Steyr M95/30 cast loads

[ukrifleman]

I have just done a deal for a Steyr M95/30 Stutzen in 8x56R.

Can anyone give me some pointers to a good cast load?

ukrifleman.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Here's an honest answer for you. I've got 5 of the cute little things, 3 Steyr and 2 Budapest, and I've never gotten any of them to shoot well. I'm sure that someone on this forum of experts has done so, and perhaps we shall both learn something. I slugged the bores of mine (probably a good place for you to start) and although it's supposed to measure .329 the closest of the 5 rifles measured .332 and the largest .336, with the others falling everywhere in between. I bought one of the Lee molds and phoned the company about the poor results I was getting, hoping to get a good load from them. The fellow I talked with said, "Yeah--mine doesn't work very well either. I get about 8 inch groups at 100 yds." This is a project that I plan to revisit.......someday.

[ukrifleman]

Thanks for the reply (I think!) I haven't got hold of it yet, but when I do, I will certainly slug the bore for starters.

I just hope that the bore slugs somewhere near .329.

ukrifleman.

[Brett Ross]

I used C.E Harris' starting load 16g of 2400 and worked up to my hunting load. All shoot good , 3 shot 3" groups. This is one of favorite mil-surps and my late season deer rifle.

[Bjornb]

After buying one of these rifles I went through the usual motions, bought the Lee 329 mould, made brass from 7.62 Russian cases etc. Then I mentioned in an email to Buckshot that I was trying to shoot a Steyr. He informed me that the only boolit he would recommend for this rifle was the Lee 338 ( I believe there's only one), sized down to .335. So he made me a push-thru sizer, which I used after crimping on the gas check and lubing with a .338 H&I die. That boolit over 16 grs. 2400 immediately shot 1 1/2 inches at 50 yards with the crummy iron sights. I'm pretty happy with that since my eyes can't see out to a hundred even on a good day.

[Charley]

Yep. the Lee .338 sized to .334 or .335 work MUCH better than the Lee .329 bullet. It's great for the 8x56 or 8x60 Kropatschek, but not the Mannlichers.

[ukrifleman]

Thanks to all for the replies, as soon as I take possession of the rifle, I will slug the bore and take it from there.

ukrifleman.

[Intel6]

I have gone through this also with my M95. I have a .334" sizer but when I use bullets sized that big I split case necks when trying to seat them. Are you guys using a larger neck expander? if you are is it custom or something off the shelf?

Thanks,

Neal in AZ

[Bjornb]

I never had any real 8x56 brass, and just fireformed 7.62x54R cases. That leaves virtually no neck (case comes out about 2mm short), and so far I've been lucky using just the Lee expander. I won't be shooting this rifle enough to justify a custom M die insert from Buckshot. That would be the way to go if I was to shoot any volume.

[Buckshot]

...........Yup, ya wanna slug the beast first. Hopefully you got a couple clips with it? You CAN single load and the extractor should slip over the rim, but you really don't want to have to do that. The clips will allow the case rim to slide up behind the claw of the extractor as it feeds. The extractors are akin to unobtainium. If you should happen across a loose one at say, a boot sale, buy it! Short of selling the wife or a couple kids to raise the cash, buy it.

Next up is the fact that the actions are stout and very well made. Generally the trigger on most suck (not to put too fine a point on it). They're like squeezing a plum. Kinda like the trigger on a M91 Mosin Nagant. The real problem with the vast majority of these are the generous dimensions of the chamber, throat, leade and barrel (bore AND groove).

http://www.fototime.com/CBEAAE5A40D244A/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/F2618D4764522E3/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/3F99F55C9811736/standard.jpg

The above is one that had a TERRIBLE barrel and I converted it to 30-40 Krag. The 303 British would be a similar conversion. It shoots very accurately indeed, which proves to me the obvious problems as stated above. Still has that terrible trigger but that can be gotten used to.

http://www.fototime.com/00C73BAA827D746/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/749F5ACFFD11D67/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/64017608D111BD0/standard.jpg

This is a really pretty M95 that is all matching. Even the middle and front band match. However it has the same dimensionitis as my other 2 and any others I've heard about. For example using this M95, it has a .334" groove. Oddly enough most barrels seem to share a more realistic bore diameter of about .316". That's what this one has. So with a .334" groove the average person might figure a .335" boolit would be good. And, well yes it DOES work. But consider this. The bore form is almost 50/50 with the lands and grooves of almost equal width.

That means when that .335" slug finally reaches the lands (haven't mentioned the throat and leade yet!) each of the 4 lands has to displace ALMOST 0.010" of lead. Common grooves are say, 0.004" deep. The best (cheapest) design to use is the Lee C338-220-R. It will drop a slug of close to .340" with most harder alloys. Just for fun I tried it, and the M95 WILL chamber a cartridge with a .340" OD boolit. Imagine firing a .340" slug into a .335" x .316" tube! that's a BUNCH of lead being moved around.

http://www.fototime.com/B28CF43324320EC/standard.jpg

This is the ubiquitous 'Oldfeller' or Frankenstein slug designed FOR the 8x56R cartridge. This OAL is 3.045" and chambered in the M95/31. You can see that it barely touches the lands. Loaded in the M95 there is no engraving whatsoever. So it not only has a generous throat OD, it has a considerable leade. In order for this slug to engrave in the M95, it has to be seated out another full 1/10th (0.100") inch. SHAZAM!

http://www.fototime.com/E5F797678DB6438/standard.jpg

These are the slugs I've tried in my M95 and 2 M95/31's (or 95/34's? I forget).
A) This is a special order design from Saeco for some 33 cal. It's a tapered FNPB of 205grs and actually shot VERY well from the M95. It was unsized at .336" and velocities were kept to about 1200 - 1250 fps.

B) This is the Lee 220 gr 338 slug. It has shot so-so and it's main problem (for this application) is it's shallow lube grooves.

C) This is the RCBS design for the 205gr 338 and is (or was) a special order. It did about as well as the Lee.

D) This is the Oldfeller 'Frankenstein' slug designed FOR the 8x56R and it was the best shooter of all, by far.

But when you have such a broad range of dimensions it's a tall order for one to be the best, but this one comes the closest in my 3 carbines and the shooting I've done with them. If you're going to use the 338 cast boolits the best way to size them is to use a .338" or .340" lube die and then run them up through a suitably sized push through sizer to reduce their OD (if you need to).

Boxer primed brass IS available from Graff & Son, made by Privi-Partisan and is great stuff. As Bjorn mentioned you can use 7.62 x54R, or if you have a pal with a lathe you can also make it from 45-70 brass. When I first started out with these things the only brass was late 30's Austrian Berdan primed corrosive ammo featuring a very modern looking 208gr FMJ spitzer boat tail at 2300+ fps. The carbine backs smartly off the bullet with that stuff. Anyway, in order to shoot them I converted the milsurp stuff to use 209 shotshell primers. You also need ot do a search for 8x56R, M95 Straight pull, and M95 Mannlicher carbine for more info.

...............Buckshot

[muskeg13]

Both the dimensions and performance of the 8x56r and .33 Winchester are pretty close. Both launch ~.33 caliber (factory ~200 gr jacketed) projectiles at 2200-2300 fps. While the Winchester case is a little larger at the rim and base, the M95 case is a bit longer and is loaded to what I'd guess to be a much higher pressure. Does anyone know what the normal operating pressures were/are for the Nazi thumpers? If I can ever get around to working up a suitable load, I think my little carbine would make great hunting rifle for moose or bear.

[sthwestvictoria]

I don't have one so can't offer any advice. However there was an interesting podcast with Ian McCollum from Forgottenweapons (http://www.forgottenweapons.com/) last week on the gunnation podcast (http://www.gunnation.us/2014/06/6-4-2014episode102-armed-but-not-polite.html), talking about this self-same rifle. His take on things was to look out for the ones that were converted to 8x57mm by the Yugoslavia services around 1924 as a easier way to get shooting.

[ukrifleman]

...........Yup, ya wanna slug the beast first. Hopefully you got a couple clips with it? You CAN single load and the extractor should slip over the rim, but you really don't want to have to do that. The clips will allow the case rim to slide up behind the claw of the extractor as it feeds. The extractors are akin to unobtainium. If you should happen across a loose one at say, a boot sale, buy it! Short of selling the wife or a couple kids to raise the cash, buy it.

Next up is the fact that the actions are stout and very well made. Generally the trigger on most suck (not to put too fine a point on it). They're like squeezing a plum. Kinda like the trigger on a M91 Mosin Nagant. The real problem with the vast majority of these are the generous dimensions of the chamber, throat, leade and barrel (bore AND groove).

http://www.fototime.com/CBEAAE5A40D244A/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/F2618D4764522E3/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/3F99F55C9811736/standard.jpg

The above is one that had a TERRIBLE barrel and I converted it to 30-40 Krag. The 303 British would be a similar conversion. It shoots very accurately indeed, which proves to me the obvious problems as stated above. Still has that terrible trigger but that can be gotten used to.

http://www.fototime.com/00C73BAA827D746/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/749F5ACFFD11D67/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/64017608D111BD0/standard.jpg

This is a really pretty M95 that is all matching. Even the middle and front band match. However it has the same dimensionitis as my other 2 and any others I've heard about. For example using this M95, it has a .334" groove. Oddly enough most barrels seem to share a more realistic bore diameter of about .316". That's what this one has. So with a .334" groove the average person might figure a .335" boolit would be good. And, well yes it DOES work. But consider this. The bore form is almost 50/50 with the lands and grooves of almost equal width.

That means when that .335" slug finally reaches the lands (haven't mentioned the throat and leade yet!) each of the 4 lands has to displace ALMOST 0.010" of lead. Common grooves are say, 0.004" deep. The best (cheapest) design to use is the Lee C338-220-R. It will drop a slug of close to .340" with most harder alloys. Just for fun I tried it, and the M95 WILL chamber a cartridge with a .340" OD boolit. Imagine firing a .340" slug into a .335" x .316" tube! that's a BUNCH of lead being moved around.

http://www.fototime.com/B28CF43324320EC/standard.jpg

This is the ubiquitous 'Oldfeller' or Frankenstein slug designed FOR the 8x56R cartridge. This OAL is 3.045" and chambered in the M95/31. You can see that it barely touches the lands. Loaded in the M95 there is no engraving whatsoever. So it not only has a generous throat OD, it has a considerable leade. In order for this slug to engrave in the M95, it has to be seated out another full 1/10th (0.100") inch. SHAZAM!

http://www.fototime.com/E5F797678DB6438/standard.jpg

These are the slugs I've tried in my M95 and 2 M95/31's (or 95/34's? I forget).
A) This is a special order design from Saeco for some 33 cal. It's a tapered FNPB of 205grs and actually shot VERY well from the M95. It was unsized at .336" and velocities were kept to about 1200 - 1250 fps.

B) This is the Lee 220 gr 338 slug. It has shot so-so and it's main problem (for this application) is it's shallow lube grooves.

C) This is the RCBS design for the 205gr 338 and is (or was) a special order. It did about as well as the Lee.

D) This is the Oldfeller 'Frankenstein' slug designed FOR the 8x56R and it was the best shooter of all, by far.

But when you have such a broad range of dimensions it's a tall order for one to be the best, but this one comes the closest in my 3 carbines and the shooting I've done with them. If you're going to use the 338 cast boolits the best way to size them is to use a .338" or .340" lube die and then run them up through a suitably sized push through sizer to reduce their OD (if you need to).

Boxer primed brass IS available from Graff & Son, made by Privi-Partisan and is great stuff. As Bjorn mentioned you can use 7.62 x54R, or if you have a pal with a lathe you can also make it from 45-70 brass. When I first started out with these things the only brass was late 30's Austrian Berdan primed corrosive ammo featuring a very modern looking 208gr FMJ spitzer boat tail at 2300+ fps. The carbine backs smartly off the bullet with that stuff. Anyway, in order to shoot them I converted the milsurp stuff to use 209 shotshell primers. You also need ot do a search for 8x56R, M95 Straight pull, and M95 Mannlicher carbine for more info.

...............Buckshot

Thanks a million for all the great information, just what I was hoping for.

I have managed to find 4 chargers, but I am still waiting to take possession of the rifle.

Unfortunately this side of the pond, we have to apply to the police for a "variation" on our permit for each firearm before we can take possession and until it is granted, the Steyr will have to stay with the dealer.

This process can sometimes take weeks!

As previously said, the first stage is to slug the bore and take a chamber cast before deciding on a suitable bullet.

Right now, all I can do is wait.

ukrifleman.

[Buckshot]

Right now, all I can do is wait.

ukrifleman.

Waiting is slow death :-)

.............Buckshot

[Brett Ross]

Buckshot, I have not seen you post in a while, happy to know you are still prowling around.

[Fishman]

Buckshot, my Dad just gave me one of these little carbines and your post is MUCH appreciated. It's too bad the old feller redux seems to be doa.

[ukrifleman]

Right now, all I can do is wait.

ukrifleman.

Waiting is slow death :-)

.............Buckshot

Right you are! The good news is, that there are plenty of other toys in the cupboard to play with in the meantime.

ukrifleman.

[Wayne Smith]

Buckshot, my Dad just gave me one of these little carbines and your post is MUCH appreciated. It's too bad the old feller redux seems to be doa.

I'm sure it can be revived if there is more interest. I've forgotten who has it, but at least theoretically it is still available. I got mine years ago.

[DanM]

Accurate Molds has the Oldfeller Frankenstein mold that is designed for the 8x56R Steyer. I received mine in less than a week, and it is a beauty! Only shot bullets from it once so far, but it does look like it will be a keeper. http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=33-235B-D.png

[Fishman]

Accurate Molds has the Oldfeller Frankenstein mold that is designed for the 8x56R Steyer. I received mine in less than a week, and it is a beauty! Only shot bullets from it once so far, but it does look like it will be a keeper. http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=33-235B-D.png
Thank you!!

[Silfield]

Hello from a fellow uk rifleman,
I have recently been down this route with my 8mm Steyr Kropatschek and after doing various slugs (mine slugged out at 0.332" on the grooves) and a pound cast I brought a NOE 340220 mould from the recent group buy. It is a fantastic mould and Swede was a pleasure to deal with so I have no hesitation in recommending them to anyone. Only cast with it a couple of times now and am still learning but it is turning out some great bullets. I modified a Lee 0.329" lube/sizer die to 0.334" and made a new push through ram which, after rolling in Alox, sizes the bullets a treat. Heres my first attempt.

108109

I couldnt find a M die that was of the right size so I made a spud to fit into a Lee 8mm Lebel neck sizing die and after a fair bit of fiddling and polishing it seems to do the trick as well.

108110

Like you I am waiting for my variation to come through so I can bring it all together and get the old girl down the range for a bit of recoil therapy!
I you want a few of the boolits you are more than welcome-just pm me a delivery address and I will stick some in the post.
Good luck.

[ukrifleman]

Silfield, PM sent.

ukrifleman.

[petroid]

I wonder if 7.62x54r blanks could make good cases.http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.natchezss.com%2Fima ges%2Fproducts%2FOQPP76.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.natchezss.com%2Fproduct .cfm%3FcontentID%3DproductDetail%26prodID%3DOQPP76&h=1115&w=1510&tbnid=Q05TrhDhF-MW4M%3A&zoom=1&docid=E_dE_AhEwFieFM&hl=en&ei=m_mhU9ZJz5vIBKbMgdgM&tbm=isch&client=safari&ved=0CCAQMygFMAU&iact=rc&uact=3&page=1&start=0&ndsp=6

[Doc_Stihl]

I'd want to see what the flash hole looks like before I went too far.

[petroid]

Doc do you mean to make sure they are boxer primed? Or does this cartridge need a large flash hole

[45 2.1]

I wonder if 7.62x54r blanks could make good cases.http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.natchezss.com%2Fima ges%2Fproducts%2FOQPP76.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.natchezss.com%2Fproduct .cfm%3FcontentID%3DproductDetail%26prodID%3DOQPP76&h=1115&w=1510&tbnid=Q05TrhDhF-MW4M%3A&zoom=1&docid=E_dE_AhEwFieFM&hl=en&ei=m_mhU9ZJz5vIBKbMgdgM&tbm=isch&client=safari&ved=0CCAQMygFMAU&iact=rc&uact=3&page=1&start=0&ndsp=6

Those appear to be long enough, have a brass case and the box has PPU for privi partisan which usually means a boxer primer. Worth a try...... I will if I see some of them.

[Buckshot]

..............Graf & Son has PP 8x56R brass in stock :http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/793? for $63/100. Those blanks at $10/15 seem to be just a tad more expensive, and a bunch more work.

..............Buckshot

[leadman]

I read an article in an old American Rifleman in which the author claimed these rifles were made with more of a forcing cone rather than a leade. IIRC he had a like brand new rifle to work with.

To size a neck larger than normal I have used the Lee Universal Flaring Die with a custom made plug like an M die without threads. I had Jim inPhx make the first one then got my old Craftsman hobby lathe working to make additional plugs. Much easier than trying to make a plug for the Lyman M dies as there is no threading involved.

[pdgh59]

Hi
Slightly off topic, but what was the parent case you used to form for the Kropatschek? I tried using 348Win without success.

[Silfield]

Hi
Slightly off topic, but what was the parent case you used to form for the Kropatschek? I tried using 348Win without success.

I cheated and brought Bertram cases off the shelf. They are expensive here in the UK (nearly £3 each :shock:) but at the moment I dont have the means to try and form the cases from the 348 brass. I will just buy a few as and when I can afford them and make sure I look after them really well!

[dromia]

Ian if you are ever needing more Bertram for the kropatschek I can do them at £2.50 each for you.

[Silfield]

Ian if you are ever needing more Bertram for the kropatschek I can do them at £2.50 each for you.

Thanks Adam, thats very kind of you. I will take you up on the offer when I get her shooting properly and I have a few more pennies in the bank.:Luvcastboolits:

[HikerLT]

Hi All

I just got one of the frankenstein 8x56r molds from a group by at NOE.

QUESTION - what do you recommend for a neck expander die ? Is there a Lyman neck expander for the 8x56r ?