Sharps "blowby"& recoil Question

[Razor]

I'm 98% convinced I NEED a Sharps...BUT...
Talking to a buddy at work today, he mentioned if he loads his 45-70 Sharps to max, he gets "blowby" gasses from around his firing pin...
Common occurence or has he got something really wrong ??
Therefore he only shoots the tamed down Trapdoor loads..
Also says with the higher power loads his 9.5 lb Sharps (Business rifle?) recoil is almost painful...(??)
I consider myself a "recoil junkie"...:twisted:
I plink with old Turk M38's with hot Turk ammo...FUN !![smilie=w:
MN M44's with heavy ball 7.62 = OH YEAH !!!
My SMLE 4 Mk1* w/ Mk VII ball ammo is a step above a .22 Mag..recoil.:coffee:
Golden Eagle .300 WIN MAG (7 lb) = OWWWW! (3 rds, better stop now, barrels hot, yeah! that's it !)
Ain't shot a Sharps...
So...
where does a Sharps fit in there in the recoil dept ???
I'm thinkin' of one in 45-110....
Opinions appreciated...


Razor

[omgb]

Most of the replicas and all of the originals have a rather large firring pin hole. Shooting hot loads is an invitation to a ruptured primer and a blown out eye ball. The action is plenty strong but without a bushed firring pin you are limited to about 28,000 psi or about 10,000 above trapdoor loads.

Recoil is painful with the crescent butt and the drop of the stock. Recoil junky or not, shoot a hundred rounds prone and you will have a twitch until the muscles are healed.

Unless one is shooting BP you might as well save money and go with the 45-70. The extra length is not needed without BP bulk loading and is in fact, a hindrance with smokeless.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I have 5 x Sharps and never seen one blowby yet? I would check firing pin protrusion and see if primers are being pierced.

You don't say whether they are BP or smokeless loads. Because BP operates at lower pressure it is important to properly anneal cases so that they will seal the chamber walls.

As for recoil, depends on the weight bullet you use. I would suggest a 540gn bullet with a full charge in the 45/110 will get your attention. Having said that, I shoot a 50/90 using 650gn bullet and 105gn FG with ease.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/5090_Feb07.jpg

[Razor]

OOOPS.. He runs smokeless...
I'm leaning to BP..
Thanks

Razor

[KCSO]

Once more...
The original Sharps had a large diameter firng pin and with heavy loads the primer would blow back into the firng pin hole and rupture. The design of the pin is such that the gasses come straight back to your eye unimpeded by any hammer. This will happen with FFFG in an original Sharps. Soon people who valued their eyes began bushing the firing pins and placing a gas shield behind the pin. The best setup is a bushed pin and a dovetailed shield. The addition of a loose round plate behind the pin will stop the primer shards but doesn't help much for the gas blowby. If you have an unbushed and non plated Sharps you need to shoot B/P pressure loads ONLY!!!! This is why in Pet Loads, Waters rated the Sharps as a WEAK action. If you have an unbushed pin and a loose plate you need to shoot B/P velocity loads. If you have a bushed pin and a dovetailed plate THEN you can whoop 'em up a little.

[fourarmed]

45-70 brass is common and cheap. 45-90 brass is available from Starline for about twice as much. The longer cases are going to be several dollars apiece. Something to consider.

[omgb]

I really think you need to sit down, take a deep breath and consider what it is you really want to do with your Sharps.

The big Sharps cartridges, 45-90 and up, are fun, most of which is in the nostalgia factor. I love mine. Attempting to recreate 19th century loads and hit targets way out beyond 400 yards is a kick. To do this means I work in BP and forgo smokeless. So, the 45-90 is perfect for me. It has the umph to keep a long bullet stabilzed out beyond 400 yards and cases are only about $1.25 each.

Now, I also have a couple of 45-70s. These are hunting guns that weigh in under 10 lbs. That Sharps of mine is over 11 lbs and has a 34" barrel, these hunting guns have 22 and 24" barrels. i shoot smokeless in these and sometimes I ramp up the velocites. One is a lever action Marlin, the other is a bolt action Siamese Mauser. I can hot rod the heck out of either of these and I never use BP in them. If either had been in 45-90 or more, smokeless would be much more difficult to load effectively. that huge case capacity makes ignition and other things kinda tricky with certain bullet/powder combinations. Recoil gets brutal at high velocities too.

Now that we'er on the subject, the 45-110 and the 45-120 are just plain ugly in terms of recoil. One has to add the weight of the bullet to the weight of the powder charge to predict the total recoil energy. Obviously, heavier powder charges equals greater recoil all things being equal. So, why do it for what, 200 fps more over the 45-70? For nostalgia yes but for hunting? No way Jose, it just doesn't make sense.

I might add too, 45-110 cases and 45-120 cases are over $2.00 each at the cheapest source. The dies are also non-standard items and run in excess of $100 a set. Also, fouling increases with the amount of powder burned. Taming BP fouling is one of the challenges of Bp shooting. With the longer cartridges it can be very challenging under certain weather conditions and with certain brands of powder. All things to consider before taking the plunge.

[wonderwolf]

I've seen some places with 45-120 for under $1.50 each but if they have it in stock or not is beyound me.

I was thinking about posting a thread like this as well as I've been crunching numbers (recoil and velocity) to see if I want to stick with 45-70 or move on to 45-90,100 or beyound for the few times a year I get to shoot WAYYYYYYY out there (heading to a 1,200 yard range this summer with my 45-70 Tip up....don't expect to hit much but I bet I'll have a lot of fun).....I'm only ever gonna shoot BP with the old straight wall bp cases unless I get a button collar mold and decide to make some gallery loads or what not.

When I did the rough math I got about 35 pounds of recoil out of a 45-120 heavy barrel...now I don't remember what I put in for velocity or weight of the rifle and bullet but I tried to match it up with current listed loads and rifle weights....my 458 win mag recoils at twice that with factory loads.....What I could do is try and duplicate recoil figures with my .458 win mag and see how it feels ....hmmm ok thats just thinking out loud.

I know 45-70 can reach out there and touch a 1000 yard gong...but what about those LONG ranges....?

Sorry for the hijack :hijack:


45-120 dies http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=474857

[omgb]

Good price on the dies and brass. maybe things are looking up for shooters of the Big Cartridges.

The recoil from one of these Sharps is made worse than it seems on paper because of the stock design. Your 458 Win most likely has a stock with the proper drop and a nice wide/tall padded butt. The 19th century gun designers just couldn't or wouldn't change from the old muzzle loader past; sweeping dropping stocks with short skinny butts, shaped in sharp curves with radii to narrow to fit a man's shoulder ....Ouch!

The 45-70 launched with BP will be accurate out to 400 yards of so. After that, the bullet begins to pitch and yaw with key-holing pretty common out at 800 yards of so and virtually 100% at 1,000. The problem is the velocity. It's too low to properly stabilize a long heavy bullet out at long range. it starts out OK but looses speed quickly and becomes under spun and under "slung" at or around the 500 yard mark depending on bullet weight and style. The 45-90 and the 45-110 give about 200 fps more with the same bullet weight. This is just enough to hold the bullet stable at long range.

[crossfireoops]

Good price on the dies and brass. maybe things are looking up for shooters of the Big Cartridges.

The recoil from one of these Sharps is made worse than it seems on paper because of the stock design. Your 458 Win most likely has a stock with the proper drop and a nice wide/tall padded butt. The 19th century gun designers just couldn't or wouldn't change from the old muzzle loader past; sweeping dropping stocks with short skinny butts, shaped in sharp curves with radii to narrow to fit a man's shoulder ....Ouch!

The 45-70 launched with BP will be accurate out to 400 yards of so. After that, the bullet begins to pitch and yaw with key-holing pretty commmon out at 800 yards of so and viturally 100% at 1,000. The problem is the velocity. It's too low to properly stabilize a long heavy bullet out at long range. it starts out OK but looses speed quickly and becomes under spun and under "slung" at or around the 500 yard mark depending on bullet weight and style. The 45-90 and the 45-110 give about 200 fps more with the same bullet weight. This is just enough to hold the bullet stabil at long range.


I'm just goin' to quote my bud "Ronbo".....

"Years of shooting metallic silhouette competition in Tucson have taught me that this cartridge (45-70) is versatile enough to shoot both mid and long range"

Calderone won the Castle Trophy plaque, an NRA gold medallion, and a donated CPA Stevens rifle and Baldwin sights. "

The 45-70 won the NRA Creedmoor at the NRA BPCR Nats this year.

Your knowledge base of loading / shooting this cartridge, ....with home cast, and shooter applied knowledge falls REALLY flat.

GTC

[BruceB]

Gents;

For whatever it's worth, the original breechblock in my Farmingdale-built Shiloh (1980 vintage) had the dovetailed plate behind the firing pin, but also had the original large-size firing-pin hole. I fired some very ambitious loads with that set-up without difficulty beyond some minor cratering of primers.

When my rifle got its half-price re-barrel job at the Shiloh factory, they also changed the breechblock to the newer style with small-diameter hole...without charge, and without being asked.

The owner of the company has gone on record as saying that a Shiloh rifle will take any load that a Ruger #1 will tolerate, pressure-wise. That is quite a statement, considering the strength of a #1, and I doubt he'd make such a claim without KNOWING whereof he speaks.

Among the various 1874 Sharps' replicas, a Shiloh is not a "weak" rifle.

[waksupi]

Yup, sonofagun, I've been shooting 1000 yard plus for 25 years, and didn't realise I was making hits with keyholing bullets. I do notice yaw at around the 700-800 ranges, and the bullet goes back to sleep after that, it seems. Still seem to get my share of hits at those ranges, too. I suspect if you are having longer range accuracy problems, your bullets are probably too light. 500 gr. minumum.

[wonderwolf]

My next Q....is how fast do you think that bullet is going by the time it gets out that way?....I'm almost thinking about 40cal's here in the same bullet weight but I'm not sure how well they would work out that far..depends on speed really.

[KCSO]

Bruce
That's interesting as the dovetail plate was a modification started, I think in the Denver gun shop of Schoyer (sp). He also did the twin extractor setups. I have only shot one original with the dovetail plate, but they had it in the old days. My Sharps (Pedersoli) sems to like the Lee 450 gr bullet and is doig good work out to 300 yards with it. I tried the 535 Postell and while it shot good it was not a hunting bullet so I quit working with it. I have been lately working with paper patch bullets trying to duplicate the original Sharps 45 2 1/10 75/420. I am working on making a tapered mould for the paper patch slug with an adjustable cavity. I know I wil have to swab more often with the paper patch, but I think for hunting it will be worth it to throw a dead soft slug of 420 grains.

[Razor]

Thanks for the inputs fellas...
Some sage advice here.

I really think you need to sit down, take a deep breath and consider what it is you really want to do with your Sharps.

Several good points here that I hadn't really thought out.
My shooting will be 200 yds max, 99% of the time...Paper punching in the back yard .
45-70 is plenty for that.
45-110 just 'cause I wanted one...[smilie=1:
While I do enjoy flame, smoke, noise and recoil.. I ain't really into serious pain.
Good point about the brass/powder/lead costs too.
Thanks again for helping me think this out.:-D

Razor

[Guido4198]

Razor...
Many, perhaps even MOST of the guys I know who bought a 45/110 or 45/120 'cause they wanted one(which is a perfectly good reason..)...have gone to a 45/70 'cause it's more fun to shoot. The caveat there is that..few of us have a 1200 yd. range close enough to us to enjoy on a regular basis. It has been my observation that for myself, and MOST of my buddies... convenient range availability is pretty much limited to 200-500 yds. and for that kind of shooting the 45/70 is plenty.

[wonderwolf]

What kind of bad juju we get from shooting 45-70 in any of the longer chamberings...besides a buildup of deposits like shooting 38spl in .357 mag :roll:

[omgb]

The longer chamber and throats will have the bullet jumping quite a distance before it engauges the rifling. This makes it possible for the bullet to tip and enter the bore at an angle. I've never tried it but it has been written up by Venturino a few times and it frequently shows up on the Shiloh and BPCR blogs. I've never seen it stated that one can achieve acceptable accuracy doing it. Of couse, my knowledge on the subject is "flat" so don't take my word for it.:kidding:

[wonderwolf]

I would think it would primarly depend on the throat and type...and how the bullet is fitted (diam) sounds like I should take some bad 45-70 cases and make them really short....:Fire: no sense in trying to guess what will happen....lets just try it

[montana_charlie]

What kind of bad juju we get from shooting 45-70 in any of the longer chamberings...
The length difference between .38 Special and .357 Mag is a tenth of an inch.
The first jump upward in chamber length (in the straight-walled .45's) is a difference of three tenths.

In the extreme condition...which is what the question is aimed at...shooting a 45/70 cartridge in a 45/120 chamber means the case is about 1 1/8 inches too short.

Anybody who doesn't believe there is some bad ju ju in that difference must love to dig lead out of barrels...and probably can't even spell akurusey.
CM

[wonderwolf]

So you might be able to get away with it in the first step up in chambers....but wouldnt recomend it in the others.....was just curious [smilie=1:

[montana_charlie]

So you might be able to get away with it in the first step up in chambers....but wouldnt recomend it in the others.....was just curious [smilie=1:
Sorry I gave you that impression.
I think the first jump is way too much, considering it is three times the difference between the revolver rounds you are comparing with.

And speaking of that...
A revolver bullet leaves the case (short or long) and passes through the mouth of the cylinder...then jumps a gap...then through a funnel-shaped forcing cone...and then, after all of that, finally sees some rifling.

I don't believe that any 'revolver information' ever has a place in 'rifle discussions'...unless the subject about is gun oil, or something.

One thing that is an unaviodable part of rifle shooting is the potential for wear due to 'blast forces' in the throat and leade.
Shooting a cartridge that is too short for a chamber moves that errosion back from the throat/leade area, into the front part of the chamber recess.

All I can say about that is, "What a criminal way to treat a rifle!"

CM

[NickSS]

I have been shooting long range for 40 years and can say only that if you are getting key holling with a 45-70 past 400 yards you have the wrong bullet or lube. I have shot this cartridge out to 1200 yards and have scored well with it. As to recoil I will go back to when I started shooting it at long ranges and from the prone possition. I was using a padded shooting coat and a sling. This was allowable in the matches I was competing in. The loads were a 520 gr bullet and 65 gr of GOEX FFG. Recoil felt by me was stiffer than a 300 win mag with 190 gr matchkings and a full load of 4350 I used for 1000 yard matches. After shooting 50 rounds pluss sighters the first day. I felt good and was ready for the next days shoot. However, When I got into possition for my first match my shoulder was really tender where the but plate landed. I did the math and recoil with that load was close to a 338 Win Mag so it builds on the punnishment the old shoulder takes. This is probably why buffelo hunters liked 16 pound rifles to reduce the wear and tear on their bodies the only way they knew.

[45-70marlin]

Hey guys,
Check this out, range tests on 45-70 done in 1879. http://home.earthlink.net/~sharpsshtr/CritterPhotos/SandyHook/SandyHook.html