous, fast loading and firing.

Also, try to think about how a Minié stabilizes in flight...... the skirt expands under pressure to take the rifling..... the twist is slow, so the rotation of the bullet is slow and is only enough to more or less keep it point first in flight..... the majority of the stabilization therefore is via aerodynamics where the center of mass is forward of the center of pressure.... they fly like a shuttlecock or dart with a skirt.

If the skirt is deformed or leaks gas.... no good. If the form of the Minié is out of balance it will fly in a big spiral... not good for accuracy. If the skirt is too thick then the center of mass moves to the rear nearer the center of pressure (they are already pretty close in a normal Minié)..... not at all good for stability if the center of mass is at or to the rear of the center of pressure created by the skirt.

Some Miniés shoot fine with the base full of lube... some it doesn't seem to matter one way or another... try it both ways. Usually no need or advantage to adding a base wad..... those are best left for solid base conicals and heavy loads.

If all this labor getting a questionable mold working doesn't produce satisfactory results, I'd suggest your friend "bite the bullet" and get a proper Minié mold from RCBS, Lyman, etc.

Bruce, to give you an idea of Minié accuracy potential out of a rifle musket, I'll post two targets shot at 50 yards.

The Shoot-N-C target is 3 shots, original M1863 58 cal Rifle Musket, RCBS NS 58 cal Minié, medium load blackpowder, Crisco in grooves.

The regular target is 5 shots, original M1841 54 cal Mississippi Rifle, Lyman 54 cal Minié, medium load blackpowder, Crisco in grooves.

[barrabruce]

Mate knock me down with a feather!!!!
I think that's awesome to say the least. T
he participants at our local range 5-6 would do back flips if they could shoot that good.:) :)
We'll see how we fare in the next couple of weeks hopefully.

Bruce

[fouronesix]

:) Oh I wish those groups were average- ho hum types. But does show the potential of these Minié shooters when carefully shot from a bench. Of all the ones I have, I think the overall average for group size, once I get find the best bullet and load for each, is under 2" @ 50 yards. Sometimes a particular musket, no matter what, will only average around 2" @ 50 yards, while I have a couple that will average well under 1" @ 50 yards. I also have an Enfield carbine (musketoon) and can tell no difference in accuracy potential between it and the longer rifles and muskets.

Of course, once the best combination is found for any one gun it's then up to the shooter, especially when shooting matches off hand or at various distances or for timed fire, etc. At least then it IS up to the shooter and not the uncertainty of the load.

[smilin jack]

Here is a target showing the three shot group of my Lyman 58 minnie ball at 100 yards using a camp chair as a rest while I was sitting on the ground.

The load was 120 gr of Goex 3FFF with a felt over powder wad, the greased minnie using Thompson Bore Butter and a cardboard over slug wad to keep the bullet in position during hunting.

The first shot was a clean barrel. Shot two was a dirty barrel and hit low. Cleaned the barrel and the third shot hit next to shot 1. Yes, minnie balls can shoot well.

Dave

112413

[fouronesix]

barra,
Back to the size question and accuracy potential. Here's a Wm Mason M1861 I shot last week. The bore diameter (land to land) is right at .580. I have an RCBS N-S .580 Minié mold, 420 gr, for the muskets with .580 +/- bores. The C-C group size of 4 shots @ 50 is right at 1". Lucky with this one as the sights are pretty well regulated for windage but as with most of them, the 50 yd POI is well above the POA. I held a "fine" bead at bottom of bull.

Regular load: Pure lead, lubed with Crisco, 50 gr FF Wano black, no swabbing between shots.

[barrabruce]

Well I think that what you's have posted is just plain marvellous.
I don't think he's shot it since we cast a few up and I haven't been to the range for a month or so as I fell off the roof onto the concrete and dislocated me shoulder. Gave me wonky knee hip etc etc a bit of a rattle also.
Lucky I had my knee brace on and it took most of the brunt.
Talk about lucky......I could have really hurt myself.
For you information I didn't even make an imprint in the concrete but a tiny scratch were the brace hit.

I ring him up and find out what the story is and let you's know.

I'm starting to get an itching for black powder now!!!! :)

Barra

[fouronesix]

Well I think that what you's have posted is just plain marvellous.
I don't think he's shot it since we cast a few up and I haven't been to the range for a month or so as I fell off the roof onto the concrete and dislocated me shoulder. Gave me wonky knee hip etc etc a bit of a rattle also.
Lucky I had my knee brace on and it took most of the brunt.
Talk about lucky......I could have really hurt myself.
For you information I didn't even make an imprint in the concrete but a tiny scratch were the brace hit.

I ring him up and find out what the story is and let you's know.

I'm starting to get an itching for black powder now!!!! :)

Barra

Good grief! Lucky is right. Good to hear no super serious injury. Last one I fell off was mine. 8:12 pitch with sheathing on and of course saw dust- talk about slick…. thank goodness only dirt underneath.

[barrabruce]

Well I rang up and this Sunday is blackpowder day and the range meeting soooooo weather pending (slightly tropical raining) He'll fire it up and see how we go with the 'ol girl.


Yes I'll take some pics to post as well.

Be back soon


Barra

[doc1876]

wood plugs?? now I have heard everything. If you have left hand threaded rifling, you will have to use zebra striped monkey grease for a lube, nothing else will work.........wood pugs????

[carbine]

Early attempts had metal plugs to aid expansion as well as wood.

[doc1876]

yes, I remember the metal, but somehow missed the wood ones. Must have been one of those "lost years" in my youth

[Baron von Trollwhack]

P.S. Clay plugs also in many Enfield ammo issues.

BvT

[barrabruce]

Met Ron at the range and he did a bit of mossie fumigating with this front stuffer.

113307

Didn't take pic of the target as I doubt if you see the grouping even thou its 58 cal.

Started at 55 grns with a wad and went up from there.
He was using 75 grains last I seen and things were only getting worse.

Never mind he was content doing his thing.

Well least I tried.

Barra