Big Fat Boolits

[dubber123]

A while back I bought a used Lyman 450 luber, and it had a .457" Lyman die in it. Seeing no earthly need for an undersize die, I figured I would hone it to .460", as I had a .459" already. I have honed many dies, some are harder some softer, but NONE like this thing! I have tackled it 3 times, and managed to get it to .458". It is hard as a rock! I finally gave in, heated it a dull red, and let it cool. This softened it enough to work with. I screwed up and honed right past .460" though, and the finish paper took it to .461". I wasn't even sure it would chamber, but I loaded one for my Marlin Cowboy. The round drops right to the rim without a hiccup. I have shot boolits .004" over bore with excellent results. My question is: What if any drawbacks are there to shooting .002" or .003" over bore? I know pressure will be higher, but the bore seal should be better, and if accuracy is acceptable, whats the downside?

[MtGun44]

The only downside I have heard of is excessive accuracy. [smilie=1:

Serioiusly, changing the size of a lead bullet a couple thousandths is
pretty easy to do in a luberisizer, why would it cause any distress in a
system generating in the range of 35,000 psi and up?

Bill

[dubber123]

Kinda what I was wondering. I often see the ".001" over bore size is ideal" statement made, and I wondered where it comes from. Do people really notice accuracy going to pot with fatter boolits? I have only shot .004" over size on one gun, my 50-70 Contender, and if anything it shot better with them.

[Bass Ackward]

Depends on the bullet design and the load or powder speed. As a general rule, the faster I want to go, the smaller the diameter I want to go. But that is just a generality. I have a .435 Keith of all designs that just shoots like a house of fire in my Marlin when everything else has wanted to be much smaller. And the bore is just .4305. Results trump theory.

[dubber123]

I can see the goods and bads of oversize boolits, I just see the .001" figure tossed about so much, I thought I would get a bunch of opinions on why or why not to exceed this number. I will try these, and see how they do, thats what really matters anyways. If nothing else, going up .002" from my previous size should get me .001" closer to being centered in the chamber than I was, and that can't hurt.

[Wicky]

I'm with Dubber here I have always sized to .001" over bore size but recently started casting for my 310 martini. These 120 grainers are a couple of thou oversize and accuracy is about 1.5" at 50 metres.
Is there any real reason why boolits can't be a couple of thou oversize? I used to always assume it was a pressure thing but lead is pretty soft!
Bass do you get better accuracy with the slimmer boolits with higher velocity over fatter boolits?

[Buckshot]

...............The issues about sizing can be partially attributed to the old repeated warnings because of the dies at the time having had a step in them. instead of a smooth transition. They really did the boolit no great kindness.

Another is that from a good mould a booit is pretty round. We take it and run it down into a lube-sizer die using a press whose ram is in questionable alignment with the die. If you have a Lyman or RCBS press and think it's in pretty good shape, try this test. Use any die and a nosepunch for the same caliber. Run the ram down toward the die until it just about enters the die.

Is it concentric with the mouth of the die? Grasp the nosepunch between your thumb and forefinger and try pushing and pulling it forward and backward as that is where the pressure occurs. Another problem, but mainly with the longer rifle boolits and harder alloys is bending. Especially bad culprits are those with a scraper groove in front of the top drive band, like the Lyman 311284 or the Saeco RG4/#301.

.................Buckshot

[Wicky]

Thanks Buckshot - more to think about and play with - only gets better!!

[lovedogs]

Sometimes I have to scratch my head about "what's supposed to work". I frequently run into instances where things work out even when they go against all conventional wisdom. My Marlin Cowboy is one such case. The bore is hugely oversized at .4315. The only sizer I have for my Saeco Luber/Sizer is a .430. I run my #2 alloy bullets through it, lubing with Larsen's 50/50 lube. At slow speeds (lower pressures) it shoots so-so. But if I push them hard, say 1800+ FPS the GC'd bullets don't lead and shoot great, right at MOA at all ranges to 250 yds. I couldn't expect a .44 mag to shoot any better... and this with a way undersized bullet. Go figure!

[9.3X62AL]

"Results trump theory." Few truer words have graced this site since its inception, Bass.

[dubber123]

Well, I do intend to give these fatsos a good wringing out in the 45-70. Having had good success with fatter boolits in the past, I am optomistic. I always have the .459" sizer if they don't work as anticipated. I have 2 of Boomers 420 grain FN moulds coming, PB and GC, and they are supposedly dropping at .462", so if this honed sizer works out, I will get away without sizing nearly so much, something I always prefer to do.

[FWAddit]

The only caliber that has given me trouble with oversize bullets is 6mm Rem. Of course .001 is a lot bigger proportion of that diameter than of a .30 or .45.

Anyway, when I first started shooting Lyman #245496 in my 700 Remington, I sized it to .245. Some alloy was range scrap, some wheelweights. None would group with any load of any powder I tried, from tiny charges of Red Dot up through medium speed powders like H4895 and IMR3031 and on to H4831. I tried light loads with unsized boolits without gas checks but with Cream of Wheat filler. No good. Four-inch groups at 25 yards.

At a clearance sale at the old Herter's store in Waseca, MN, I bought a .244 sizing die. Bingo! Light loads, moderate loads, they all shot reasonably well. I recently acquired another 6mm rifle, this one with a Lilja barrel, and it reacts exactly the same way.

However, my 600 Remington 6mm doesn't care whether the bullets are sized .244 or .245, or fired unsized with a filler. It shoots them all very well. Maybe I need to make chamber casts to see if the difference lies in the throating, because the bores are all right at .243.

[dubber123]

Thats what I will have to find out. The 50-70 Contender is the only one I have shot grossly oversized, and it shot extremely well. The fat boolits may be great in the Marlin, or a waste of time. I need to get to the range. I feel a sick day coming on.....

[Maven]

dubber123, If you're worried about bending the CB's, do as BruceB. suggested and remove the ejector rod from your die and the depth adjustment screw assembly from the sizer and size your bullets nose first. You can easily fashion a flat punch for the base (or nose if sizing/lubing normally) for the #450 from a bolt.

[dubber123]

Maven, no I was not worried about bending them, I just haven't seen in my limited experiments, anything bad about shooting 2 or 3 thousandths over bore, and wanted to hear any other thoughts on the issue. It appears many people have no issues with it, but some have had trouble. My thoughts on this particular rifle is the fatter boolits should center the rounds better in the chamber, and the fatter boolits should seal the bore as well, or likely better than a smaller boolit.

[Maven]

dubber123, I see your point and am in complete agreement.

[dubber123]

Now I just have to do something more than cast boolits and load ammo! This weekend will be my first opportunity, but the temps supposed to nosedive right about that time. Group shooting at 10 degrees isn't as much fun as it used to be.

[dubber123]

Tried a few groups with boolits sized to .461", Boomers 462420 plain base, and Ranch Dogs 425rf. I had a crappy rest, so it wasn't a great test, but the fat boolits seem to shoot very well out of this gun. Only 1 group with Boomers PB boolit, but 5 went into 1.10", (iron sights, 50 yards), with some wiggling at the bench. I am confident it will do significantly better than that. Fouling seemed to be lighter also. I will try some of these fatter boolits at a harder bhn next time, approx 29 bhn vs. the 14 bhn of this test.

[WyrTwister]

A while back I bought a used Lyman 450 luber, and it had a .457" Lyman die in it. Seeing no earthly need for an undersize die, I figured I would hone it to .460", as I had a .459" already. I have honed many dies, some are harder some softer, but NONE like this thing! I have tackled it 3 times, and managed to get it to .458". It is hard as a rock! I finally gave in, heated it a dull red, and let it cool. This softened it enough to work with. I screwed up and honed right past .460" though, and the finish paper took it to .461". I wasn't even sure it would chamber, but I loaded one for my Marlin Cowboy. The round drops right to the rim without a hiccup. I have shot boolits .004" over bore with excellent results. My question is: What if any drawbacks are there to shooting .002" or .003" over bore? I know pressure will be higher, but the bore seal should be better, and if accuracy is acceptable, whats the downside?


My cousin and I shoot Marlin .45-70 .

I have the Lee 405 grain HB mold . It throws BIG bullets !

I had a .457 Lee sizer . We used a piece of dowell rod , cut a split in one end with a hack saw . Stuck some emmery cloth in the split , wrapped it around the rod . Used this and some oil and honed the sizer out to .460 " .

We tumble lubed the bullets , sized them and tumble lubed them again .

Initial testing seems to indicate they are going to shoot pretty good .

If your die is .461" , I will bet it will work fine . If you wish to re-heat treat your die , heat it up at least red hot & then drop it into a pan of boiling water .

This is how I made a leaf spring for a rifle .

Or , if you want it even hotter , quinch it into ice water . But that may make it too hard , brittle ?

God bless
Wyr

[dubber123]

When I started to hone after heating it, I noticed the inside of the die was very rough, and assumed I had produced some scaling when I heated it. Due to this I didn't dare to heat it again and quench it, for fear of ending up with a very rough inside finish, so I left it soft.

I have gotten quite a few factory dies that seem pretty soft, and they last just fine, so I didn't sweat it much. If I was a better shade tree machinist, I would have left the final bit of honing for after the heat treat, but didn't think of it.

[McLintock]

With my Browning 1885 Single Shot in 38-55, with a .376 barrel, I shoot a 245 gr bullet at .380 and a 270 gr gas checked one at .381 and have for years. Has always outshot smaller diameter bullets and is very consistant and accurate. The heavier bullet is leaving the barrel at over 1700 fps so it's no slouch in the speed department. I think it just boils down to what they always say, "it depends on the gun and what it likes", there's no set standards.
McLintock

[Boomer Mikey]

Everything 30 cal and up seems to work better if you feed them the largest bullet you can chamber because the bullet is centered in the chamber or bore better.

Remember... the final sizing die is the barrel, the only reason to use a sizing die is to lube the bullet, seat the gas check and make it small enough to chamber.

It takes less than 250 pounds of pressure to push a lubed, lead bullet through the bore.

Boomer :Fire:

[dubber123]

Everything 30 cal and up seems to work better if you feed them the largest bullet you can chamber because the bullet is centered in the chamber or bore better.

Remember... the final sizing die is the barrel, the only reason to use a sizing die is to lube the bullet, seat the gas check and make it small enough to chamber.

It takes less than 250 pounds of pressure to push a lubed, lead bullet through the bore.

Boomer :Fire:

I have been sizing both of your group buy moulds in a .461" die, and they chamber freely in my Marlin. Fouling seems reduced, and accuracy better.

[runfiverun]

asirc every.001 raises pressure approx. 250 psi

[Boomer Mikey]

asirc every.001 raises pressure approx. 250 psi

There are so many variables that generalizations are somewhat appropriate; bore condition, bullet fit, longer, heavier, lighter, shorter, softer, harder, colder, warmer, alloy, lube, etc...

The point is that there weren't many matches won with loose fitting bullets and my cast bullet shooting has improved significantly after increasing my sizer die sizes to 0.461" for the 45 caliber rifles, 0.434" for my 44 caliber rifles, 0.381" for my 38 caliber rifles, and 0.360" for my 35 caliber rifles. I still have to size some bullets smaller to chamber in some of the guns but finding successful results has been easier with the largest diameter bullets that will chamber, especially in the predominately over size chambers and barrel groove diameters present in so many of my guns. For example, my 45-70 1885 Browing hi-wall has a groove diameter of 0.456" and chambers 0.461" sized bullets. Bullets sized 0.457" aren't supported in the chamber as well as bullets sized to 0.461"

Again this is a generalization; I also have guns that will shoot better with bullets sized 0.001" over groove diameter.

Boomer :Fire: