Need a little direction on my SSR

[Beagle333]

My Auburins SSR, MGR-1 D4825, has a "1" and a "2" on the power side of it... it does not have the T1 and L1 that most have. Under the "1" it has "25A", and under the "2" it has 50/60HZ.
The instruction manual from Auburins is for another model (the numbers changed) and the diagram for that one has the L1 and T1 on it, so I don't know which is which on this one? Or if it even matters.

Here's a pic of the thing.
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PID/pid005_zpsf09a5461.jpg

I have my black wire coming into my box from my male 110 plug and I don't know which it connects to (terminal #1 or #2). Then I think I'm supposed to connect the other terminal to the outgoing black wire on my female 110 plug (which will be going to the pot.)

Any help available on that?

This is the SSR http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_30&products_id=9
And these are the directions it links to:
http://www.auberins.com/SSR%20Series-RS1A.pdf
Supposedly mine corresponds with the old model #RS1A40D25

Thanks!
Chuck. :popcorn:

[slim1836]

107182Here's a simple diagram. The only thing wrong is that the wire from "L1 to terminal 1 is a hot wire (Black). Hope this helps. Perhaps others will chime in to back me up or steer you in another direction. It worked for me.

Slim

[Jailer]

I have my black wire coming into my box from my male 110 plug and I don't know which it connects to (terminal #1 or #2). Then I think I'm supposed to connect the other terminal to the outgoing black wire on my female 110 plug (which will be going to the pot.)



It really doesn't matter which one gets hooked to 1 or 2. All it is is an in line switch controlled by the PID. Doesn't matter which one you hook to as long as power comes in on one side and goes out on the other to the device you are powering.

[Beagle333]

It really doesn't matter which one gets hooked to 1 or 2. All it is is an in line switch controlled by the PID. Doesn't matter which one you hook to as long as power comes in on one side and goes out on the other to the device you are powering.

I had read that about the PID, but I didn't know if it applied to the SSR as well. I was wondering why they would bother to label them L1 and T1 on some of them if it didn't matter.
Thanks for the advice!!
Chuck. :grin:

[Beagle333]

And.... so here's a cartoon drawing of my wiring before going in the box.
I know the lights are pretty much meaningless, but I got a few of em and... I like lights. ;)
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PID/0e6ba9e5-64d9-4bfa-b385-26586157e765_zpsbb38c04e.jpg

[jsizemore]

Looks like you got it figured out.

[mdi]

I've always considered an SSR a switch controlled by a low voltage. From your pic, #3 is the positive from the control, low voltage source. #4 is the ground for the control side. #1 is the guzzinta (tech speak for goes into), and #2 is the guzzoutta (goes out of). The notation on the top of the label just tells you the SSR is rated for 25 amps, switching between 9 to 480 volts AC at 50 to 60 Hz (cycles)...

[Beagle333]

I'm gonna solder and connect all this junk together this weekend. I was just nervous about doing it without letting someone a little more familiar with these components take a look at it first. :D

[Handloader109]

The power looks right. BUT, BUT BUT!!! DO NOT HOOK UP YOUR THEROMOCOUPLE OUTLET WITH REGULAR WIRE! You Have to hook up the thermocouple to the controller with supplied wire. You will Not read anywhere near the actual temperature if you use copper or any other wire other than thermocouple extension wire. Looks like you have enough wire without using any extension on it. The reason is the wire is plated with specific metal content any just plain wire introduces error. Sorry for the caps, but this is important.

[Beagle333]

Thanks for that tip. I was warned already about that (I woulda mess it up tho!) and have cut some wire from a 6' TC that I bought with a K plug already on the end of it. So I'll be sure to use the same type of wire all the way to the PID. But I do appreciate any warnings and concerns! And it may also help anybody else who might be building one and reading this. :-D

[dikman]

Sorry, Handloader, but I'll have to disagree with you on that. I've built two PID's (different brands) for two pots and used ordinary wire to connect from the socket (I used BNC sockets) to the PID. I ran both and swapped the probe connections around to test them. Both read identical temperatures, irrespective of which probe was connected to which PID.

Likewise, you don't have to use those little flat plugs, they are simply a defacto standard that seems to have been adopted for temperature probes. There is nothing special about them. In fact, my BNC plugs/sockets are probably better because they have gold-plated pins (no corrosion).

For the temperatures we are working with, and the accuracy required, any variation from using the "incorrect" wire and fittings is going to be miniscule.

[Beagle333]

I'll have to test that "different TC wires" thing on my next one. :coffeecom

Incidentally.... I'm going to use 18ga lamp cord for the internal AC going through, and 22ga bell wire for everything else. I hope that'll handle it. I think I got a little overkill on the 14ga extension cord for the leads.

[dikman]

Beagle, the only time you're likely to get funny readings caused by the wiring is if you have dodgy connections somewhere. As long as any screw connections are tight, and everything is clean (no corrosion on any wires) then there's no reason things shouldn't work as expected. After all, the screw terminals on the PID's themselves aren't anything special, just ordinary plated terminals, and I seriously doubt if the crimp lugs that come attached to the K probes are anything special either.

[jsizemore]

The rated ampacity of 18ga. stranded lamp cord is 7 amps. I used my cheap Sperry induction multimeter to check the current draw of the entire device and got 6.7amps. I used reclaimed wire from a range for hookup wire.

[Beagle333]

Well... here it is. :holysheep Proof positive that anybody can build one of these!

I used a MFR box, because it was roomy, free, and unique! :D
You can't really tell it, but all the cutouts were reinforced with a layer of "cut up milk jug" plastic :p and taped over before being cut. I thought the cardboard might get fatigued after some use without some sort of support around the things I'd be pushing and pulling on. Also the PID, power switch, and K-plug have clips that need to snap into a properly sized rigid opening to keep them in place.
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PID/newest002_zpse9f5d610.jpg

The innards, unsorted:
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PID/newest001_zps990c3eb4.jpg

All wire-nutted up. I decided not to use the little terminal block. I'll use that in my next, smaller one.
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/newest004_zps1d25721f.jpg

And.... it works!
The green light tells me that the power is on, and the orange light tells me when it's sending power out.
'Both unneeded, but I had them and wanted to put them somewhere. ;)
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/newest007_zpsbe9ddb7d.jpg

Thanks for the helpful comments! :cool:

[Sensai]

Might want to rethink that SSR in a cardboard box! They can get pretty hot. I'd hate to see all of your hard work go up in smoke!

[Beagle333]

I got it bolted to one of these. 'Think it'll get hot enough to be a problem?
Heat sink link (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Heat-Sink-for-Solid-State-Relay-SSR-/250672045065?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a5d37dc09)

[tomme boy]

The type of wire is not going to make any difference on how it reads. I have worked on thousands of these things and most always had to have an extension to get back to the PID.

You do want to use some type of a heat sink. Just the metal box is good enough. You don't have to get as elaborate as some are doing. As long as the box has a vent it will be OK.

[dikman]

:holysheep!:awesome: 10/10 for ingenuity - but yeah, get it into a decent box, now that you know it works. That heatsink will get warm.

[6bg6ga]

And.... so here's a cartoon drawing of my wiring before going in the box.
I know the lights are pretty much meaningless, but I got a few of em and... I like lights. ;)
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PID/0e6ba9e5-64d9-4bfa-b385-26586157e765_zpsbb38c04e.jpg

I would put the fuse before the switch.

[Beagle333]

I would put the fuse before the switch.

Thanks. I can move em around when I select a final box for it. That was another reason for using wire nuts. I can shorten all the wires and use spade clips once I get it compacted. Now I know where nearly everything goes and I can more easily plan final locations and wire length needs.

The only thing not 100% functional is that the blue neon light in the switch doesn't come on. The switch is a DPST switch with 4 prongs on it, and I'm only using two. Perhaps I shoulda ran a white wire through it on the other side as well to get the light to work inside?

I am going to use this one for my lubesizer heater, most likely. I hooked it up tonight and left it on at 125° for over 4 hours and can't tell the SSR or sink is even room temp, so at least this app doesn't put much strain on it. I haven't tested it on a lead pot yet.... it's raining outside. :cool:

[6bg6ga]

And.... so here's a cartoon drawing of my wiring before going in the box.
I know the lights are pretty much meaningless, but I got a few of em and... I like lights. ;)
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PID/0e6ba9e5-64d9-4bfa-b385-26586157e765_zpsbb38c04e.jpg

When you look at your diagram you have a hot (blk wire) feeding one side of the light thru the switch and the neutral going to the other side of the light. You flip the switch and your light if its good and your connections are good will light.

One question.... are the two blk wires you have connected to the switch on the same side of the switch?

[Beagle333]

When you look at your diagram you have a hot (blk wire) feeding one side of the light thru the switch and the neutral going to the other side of the light. You flip the switch and your light if its good and your connections are good will light.

The green light (shown left of the fuse) will light properly. The blue light inside the switch does not light, but I'm thinking it needs the white wire ran through it as well, mebbe.


One question.... are the two blk wires you have connected to the switch on the same side of the switch?

Yes. The black wires are both on one side of the switch. It seemed to have separate sides to it. There is a plastic divider down the middle on the back of it. It functions fine, as far as it turns the power on to the entire box... but the blue light doesn't come on. Not a problem.... just a curiosity.

[6bg6ga]

The green light (shown left of the fuse) will light properly. The blue light inside the switch does not light, but I'm thinking it needs the white wire ran through it as well, mebbe.



Yes. The black wires are both on one side of the switch. It seemed to have separate sides to it. There is a plastic divider down the middle on the back of it. It functions fine, as far as it turns the power on to the entire box... but the blue light doesn't come on. Not a problem.... just a curiosity.

If you have a VOM meter you can easily check the connections or if you have the package the switch came in there will probably be a diagram on it.

[Handloader109]

I'll stand by my comment that the thermocouple should not be connected to std wire. For our purposes, what does 10 - 20 degree variance make, nothing. So use if you want. Won't blow it up.... But I never would have put together in a cardboard box :redneck: get that thing in a metal box! If you get called away from it, and forget to turn the thing off, you might not have a house. Total fire hazard Never acceptable. electricity and paper do not play well together.

[dikman]

Handloader, you may well be right about the wire, but I'm still waiting for someone to provide the technical specifications of the "probe" wire to show why it is necessary to only use that for a short extension. The only reasons I can see why that particular wire is used in the first place is that it's very fine wire and the insulation is obviously very tolerant of high temperatures (obviously very necessary at the probe end).

I still maintain that, certainly for our purposes, any variation that might occur due to using "non-probe" wire is going to be miniscule.

[6bg6ga]

I'll stand by my comment that the thermocouple should not be connected to std wire. For our purposes, what does 10 - 20 degree variance make, nothing. So use if you want. Won't blow it up.... But I never would have put together in a cardboard box :redneck: get that thing in a metal box! If you get called away from it, and forget to turn the thing off, you might not have a house. Total fire hazard Never acceptable. electricity and paper do not play well together.

I'm sure the builder will put it into a proper box. I believe he mocked it up to prove a working model, so relax. Standard wire will work fine this is not rocket science. Sure, it will be a few degrees off....so what. The same goes for the fancy thermocouple connectors. Are they needed? No, they are not and as a matter of fact a simple terminal strip will work just as good.

[Beagle333]

Now that I got things organized, I can put it in a much smaller box. I wanted some room to work until I figured out what was what. Now that I know where it goes, I can move things closer together, shorten the wires, use the terminal block instead of the nuts and clean up the whole look of the thing. I'm pretty happy that it works!
BTW, I did use a length of TC wire that I cut off the long TC lead, so it shouldn't be off any on the temp reading. I got the 6 footer from fleabay when I ordered it and so I got a good extra 3 feet of that woven-covered green/red TC wire left over. :grin:
Thanks, everybody!

[Handloader109]

Dikman, 6bg6ga,read my last post, that's what I said, what difference does 10-20 Degrees make, none to us. Beagle333 posts just lead me to think that he might really leave in a box. And my post was more to draw attention to a Very bad situation. DON'T forget that these posts will live on for other New casters in the future. I'm not willing to see dumb ideas posted without comment. Putting together a project that generates Heat in a paper box is not smart. It probably wouldn't ever flame, but we should not promote a safety risk. Even if the ssr was not in the box, it really isn't safe. Loose wire nut, =heat, =fire Nuff said.

[6bg6ga]

quote:

DON'T forget that these posts will live on for other New casters in the future. I'm not willing to see dumb ideas posted without comment.
end quote.


I don't think anyone has made you the "Post Cop" yet. My suggestion is this... don't call anyone's ideas dumb. Its kinds cocky and arrogant.

You have stated the obvious and that is cardboard isn't a safe box. To prejudge a member or what a member might do is questionable in my mind.

You stated cardboard is a fire hazzard which is a fact. Let it go there because we cannot hold hands with every member here or travel to their

homes to see if they make a project that is up to our standards.

[6bg6ga]

It has been asked of me in a PM if other models of PID could be used and the answer is yes. It doesn't have to be a MYPIN or Auber for example. There are other brands out there that will work. There are different ways to make your components work also.

Examples

Standard PID with an SSR output or laymans terms a DC voltage out of the PID that will control the SSR (solid state relay).

A PID with a simple relay can be used in a very elementary way and that is to use the relay portion to control one leg of a battery voltage to will go to a SSR. Example put the positive voltage of a 9 volt battery thru one relay contact of the PID and then to the SSR. The negative of the battery voltage will do directly to the SSR's negative control terminal. You will get MANY hours of life out of the simple 9 volt battery before it needs to be replaced.

Another example is to use a relay contact from the PID to control an external larger relay. You would be using the PID's relay to control the larger relays coil to turn it on. The larger relay with Large electrical contacts would handle the AC load of a large heater. The down side is the additional work in install a power supply for the large relay. The example would be a standard 24VDC relay coil would require a 24vDC power supply. The power supply would be turned on or off by the PID.

I was asked about having additional contacts available in a PID. Answer.. sure, why not? Extra contacts can be used to power low current items such as a blower that draws say 3A.

Caution on internal relay contacts..... Don't believe the ratings that are on the relays themselves. The reason is simple.. they come from China and most are labled 10A and when you examine them the contacts are of the 3A rating. You don't see a UL stamp on the relay either.

[Beagle333]

I said in post #21 and in post #28 that I was going to get a different box for the final product. Thanks again to all for the help.
Feel free to continue hashing out the theoretical wiring issues if you must. The wires used here function just fine.

Don't try this at home, kids!

[6bg6ga]

Good! Some here require that you put this in big bold letters. Your talking metal box ...right? Just kidding..

[dikman]

I suppose you could weld a box up out of 1/4" steel plate? :lol:

Handloader, I'm just wondering where you got the 10-20 degree variation from? :confused:

[6bg6ga]

We had a member here that was anal that said the probe connections HAD to be made with the special connectors like the yellow ones you can purchase. Why? Probably a resistance build up I would assume. The thing is if a good connection is made there is very very little resistance change and therefore no temperature change or difference. My PID control for my sizer is made from an old computer power supply case. Why? Cause its cheap and it lends itself to proper cooling of the SSR unit because you can mount a processor heatsink and fan assembly to it and have good cooling. It has a switch, power cord socket, and little hands and or paws cannot get into it.

Getting back to the yellow probe connectors vers a terminal strip connection. I've tried both. They both work fine and there is a possible degree or two maximum difference between the two. In my mind I like the terminal strip because its cheaper and I simply don't like the yellow connectors.

[Beagle333]

[QUOTE=6bg6ga;2820238My PID control for my sizer is made from an old computer power supply case. Why? Cause its cheap and it lends itself to proper cooling of the SSR unit because you can mount a processor heatsink and fan assembly to it and have good cooling. It has a switch, power cord socket, and little hands and or paws cannot get into it.[/QUOTE]

I have a dead computer here (Dell, tower model) that still has a working fan, but I didn't have a way to cut nice square and round holes in it for the component mounting, and I didn't want to buy some sort of power tool (or tools) just for this one application, and I didn't know where I wanted the holes to be, anyway, until I figured out where everything went and what the wires went to, in order.

I used the little yellow K plugs for the convenience of being able to leave one TC in the pot and one JB-Welded to the heater plate. Using a terminal block direct to the TC wouldn't allow easy swapping. I have no idea if the TC's agree on temp, but they are for different uses and I don't care about the accuracy. The precision is much more important. If my mold of choice for that day is casting well at 710°, I'm gonna write that down and set that every time I use that mold, no matter if it's really 680 or 750 in true temp. 8-)

I suppose I could have cut the ends off some of the dozen extension cords that I have mowed in half through the years and used those just as well. :wink:

[dikman]

Beagle, those cases are pretty thin metal, so if you can clamp a piece of wood to act as a backing piece where you want to cut then just drill a lot of holes, knock out the piece and use files to smooth it down. Doesn't have to be perfect.

As for the accuracy, my two TC's give identical readings regardless of which PID I use. This stuff is pretty good. I doubt if you're going to get any significant variation between any of them.

Btw, maybe you should get a petrol mower? Sounds like it might be safer.....:lol:.

[el34]

Perhaps both sides of the TC wire/connector issue are correct. A TC is formed at the junction of dissimilar metals, in the type K they are the alloys alumel and cromel. They are welded together at the end, called the 'bead'. These two dissimilar alloys generate a tiny voltage that varies with temperature- about 46 millionths of a volt per deg C.

Galvanic voltage generation exists with all dissimilar metals but at different rates. When type K wire is connected to non-type K conductors the same thing happens at that junction- a voltage is generated, but not on the same scale as cromel and alumel. It adds or subtracts itself to/from the TC voltage and alters the 46uV/degC signal, thus causing an error in the circuits that convert TC voltage to a temp reading.

20-30 deg error would be very undesirable in most places a TC is used. And that error is temperature dependent, not just a constant number. However, as dikman says, it doesn't mean that much to boolit casting.

The Omega website has datasheets for its connectors, listing the correct metal used for the contacts that corresponds to which type TC it is for. I tried to capture a bit of that for this post but ran into Adobe and other difficulties.

[6bg6ga]

Perhaps both sides of the TC wire/connector issue are correct. A TC is formed at the junction of dissimilar metals, in the type K they are the alloys alumel and cromel. They are welded together at the end, called the 'bead'. These two dissimilar alloys generate a tiny voltage that varies with temperature- about 46 millionths of a volt per deg C.

Galvanic voltage generation exists with all dissimilar metals but at different rates. When type K wire is connected to non-type K conductors the same thing happens at that junction- a voltage is generated, but not on the same scale as cromel and alumel. It adds or subtracts itself to/from the TC voltage and alters the 46uV/degC signal, thus causing an error in the circuits that convert TC voltage to a temp reading.

20-30 deg error would be very undesirable in most places a TC is used. And that error is temperature dependent, not just a constant number. However, as dikman says, it doesn't mean that much to boolit casting.

The Omega website has datasheets for its connectors, listing the correct metal used for the contacts that corresponds to which type TC it is for. I tried to capture a bit of that for this post but ran into Adobe and other difficulties.


For what we are doing here with the PID it just doesn't matter.

[el34]

For what we are doing here with the PID it just doesn't matter.

The lead might not care. A correction factor can be found and dialed in. However it would matter to the folks that just simply want things right, I'm pretty much in that camp, may be a personality disorder!

[Handloader109]

I'll step back into conversation, the info 6bg6ga gave is the answer. You will be adding another differential to the mix when you connect plain wire, but as I and others have then stated, what difference does it make? Absolutely none. Same argument as you get if you have two thermometers in same bath. One reads 100 at boiling water, the other reads 212,which one is right? Both. If your pid reads 700 and mine reads 1000 with the same lead, which one is right? Both. BTW, I cut out the holes for my pid with a cheap jigsaw and used a file to creap up to good fit.

[el34]

If your pid reads 700 and mine reads 1000 with the same lead, which one is right? Both.

Hmm, I'm gonna have to ponder that one!

[6bg6ga]

I'll step back into conversation, the info 6bg6ga gave is the answer. You will be adding another differential to the mix when you connect plain wire, but as I and others have then stated, what difference does it make? Absolutely none. Same argument as you get if you have two thermometers in same bath. One reads 100 at boiling water, the other reads 212,which one is right? Both. If your pid reads 700 and mine reads 1000 with the same lead, which one is right? Both. BTW, I cut out the holes for my pid with a cheap jigsaw and used a file to creap up to good fit.

There is a setting you can make to correct this. Check your manual. Just for the sake of arguement the difference between plain wire or a terminal strip connection will not cause this much difference. One is simply not going to read 700 and the other 1000.

[dikman]

One reads 100 at boiling water, the other reads 212,which one is right? Both.

Correct. The reason why is obvious - one is reading Celsius and the other Fahrenheit.

[Beagle333]

The green light (shown left of the fuse) will light properly. The blue light inside the switch does not light, but I'm thinking it needs the white wire ran through it as well, mebbe.
The black wires are both on one side of the switch. It seemed to have separate sides to it. There is a plastic divider down the middle on the back of it. It functions fine, as far as it turns the power on to the entire box... but the blue light doesn't come on. Not a problem.... just a curiosity.

Update to that.... I ran a jumper from the unused top prong on the other side of the switch to the big white wire and now the blue switch lights up, so it did need power going through it from side to side as well.:cool: