Looking for opinions on ML build

[oldred]

Ok I need some serious opinions here, if this sounds like a dumb idea then please say "that's a dumb idea", you will not offend me by giving an honest opinion!


I have built a couple of 1885 High Wall style rifles, one full size BP caliber and a scaled down 22 WMR but I have been toying with the idea of building one as an in-line muzzleloader ever since a friend asked about the possibility of doing that. At first it sounded kind of far-fetched but after thinking about it a bit I thought why not? Basically I could build it the same as the others except use a breech plug for a 209 primer instead of chambering for a cartridge, the extractor could easily be made to work with such an arrangement so the actual conversion would be dead simple. The scaled down 22 magnum version of this rifle was already set up as a switch barrel by loosely copying the Ruger 1022 barrel attachment and this design could be refined even further for quick-n-easy barrel removal for cleaning, it might look kind of odd seeing a High Wall with a ramrod under the barrel but then maybe not?

I am thinking either 45 or 50 caliber and maybe a fast twist? The barrel blanks I am finding with the right bore are all slow twist but I suppose a barrel blank for a cartridge caliber could be used although I would rather stick with a true ML barrel in either 15/16" or 1" straight octagon. This is just in the planning stage right now but if I decide to do it I want to start right away, any suggestions would be appreciated and that's the reason I chose this section to ask about this since you guys know MLs best, nothing is decided yet and I am open to suggestions.

What's the pros/cons of a slow vs fast twist for a ML? How about pros/cons of using, for instance, a 458 caliber cartridge barrel if I decide to build a 45 caliber (I already have a 1-18" twist 458 barrel blank).

[johnson1942]

you will love it and i will tell you why. no more cases to clean, basicly what you will be building is a breech gun with a case full of powder and a bullet coming from the muzzle like they did in the old days. only you will eliminate the case. you can use 209 primers and use blackhorn 209 powder, so no cleaning between shots. if you go .45 use a 1/18 twist, if you go .50 use a 1/23 twist to 1/27 twist. the 1/23 twist will allow up to 700 grain bullets and the 1/27 twist will allow a 550 grain bullet. you could shoot cast or paperpatch. in paperpatch you can go double wrap or the single chase wrap. i am finding the chase patch is the easiest and doesnt need a starter and can be done by hand. a .440 bullet and a .492 bullet for the .45 or .50. 20 poundpaper, put on in one wrap as you put it down. it come instantly off at the muzzle. this kind of gun i believe has more potential for accracy that a cartridge gun. you will shoot and shoot and at the end of the day only the gun to clean and now cases to clean and load. wish you lived near me as you coould get the feel for a long range .50 and .45 by shooting mine and see how easy the single wrap chase paperpatch system is. good luck and keep us posted. the pros of a fast twist is shooting close to 1400 yards accurately. paperpatch is easier to load than roundball. its boreing if you like to keep tweeking guns, once your in the groove with a gun like your talking about with paperpatch, it stays their forever. just think ,you can get 25 thousand to 30 thousand peices of paper out of a ream on 20 pound paper for 25 to 30 thousands pp bullets with the chase sysrem. that cheap and independence.

[nhrifle]

That's a dumb idea. :kidding:

Actually, sounds like fun! That could be set up for multiple priming systems-- maybe use empty cases to hold primers, lots of possibilites.

[Rattus58]

I don't know.... A guy on Maui made a muzzleloader out of an AR15 using a 45 caliber barrel... the thing is top shape and accurate.... and really avanteguard...

[Squeeze]

I don't know.... A guy on Maui made a muzzleloader out of an AR15 using a 45 caliber barrel... the thing is top shape and accurate.... and really avanteguard...
http://ultimatefirearms.com/tacticalmodels.php 107401

[Rattus58]

http://ultimatefirearms.com/tacticalmodels.php 107401 My friend used the AR action and a bull barrel he got somewhere that he turned in stainless. I didn't ask him how much he had invested, but it was all parts out of his parts bin except for the barrel that he modified to accept the primer arrangement. I didn't pay attention to the action too much and the primer arrangement other than he used a tool to insert it and I think it was 209 but not clear on that either..... I know that $3,000 takes it out of the fiddlers class though... :cool::grin:

[Tatume]

Steve Zihn is building a rifle for me using a Green Mountain barrel blank intended for a 45-70 lever action rifle. He will use a piece of the blank to make a 7/8"x14 die that will size bullets and engrave rifling, similar to a Lee sizing die. This is a high quality blank and Steve says rifles so built are highly accurate. This rifle will be in the style of mid-1800s John Rigby guns, and of course will have a correct fixed breech plug. I mention it for the reference to the barrel blank.

Another gunsmith modified an H&R 45/70 rifle into a muzzleloader for me by tapping the breech for a Savage 10-ML-II breech plug. It works very well, is very easy to remove and replace, and leaks no gas. I suggest this for your build.

Your idea is not a dumb idea. Many Ruger No. 1 rifles and H&R Handi-Rifles have been modified into muzzleloaders. Building from scratch is no less practical.

[oldred]

I am a firm believer in those Green Mountain blanks!

Thanks for the suggestion on the Savage breech plug, I am kind of new to in-lines but I have owned T/C Hawkins for almost 40 years in both 50 and 54 caliber. I did get a new breech plug for one of those cheap Traditions in-lines just to kind of sort things out and get some ideas on the 209 primer system but I was not impressed with the way it's made, it looks like it would leak a lot of gas so I had already decided against that one.

I think I will do this and I have come up with a couple of ideas for the forearm/ramrod design that will incorporate some of the old plains rifle features that should look good and allow for quick barrel detachment which is a big plus for any muzzleloader to aid in cleaning.

[M-Tecs]

I would recommend doing some research on smokeless powder breech systems. You can use smokeless,sub or black in them. I am currently using both the Savage type I and type II breech systems with sabots. My next one will be with large rifle primers and sabot less bullet. You use a full form bullet sizing die made from the barrel so it is a modern false muzzle used in a press to size and pre-rifle the bullet. http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/13487/building-full-form-bullet-sizing (http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/13487/building-full-form-bullet-sizing)

Good info here

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/ (http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/)

http://smokelessmz.com/index.html (http://smokelessmz.com/index.html)

http://www.richardscustomrifles.com/custommuzzleloader.htm (http://www.richardscustomrifles.com/custommuzzleloader.htm)

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/12570/bp-design-eventual-rifle-build (http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/12570/bp-design-eventual-rifle-build)

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/10847/idea-smokeless-muzzle-loader (http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/10847/idea-smokeless-muzzle-loader)

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/13487/building-full-form-bullet-sizing\ (http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/13487/building-full-form-bullet-sizing/)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmG2p2am6F0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmG2p2am6F0)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-qrmu4XlI8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-qrmu4XlI8)

http://www.prbullet.com/700.htm (http://www.prbullet.com/700.htm)

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/6553 (http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/6553)

http://www.dsscustomguns.com/custom-smokeless-muzzleloaders.aspx (http://www.dsscustomguns.com/custom-smokeless-muzzleloaders.aspx)

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/13224/new-dd-rem-700-plug (http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/13224/new-dd-rem-700-plug)

[oldred]

Thanks M-Tecs it's going to take me a while to digest all that but I am already learning that the breech plug is a lot more complicated than I thought, or at least good ones are. For the record the closest I will get to smokeless powder will be BH 209, I don't have the nerve to even consider smokeless although I think the rifle should be strong enough considering I intend to use 4140 for the receiver and a Green Mountain 4140 barrel blank, looks like the BP only barrels are out due to the painfully slow twist rates available. The reason I wanted to use a BP barrel was to use the same ammo that I use for my 45 and 50 caliber sidelocks but that was just a thought and was not something I was going to insist on. I have a 26" Octagon (tapered) Green Mountain 458 caliber barrel with a 1-18" twist, it might be a good choice with the Lee 459-500-3R bullets I use in my 45-90 but I would cast these from pure lead. I also have a left over piece of that barrel blank about two inches long that would make a good sizer like some of you guys have been talking about, until now I hadn't even thought about doing that!

[oldred]

Well this breech plug thing is going to get complicated it would seem, I suppose most any plug could be made to work but it looks as if all of them leak except for the Savage. I have searched in vain for good pics of the business end of that plug and what I have read about it leaves me a bit confused about the interaction of the bolt and the plug itself and what part the bolt plays in supporting the primer. With this design I have in mind, which of course is a falling block, the breach must be sealed by the block rising up against it so other than just a flat surface to press against the plug/primer there is no way enclose anything like the bolt does on the Savage, or at least that's what I "think" I understand about how the Savage works. If anyone has one of these rifles or is just familiar with the way that breach plug/bolt/primer design works I would greatly appreciate any input I can get as to how it might work with a sliding breach block.

A pic of the primer end of the Savage breach plug would REALLY be nice! :mrgreen:

[Tatume]

Red,

The Savage breech plug should work just fine with a falling block action. As I said, I have one in an H&R tip-up action. I'll take a couple of photos of the plug, installed and free, and post them in a bit.

Savage appears to have stopped making 10ML-II rifles, but

http://smokelessmz.com/index.html

has breech plugs for $30, and replacement vent liners for $3.10 each.

Take care, Tom

[doc1876]

you know I think if you get a '63 or '59 Sharps, you could be real happy, as you have most of the work done, and barrel it however you wish. I am doing this with a Shiloh '63 and I am putting a .45 octagon Badger on it and turning it into a J.P.Gemmer. Just a thought..........

[Tatume]

Savage 10ML-II breech plug installed in H&R 45-70 Handi-rifle
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/Moscheutos/IMGP4155_zps2071eb60.jpg

Breech plug, primer end, w/ 3/8" nut driver for installation and removal
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/Moscheutos/IMGP4159_zps7812df81.jpg

Breech plug, vent liner end, removed or installed with Allen wrench (not shown)
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/Moscheutos/IMGP4162_zpsd66b3c3b.jpg

[oldred]

Thanks Tatume that tells me a LOT! So far it was sounding good but I just could not picture the darn thing from just reading about it and I just wasn't sure whether or not if the bolt played an important role in making the thing work, looks like it's exactly what I need. The breech plugs I have looked at so far do not surround the primer completely and in fact the Traditions plug I am looking at right now has two very wide slots extending all the way to the bottom of the primer and the primer simply rests against the flash hole, I have no doubt the blow back from such a crude design would be horrible!

One more thing, does your extractor pull the spent primer or do you pull it with your fingers? I think it should be very easy to reach it with that break action but I probably will need an extractor for the high wall due to the cramped access.

[oldred]

you know I think if you get a '63 or '59 Sharps, you could be real happy, as you have most of the work done, and barrel it however you wish. I am doing this with a Shiloh '63 and I am putting a .45 octagon Badger on it and turning it into a J.P.Gemmer. Just a thought..........


We all gotta love the Sharps! I mean what's not to like about a Sharps? :grin:

When I first started out to build my scratch built rifle the Sharps was definitely a consideration and still on my "hope to do one day" list but for simplicity's sake I chose the High Wall plus I have always wanted one! The first one was a full size heavy octagon barrel version in 45-90 while the one I just completed is a lightweight scaled down High Wall in 22 WMR, this will be my third, and probably last, High Wall and at this point I have most of the bugs worked out of the building process so it probably will go much quicker than starting from scratch on another design, and while I now want this in-line ML the the Sharps is still tempting!

[Tatume]

The extractor does not engage the 209 primer, and I do indeed pull it out with my fingers. I think you could reach it with your fingers in a High Wall too. I've owned several and still own one now, and access to the chamber is not that cramped. But, I have fairly slim fingers.

However, on another rifle I own it is very difficult to reach the spent primer to pull it out. I made a little tool that looks like a rod with a miniature shell holder machined into the end. I reach into the breech area with the rod and hook the little shell holder part on the spent primer and give a little twist and pull. It comes right out, and is usually retained by the tool. Then I give it a little spin in my finger tips, and the primer is flipped away.

This is such a neat little tool, that if other inline shooters see you with it they will probably ask you to make more.

[Tatume]

The scaled down 22 magnum version of this rifle was already set up as a switch barrel by loosely copying the Ruger 1022 barrel attachment and this design could be refined even further for quick-n-easy barrel removal for cleaning, …

There is no need to remove the barrel for cleaning if you use a Savage breech plug. The plug comes out so easily that I pull it for wiping between shots, just so I don’t risk nicking the muzzle.


… it might look kind of odd seeing a High Wall with a ramrod under the barrel but then maybe not?

The High Wall Musket in 22 LR chambering did not have a cleaning rod, but it did have a full stock that would have looked perfectly at home with one.