Any experience with Lee 358-140 SWC or TL 358-158SWC in S&W Model 10?

[Maven]

Does anyone have experience with either of these plain base molds in the S&W Mod. 10 (4" heavy bbl.) with low to mid-range loads of Unique (4.3 -4.4 grs.)? They are pictured in this link:http://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/hand-gun-bullet-molds/bullet-mold-6-cavity/

I'm looking at the 6 cavity versions and am seeking information about those molds, regardless of whether it is good, bad, or indifferent. Thanks in advance!

[fecmech]

No experience with the 140 but I've shot 20K+ of the TL 158 SWC. It is very accurate in every gun I've tried it in and that includes 4 different .357 rifles and a number of handguns both K frame Smiths and Ruger GP's and Blackhawks. It is a very unfussy bullet as to powder charges and seems to shoot well with anything I put behind it. I don't use it for magnum loads (I use 358429 for that) but run it 800 to 1000 fps in the handguns and up to a little over 1300 fps in the rifles. I TL it with Recluse lube or thinned alox coated with motor mica, both work great. The funny thing is I never would have bought the mold, it's kind of an ugly little critter to my eye. DavidR gave my his 6 cav a few years ago and it's turned out to be one of my favorites! You won't go wrong with that mold.

[Airman Basic]

Been loading the 140 grain from a 6 cavity for several years now. Works good in all my revolvers and cycles through my Rossi lever slick in 38 and 357. Tried your Unique load in 38 when I was low on Bullseye. About the same results as 3 grains of Bullseye. That Lee six cavity spents them out pretty fast.

[kungfustyle]

Great mold. I've used Tighgroup and it works great Unique should be fun to shoot to. Just size them right and you should be go. Oh, I used Llstuff and mixed it with Johnson's Past wax, little to no leading. At ten yards I could cover group with quarter from my model 19 S&W 357 4" close to your 10.
Used the load developed for my gun in a friends 6" Taurus and it did better than mine. Buy it you wont be sorry and if you want to get rid of it you can sell it in the s&s section.

[rintinglen]

I had better results with the 158 than the 140 grainer. The 140 grainer 2 cavity was my third mold, and I used it fairly extensively but it would not group as well as my WC boolits would so it went west. The 6 cavity 158 TL worked much better and is what I'd recommend, with it clearly understood that YMMV.

[blackpowder man]

I shot a lot of the lee tl 158s from a model 10 like yours and numerous other smiths with really good accuracy. I was using 4.7-4.8 grains of unique. I had a model 14 with the 8 3/8" barrel and it likes those about as good as wadcutter target loads. The thing about those loads with the model 10 was it shot them to poa.

[Bass Ackward]

Hey Paul. Came to look up something from days gone by and saw this excellent teaching tool here. And just because you are you ....................................

Pull up the page you linked and look across the 38 caliber line and especially at those two bullets. With smaller calibers you have less surface area for case neck tension to be effective and less bullet weight for inertia so seating depth is more critical in these. Use your experiences and all the comments on this thread and board to think over what I am about to point out. The ideal way to shoot a cast bullet is to fill the case with powder and bullet. So deep seating becomes more of a key to accuracy at lower velocity levels. Even in larger bores we still hear of accuracy advantages of smaller cases, take the 44 Special as an example. No more accurate than a 44 Mag, just the shorter case has more velocity range / load flexibility by reducing capacity that has to be filled. So it works with more combinations.

Across that line up, which bullet seats the deepest? As a result, which bullet across that line has the best reputation for low velocity accuracy? Which bullet designs there are more finicky to powders or have bad reputations for accuracy at reduced levels that gets blamed on everything like the bevel on the base etc? Every design there is accurate for somebody or they would be dropped for not selling. The point here is how they fill the case to produce .... consistent ignition at the level people want to run. If that jives with the powder of your choice, that bullet will produce accurate results. Coarse, like with everything else, if you can't win fair in life, cheat. So lets look at the 140 grainer. Design flexibility means you seat a design deeper than it was commonly designed by crimping over the front of the top band for lower velocity efforts and out to cut pressure for the faster runs. That crimp grove can be filled with lube too if need be. Compare the 140 now to the 158 and how do they fill the case?

So the choice of bullet comes down to you and what you want to do with it, your choice of lube, and your peeves and fetishes, not really the bullet. If you are macho and just want to see bullet sticking out of the case, I'd go with the 158. If you want the benefits of the lighter slug at lower levels, I just told you how to get it. Handguns (straight sided cases) and short range accuracy are all about consistent ignition at the velocity level you want to run. If you understand this, then you make better design choices and less poor mold selections. Can you tell I like the flexibility of the 140 for 38 Special because I can get higher velocity out of it too than I can with the 158 grainer? Now if you were talking the 357, then 158 hands down because enough case and higher pressures, you can still run that weight up.

[lbaize3]

I have a PPC revolver built on the Model 10 frame. It shoots the 148 grain WC with a very light load of bullseye. I consider the 148 grain load to be very accurate up to 50 yards.

[Maven]

So far the results are 2 in favor of the 140gr. SWC and 3 for the 158gr. SWC. but that's not enough information for me to make a decision. That's OK though since I don't need the mold immediately. Am still open to more opinions, of course, but Bass Ackward's advice seems to be sound.

"The ideal way to shoot a cast bullet is to fill the case with powder and bullet. So deep seating becomes more of a key to accuracy at lower velocity levels." ...Bass Ackward

Nice to see you posting again and thanks for the advice. Bass! Btw, I recently tried seating a Cramer WC "long," i.e., into the cylinder throats of that Mod. 10, thinking I would improve accuracy (3.1grs. CLAYS, roll crimp). Was I ever wrong! All I got for my troubles was difficult loading (into the cylinder) and an unacceptably large group. In short, I see your point about the lighter SWC even if it needs to be crimped over the front driving band to enhance accuracy. If I purchase that one, that will be the 1st experiment: Seated & crimped normally v. seated deeply enough to crimp over the 1st driving band. (As an aside, that didn't work with #358429 in my Ruger Blackhawk, but seating them longer was OK since the BH cylinder was long enough to allow that, i.e., both taper crimping or roll crimping in the crimp groove.)

[Bass Ackward]

(As an aside, that didn't work with #358429 in my Ruger Blackhawk, but seating them longer was OK since the BH cylinder was long enough to allow that, i.e., both taper crimping or roll crimping in the crimp groove.)

Using Unique and at this low of pressure? Naaaa, bet you were higher pressure. And was the barrel longer than 4". Gotta maintain perspective cause a 38 Special with even a 6" barrel adds to flexibility too.

Here your conditions were 4" 38 special using not more than 4.4 grains of Unique and that's maybe 8k / 10k pressure if everything is perfect, lower if it isn't. What else burns Unique at 10K and how do they do it? Shotguns, using super hot primers, compressed charge, heavy payloads, fold completely over the top. Catch my drift? For Unique with a 158 grain in a 4", 38 Sp, I had to use 6 grains for accuracy with a 358156. One hole but is over +P max at @ 22k psi. Still safe in a K-frame for many 000s of rounds.

A shorter (lighter) projectile should always be easier to stabilize at a lower velocity if ignition isn't a problem. Now folks know how to test if it is. Good luck, Paul.

[Old Caster]

Why not go with something even lighter. It takes less lead and they will shoot as well in a Model 10. The 10 doesn't have adjustable sights so where any of these bullets hit can be a game changer so maybe you should try to get some to experiment with before you buy.

[2wheelDuke]

I've had great luck with the TL 158 in K-frames with Bullseye, Unique, and Trail Boss (TB in the .357 cases.)

[Maven]

"The 10 doesn't have adjustable sights so where any of these bullets hit can be a game changer so maybe you should try to get some to experiment with before you buy." ...Old Caster

Excellent suggestion, Old Caster! Anyone have a few samples (unsized) that I can try? Btw, in spite of the fixed sights, my Mod. 10 shoots predictably @ 25 yds. with 148gr. WC's and ~ 160gr. SWC's (RCBS) and RN (Lyman) CB's as long as I size them to .358" and use lighter charges of Clays (3.1 - 3.5grs.) or Unique (4.3 - 4.4grs.).

[Old Caster]

Right. Sometimes it can be quite a chase to get them to zero. Unfortunately my 10 is not so forgiving. I even bought a 15 to counter that but had already spent hours tuning the 10 plus the 15 looks almost brand new and the 10 has a lot of holster wear so the 10 gets used. Both were police trade ins from J&G. Nothing more fun than shooting plate matches with a 6 shot revolver. Only one miss per round allowed. My favorite for accuracy is the RCBS 150 out of my 14 but they are 2 gang so I mold Lee 105's for plates. They are not as accurate but a lot faster to mold and do well enough for the plates and are more accurate at 50 yards out of my 14 than I would have expected. I can send you some of each if you would like.

[Maven]

Thanks for your generous offer OC, but I'm really looking for the 2 Lee SWC's (140 gr. grease groove & 158gr. TL). If you've got those, please let me know.

[Airman Basic]

Thanks for your generous offer OC, but I'm really looking for the 2 Lee SWC's (140 gr. grease groove & 158gr. TL). If you've got those, please let me know.
Got a slew of the 140's, but sized 358 and tumble lubed. Too dang hot to crank the ProMelt right now.

[Maven]

That's exactly the CB and diameter (.358") I am looking for, AB. If you're willing to part with 2 doz. or so, please send me a PM. Thanks in advance, Paul.

[2wheelDuke]

I don't believe I have any un-sized. I'm sure I could spare some of the 158's but they're ready to load, sized .358 and lubed in 45-45-10.

[Maven]

I don't believe I have any un-sized. I'm sure I could spare some of the 158's but they're ready to load, sized .358 and lubed in 45-45-10.

2wDuke,

That's exactly what I'm after, Duke. If you can spare 2 doz. or so, I'd appreciate it! PM to follow.

[Lefty Red]

I have some, if you are still in need of them.

[Larry Gibson]

Maven

I've found the TL358-158-SWC to be a very accurate bullet in the 38 SPL, especially if care is taken to cast quality bullets. I use the 6 cavity mould BTW and find it very satisfactory when I slow down and cast for quality instead of quantity. When cast of 40-1 or 30-1 alloy I size them at .358 and lube all but the top lube groove with BAC. TLing with LLA using a light coat and let dry thoroughly works as well. I do a good visual inspection and reject any with any defects. I load them over 3.5 gr Bullseye in W-W cases with a WSP primer. Accuracy is superb in my 5" M15 and in any other M10/M15/M19 or my Ruger Security Six I also shoot them in. I do believe this load equals or exceeds any other loads, including factory WCs, that I used back in my PPC days.

As Bass Ackwards says; "The point here is how they fill the case to produce .... consistent ignition at the level people want to run. If that jives with the powder of your choice, that bullet will produce accurate results." Bullseye and a couple other powders will give that consistent ignition. Unique with "low to mid- range" level loads generally does not because it does not reach sufficient psi for consistent burn until 5 - 6 gr is used with the 150 - 158 gr bullet. Testing with a chronograph and particularly shooting groups at 50 yards will aptly demonstrated that. Many do use such low level Unique loads quite satisfactory for short range casual shooting and plinking with success. That heavy barreled M10 is quite capable of excellent accuracy at 50 yards though. Just depends on what you want but Bullseye will work better with either bullet for the load levels you want.

Larry Gibson

[Maven]

Larry, Thanks so much for your insightful comments. Thus far, the 158gr. SWC is favored over the 140gr. SWC (6favorable comments for the 158gr. CB v. 3 for the lighter one). I've got samples of each coming thanks to the generosity of Airman Basic and 2wheel Duke, so I can see how they perform in my Mod. 10.* That's a good thing since I'm not committed to either design. The tip about using B'eye is especially useful too. Having no B'eye on hand, I'll use the original Hodgdon Clays (~3grs.) in place of it or Unique, which I often use.

Lefty Red, Thanks for your offer, but I've already got some of those coming my way from Airman Basic and 2wheel Duke.


*I'll have to test at 25 yds. though as the [indoor] range I'll be using next winter is limited to that distance.

[Maven]

A big "Thank You" to Airman Basic and 2wheelDuke for sending me samples of the CB's I was interested in. Thank you to Bass Ackwards and Larry Gibson for their most insightful advice about the aforementioned CB designs. Although I've got batches of each loaded to test against a known CB, I won't be testing them until next week, i.e., if the weather cooperates. Lately the weather has been nice...for ducks!;-)

[Gene Perryman]

I don't have any experience with the 140, but I've shot several thousand of the TL 158's thru my 686. They come out of the mold at .359 - .360 using WW's and lubed with LLA cut 50%. They are not resized. Per Ed Harris' recommendation, they are seated 1.55 over 3.5/BE or 3.5 to 3.7/TGP and then a light roll crimp with the Lee Factory Crimp die. I prefer the BE, but I can't find either here now!
Gene

[Combat Diver]

I've got a Lee .358 150gr LSWCHP that has one big issue. Dang thing is only a single cavity! Great bullet for my Smith 442.


CD

[bedbugbilly]

I cast the Lee 358-158-TL out of range lead - they drop from my mold right around 358. I lube in a lox and paste wax. I use BE - I have some Unique but have never loaded with it as I prefer the BE. I shoot them out of my 4" Smith Combat Masterpiece, 5" Smith M & P (pre 10) and Ruger New Vaquero. I load 'em mild to mid-range and I find it to be a very accurate boolit.

At first, I was a little hesitant to get a TL mold but after casting / shooting that particular boolit - I'm very pleased with it. It loads easy and I seat to the top ring and just use a moderate roll crimp on it.

[wv109323]

One thing I ran into with the 158 GN. SWC is that it may need to be pushed around 825FPS for the best accuracy with some powders. It seems accuracy at certain velocities is powder dependent. Some powders I could get decent accuracy with 750 FPS but with Bullseye and WW231 I had to go pretty hot 825-840 FPS. I used 4.0 gns of Bullseye for a 10 shot group of 2 1/8" at 50 yards. With 4.5 gns of WW231 I got 9 shots at 1 5/8" at 50 yards. Unique was best around 4.4 or 4.5 gns. IIRC, those groups were around 3" at 50 yards. I do not have that info in front of me. I settled on 3.5 gns. of WST for my loads. Accuracy with these is right at 2 3/4" but is much more pleasant to shoot and control in competition. I tested a M-14 with 6" barrel mounted in a Ransom Rest. My bullets were a RCBS 158 RN. and 158 NEI SWC. Accuracy between the two bullets was the same but the RCBS was a little harder to cast with the flat base and get that good square base.. The NEI has a small bevel base.Both were sized at .3577 with Carnuba Red. (The size through my .358 Star sizing die.) I know this is not the mold you are looking at but I though the info might help. I think 4.4 GN. of Unique will do fine in your Model 10.