something is still not happy

[4rdwhln]

I have been having problems with leading and tumbling boolits in my 9mm. I really thought it was from squashing the boolit when I was seating and crimping into to small of brass. I have since acquired a Lyman M die and have solved the to small problem. I still have a leading problem. and I still have about 10 percent tumbling. I am using bens red lube. It has worked in both my .357 and so far no problems in a couple of loads for the 30-06. I do not suspect it but perhaps it is failing? The lead is on the top of the lands and starts 2/3 of the way down the barrel. The grooves are clean as is the first third of the barrel. The mold I use is a Lyman and cast a 124 grain boolit from 50-50-2 and is air cooled. I sort them to groups of 1 grain variance. I am using a charge of 4.0 grains Bullseye and Cci primers in Winchester brass. oal is 1.112. dia at the mouth is .382 with the pulled slug measuring .358..they are .3585 after sizeing. the barrel slugged at .3562. I am open to suggestions as to where to try next.perhaps a harder alloy?

[9.3X62AL]

I use a little harder alloy than you--92/6/2, about BHn 14 or so. Given its high pressures--fast twist rates--and varying dimensions (which you have a handle on), my first move would be to harden up the alloy a bit, assuming your "50-50" portion is "WW-lead". The 9mm benefits from being treated like a rifle in the context of cast bullet usage--fairly hard alloys, fairly soft lubes, and DILIGENT ATTENTION to dimensional integrity between throat and bullet. Your dimensional diligence has already paid dividends--the leading you describe is not excessive, and a bit of hardening may enable the lands to get a better purchase on the bullet sidewalls to prevent "skating"--the probable cause of your tumbles.

You mention a "Lyman" mould design.......is it #356402? Truncated-cone designs like the -402 offer longer sidewalls than most roundnose designs, enabling better land purchase in those fast twists (often 1-10" or 4 turns/meter). Your powder charge is not excessive, your OAL is very close to that of my own TC cast loads in 9mm, and I size to .357" for .356"-.3565" throats in my 9mm pistols.

[tazman]

The only suggestions I can offer is to try either tumble lubing with White label x-lox/45-45-10, or powder coat them.

[Deep Six]

How are you tumble lubing with ben's red? Thats a pan or lubrisizer type lube...

[mikeym1a]

I load for my 1911A1, in .45acp. When i started, I followed the directions in the Lyman # 3 manual, mostly. I mixed 10lbs of COWW and 1lb of 50/50 solder. I then proceeded to cast the Lee 200gr SWC/microgroove, and tumble lubed. I did not size the projectile, as the paper with the mold said it was unnecessary. Loaded over Unique, and fired away. I have never had any leading problems with this load in my pistol. That was several thousand rounds ago. I read of problems like yours, and I guess I just got lucky. Perhaps your alloy is too soft for the muzzle velocity. I really don't know what to suggest, except the basics; slug the bore, make sure the cast boolit matches the bore slug, make sure the powder charge is not too stiff. I hope you find the answer to your dilemma. mikey

[petroid]

Any change the bore might be a tad larger toward the muzzle? Have you slugged the muzzle and throat independently? This would tell you if the dimensions are even for the length of the barrel or not. Or when you slugged it, was it easier to push the slug near the muzzle than by the chamber. Just wondering if there is gas cutting around the boolit near the muzzle if the bore is slightly bigger there....

[tazman]

How are you tumble lubing with ben's red? Thats a pan or lubrisizer type lube...

The OP isn't tumble lubing with Ben's red. His boolits are tumbling upon leaving the barrel.

[Larry Gibson]

The lead is on the top of the lands and starts 2/3 of the way down the barrel. The grooves are clean as is the first third of the barrel.

That definitely sounds like a lube failure to me. I'd try a different lube such as BAC or the NRA 50/50 as sold by Lar's. If that doesn't cure the problem try a harder alloy also; Add 2% tin to the COWWs and try those. Then add 25% lead to the COWW + 2% tin and try.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Boolit skid from a soft alloy. Use 100% WW lead and water drop.
The nine is a different animal then the ACP, high pressure round.
The "M" die is a solution to a problem you should not have at the start. It can make things worse, letting a boolit go too soon.

[4rdwhln]

I finally got a chance to play some more. The load that I hoped would cure all my woes failed miserably. I had changed to .358 dia.and used the m die ti insure true .358 dia. I ended up with 30%+ tumbling and severe leading. So now I have cast a batch of harder alloy 90%ww 10%pb and a little tin air cooled. and plan to size them to .357. I also took Larry"s advice and since I believe I may have scorched my lube I made another batch. This time I was very careful to keep temps to around 220 degrees. I use the Bens red recipe and local bees wax. My mix looks more like rich pasta sauce than the pink I see in photos on this forum,I added 1/3 of a red crayola this batch. I also added a golf ball sized piece of wax after I poured my first batch of stick moulds. I should have 5 tubes of a softer and 9 tubes of a harder when all is done. So hopefully a harder boolit and better lube will be the true cure all....hope to shoot some tomorrow if all goes well today. Thanks for the advice. Ya all are great folks!!

[williamwaco]

Pull a bullet from a loaded cartridge and Mike it on the base band.

You say you have solved the brass problem but I would like to see a measurement to be sure.

[Cornbread]

Keep us posted until you finally get a resolution and then let us know what finally resolved it as people here help you along. It will contribute to the overall knowledge repository here on this site much better if we catalog issues through final resolution.

[Love Life]

What velocity are you getting?

[4rdwhln]

I have just gotten the lyman 450 cleaned and reloaded with lube and sized a batch at .357. The first thing I noticed was the lube is way Tackier than the first batch..double checked dia with micrometer .3574-.3575 measuring seam and half way from seam. After lunch I will take apart a round a double check assembled dia. hopefully back on track... lyman 356402 mold.

[Old Caster]

Pull a bullet from a loaded cartridge and Mike it on the base band.

You say you have solved the brass problem but I would like to see a measurement to be sure.

Absolutely. This just about has to be your problem.

[4rdwhln]

I went and shot 10 rounds and they were the worst yet . 1 or 2 rounds were stable the rest were not. The first shot hit sideways .. I have pulled a couple apart and found some interesting things.. small bits of lead in the bullet lube and the final bit of downward motion in seating the boolit and crimp starts has lifted a little bit of lead on one side of the boolit.. I imagine either one of these could cause the leading.. I used the .358 sizer then the .357... I can see that someone has messed with the .358 die and its shaving lead. I will try to round the top out like the other sizer dies. bet this is part of it.... I also wonder, the 356402 is really pointy and I may be seating it crooked?? it seems loose in the sizing die top punch as well as in the seat die. Not very much tho.

[4rdwhln]

After I get the barrel clean again I am going to slug it from both ends and see if it is like the blunderbuss....bigger at one end than the other.

[Old Caster]

If you are seating and crimping in the same station it is possible that you are pinching a bit of lead off because the bullet is still going down as the crimp is being applied. The only way to get around this is to use a separate die for seating and crimping but just lessening your crimp might do it. You may be seating crooked because of an incorrect seater. If the bullets are still being swaged by the brass because the m die isn't large enough and you have no way of getting something larger I would suggest trying a harder bullet so they won't be swaged down, however if you can get away with using softer lead, it is likely to be more accurate.

[9.3X62AL]

Old Caster's text prompts another question--here goes. It is absolutely ESSENTIAL to seat bullets in one operation, THEN taper-crimp in a separate step. AND BE VERY JUDICIOUS WITH TAPER CRIMPING--many people over-do it. Is your brass separated by maker? 9mm brass has wide fluctuations in tolerances at case mouth, and this can cause variance in seating and crimping.

[Old Caster]

9.3, Not only what you said but the insides of cases taper differently depending on manufacturer and just as much as 9mm barrels vary greatly by manufacturer so do the cases.

[9.3X62AL]

Yessir, 9mm case specs are all over the map.

[4rdwhln]

As always I appreciate the food for though. I have sorted all my 9mm brass by brand. It was quite a chore as I have over a 5 gallon bucket full. I ended up with a 3 lb coffee can full of win brass,all of it is range brass. I have been looking at the results of my last casting session with the 356402 and my lee 309-170. All the bullets with the lee mold are hot and slightly frosted and very uniform and the batch of 356402 has problems with the top driving band fill out and show signs of overheating. I use an old 3 lb bottom drop pot with a soldering iron thermometer control attached to it. It was my fathers and I have been using it for 20 years or so. I believe that the soldering iron temp control is wearing out as I had a hard time with temp control the last few times I used it. I am going to get another melt pot and start over again. So far my best load was the load at the start of this 50%ww-50% pb-%-2% tin. If I am correct at the flaws in my casting and the scorched lube I missed the whole problem from the git go.

[4rdwhln]

As to the 9mm brass being all over the place anybody still have the Norma brass with the big bump on the inside bottom by the flash hole I found out about them when just over a starting load blew out the firing pin hit in the center of a primer.

[FergusonTO35]

I may have missed it, but what kind of gun are we talking about here? Any problems with j-words or plated slugs?

[4rdwhln]

The gun is a taurus 24-7 oss I Purchased it in the pawn shop and it looked almost new. I shot it maybe 100 rounds when it broke. I sent it in and since I got it back it has worked fine with jacketed remington hp. It is kinda frustrating I have cast and loaded for .38/.357, 44 mag and the .45 acp for years no problems to speak of. started loading and casting for the 30-06 also no problems.

[Old Caster]

The only problem I have noticed with loading the 9mm with lead is with accuracy unless you do everything right which basically includes expanding the cases the right amount and seating the right kind of bullet with the right lube. Some guns need a bullet so big that if the case was expanded large enough, it won't chamber.

[tazman]

I had a similar problem with my Taurus pt92. It would shoot jacketed well but nothing I tried worked with cast. After some study, I found out the lands were too narrow or too low to properly grip a cast lead boolit. For me the fix was to get a replacement barrel. Beretta 92/m9 barrels are a drop in replacement for my pt92 barrel and it gives me superb accuracy.
I am not sure what the options are for your pistol.