NOE 358009 boolit and a 35 whelen

[35 shooter]

I recently finished some load work up with a 200 gr. noe in the whelen using imr 4350 powder. I've been wanting to work with a true heavyweight and after having such good luck with the 200 gr. i ordered a 358009 280 gr. noe mould double cavity with one pb and one gc.

I'm truly excited about this boolit. Could'nt have asked for a better fit in the throat and bore....seated in rem. cases trimmed to 2.486" i wound up with a overall seating depth of 3.182". This keeps the bottom of gc even with the base of the neck and gives .151" contact with rifling on the bore riding nose and also keeps about half of the nose band contacting in throat. The cases are full length sized for the most part, but the die is backed off about 1/2 turn.
This depth puts about 1/3 of top lube groove sticking out of case. I took the flare off the case mouth after seating. but used no crimp.

Boolits are sized to .360" and lubed with Ben's Red. This boolit has 3 grooves but i only lubed two. I can seat to the nose band on this boolit and still have good fit, but i lose a good bit of nose band contact doing that. Since this is for a single shot rifle (tc encore), i went for all the contact i could get and still not pull boolits when unloading.
I've only had two range trips with it so far but had very good luck with the first load i tried with 4350....Haven't chronoed anything yet, but will in the near future.

So far with the gc boolit: All loads shot at 100yds.
(1) 29 gr. 4759 no filler...about 3" 5 shot group....supposed to be about 1811 fps.
(2)30 gr. 4759 no filler... about 3.5" 5 shot group...no joy so far.

(3) 48 gr. imr 4350...1.354" 5 shots with foul shot....then 4 shots in 1.070"
There was hardly any to absolutely no case stretch with this load.

Next range trip i forgot to take the flare off case mouths and didn't realize it till i got to the range and noticed they chambered a bit tighter. Figured with that kind of line up in the chamber they would shoot even better but no such luck.
(1)48 gr.imr 4350... 5 shots 1.662"
(2)49 gr imr 4350...5 shots about 1 3/4"
(3)50 gr. imr 4350...5 shots about 3"
(4)51 gr.imr 4350...5 shots in 3.5"
(5)52 gr. imr 4350...5 shots in 2.2" I'm going to shoot this one again without the flare.
With the 200 gr. boolits imr 4350 shot really well at 50 gr. and then again at 54.5 gr. So i'm hoping the same thing happens with the 280 gr. and it shoots well again at 52.5 gr which would be 4.5 gr. up from the 48 gr. load. That would be the same 4.5 gr. spread as with the 200 gr. boolits. We'll see.

The most fun came with the pb boolit and 10 gr. of unique...5 shots in 2.278" @ 100 yds.

btw...rifle twist rate is 1:14

[richhodg66]

I have the 358009. I never got it (or much of anything else) to shoot well in a Remington 700 I had, but I'm going to give it a try in my .358 at some point. Unless I'm lucky enough to draw one of the few tags Kansas issues for elk each year, I doubt I'll ever have need of it, but it'll be interesting seeing what it will do.

That 358009 is a freight train! Despite the fact that it was a beefy rifle and I didn't hit max loads, recoil was pretty unpleasant from a bench. I really can't see me wanting more bullet in a .35 than this RCBS clone I'm working with will provide.

[Yodogsandman]

I've been reading your about your work with the 200 gr with great interest, thanks for sharing your results. Your information's been great. I'm looking forward to seeing more on how you do with the heavier boolits. I'm wondering how you're removing the flare from the case mouth. On my dies, the case mouth flare is removed as part of the bullet seating process. I adjust the die down to just before it starts to crimp on the mouth. Are you using a separate die for removing the flare... as a separate operation? If you are, what's the purpose?

[TXGunNut]

With the 200 gr. boolits imr 4350 shot really well at 50 gr. and then again at 54.5 gr. So i'm hoping the same thing happens with the 280 gr. and it shoots well again at 52.5 gr which would be 4.5 gr. up from the 48 gr. load. That would be the same 4.5 gr. spread as with the 200 gr. boolits. We'll see.-35 shooter

Very interesting, I'm finding very similar behavior in my boolits and rifle. I found a very narrow sweet spot with the 250grn boolit at a very sedate speed and I'm hoping to find a bit wider one a few steps up the ladder.
I'm thinking work with that PB boolit will be very rewarding, that boolit may not need a GC to be an effective hunting boolit.

[Ben]

A brick in the side of the head doesn't have to be moving too fast to be deadly.

Ben

[35 shooter]

Richhodg 66 you are absolutely correct. That 200 gr. will get the job done on anything you take on. I don't have real experience with cast hunting in rifles, but i know for sure what 250 gr. 44 cal. pistol boolits will do at only 900 to 1250 fps....nothing ever went very far after being hit with one.
When i was researching a bit on the 358009 boolit, i saw a few posts on shooting it in the .358 win. You might wind up with the gc below the neck but lots of folks seem to do that with some boolit designs anyway. Anyway, it's just such an old classic, i had to try it.

Yodogsandman yes, i'm using a lee factory crimp die as a seperate step on crimping. I used to use my regular rcbs seating die to seat and crimp either in seperate steps or at the same time. There was really no particular reason for going to the lee fcd except i just wanted to try one. So far i like the lee tool for rifle use. I like seating and crimping seperately to make sure i don't shave lead while doing it all in one step. I admit i've never had a problem doing it all in one step though. If i'm just removing flare i've been doing that with the lee too and it seems to work well for that too. Of course if they were widely flared i'd probably just use my seater die.

[35 shooter]

With the 200 gr. boolits imr 4350 shot really well at 50 gr. and then again at 54.5 gr. So i'm hoping the same thing happens with the 280 gr. and it shoots well again at 52.5 gr which would be 4.5 gr. up from the 48 gr. load. That would be the same 4.5 gr. spread as with the 200 gr. boolits. We'll see.-35 shooter

Very interesting, I'm finding very similar behavior in my boolits and rifle. I found a very narrow sweet spot with the 250grn boolit at a very sedate speed and I'm hoping to find a bit wider one a few steps up the ladder.
I'm thinking work with that PB boolit will be very rewarding, that boolit may not need a GC to be an effective hunting boolit.

I think your right. I found that same narrow window with 4350 in 3 different spots with the 200 gr. I couldn't move it a half gr. either way. Then 4 gr. or so up the ladder and it would come in again. The 3rd time was at 56 gr imr 4350 with the 200 gr. noe but i didn't go any further because i didn't think the straight ww ht was gonna take much more. I'll try it again one day just to see. So far it seems to be showing that same pattern with the 300 gr. I'm hoping i'll find out this wk. end.

And yes... the pb is too much fun, Ben's right about the brick thing...it doesn't have to move very fast. I didn't realize on my last range session that one load i tried with 4759 was right at 1400 fps. I didn't mean to shoot it that fast on the first time out. No leading though.

[Yodogsandman]

Thanks 35 shooter, that makes sense to me now. I got a Lee fcd... just to try out, for the SKS's and haven't used it yet.

Good work on your use of IMR4350, very informative. I have a partial can of it that I'll have to save to try it out.

Have you tried to dig a slug out of the banking yet? I tried to get one of my 300 gr at the beginning of spring. I reached in the hole about a foot but the frost kept me from getting to it.

[Shuz]

FWIW--I've been using the Lyman 358009 for 15 years with 3:1(COWW's:lino) heat treated to Bhn 22+, and 48g of AA4064. Velocity chrono's @ 2150fps. This load shoots a little over 1" at 100 yds and has accounted for 2 bull moose and 1 bull elk, as well as many white tailed deer. I've only recovered one boolit during that time, and it had absolutely no expansion, nor did I expect any, but it also still weighed 275g! The twist rate on this .35 Whelen 700, is 1:12". Hope this may be of some help to you .35 Whelen and 358009 fans out there!--Shuz

[35 shooter]

Yodogsandman i did try to recover some lol. They do bore quite a hole. Think i'll have to take a shovel to get to em. Btw the load work i did with 4350 on the 200 gr. boolits was just standing on 357maximum's shoulders. I did a lot of research here and found his old tests with it and it worked out great. I found where some used it with the 280's also but not much load data at all, so kinda on my own with this one, but at least had a vague idea on a starting point with 4350.

[35 shooter]

FWIW--I've been using the Lyman 358009 for 15 years with 3:1(COWW's:lino) heat treated to Bhn 22+, and 48g of AA4064. Velocity chrono's @ 2150fps. This load shoots a little over 1" at 100 yds and has accounted for 2 bull moose and 1 bull elk, as well as many white tailed deer. I've only recovered one boolit during that time, and it had absolutely no expansion, nor did I expect any, but it also still weighed 275g! The twist rate on this .35 Whelen 700, is 1:12". Hope this may be of some help to you .35 Whelen and 358009 fans out there!--Shuz

Shuz i'd be very interested to hear a bit more on the reactions you got when hunting with your alloy. In other words did you get many drt's or short blood trails and etc?
I've been a bit worried about that as i ht ww @ 465* because that's what shoots best so far in my whelen. I had it tested at 27 bhn by someone else as i didn't have a tester. I'm sure not looking for any expansion from it either but it sounds like yours is working just fine without it.
What about the wound channel size and exit holes? I've only used cast to hunt with in revolvers or muzzle loaders so i'm new to center fire rifles with it.

[Blammer]

my suggestion would be to water drop them, it should make getting groups easier.

with WW alloy they will still be soft enough to do the job for hunting.

[35 shooter]

Blammer thanks. I've been meaning to try it and see if it does as well. I started ht when i couldn't seem to get much past 1800 fps with any accuracy with straight ww. Guess i could try lower temp in oven too to get em down some. Been so busy working loads since last year and didn't want to change what was working. At least now though, i'll have something to compare with accuracy wise when i start changing bhn. I'll give it a try.

[Shuz]

35 shooter--The two bull moose I shot with the 358009 in my .35 Whelen, were taken in British Columbia in different years.The outfitter did the gutting and skinning chores and was more interested in getting the jobs done, than doing a post mortem on the boolits! He did recover one boolit that was lodged just in the hide of the off side and presented it to me after finding it whilst skinning. The elk I shot, was coming right at me and the boolit passed all the way thru and was never recovered. Same with the White tails, boolits pass on thru. IMHO, a boolit of this weight and diameter doesn't need to expand to kill quickly. I heat treat to get the accuracy I want at 2150 to 2200 fps. I also heat treat vs water drop to obtain consistency in the end product. If you have ever had boolits cling to either side of a mould when it is opened, you know that they are hitting the water at different temperatures. Also, articles that I have read that have been written by metalurgists, claim that sizing boolits after quenching makes the sides of the boolits touched by the dies, "work softened", even tho the center of the boolit is still hard. I want the sides to be tough to grip the rifling. I size, heat treat, and then apply lube in a slightly larger die. sometimes I even use the same die, and so far have not had any appreciable difference that I could detect. YMMV.

[Yodogsandman]

Shuz, Please accept my apologies if this wasn't you but, I seem to remember that the one boolit that was recovered had broke the bulls large shoulder ball on the near side, traveled through the chest and was found under the hide on the oft side. I only remember the story because I had the same result on a bull from a 250gr Nosler partition at 2500 ft/sec. Hit the shoulder ball and bullet was found under the oft side hide. I was very impressed by your terminal results. I also have no experience with using cast boolits in rifles on game, just my old .58 minnie balls in the muzzle loader. I'd love to use a boolit on my next moose. Thanks for sharing your experience with them. The 358009 appears to work real well for the job.

[TXGunNut]

My hunting boolits are mostly HT 50/50. I use that alloy as a step between ACCOWW and HTCOWW. I think it gives me a little more expansion and toughness than either of the COWW options but have only killed critters using the HT 50/50 alloy so can't say for sure. I didn't recover the boolits that didn't exit but a high percentage of DRT's is a good sign.
358009 is a classic hunting boolit, an alloy that gives good accuracy and holds together in game should be an awesome performer for you.

[35 shooter]

Thanks guys for all the info on what your doing with your alloys and the terminal results.
Now that i have good loads with my 200 gr. boolits kind of locked down, i can experiment a bit on boolit hardness and alloy mix and have something already "known" to compare too.

That comparison of Shuz's results to a nosler partition was very interesting.
Hope to get some shooting in tommorrow.

[Shuz]

Yodogsandman--I don't really remember if if the recovered boolit was the one you mentioned or not. One bull was killed in 1999, and the other was 2004, so there's been a bit of water passed over the dam since! There's no question in my mind that the 358009 is an excellent killer with good shot placement, but that can be said of a lot of other boolits as well.

[35 shooter]

Slipped out very early before church this morning. I was at the range and set up by 6:30 this morning. Kind of ran through everything quickly so i could get back in time.
First up were the plain base boolits: all shots @ 100 yds.
10 gr. unique...5 shots in 3.959"...so that load didn't hold up
10.5 gr. unique...5 in 3.242"
11 gr. unique...5 in 2.847"...gettin better
12 gr. unique...4 in .249" center to center best i could measure it. Stars lined up on this one. The only shot out was 1.738". The 4th shot chambered tight and i extracted it. You could tell when it was sized the top punch caught it pretty good on one side and gouged it. It was grabbing the rifling hard on one side but i shot it anyway. Don't know how i missed it when i was loading it, but i did. Think this is gonna be a good load, but doubt the stars will line up quite that well again.
13 gr. Red Dot...5 in 2.675"
Not sure what max would be with red dot and the 280 gr.....15 gr.?

Next up the gas check boolit:
52.5 gr. imr4350...5 in 3.959"
53 gr. imr4350...5 in 2.461"...but 2,3 and 4th shots were in .820"...i know i pulled the first shot big time. 5th shot was about 1.5" out from center so not too bad really. Bbl. was smoking hot on this group too, so i really think i need to shoot this one again. When "old contrary" shoots 1.5" or less, it usually holds up, so i'm hoping. Primers were beginning to flatten just a bit but still rounded edges and plenty of room left in the pocket. Recoil is beginning to make itself known, but not bad.
May have found a couple of loads on this trip...i'm thinking re-shoot 52 and 53 gr. of 4350 and definitely 12 gr. of unique. The 48 gr. load of 4350 has already gone in the log book. Gotta make sure next time i'm not in a rush...that doesn't work very well for me.[smilie=b:

[TXGunNut]

Sounds good, private range I shoot on doesn't allow shooting that early but at least you did your part to get the neighbors up in time for church, lol.
My top punch likes to buggar up a boolit now and then and it does seem to make a difference. Weighing boolits seems to cut down on fliers, light boolits possibly contain voids. Sounds like you have some good prospects for further tweaking.

[35 shooter]

That's the great thing about this range lol. First off, it's on state hunting land way back in the woods. No one really lives in ear shot of it. The other thing is, it's on the back side of the National Guards Camp Shelby, so the guns are booming over there all the time lol.

[sthwestvictoria]

FWIW--I've been using the Lyman 358009 for 15 years with 3:1(COWW's:lino) heat treated to Bhn 22+, and 48g of AA4064. Velocity chrono's @ 2150fps. This load shoots a little over 1" at 100 yds and has accounted for 2 bull moose and 1 bull elk, as well as many white tailed deer.

This is interesting - I have an accurate HT load however I thought the gospel was you should be using a softer alloy for hunting and so I have been trying to go softer however the accuracy drops right off:

I have an lovely accurate load with oven heat treated COWW, 2%tin:
http://i57.tinypic.com/106ye8n.jpg
and yesterday I shot these two groups, trying to arrive at a softer alloy for hunting:
http://i59.tinypic.com/2me8uf9.jpg
Apart from changing the alloy, everything about the load - primer, neck sized cases, same 42.0grains AR2206H (H4895), same OAL, same lube, same .358 sized, same gun, same range. The only difference and a reason to re-shoot the groups was some sun in the eyes at that time of day. There was a scope point of aim adjustment between the top target and lower two groups.
The Air cooled WW group is acceptable for hunting at a 2" group 100metres however I was impressed how much of a departure in accuracy there was from the Heat Treated group in the top target to the two lower groups.

I will re-shoot the two softer groups however maybe I should just be happy with the better accuracy of the HT load. If I used the HT load then I could also push the velocity up a bit from the current 1800fps.

[Shuz]

sthwestvictoria--I chased the "softer is better for hunting" theory for a while, but I came to the conclusion(duh), that an accurate heat treated boolit can be driven faster, thus with a better trajectory, and could improve my shot placement at further distances.

[35 shooter]

Fifteen years with the same load and the performance you've had with it speaks for itself. I'm glad all this came up.
The main thing i've been worried about is ww ht @ 27 bhn might be too brittle against bone. So maybe a little lead and or tin added to my hunting boolits will put me where i want to be. It certainly sounds like the .35 bore can do well without the expansion. Actually sounds like i just need to test em on something hard right where they are to see if i get break up. If they don't then problem solved. I'm liking the whelen more and more all the time.

[Shuz]

My alloy of 3:1 is 3 parts COWW to 1 part Lino. I do this for the tin in the lino, not the extra antimony. Seems to work well. Nowadays since lino is getting pretty pricy, I'm experimenting with COWW +1% tin, mixed 50/50 with pure lead. This experimenting has been with the .30-30 and .44 magnum. I still use the aforementioned 3:1 in my Whelen.

[Bjornb]

Shuz is being very modest. Here's the link to his writeup on the 358009: http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/The%20358009.pdf

[smoked turkey]

Thank you for posting the link Bjornb. Thanks to Shuz for the writeup. I have that in my "file" and plan to do some serious load work up with my Ruger model 77 and my 3589 mould. I will have to check my records later, but I believe my Ruger to be a 1/14 twist. I have not taken it hunting yet but plan to give it a go next deer season. I do realize that it really shines with larger animals, but we have to do with what we got. I plan to follow the water drop method in order to make the boolit bhn higher.

[35 shooter]

My crazy computer says gallery won't open on that file because i don't have latest updates or something. Guess i'll have to get my oldest son to check it out for me. I have seen some of shuz's old posts on that load but don't know if that's the one or not.

Loaded 52, 53, and 53.5 gr. of imr 4350 to try this weekend hopefully. Also loaded 12 and 13 gr. of unique for the pb boolit. The group i shot with 12 gr. was probably a fluke and never happen again. There were a lot of holes in my backing and the paper actually tore and folded under on the left side of that group, so it was really hard to tell what i had, but it WAS tight. The total width of that group from the tear to the outside edge of farthest hole was only .559"
Had to be a fluke,but we'll see.
I finally found some hard data for the 358009 but it is with aa4350 powder. It's a bit slower and of course has a different coating than imr. My brother requested the data from them and we were surprised to find they had it. It wasn't on their load data when i last looked but they sure sent him a print out on it. Anyway they list 55 gr. as max with aa4350 @2203 fps. They don't show compression with that load. Time to get the chrono out on the imr.
BTW...pressure with the aa4350 load is listed at 41,600 psi.

[35 shooter]

Had a fair day at the range today. I was pleased to find out the 12 gr. load of unique wasn't such a fluke after all with the pb boolit. The 48 gr. imr 4350 load has held up each time consistently keeping 5 shots in 1 1/2" or less except the one time i forgot to take the flare out of the case mouth that shot the 1.6" group.
Results from today @ 100 yds.:
(1) 12 gr. unique and pb boolit...4 shots in 1.065" after foul shot.
(2) 13 gr. unique and pb boolit...5 shots in 2.665"
(3) 52, gr. imr4350 and gc. boolit...5 shots in 1/2" wide by 4" vertical
(4) 53 gr. imr4350 and gc. boolit...5 shots in 4 3/4" vertical
(5) 53 1/2 gr. imr4350 and gc boolit...5 shots in 1. 721"

My 200 gr. boolits will shoot lights out at 54 1/2 gr. of imr4350 and it appears the 009 boolit is getting better again in this range. Still no pressure so far except on my shoulder and that's more of a big push...does get your attention though. I can tell the powder will be very close to the boolit base at 54 1/2 gr with the 358009.

[Yodogsandman]

Very encouraging results. Can't wait for your next range results. Hey, what's the difference in where the groups shoot on the target, between the pb and gc boolits?

[TXGunNut]

Very encouraging results. Can't wait for your next range results. Hey, what's the difference in where the groups shoot on the target, between the pb and gc boolits?

I'd SWAG it @ around 8".

[35 shooter]

Very encouraging results. Can't wait for your next range results. Hey, what's the difference in where the groups shoot on the target, between the pb and gc boolits?

My original sight in was with a 200 gr. boolit 2400 fps + @ 3.5" high @ 100yds. The 53 1/2gr. load with the 280 gr. gc boolit is only about a half inch under that and the unique loads are about 14 to 15" low with the pb. so far. One thing i love about the whelen is that it seems to be one of those calibers that shoots centered with any bullet or boolit weight. The only adjustment needed is vertical. At least this rifle is that way.
It also worked out well with another load that shoots well with the 200 gr. at 1800 fps that hits dead center @ 100 yds. with this same sight in....pretty easy to see why the 35 whelen has become my favorite caliber.:)

[TXGunNut]

Have you tried 2400 under that PB boolit?

[35 shooter]

TX wish i had some 2400 to try. I do have an old can of 4227 on hand. Also talked to NOE a bit about the pb and they seem to know folks that are running it at 1800 fps with no problem. I would like to try some aa3100 or aa8700 with it to fill the case and keep pressures down and run it 1800 to 2000 fps if i can get away with it. That particular boolit is probably gonna keep me busy at the range for the next year.

BTW my brother in co. has some aa4350 he's going to try with the 358009. If he "hits" a good load i'll post it.

[Yodogsandman]

+1 on the favorite caliber! That's nice having the 200 gr and 282 gr so close together!

[35 shooter]

Got a few 4759 loads to try with the pb tomorrow if the rain lets me. Not using a filler at this point (fillers always shoot best for me with 4759), just easing the speed up and check for leading. Also rechecking a load or two with the gc boolit and 4350. Gotta fire my melting pot up again and get some more cast, i'm running low on boolits!

[TXGunNut]

Always wanted to try 4759 but when I find it the price changes my mind. Isn't that one of the powders slated to be discontinued?
Might do a little casting myself today, range trip rained out. Loaded my last 360-235's for some 35 Rem loads last night.

[35 shooter]

Yes, 4759 is slated to be discontinued. I'm trying to make up my mind about stocking up on some more of it or not. It is a good powder for cast if you use a filler to take up the air space in the case, which is a bit of a hassle. Smaller capacity cases may not need the filler but my experience with it in the whelen says it cuts groups in half or better. It gets my 200 gr. boolits up to 2200 fps. easily with good accuracy. Shoots even better with 26 gr. at about 1800 fps. I don't like the hassle of using fillers,but the results were worth it in the accuracy department.

[TXGunNut]

I haven't ventured into fillers, I try instead to find powders with a load density of 95% or better. On loads with less than 95% density I use powders that aren't known to be position sensitive. I realize this limits my powder choices but I'm just not comfortable with fillers.
I've also wanted to try 5744 but it's only a little more common than 4759 around here, seldom see either.

[35 shooter]

Well my brother made a report on the aa4350 with his 280 gr. gc boolits. He was only shooting at 50 yards with 3 shot groups. 53 gr. went into 1/2" and 55 gr. printed a .9" with 2 touching so he's gonna shoot those two loads at a 100 yds. sometime this week.

[TXGunNut]

Did you swap him out of some RP 9 1/2's?

[35 shooter]

Lol I think he's still guarding em pretty close. They have seemed to have picked his overall accuracy up in his h&r. I'm gonna pick some up and give em a try eventually.

[TXGunNut]

I guess you didn't make it to the range yesterday, either. I didn't get my ammo loaded until too late, was doing too much piddling, straightening up and researching. Range bag sitting by the door, rifles are cleaned but one never made it to the safe. Might be a long week.

[35 shooter]

LOL you better move that range bag away from the door or you may suddenly decide not to show up for work one day this week.
Got rained out here for sunday but i may slip out for a while in the morning. Hope i haven't got that pb boolit pushed too fast with 4759, i hate cleanin lead out.

[35 shooter]

Took another range trip today.It's definitely getting hot in south central ms. Even when it's in the low 90's the heat index and humidity here raises it to over 100*. It's getting more like work than fun just to go shoot now.
The 53 1/2 gr. load that shot fairly well the other day had mostly vertical dispersion in it , so i was suspicious of that load and the vertical did show up again today.
The two main things i took away from this trip is that imr4350 looks like it is going to shoot better around the 54 to 54 1/2 gr. range just like it did with the 200 gr. boolits and Ben's Red lube is holding up fine in the heat.

100 yd. results:
(1) 48 gr. imr4350...5 shots in 1.578" from a whistle clean bbl. 1.1" after foul shot for 4 shots
(2) 53 1/2 gr. imr4350...5 shots about 5" vertical
(3) 54 gr. imr4350...5 shots 1.802" nicely rounded with only about 1 1/8" vertical

I did fire some rounds with the 280 gr. pb boolit and 4759 with no filler and ran it up to about 1750 fps according to a load manual. Just a very few fine specks of lead came out after running a brush through the bbl. after about 20 shots. I don't think there would have been any at all if i had used a filler. Also didn't get any accuracy without a filler with 4759 but i was just checking for a bit of speed and got it.

[Ben]

and Ben's Red lube is holding up fine in the heat.


Sounds good, keep squeezing the trigger.

Ben

[TXGunNut]

LOL you better move that range bag away from the door or you may suddenly decide not to show up for work one day this week.
Got rained out here for sunday but i may slip out for a while in the morning. -35 shooter

Been raining off and on since Sunday but the farmers are happy so I'm happy too. Might as well go to work since it's raining. ;-) Just checked, range bag still waiting patiently by the door. Shooting buddy had surgery on his hand yesterday so I'll probably have to shoot his guns too. :-)

[35 shooter]

Hate to hear about your shooting pardner. Hope all goes well with him. Looks like things are picking up a bit with that 280 on the high end with 4350...hope so anyway. I think the lack of vertical in that last group was a good sign. Hope you find a bug hole group with your 360318 soon!:Fire:

[TXGunNut]

Surgery went well, thanks. He and I are old pros with orthopods; me when I was young and clumsy, him now that he's old and worn out, lol. And no, we don't compare scars. We'd rather shoot.
I'm looking for a hunting load, I can't expect my rifle & loads to shoot bug hole groups when I generally can't do my part.
Don't give up on that BB load, high hopes for that one.

[35 shooter]

Surgery went well, thanks. He and I are old pros with orthopods; me when I was young and clumsy, him now that he's old and worn out, lol. And no, we don't compare scars. We'd rather shoot.
I'm looking for a hunting load, I can't expect my rifle & loads to shoot bug hole groups when I generally can't do my part.
Don't give up on that BB load, high hopes for that one.

Nah, no give up to it. Thinking about loading some reduced loads with 3031 and 4895 for a serious start with the pb boolit. Even reduced they may be a bit fast for it though. 4759 with a filler may be a better choice? Wish i could find aa3100 or 8700 locally as i think they would be perfect for it. Seems like powder is becoming more and more available lately locally, so maybe.

[TXGunNut]

I'm not convinced my 360318 really needs a GC, have considered PB'ing a few GC moulds. Need to chrono a few hunting loads, not sure the 360-235 in my 35 Rem needs one either. IF my rifle would feed that 358009 and I could get it to shoot accurately I'd be very happy with a PB 358009. Glad you got one cavity of each, that was a very good decision.

[35 shooter]

I'm glad noe offers the option in his moulds and that he had one in stock. Also glad the whelen has a neck that would accept it so well. I need to do some chrono work myself as it may turn out the 48 gr. 4350 gc load will be slow enough to work with the pb boolit too. I don't think it's gonna be much of a problem to get this boolit to shoot as that gc boolit just does'nt get out of 1 1/2" on the low end so far, and i haven't even tweaked seating depth yet. Getting it right on the high end has been a different story so far but i believe it'll do it.

[Yodogsandman]

You seem to be on the cusp of something good, maybe a little tweak is all you need. Can't wait to see your chrono reports. Maybe ES and SD will tell you something.

With my own 35 project, I'm just about all set to go. Got a scope mounted. Shot it and I'm now on paper. I cast a pot on 6/22, sized and H/T'd 6/23 and lubed 6/24.


35 shooter, this is my first time oven heat treating, how long are you waiting before shooting your bullets? I heated my bullets for about an hour and a half at 450 degrees and dumped them quick in a bucket of cool water. I went an hour and a half because I didn't know if I could trust my yard sale toaster oven.

[35 shooter]

Yodogsandman i've shot them as quickly as 48 hours later and haven't noticed any difference in groups. In fact i always try to lube and size within 48 hrs. as they get hard quickly.
You might consider picking up a oven thermometer to make sure what temp. your running as the ovens are rarely calibrated right. At least that's what i did. I found one at a local hardware store. If i have the time i lube and size as soon as they are dry from dunking in water, as they go through the sizer easily then.
My system is to put the bullets on a tray in the oven and then i have an old cake pan i fill with cold water just before removing the boolits from the oven. I just submerge the the whole tray of bullets in the pan of water as quick as i can without spilling any of them. I let them stay in water for at least 5 min. to make sure they cool evenly all the way through, 10 min. may be better. Put em on a dry towel and roll em a bit and usually let em dry overnight, but have sized a few hours later.

BTW good to hear your getting geared up again with your whelen. Looking forward to see how it goes for you. You've definitely got an awesome boolit there to work with.

[Yodogsandman]

Thanks for the info...looks like I can go shoot these up anytime. My wifey has all sorts of those thermo-thingys, she won't mind (know)109037 if I use one.

[Shuz]

While I'm not a metallurgist, nor do I play one on TV, I have read articles written by metallurgists that claim that sizing a cast boolit after heat treating "work softens" the sides of the boolit that come into contact with the sizing die. This they claim defeats the purpose of heat treating to get a hardness needed to drive the boolits at a higher velocity. It is an extra step, granted, but what they recommend is to size the boolits as cast and then heat treat them and then to lube them, run them back thru a sizing die of preferably a thousandth larger die so as not to work soften the sides. I have never tested this theory because most of my cast boolit shooting is with velocities under 1800 fps, and I have obtained accuracy good enough to compete in CBA matches without heat treating my boolits. Maybe I should test this theory because I do shoot my .35 Whelens to 2150 fps and .30-30's with LeveRevolution to 2250fps. with heat treated boolits.

[Yodogsandman]

It turns out that all her "thermo-thingys" are meat probes and only go up to 200 degrees. I'll have to go looking for a proper thermometer some day. Being my first time, I kind of went by the seat o my pants. I sized the bullets to .359" dry the next day after molding. Then laid them in a single layer on the toaster oven pan that I had covered first with aluminum foil. Put them in the oven and cranked up the heat setting to 450 degrees. I expected the light on the front to go on and off when the oven cycled. It didn't. I noticed the coils glowed during the heat cycle and went dark when at temp. I kept watch to check for slumping or outright puddling. After an hour and a half of this, I figured they must have had enough heat. I took them out and dropped them immediately into a 5 gallon bucket of cool water from the hose. I dumped the water off outside after about 10 minutes. I dried them with paper towels and left them on paper toweling overnight. I lubed and GC'd them using the same .359" die. I knew I should have used a .360 die to lube with but, I haven't got one yet. I noticed that all the bullets had lost that frosted look and some showed what looked like light scorching. I think they're much harder now just judging by the fingernail test. Not sure if I'm going to need that thermometer. From what I've read, after the initial hardening from the heat treating, the bullets will continue to "age harden" for a couple weeks and then mostly stabilize for quite a while. Most seem to accept 48 hours as enough time to wait to shoot the HT'd bullets.

BTW- I had read an old post of yours, 35 shooter and specifically checked for flat spots on the sides of the bullets and I didn't have any.

[35 shooter]

Shuz i'm sure no expert on it for sure and i have read those same things before pertaining to heat treating and water dropping and sizing.
I used to do it the way you described and still would if i were water dropping. I've heard the hardening doesn't go as deep or evenly through the boolit when water dropping?
Anyway, i think it was on the lasc site that i read where some were sizing to final dia. and lubing at the same time even as long as 48 hrs. after heat treating. I gave it a try and it seemed to work and finally had some tested and they came out about 27 bhn. but i don't remember how old the boolits were.
The only thing i know for sure is i can shoot them 48 hrs. later and get great accuracy the same as if i had waited 1 or 2 weeks or more. But i'm not saying it's the best way to do it. I've also noticed that about 24 hr. after ht treating they seem to be about the same hardness whether they were sized or not (can't scratch em with a fingernail test). It does save time and seems to work for me so i kept doing it that way.
I also did a thread on here one time on heat treating boolits and sizing and gas checks related i think some folks here were doing the same thing if i remember right.

[35 shooter]

Yodogsandman sounds like you've got the process nailed down. I did get a few flat spots on mine before i got the oven thermometer lol. I was verging on too hot with the temp. going by the oven readings. Mine is a cheap dollar store type and is 50* or more than what it says.
Hope they shoot good for you. Mine won't shoot at all over about 1800 fps. without heat treating, or at least, not so far.

[Yodogsandman]

I might have run into that 1800 ft/sec wall, also. After my first shoot, I had more questions than answers....still do. With the scope going bad, I questioned all my results. Above 42gr IMR4064 groups opened up to +1" but <2". At and above 46gr, groups went to >3". I used the 50gr load to sight in and it seemed to shoot about a 4" group. Not enough shells to really tell. Seeing that you've been having good luck with the HT'd boolits, I decided I needed to HT also.

Still, no leading even at 50gr with AC COWW + 2%SN. I don't expect that I'll have any with the HT boolits.

I didn't slug my bore. I had ruined a good cleaning rod doing that on another gun years and years ago, and I'm still not set up to do it right. So, decided to try a .359 sizer instead of the .358". I just got the .359" sizer for this and I should have started there anyways.

[35 shooter]

Yodogsandman i believe you'll see a reduction in groups with heat treated. i've seen a couple of others here report the same thing in their whelens. Just got back from shooting and getting groups measured. Wasn't a bad day at the range and i'm thinking a little tweaking now will get me where i want to be.

[35 shooter]

Nice day at the range today with hardly any wind at all. Think a bit of tweaking on seating depth may get me there with 4350.

results @ 100 yds. with 280 gc. boolit
(1) 54 gr. imr4350 5 shots...2.244"
(2) 54 1/2 gr. imr4350 5 shots...3.5"

results with 280 gr. pb boolit
(1)48 gr. imr4350 5 shots @ 100 yds. no leading but shot about 9 to 10" left of poi. First time that's ever happened. 2 were about 1 1/2" apart on paper but the other 3 went left of paper. Have to shoot this one again.
(2) 12 gr. unique 5 shots @ 100 yds....1.877"
(3) 12 gr. unique @ 50 yds....1.296"

At 50 yds. i fired one shot with the unique load then moved the power ring on the scope till it lined up with the boolit hole. The closest i could get was the tip of the bottom post touching the hole on 3 power. I fired the rest of the group using the tip of the post.

Looks like 48 gr. and 54 gr. are best with 4350 and the gas check boolit. The 280 gr. is not shooting as accurate as my 2oo gr. boolits yet but not all that bad either.
I know where everything is hitting on target now so i'll take the chrony next trip and play with seating depth too.
Can't figure out why the pb shot so far left with the 48 gr. 4350 load? The unique load is centered just like all the rest.

[Yodogsandman]

Sounds like you did had a good day! That PB with the 48gr 4350 might be jumping the rifling from too much speed. You wouldn't think it could where it starts off with a slower push with the 4350. Do you HT the PB's?

I shot today, also. A good day all around! Better groups at more speed. Heat treating works! I have a head scratcher, too. I shot for 10 shot groups. I had to shoot just 5 at a time due to barrel heating. At 48gr IMR4064, I got two separate groups on the paper, side by side, without changing the scope settings. I didn't measure but both 5 shot groups look about 2". The first shot of each group, with a ambient temp barrel, doubled the size of that group. Might've killed that other scope!

I tried digging some out of the berm. I've got to bring a shovel, I guess. Loose dirt 8" in diameter about a foot deep, no bullets. No fractured pieces. Some shiny bits but not enough to account for even one bullet. They must be real deep! Hope it's not a 300gr frangible boolit.

[Shuz]

(quote)I shot today, also. A good day all around! Better groups at more speed. Heat treating works! I have a head scratcher, too. I shot for 10 shot groups. I had to shoot just 5 at a time due to barrel heating. At 48gr IMR4064, I got two separate groups on the paper, side by side, without changing the scope settings. I didn't measure but both 5 shot groups look about 2". The first shot of each group, with a ambient temp barrel, doubled the size of that group. Might've killed that other scope!(quote)

Yodogsandman--If you are getting 2" groups of 5 shots at 100 yds with the 358009 and 48g of 4064, I'd say you have reached the pinnacle of success! You might change primers and see if that give you any better accuracy, but I doubt it!

[Yodogsandman]

35 shooter, Maybe by staying in the barrel longer, because of the slower push start with 4350, the PB is being gas etched on the base. Velocity must be above 1800 FPS with 48gr.

Shuz, I just have similar weight boolit, a NEI 358 282 GC that drops at 301gr using COWW + 2%SN. I've always been amazed by your results with the 358009. It was my primary reason for wanting a 358009. This mold of mine was available as I looked for a 358009 so, I got it. 35 shooters detailed new testing with the 358009 has given me a lot of great ideas and I've certainly benefited from it.

My gun shoots better than me. I can hold it to 5/8" groups with j-word bullets in this gun. I expect about the same results with cast boolits, if I do my part. I still have a lot of tinkering to do, you've set the bar pretty high. I suspect the scope. I took it (the scope) off my deer rifle because I didn't trust it after a bad fall. It's all banged up. Just using it as a temporary replacement for my other scope that's being "repaired or replaced".

[TXGunNut]

My HT sequence is size, oven HT/quench, resize/seat GC/lube based on the Fryxell book.
Have you tried AC boolits for the PB loads?

[35 shooter]

Yodogsandman glad the ht is working for you. Like Shuz said 2" with cast @ 100 yds. is not bad at all, but i understand the wanting to get it better, i'm the same way. I almost did a back flip for joy off the bench when that 54 gr. load shot around that again on my last session though. Still a few things to try from here though like seating a bit deeper, crimp, different primer,etc.
LOL after looking at 3 to 5" groups for awhile there, that 2" looked great for a change.
Could try upping the charge a bit i suppose but i'm VERY close on the boolit base now. I can go a little farther without compression, but the way i'm seated with the boolit, i don't have far to go. Accurate powders recommends 55 gr. as max with aa4350 and the 358009 and that's not compressed and imr 4350 is a bit faster on the burn chart, so i'm thinking leave well enough alone and try a little tweaking.

BTW, talking about tight groups with cast...i've shot several bughole groups with my 200 gr. boolits, but they never held up. I felt very blessed to wind up with loads in the 1 to 1 1/2" range. LOL i think Sierra and Hornady make a better bullet than me...darn it!
Still trying though!

[35 shooter]

My HT sequence is size, oven HT/quench, resize/seat GC/lube based on the Fryxell book.
Have you tried AC boolits for the PB loads?

Actually i did try with some of the light loads to see and i don't think i even posted on it. It shot a little bigger group that way, but no leading. Really need to try it some more cause it could have been just me.
What surprised me was that 48 gr. load and no leading with the pb ht. I think that load MAY have tried to shoot but most of the group was off the paper on the left and i just couldn't tell for sure.
LOL when i get this gc boolit as good as i can, i think i'm gonna go pb crazy. I love that thing.
If i could find a load from 1600 to 2000 fps., i think i would do most of my hunting and shooting with it.
LOL I could sit at the range all day with 12 gr. of unique like it is.

[Yodogsandman]

Two inch groups aren't bad at all, if that's the best the load combination/rifle/equipment/shooter are capable of. That's definitely minute of moose! I'm just starting load development. This is fun! I like shooting this gun! I'll probably work on this until I get a permit, then I'll take it hunting.

Got to love that Unique! Very economical and shoots good, too! I also shot my 6.5 Swede on Sunday, too. First time with a new mold, the 6.5mm cruise missile. Tried 9.0gr Unique. Ten shot, 1 1/2" group at 50 yards, 2 1/2" at 100 yards! This mold's bullets are known for yawing, mine is no different. Half caliber tipping shown in the bullet holes (oblong holes). I always try Unique.

I think IMR4350 works better, at least with j-words, compressed just a little.

[35 shooter]

Yodogsandman the aa 4350 powder does show compression with the 204 gr. and 250 gr. cast boolits but not the 358009. It may be that they ran out of accuracy there or weren't getting much gain in velocity anymore and not anything pressure related. I am getting a bit of primer flattening at 54 1/2 gr. of imr4350 but case base is still measuring the same and no marks on case head. Thing is imr4350 will lay down a bit under the boolit and still not be compressed because of airspace between the big powder granules and without specific data it's kind of hard to tell when it's actually compressed.
I haven't been able to get any hard data on imr 4350 with the 280 gr. boolit but i do have data from an old hornady manual with 250 gr. jacketed. According to that with a 250 jacketed i could go 4 more grains from where i am. But of course i'm using a 280 plus gr. boolit which is seating deeper too i'm sure.

Thus my delima at this point? Play with seating depth a bit at 54 gr? Or press on a bit further with the charge? Much more powder won't leave much room for playing with seating depth? Guess i could push a bit more and if it doesn't get better, go back to 54 gr. and play with seating depth then?
Suggestions?...Tx. Yodog?....Anybody?

[TXGunNut]

Guess i could push a bit more and if it doesn't get better, go back to 54 gr. and play with seating depth then?
Suggestions?...Tx. Yodog?....Anybody?-35 shooter

All I can say is that in my rifle using IMR4350 under the 250 gr 360318 I began to lose stability @ 51.7 grs and by the time I reached 54.0 grs I had lost any semblence to a group. I was hoping for another "sweet spot" somewhere around 54 grs but things fell apart before I got there. Have you noticed any signs of unstable boolits? I noticed a few I'd overlooked above 51.5 grs and it was quite obvious @ 54 grs. I didn't do a progressive ladder but I have several similar loads shot at different times and when I gathered them up it was pretty obvious. We both have 1:14 twist but you have a longer tube and there are other factors as well. As we know rifles are individuals but I'm pretty sure 54 grs under the 358009 would not work at all in Ol' Ugly above about 1600 or so. Another powder might work better for both of us but I'm not sure.

Gee, I bet that didn't help a bit. I'm sorry.

[35 shooter]

TxGuNut, no, i never noticed any signs of yaw or anything with the 009, even with the unique loads. I was very surprised by that by the way. Then again, i haven't shot past 100 yds. with it so far.
Don't be sorry one bit...your input is ALWAYS appreciated. I just hate your having a bit of trouble with your new boolit. Another powder may well fix that.
I was hoping for a "bit" more accuracy on the upper end with 4350 and the 009, but i'm not quite through with it yet as it has showed promise. There's a bit of wiggle room on the charge yet and a lot inward seating depth to play with. In fact, the more i think about it, the more i think that's it for the 009.... the seating depth. We'll see.

[Yodogsandman]

I'd try the seating depth first. It might fine tune your load. I'm .050" off from where my boolit starts to engrave on the lands. I plan to move forward in .010" increments when I find the amount of powder mine likes. I have about .2" left for length in my magazine. At least with j-words, my rifle likes full bore loads. That's held true for 200gr,225gr and 250gr bullets. I don't mean to say you should go over pressure for your load combination. Stay safe!

My plan is to work up in 1.0 gr increments until I see signs of getting close to max pressure. Go back to the best load. Try a 1/2 gr on either side. Go to best load. Play with seating depth. Go to best load. Try some wizardry. Neck tension, crimp/no-crimp/light crimp/med. crimp/etc. Go to best load. If not happy, try different primers. As you know, I started with fit and the boolit hardness for the expected velocities.

I don't know if anyone else does this but, I rotate my bullets as I seat them. At least twice, sometimes three times. I feel that it helps straighten out bullets that might be seating crooked. I've never checked run-out except by crudely rolling them on the bench top. I rarely roll them to check. Seems to help me.

[35 shooter]

I see your no stranger to fine tuning a load Yodogsandman. That is definitely the right approach....looking forward to your results.
Yes, i'll probably play with seating at this point to get that out of the way. I can only go in about about .040" and still have half the check still in the neck. Their homeade checks and go on tight, but of course don't crimp on. I can always go back to commercial checks and seat deeper, but lol my homeade checks out shoot them, but i don't want them below the neck.

[Yodogsandman]

I need to learn to make my own checks. Glad I got a case of .35's and .30's about 20 years ago, can't believe the prices now. Recently, I had no 6.5mm checks but, got a couple of deals cheap. That's great that you can tailor your checks to your boolit like that.

My checks are fully exposed to the gases. The bottom of the check is almost even with the bottom of the shoulder. I've read that it doesn't matter too much. From my perspective, it doesn't seem to matter.

[35 shooter]

I need to learn to make my own checks. Glad I got a case of .35's and .30's about 20 years ago, can't believe the prices now. Recently, I had no 6.5mm checks but, got a couple of deals cheap. That's great that you can tailor your checks to your boolit like that.

My checks are fully exposed to the gases. The bottom of the check is almost even with the bottom of the shoulder. I've read that it doesn't matter too much. From my perspective, it doesn't seem to matter.

Yea, i found out the check is as important as any other component in the load. Different materials and thickness definitely shoot a bit different. When you find the right one, it can tighten groups. LOL it can also open a group up.
The only thing i worry about is getting below the neck and have one fall off in the powder charge. They fit tight, but don't crimp on like hornady's.
My check tool is the free chex you use with a hammer. It's slow, but you can make em anywhere.:smile:

Nice looking mould and boolits you have there.

[Yodogsandman]

Thanks 35 shooter, I wanted to show the depth into the case with a photo I had. I'm using expanded 30-06 cases so the case length is short, about 2.460"-2.466". I'll trim next time, just to even out the length. Just for consistancy.

I think I'd try to snug up into those lands a little with your boolit nose. If your crimping to get a better powder burn, you won't need to, if the boolit nose is in the lands. It impedes the boolit enough for better powder ignition, I think. I could be completely wrong if that's a bore riding boolit. Then the first band would need to be touching the throat. Also, by not using a crimp, it removes a variable from your load equation.

[35 shooter]

Thanks 35 shooter, I wanted to show the depth into the case with a photo I had. I'm using expanded 30-06 cases so the case length is short, about 2.460"-2.466". I'll trim next time, just to even out the length. Just for consistancy.

I think I'd try to snug up into those lands a little with your boolit nose. If your crimping to get a better powder burn, you won't need to, if the boolit nose is in the lands. It impedes the boolit enough for better powder ignition, I think. I could be completely wrong if that's a bore riding boolit. Then the first band would need to be touching the throat. Also, by not using a crimp, it removes a variable from your load equation.

I'm pretty jammed with this boolit....151" into lands and front band has good throat contact all the way around. My overall length is 3.182" and any further the extractor won't pull it out. I may try a bit further into the case, maybe the front band needs a bit of relief?
I am fighting about a 4 1/2 # trigger pull....need to do something with that. I WILL take the chrono next trip. I need to know where i'm at on speed as that will tell me a few things.
BTW the triggers no problem, just a hassle. No crimp at this point as case mouth is sitting on a band, but i have to say, as bad as i hate to crimp for rifles, this rifle has consistently shot best with a crimp with the 200 gr. boolits.

[Yodogsandman]

WoW! Sounds like you have the fit perfect! Your groups are right there, whatever the cause it's probably a small thing. That crimp worked great on your 200gr boolit, It's something to try.

I understood that the Encore has an adjustable trigger?

I know the frustration of a heavy trigger, it causes me all sorts of grief. I also shot my 30-30 last Sunday, it's a H&R Handi type. The trigger pull is heavier than the rifle! I kept pulling it off the bags when I pulled the trigger! I think I've concluded that's the only problem with my load there. If I really concentrate and focus, I can pull off a great group. I was trying the load with a crimp for giggles. Opened the groups up X2. I hate to lighten the trigger pull any because it's a youth model. That was using the Lyman 311291 boolit (8.0gr Unique). If I make that cartridge too long, the action doesn't want to close right.

[35 shooter]

Hope everyone has a good 4th of July. Stay safe for the holiday.....35shooter!

[TXGunNut]

You too, my friend. Pork butt's on the smoker, ribs going on in a couple of hours.

[Yodogsandman]

I finally got to shoot today, it's been windy and gusty from the tropical depression Arthur. It was still 10-20 mph with gusts. I only shot 10 rounds of 35 Whelen. I felt that I wasn't doing my part. The single shot 30-30 is a beast to shoot. Can you imagine a youth model with a 13 3/4" length of pull? The stocks all wrong, the triggers too heavy and have to use extra stuff on the bags to raise the barrel to the target. When I got behind the Whelen, I was still frustrated from the 30-30 and had to hurry and leave quick to get to work. So, the group opened to about 3"-3 1/2". Half that could have been my fault.

[35 shooter]

Yea, shooting when your in a semi rush or on short time is definitely not the best conditions to shoot under, but sometimes you just want to squeeze some shootin in anyway. Did that a couple of sessions ago myself but i still had a good time shooting.
Picked up a lb. of h4350 to try this coming weekend although the imr is doing quite well. Also picked up some 4759 to up my stock on that and a lb. of imr4227 to try with the plain base 358009. I'll be using a filler this time with the 4759 and also the 4227 and get serious with the pb. Now if they only had 2400 in stock, but no such luck this time. No unique either.

[Yodogsandman]

I'll have to go looking for powder soon....Haven't bought much since Clinton was in office and the prices went up due to the shortage. This too shall pass. I have what I need but, not as much as I want in the cabinet. There's powder around, you just have to drive to go get it. An hour and a half to be told that it's a one pound limit! It's a shock when you go from $13. a pound to $30. I used to shoot a lot of surplus powder but, my supplier passed away 20 years ago. When the mail order places catch up, I'll probably do that again. 8 pound jugs are just so cool!

That's great that you found some of what you needed! Got to keep the experiments going!

BTW; I haven't seen any 2400 either. I think the powder manufacturers have to catch up on their most popular powders first and then we'll start seeing more and more of the other stuff.

[35 shooter]

I've noticed a definite upswing on availability of powder in my area for the last 3 months. Not everything you want but enough of really good powders to keep you going, especially rifle powders. One bit of a good sign i've noticed too,is that it stays on the shelves a bit longer now and replacement time is much quicker when they run out.
I've got everything i need to finish load development with the 358009 for sure.

[Yodogsandman]

Lets hope the wind subsides enough to shoot this weekend. I missed a short break in the wind this afternoon when I was working.

[TXGunNut]

Hope ya'll get some shooting done, will be cheering you on from the sidelines. Temps will be be near or above 100 by the time I get my yardwork done so I won't even get Ol' Ugly out of the safe.
Will be trying on a few shotguns, tho.

[35 shooter]

We'll see how it goes, i think rain is in the forecast, but it changes day to day lately. I do have quite a few loads ready to try with both the gc and pb boolit. Most will be 3 shot groups just looking for accuracy indications. Gonna try and chrono a couple of imr 4350 loads just to see where i'm at on speed.
I've got the pb loaded with 4759 and a filler up to about 1750 fps and the gc loaded over some h4350.

BTW...the shotguns sound like fun!

[Yodogsandman]

I shot and had dismal results yesterday. I didn't bother to measure the groups but, at 50.0gr IMR4064 about a 6" and at 51.0gr, an 8" group. I think I found the point where I'm stripping the lands with too much velocity. Skidded right off the runway! Too bad, the loading density was close to 100%. I'm guessing about 2200 FPS. Can't figure out how to harden the alloy more without brittleness.

Powder coating might be the next step to try. I'm chompin to try it since the electrostatic PC system was delivered last week. I've done some playing with it and I think I can do it now, if I can decide on a color!

[35 shooter]

Good day at the range today except for the fact it's getting too hot for 5 shot groups. LOL i went back to the car several times today to put the rifle next to the air condition vents just to try to cool it down a bit. I noticed that on 5 shot groups no matter if i waited 2 min. between shots, the last 2 shots were at least 1/2 to 1" high of the group with my encore. It was especially true with h4350 and less so with imr4350. I guess h4350 heated the bbl. quicker.

Chrono results with imr 4350...280 gr. gc boolit:
48 gr. imr 4350 5 shots in 1.368"
(1) 1962 fps.
(2) 1949 fps.
(3) 1941 fps.
(4) 1961 fps.
(5) 1975 fps.



54 gr. imr 4350..280 gr. boolit:
5 shots in 2.028"
(1) 2205 fps.
(2) 2203 fps.
(3) 2193 fps.
(4) 2224 fps.
(5) 2225 fps.

H4350 didn't go as well as i had hoped and i only shot 3 shot groups just looking for accuracy potential.
(1) 50 gr. 1.927"
(2) 52 gr. 1.468"
(3) 53 gr. 4.181"
(4) 54 gr. 2.552"

The 52 gr. load has potential and actually so does the 54 gr. load as i'm pretty sure i pulled the last shot 2" left straight across from the first two. I called it when i shot it. The first two shots in both of those loads were only about a half inch apart side by side.

Today Ben's Red put the very first shot dead center of the group after running a wet ATF patch then one dry patch through the bore before shooting. Letting the bbl. cool a bit between groups it continued to put the first shots centered in each group.
Each time i quit shooting for the day i run a wet atf patch in the chamber and bore just to get the fouling out and leave the bbl. wet. When i go back to the range to shoot i run a wet patch of atf followed by one dry patch through chamber and bore and the first shots are in the group in MY rifle. Usually dead center. It's working for me!

[35 shooter]

I shot and had dismal results yesterday. I didn't bother to measure the groups but, at 50.0gr IMR4064 about a 6" and at 51.0gr, an 8" group. I think I found the point where I'm stripping the lands with too much velocity. Skidded right off the runway! Too bad, the loading density was close to 100%. I'm guessing about 2200 FPS. Can't figure out how to harden the alloy more without brittleness.

Powder coating might be the next step to try. I'm chompin to try it since the electrostatic PC system was delivered last week. I've done some playing with it and I think I can do it now, if I can decide on a color!

It does look like you went past the point of no return somewhere after the 48 gr. load, which by the way sounded like it might be a good load? Maybe a little tweaking around the 48 gr. point? I'm gonna work with seating depth a bit now that i kind of found out what the parameters seem to be with 4350.

[Yodogsandman]

2200 FPS is rockin it! In all reality, hunting wise, 1950 FPS is probably all you'll ever need for anything unless you go to Africa. Good to see the numbers for those loads. Does your chony give ES and SD? It seems like the better those numbers are, the more likely they are to keep repeating good groups. I believe I read somewhere that the 35 Whelen is the most balanced centerfire cartridge. The most absolute power for the least amount of grains of powder.


I have another head scratcher... my measurements were off on the boolit engraving the lands. The boolit doesn't seem to even engrave any more, like they shrunk. I've been running my O.A.L. to 3.125" which seats the GC at about the bottom of the shoulder, some lead exposed to gases. I just tried to bottom them out by barely seating them and couldn't do it. I switched to the .361" unsized boolits and got marking from the leade. The front driving band touches the leade at about 3.250" but I can easily push it in at my magazine maximum (3.420") and beyond. Still thinking.....

[35 shooter]

Yodogsandman i have an f1 chrony and it just gives speed as far as i know. I just figure every thing else out by averages. By the way the rifle recoils with the 54 gr. imr 4350 load i would have bet on 2300 fps., but that's how your shoulder can fool you. It is a very solid 2200 fps though and i'm pretty happy with it.
I think for most hunting i'll go with the 48 gr. load and an average of 1958 fps...that really is a sweet shooting load.
However the 2200 fps. load strikes about 3 1/2" high @ 100 yds. when sighted in for my 200 gr. loads which gives that load very close to a 200 yard zero if i remember right. Pretty neat when you can pull either load from your vest pocket and make the shot without touching the scope.

As far as seating depth, i usually start out touching the lands if i can and usually find the best accuracy there. Once i find the best load though i usually try backing off the lands 5 thou. at a time and usually find another sweet spot at a shorter seating depth, then use which ever depth shoots best.
I think TxGuNut is right about 5 shot groups in this heat...bbl. will just not cool back down. I noticed with three shot groups it stayed fairly cool with about 10 min. between groups. I don't mind shooting 3 shot groups with a hunting rifle as long as i can super impose the targets over each other and all shots are within the pre determined group.

[Yodogsandman]

I have no where near your heat, 84 degrees yesterday, and it took twenty minutes for the barrel to cool between groups.

[TXGunNut]

I have no where near your heat, 84 degrees yesterday, and it took twenty minutes for the barrel to cool between groups.

Not a chance around here today, temps hit 95 well before noon so rifle shooting was over quite early. I know one rifle shooter who has an air tank and an adapter to cool off his barrel. I'm not dragging an air tank around to shoot on these 95+ degree days. If ambient temps won't allow a barrel to cool I won't shoot. Rifle range was a bit busy today anyway, good thing I've retired my rifles for a month or two.

[Yodogsandman]

I rarely have anyone else sharing the range now, even on a Sunday afternoon. A few years back, I never wanted to shoot on the weekends because of all the shooters. That's with about 1500 active members! Everyone's out of ammo or hoarding what they have now. The few I meet there are mostly all handloaders. Very few of them, too. There will be a bunch though, sighting in just before the deer season. I won't use the range then.

I think my boolits shrunk! Wondering if I screwed up the alloy mix in the last batch, could I have got a couple of pure lead ingots in there? I mark my COWW ingots with a chisel but, the buckets are next to each other. I had light engraving on the bore riding section, now I don't.

[35 shooter]

Yodogsandman did you size to .360 or .359? I have heard of boolits shrinking in dia. a bit over time but have never noticed it with mine, but then again, i've never really checked like a month later or anything. Never noticed any change after ht either, but that may be a possibility? Sure does seem weird that they were engaging but now their not. Maybe you did get a lead ingot in with the mix? Maybe run up some more from straight ww and check them just to make sure? Hope you get that figured out.

[Yodogsandman]

I sized those to .359", I have a .360" sizer coming on backorder, 5-7 weeks. I did get 10% off and free shipping with it at Optics Planet.

I started a thread over on the "lead and alloys" sub-group and the guys over there say the boolit would be smaller in diameter if I got some pure lead in there somehow. They also concure that over time they do shrink. At first they increase in size and then decrease over time. I don't know, it's only been two months since I cast them. I'm leaning more towards me screwing it up. I did find that I can take full advantage of my magazine and seat out to 3.375", the box is 3.420" long. I might have been hamstringing myself! I tried some at that length and they still feed slick. Although the first one from the magazine is a little gritty. For right now, I'm going to play with the O.A.L. and try some powder coated. I'm wondering if I can get more velocity with the powder coating and still retain accuracy. Plus, I'm all set up now for electrostatic powder coating (ES PC) and I want to play with that some. ES PC would also increase the nose by about .002". Hmmm, what color should a 35 Whelen boolit be? It won't be that ugly cream color that Nosler makes thier .35 cal, 225gr Balistic Tips!

Still looking for my tripod for the chrony. I have the master beta one. Bet the batteries are dead after 5-6 years, too. I'll have to re-read the instuctions, I think!

[35 shooter]

Yodogsandman i just found my chrony after hiding it from myself for about 7 years lol. The battery was still working and was what i used last weekend. I bought a new one to take with me just in case, but didn't need it.

As for what color a whelen boolit should be.....silver to grey with Ben's Red in the lube grooves!:kidding:

[TXGunNut]

One of my favorite golden age activities; hiding stuff from myself. Glad you enjoy it as well. I forgot my spare battery last trip, battery was too low. Found the spare as soon as I bought another pair.

[Yodogsandman]

35 shooter, That's it! Red powder came with the ES PC gun and it's on the gun, ready to go. I might not ever have to lube again!

It's gonna look like a big tube of lipstick!

TXGunNut, Glad you guys are finding your stuff, I'm still missing that tripod! I'm thinking that I'll have to buy another one to be able to find this one. That's when I'll find it, too!

[TXGunNut]

-snip-


TXGunNut, Glad you guys are finding your stuff, I'm still missing that tripod! I'm thinking that I'll have to buy another one to be able to find this one. That's when I'll find it, too!

Found two tripods at garage sales, good thing because I backed over one with my pickup once.

[35 shooter]

35 shooter, That's it! Red powder came with the ES PC gun and it's on the gun, ready to go. I might not ever have to lube again!

It's gonna look like a big tube of lipstick!


TXGunNut, Glad you guys are finding your stuff, I'm still missing that tripod! I'm thinking that I'll have to buy another one to be able to find this one. That's when I'll find it, too!

Lipstick? Oh man!:groner:

[Yodogsandman]

Here they are, HT'd and PC'd just today! Prior to PCing, I sized to .359. The .360 sizer arrives today, I'll size them with it tonight. Do you think I can shoot them this weekend or wait a few days for the HT a little?

[TXGunNut]

Those are some pretty boolits. I'm too much of a traditionalist to jump right into PC'ing but maybe someday....

[Beagle333]

Nice boolits! That's what I'm gonna do to my .35 boolits too.
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/PC-101022_zps88b26228.jpg

[35 shooter]

Wow, i didn't realize you could tumble lube with Ben's Red!:kidding:

Gonna give h4350 another try this weekend if the rain holds off. Looked like both 52 and 54 gr. tried to shoot. I know i blew one shot on the 54 gr. load the other day. I've got 3 loaded with 54 1/2 gr. just to check also.

[Yodogsandman]

35 shooter, It's Ben's Red in powder form! Dry and non sticky version!

I hope that rain does hold off for you, let's hope it's cooler, too. It's tough to shoot nice groups when the sweat is rolling down and burning your eyes!

I think I read that gun writer Rick Jamison's method for cooling his barrel was to pour ice water from an Igloo jug into the barrel from the breech end with a hose and rubber fitting and then dry it with a couple of patches. He had a shut-off valve on the hose and the fitting prevented water from entering the action. Of course that was at his home range, he didn't have to lug it anywhere.

TXgunNut, Me, too! I'm just doing what it takes. HTing is also new to me too. It's opened up a whole new range of velocity possibilities to me. Prior to HTing, 1900 FPS was where I hit the wall, accuracy wise. PCing is the only method I know of that could extend those velocities with accuracy past what's possible with HTing. That and you get purdy boolits!

Beagle333, As you must know, there's not much information on how to make PCing work good for rifles. Very few have accomplished both high velocity and accuracy with it in rifles. This could be revolutionary! I think it will work but, there's a lot to learn with very little supporting data. There's going to be a lot of trial and error. To find any info, you have to wade through an awful lot of reading. Most posts are from new shooters, new to casting, looking for the "EASY" button and claiming amazing results! It's frustrating to read that much and get so little good info. Lots of purdy boolit photos, though!

btw, Your boolits look like they'd put a hurt on something just sitting there!

[35 shooter]

Well it does look like sunshine by 7 am in the morning, got my fingers crossed. For fun i'm gonna take a few unique loads for the pb boolit. Also gonna play with my bond arms derringer 45/410 with some unique loads behind a .454 minnie ball hollow base. Shot a 4" group at 25 yds. with it last weekend but couldn't see those stainless steel sights well. I could see the sights better against the red dirt and gravel 100 yd. berm, so i shot the rest of them there after i figured out how much front sight to hold above the rear. I think that hollow base is sealing off the 410 part of the bore well as i didn't get much leading at all. Acts like it's self cleaning so far.
Got the sights painted black for this trip. Won't be any excuses this time lol. Except of course for the 1000 pound trigger pull. Gotta get a spring kit for that thing.
Of course i have the h4350 loads for the whelen too. Should be an interesting trip.

[Yodogsandman]

WoW! I thought those little pistols were for close in work only! With that recoil, I wouldn't want to shoot it too many times but, I have big hands and they don't fit me well. Don't heat it up and stick it back in your pocket!

[35 shooter]

WoW! I thought those little pistols were for close in work only! With that recoil, I wouldn't want to shoot it too many times but, I have big hands and they don't fit me well. Don't heat it up and stick it back in your pocket!

The only other load i ever got to shoot in that thing was a win. 250 gr. lead rn factory round, but after about 9 or 10 shots you had to clean the lead out. I've shot 2 1/2 and 3" groups with that load from a clean bbl. @ 25 yds. with 3 shots. I would have one go through the target almost sideways sometimes though and 12" off somewhere. This minnie ball boolit actually cut clean holes the other day. Every other boolit i've tried in it has key holed badly and shot wild. If the colt brass loads don't work , i'm gonna try some 444 brass in it to get the boolit closer to the rifling. Of course i'd have to fire form it first. I was impressed at how well it did @ 100 yds. the other day but not as much as the guy that was spotting for me. I was only hitting close but it was still a lot of fun. This may turn out to be THE boolit for a 45/410...we'll see.

[TXGunNut]

Weather looking nice in my neck of the woods this morning, cases are in the tumbler and Ol' Ugly's vacation is about to get interrupted! Hope you get to head to the range as well.

[35 shooter]

Weather looking nice in my neck of the woods this morning, cases are in the tumbler and Ol' Ugly's vacation is about to get interrupted! Hope you get to head to the range as well.

Glad to hear that! Did you get the new mould yet?
I did get to the range early this morning. It was actually almost cool here today with all the cloud cover.

[35 shooter]

Tried h4350 again today with two of the loads that shot the best 3 shot groups last weekend.
(1) 52 gr. h4350...5 shots @3.205" @ 100 yds.

(2) 54 gr. h4350...5 shots @4.601" @ 100 yds.
(3) 54 1/2 gr. h4350...5 shots@4.683" @ 100 yds.

5 shot groups told the tale for h4350 for MY rifle. It definitely prefers imr 4350.
I also shot the pb version with unique again.
(1) 12 gr. unique 5 shots @2.113" @ 100 yds.
(2) 11.8 gr. unique 5 shots @2.844" @ 100 yds.
(3) 12 gr. unique 4 shots @ .601" @ 50 yds....only had 4 of these left.
Good small game load.

Just for fun, i shot my bond arms 45/410 with my new .454 minie ball and some unique loads. I think i finally found THE BOOLIT for the derringer.
(1) 5 gr. unique 3 shots in 3.395" @ 21 yds.
(2) 5 1/2 gr. unique 3 shots in 5.558" @ 21 yds.
(3) 6 gr. unique 3 shots in 2.201" @ 21 yds.
I shot about 40 rounds just rolling and trying to roll cans at 50 yds. and shooting at a quart milk jug at 100 yds just having fun. I don't think anything is left in the bbl. that won't patch out.

There was signs of the boolit flying very slightly tip up at 21 yards, only slightly though and could have been due to loose backing my targets were taped to.
This is absolutely the best boolit i've shot from a 45/410.

[TXGunNut]

Glad to hear that! Did you get the new mould yet?
I did get to the range early this morning. It was actually almost cool here today with all the cloud cover.

Glad you got to the range, was just studying on your results a bit. Almost cool here this weekend too. Funny how your rifle prefers the IMR and mine just can't seem to settle down with it.

[35 shooter]

A brief summary of the 358009 gc, results is that it shoots dismal with h4350 in my rifle, but imr 4350 shoots pretty well.

The avg. of groups fired with 48 gr. imr 4350 is 1.343" @ 100 yds. with the flare removed from the cases and no crimp. Velocity is 1958 fps.

Avg. for 54 gr. imr 4350 is 2.025" @ 100yds. Velocity is 2222 fps.

[TXGunNut]

Hmmmm...A Tale of Two Rifles. Can only conclude that our experiences prove that rifles are indeed individuals.

[35 shooter]

"A tale of two rifles" lol, i like the the sound of that. I guess when you think about it it has been quite a party with your "ol ugly" and my "ol contrary". Both very similar with some loads and powders and further apart with others. Both seem to like 4350, but different brands...strange indeed. One thing for sure though, they both shoot "lights out" with the loads they like with the 200 gr. boolits. Still hoping i get the 358009 a bit tighter on the high end. If not, it'll do where it's at.

[TXGunNut]

It's helpful to have another shooter (and rifle) to confirm/contrast results. The H4350/IMR4350 question is indeed an odd one. On one sheet of paper the velocities/pressures/powder charges sound somewhat similar. On another sheet of paper-the target-another story is sometimes told.
It's been quite a ride indeed with Ol' Ugly. Over 30 years ago she helped me learn how how to shoot, load and hunt. Now that she's out of retirement she's proven that she has a few more things to teach me, if I'm willing to learn. I guess if both these old girls tell us to take our heavy boolits and.....melt them down into something useful we're still ahead of the game.

[Yodogsandman]

It's really ashame that more heavy boolit molds aren't available. There's only a couple still being made. We need more .35 Whelen shooters!

[TXGunNut]

It's really ashame that more heavy boolit molds aren't available. There's only a couple still being made. We need more .35 Whelen shooters!

Accurate has several, one looks like I need to try it. Lyman has a few, that 358009 is an awesome boolit. I like the 360-235 Thor but Ol' Ugly didn't. Maybe 200grs is the right weight for this cartridge and my rifle but the other boolits may work for your rifle and 35 shooter's rifle is showing signs the 358009 will settle down and work. I think the right boolit is out there.

[35 shooter]

I try my best to stay off the accurate moulds site. LOL it's more dangerous for me than the NOE site. I think a bit of tweaking a few things will get the 358009 down to my 1.5" or better @ 100 yds. criteria for cast boolits. It's already met that at 1958 fps, but it would be nice to have it on the upper end at 2200. I doubt that imr 3031 would be the way to go, but one of the old lyman manuals shows well over 2300 fps. with that powder and i just happen to have a couple pounds of it on hand.
I think you'll eventually find a heavier boolit that "ol ugly" likes, probably one of Tom's.
As far as that goes i'd hunt anything anywhere except maybe Africa's Big Five with my NOE 200 gr. with total confidence.
That 250A boolit Tom has does look like it should shoot if it would feed well in your rifle. LOL you've got me looking at that boolit hard now. I like the short nose profile on it.

Yodogsandman your right, There can't be enough whelen shooters for me. I love reading everyone's results with them.:-)

[Yodogsandman]

My own love affair with the cartridge started when I was 8 years old. I found that I liked reading and I read everything. My dad had one gun book, a 1958 Gun Digest. It featured the 35 Whelen wildcat and I read about it over and over. I was going to have one when I got big! I started building mine in 1985 and finished it in about 1989, just after Remington had introduced it in their classic model 700. Good timing, too, because now we had properly headstamped cases and more modern bullets to shoot it with.

[Yodogsandman]

Got the issues with the tripod worked out, got a free-bee. Had to wait for an adapter for it, though. I can set up my chrony now. So, after a weekend of family obligations, I can go shooting, if the weather improves. Off and on strong thunderstorms today with some tornadioh's around! I'm hoping to put up some numbers on the IMR4064 to see where we are.

Here's a photo of the new powder coated boolits. I think they'll be a little more palatable for you guys with just the bands covered.

[TXGunNut]

Pretty sexy-lookin' boolits there, hope you continue to dodge those twisters.

[35 shooter]

Looking forward to your results with the chrono. I actually tried some coated boolits once. My results are way back in the 10 dollar epoxy coating thread. I used the vht epoxy paint and it worked great for about 4 shots then the next boolit would go an inch lower and then the next an inch lower and the bbl. would be full of lead dust. The first three or 4 would try to get into 1/2" or so. I even tried ceramic paint with the same results, plus a good bore lapping.
Hope you find some accuracy with the pc coating.
LOL i think i'm sticking with grease for now. Gonna try backing off the seating depth a little with the 358009 and see what happens there and try to get my 200 gr. boolits chronoed this week sometime.

[Yodogsandman]

35 shooter, I'm also trying different O.A.L.s in tandem with the PC trials. Those coating methods you tried are PITA's. Ya got more moxie than me! The ES PC (electrostatic powder coating) method is easy. ASBBDT (Air Soft BB's dry tumbled) is even easier! Still, grease is old school like me. I looked into making Ben's Red so, maybe next time I need lube....

TXGunNut, Thanks! We don't get many tornadioh's around here but, I like the ones we get, that hit the woods any how. Opens them up! It makes a nice row of cover for the moose, deer and turkeys.

[35 shooter]

35 shooter, I'm also trying different O.A.L.s in tandem with the PC trials. Those coating methods you tried are PITA's. Ya got more moxie than me! The ES PC (electrostatic powder coating) method is easy. ASBBDT (Air Soft BB's dry tumbled) is even easier! Still, grease is old school like me. I looked into making Ben's Red so, maybe next time I need lube....

TXGunNut, Thanks! We don't get many tornadioh's around here but, I like the ones we get, that hit the woods any how. Opens them up! It makes a nice row of cover for the moose, deer and turkeys.

I'm mildly interested in the ASBBDT method, but my understanding is you cure the coating @ 400*. I know from experience that's not enough ht temp for my rifle unless the coating makes a difference. Can you cure the coating @ 400* let cool, then ht at say 465* and water drop without hurting the coating? That would bring the bhn up where it needs to be for my rifle. Just a thought as i am mildly interested in the shake and bake method as that is as simple as tumble lubing.

[Yodogsandman]

Once cured, I believe that reheating at a higher temperature would break down the coating. The degree of the powder coating breaking down might be slight, I'm not sure. It would depend on the time at the elevated temperature. It would be a good question for the manufacturer of the specific powder coating. There's different powder bases that would react differently. Some are epoxy, some polyester and some polyurethane based. Powders from different manufacturers could vary, also. So far, from what I've read, HT'ing must be done during the powder coating process.

I've been heating my boolits, ready to coat and prior to coating, at 450 degrees for about 45 minutes in the toaster oven. I remove them and spray them using the ES PC method. I then return the boolits to the oven to cure at 400 degrees. The curing process starts when the coating is in a melted state. I cure for 15 minutes once they have a melted/glossy appearance. This has normally been after 5-10 minutes for the toaster oven to heat back up, then the cure cycle for the 15 minutes. So, up to 25 minutes. I take them out and immediately drop them into a cool water quench. I have no way to test but, they don't scratch with my fingernail after quenching. The BHN after quenching would depend on your alloy. I'm not sure what my BHN is, I've only shot them the one time and I didn't wait, I shot them just two days later. I know, I know, I should have waited for 5 days. They might have been too soft for my velocity, again, I'm not sure. 4 out of 10 shots missed the target because they hit about 4 to 5 inches lower. I didn't use a backer behind the target. I think the group was about 4 inches at 100 yards.

The "shake and bake" method, ASBBDT, would be good for your plain bases boolits. Results I've seen reported, say they can be shot faster with no leading. Sometimes with better accuracy. Stay away from the flat colors and get a glossy finish for best results. I haven't done ASBBDT, though. It doesn't fit my purposes and goals (no HT).

I'm surprised nobody came out with a "sharknado" themed PC boolit this week.

[Yodogsandman]

Hey, I got some numbers! Finally! The following are all using WW case with 30-06 headstamps that have been fired 16 times and trimmed once to square them up, WLR primers, 301gr NEI 358 282GC boolit.

48.0gr IMR4064 lubed about 2050 FPS (only 5 shots, had to learn how to use chrony again)
48.0gr IMR4064 PC'd 2141 FPS average, 39 ES and 18 SD
49.0gr IMR4064 PC'd 2170 FPS, 21 ES and 11 SD ( pushed the wrong button after viewing so, lost data)

All groups were terrible! Will shoot for groups some other day without the chrony.

[35 shooter]

Wow, pretty good stats on that 49 gr. load. Have you shot that load lately with a lubed boolit or just the pc?

[Yodogsandman]

Just the PC. The direction the ES an SD are going, I'm going to keep putting powder to it (a little). In prior lubed loads, I think it really didn't go seriously south until 51gr, will have to look. Going to try some more fully coated red ones with more powder and also start trying the black ones (half PC'd) for comparison.

[35 shooter]

Just the PC. The direction the ES an SD are going, I'm going to keep putting powder to it (a little). In prior lubed loads, I think it really didn't go seriously south until 51gr, will have to look. Going to try some more fully coated red ones with more powder and also start trying the black ones (half PC'd) for comparison.

Hope you have good luck with the powder coat. I've got a few rounds loaded with 54 gr. imr 4350 at different seating depths to see if i can tighten the groups a bit with the 358009. Also have a few 200 gr. boolits loaded with 54 1/2 gr. imr 4350 to run across the chrony sometime this weekend if the rain leaves me alone. Looking for 2350 fps or better. with the 200 gr. boolit with the 4350.
Guess we'll see.

[Yodogsandman]

Thanks, hope that weather breaks your way. Lately it seems like the conditions change by the minute. Yesterday it was sunny, no wind, then cloudy and gusty, then raining and gusts to 20 MPH, then back again to sunny with no wind. I won't be shooting, nothings loaded up so, I'll be working on that.

Thinking about that ASBBDT method.... Some guys are double or triple coating their boolits. They're shaking and baking up to 3 times, cooling the boolits between coats. So, I don't see why you couldn't let the boolits cool after curing then reheating to 400 degrees for 30-40 minutes and quenching them. I think you can HT down to 375 degrees. There might be a longer aging period after. It might be worth trying. The powder's on sale at Harbor Freight right now for $3.99 per pound. A pound would do a lot of boolits.

To tighten my groups, I need to figure out why my groups are dispersing horizontally. It's just on the 35 Whelen. I also shot 30-30 and 6.5x55 and for what I was doing they did OK. I'm thinking it's because the scope is mounted too far forward causing me to have to crane my neck forward. I'm not a benchrester but, I can normally do OK. I can normally squeak out 1/2" to 5/8" groups with almost all of my rifles with reloaded jacketed bullets. I know they shoot better than I do and they're just sporting weight guns with cheap 3-9x glass.

[35 shooter]

Yodogsandman have you tried a slower powder, or different powder in your whelen? Certainly doesn't sound like your shootings at fault. I do like a scope mounted as far forward as i can but without having to strain to get there as that can certainly make it hard to keep head position the same each time on the stock and could cause a bit of parallax problem. It can also cause a different pressure on the stock each time affecting recoil direction.
Not saying that's what's causing the horizontal though.....just thinking out loud.
I'm confident you'll get it all figured out.:D

[35 shooter]

Good day at the range with the 358009 today. I tried a couple of different seating depths with the 54 gr. imr 4350 load and it made a big difference. Now i can't wait to try it with the 48 gr. load.

(1) 54 gr. imr 4350 seated 3.166"....4 shots after foul shot in .917" @ 100 yds.
(2) 54 gr. imr 4350 seated 3.160".... 4 shots in 1.276" @ 100 yds.
It was good to finally see this load shoot better than 2" groups. Nose band still contacts the throat but only the front edge lightly.
Of course more groups are in order to see just what the best depth will be, but it's in a good place for now.
At 2222 fps. this will be a good hunting load for this boolit

I also chronoed my 200 gr. noe boolit with 54 1/2 gr. of imr 4350
5 shots in 1.359" @ 100 yds.
2,230 ,2,227,2208,2245,and2232 fps. for an average of 2228 fps.
what surprises me this load is 1/2 gr. more powder than the 280 gr. boolit load, but is only 6 fps faster with the 200 gr. boolit?
Chrony was set up @ 10 feet in front of muzzle. I changed batteries for the last 2 shots just in case the old battery was giving out and got pretty much the same thing.
I was expecting at least another 100 fps between the 2 boolit weights.
I don't have a lot of experience with chrony's but could muzzle blast be interfering with the chrono reading? Or does this sound right?

[TXGunNut]

Sounds like success indeed with that 358009! At that velocity you could punch thru a 10" dia. pine tree to take out a deer standing behind it. ;-) Don't get me started on Chrony's, mine has me scratching my head over a week later and it had a fresh battery. Other loads that day shot to predicted velocity so it's not the Chrony.

[35 shooter]

Thanks, it IS my new favorite boolit for my whelen.

[Yodogsandman]

Wow! Good shooting! I'm almost ready to pull out the last of my IMR4350 and try it for myself.

I used to check my chrony by shooting a string of match .22LR because of their consistency. I think I got that from the directions that came with the chrony. I only did this when I questioned the accuracy of the chrony. I bought a few boxes with the same lot number just for this purpose, now if I could only remember where I wrote those numbers down....

[35 shooter]

Thanks yodogsandman. I wasn't looking for THAT big of an improvement with seating depth. Kind of thought i'd have to tweak the load a bit too, but hey, i'll take it.:smile:
On the chrono thing, i just thought maybe i had it too close to the muzzle or something, since there wasn't much difference at all between the vel. of the 200 and 280 gr. boolit with virtually the same load.
I guess it is what it is and i'm very pleased with the results! Accuracy is always most important for me. Maybe because of the way the different weight boolits are seated makes them act alike from friction in the bore? Who knows? Who cares? Their both shooting great.

Now to get some time to really work with the pb version of the 358009, but that'll be another story someday.
Thanks so much for everyone's input, pic's and load sharing, i learn something on this site everyday.
Time to put this little project to rest. Noe's 358009 boolit is a winner in my book!:bigsmyl2:

[Yodogsandman]

On your 200gr load, the powder might be burning too slowly behind the lighter boolit. The boolit exits the bore too quickly before enough pressure is built to push it out faster. The weight is the drag. Your 358009 is much heavier causing more drag and allowing your powder to burn more efficiently, building pressure better prior to your boolit exiting the bore. I can't remember if you tried a slightly faster burning powder during your 200gr trials but, it might be worth a try. Seriously, if I was getting your groups, I'd be kissing that rifle!

[35 shooter]

On your 200gr load, the powder might be burning too slowly behind the lighter boolit. The boolit exits the bore too quickly before enough pressure is built to push it out faster. The weight is the drag. Your 358009 is much heavier causing more drag and allowing your powder to burn more efficiently, building pressure better prior to your boolit exiting the bore. I can't remember if you tried a slightly faster burning powder during your 200gr trials but, it might be worth a try. Seriously, if I was getting your groups, I'd be kissing that rifle!

That makes sense about the pressure thing. Probably why the 200 gr. boolit was working best with a crimp. I also took a look back at the data accurate powders sent my brother on aa 4350 powder and their start load for a 204 gr. lyman boolit is 54 gr. @ 2220 fps. Also they show 55 gr. as max with the 358009 @ 2203 fps....very close to what i came up with considering imr 4350 is a tad faster powder. If i remember right i went as high as 56 gr. of imr 4350 with my 200 gr. boolits but was getting into 2" plus groups and primers were beginning to flatten a bit. I may go back and push up a bit on the powder charge with the 200 gr. noe and see if the accuracy will come back in at a bit faster speed. Accurate powders shows you can go to 60 gr. aa 4350 (compressed) with the 204 gr. lyman for 2523 fps.
As far as faster powders for the 200 gr. noe, i have pushed it to about 2500 fps by the lyman manual with imr 3031, but accuracy was better around 2400 fps. I've pushed to about 2400 fps. with h4895 which was a good load. I do like the overall consistency of the 4350 best so far though. I couldn't find much hard data on imr 4350 in the whelen so i didn't push very hard with it with my 200 gr. noe boolit and just stopped when accuracy went south and the primer began to flatten. Case head expansion still measured the same at that point though and no breech face marks on the case head.

As you say though, the way it's shooting, i'm happy right where it's at!!!:bigsmyl2:

[TXGunNut]

On one piece of paper, 4350 is too slow for the 200 class boolits in the 35 Whln. On the target, the piece of paper that counts, 4350 powders have quite a bit to offer. I'm going to try 4895 and 3031 and maybe a few other powders after hunting season but I can always come back to the (too slow ;-)) H4350.

[35 shooter]

On one piece of paper, 4350 is too slow for the 200 class boolits in the 35 Whln. On the target, the piece of paper that counts, 4350 powders have quite a bit to offer. I'm going to try 4895 and 3031 and maybe a few other powders after hunting season but I can always come back to the (too slow ;-)) H4350.

LOL i was thinking the same thing, even though i wound up with great loads with both the 200 and 280 gr. boolits with 4350, i still want to revisit 3031 and 4895. I had a really good load for the 200 gr. with both powders and i want to see how they do with the Ben's Red lube i'm using now.
As far as 4350 with the 200 gr. boolits, the speed can be pushed up a bit from where i stopped at 56 gr. of imr 4350 but i don't know if the accuracy would come back. Best accuracy was at 54 to 54 1/2 gr.

Speed was easy to obtain with 3031 on the upper end with the 200 gr. boolits and may be just the thing for your slightly shorter bbl. Most of the groups i shot with it back then were 3 shot groups, but i shot some 5 shot groups once i found a load and the accuracy held.
Might be a waste of time, but i even want to try the 358009 with the faster 3031.
Having said all that , i WILL be stocking a lot of 4350!:bigsmyl2:

[35 shooter]

Just got word tonight that my brother in Colorado got an over the counter left over elk tag. He'll be using an h&r 35 whelen with the 358009 noe boolit and aa 4350 powder. He's got a great place to hunt and seems to always get it done once he gets a tag. I'm really pulling for him this time, as he'll be using boolits that i cast for him!
He also got a mule deer tag, but has to use his muzzle loader for that.

[TXGunNut]

Is this the brother that won't let you borrow any 9 1/2 primers? And you're casting his hunting boolits? LOL
I don't know what went wrong when I tried 3031, I think it was early in the game and I may have blamed the powder for something that wasn't it's fault. ;-) I'll check my notes, seems either 3031 or 4895 was up around 2400 fps.
4350 won't go to waste around here, either. My 30-06's like both flavors with a very slight preference for the H4350.

[35 shooter]

48 gr. of 3031 shot very well with my 200 gr. noe. Also 48 gr. h4895. If i remember right you had pretty good speed results with 4895 with your ranch dog boolit.
Yea, i still cast boolits for my brother.[smilie=l: I think he's pretty hooked on the 358009, but he's gotta hurry now and finish his load developement. Elk season's right around the corner for him.

[35 shooter]

Just had to go back to the range and try the plain base 358009 version with the shorter seating depth that worked so well with the gc loads.
12 grains of unique had been shooting 2" groups @ 100 yds with my longer seating depth.

(1) 12 gr. unique 280 gr. pb seated 3.166" 4 shots in 1.109" @ 100 yds. after foul shot.
(2) 12 gr. unique 280 gr. pb seated 3.161" 4 shots in 1.042" @ 100 yds.
For whatever reason, the 5th shot went straight down and opened this group to 1.619"
Can't wait to try small game hunting with this load![smilie=w:

[TXGunNut]

Sounds like you're on to something with this seating depth exercise, congrats!

[Yodogsandman]

WoW! Great shooting! A 35 Whelen for small game? Think you can get full penetration with that boolit and load?:kidding:

[35 shooter]

Sounds like you're on to something with this seating depth exercise, congrats!

Thanks Tx. This is a rather long boolit, so i guess the seating is pretty critical on it? Hoping i can get a bit of speed out of this plain base now that the depth is right on it. I'm guessing it's about 1300 to 1350 fps with this load. I've got a can of 4227 i want to try with it, but the start load is about 1600 fps according to lyman.

[35 shooter]

WoW! Great shooting! A 35 Whelen for small game? Think you can get full penetration with that boolit and load?:kidding:

Think it might be a bit over the top for a squirrel load? I sure won't be throwing 280 gr. boolits through the treetops lol, but they better not get on the side of the tree or on the ground.
Seriously though it appears my "ol contrary" really likes the 358009 boolit from mild to wild loads.

[Yodogsandman]

Be careful with that 4227, I'm reading that it's position sensitive even with heavy boolits. Associated with hang fires, also.

[35 shooter]

Be careful with that 4227, I'm reading that it's position sensitive even with heavy boolits. Associated with hang fires, also.

I've used it in the past with 44 mag. revolvers and it was a great cast powder for that purpose. I've never used it in rifles, may have to use a filler to take up the extra space in the case. 4759 hasn't worked with or without a filler with this boolit so far, but maybe i need to try it again with the new seating depth. Wish i had some 2400 to try with it.

Have you shot anymore of your pc boolits lately?

[Yodogsandman]

No, it's been breezy. I won't go if I'm accuracy testing like this. I still have the three different O.A.L.'s to try in my 35 Whelen. Trying different O.A.L.'s on the 6.5x55, too. I've decided that I can't hold well enough for good 100 yard groups using the youth model handy 30-30. I'm trying different boolits at 50 yards with that now.

So, to kill time this week, I scavenged some range scrap, cleaned it, smelted some of the scrap down to try on non-critical loads, smelted a bucket of COWW, converted some range pick up .270 Win brass to 35 Whelen, mixed up an alloy with the range scrap and cast up some Lee311-115F boolits, supervised my older son on his first bedding job on his .308 and got a new windshield on the truck.

[35 shooter]

You did have a busy week and sounds like you got quite a bit done. Good on you for helping your son along in the shooting sports.
Hope the seating depth experiment works out for you. It always pays to try it, but i don't think i remember it ever affecting groups as much as it has with this boolit. It flat cut an inch off the groups except with the 48 gr. 4350 load with the gc., as it's still just over an inch.
All i know for sure is i've had more fun (and frustration) shooting cast boolits for the last year or so than i ever did shooting jacketed....I'm hooked for life!:)

[Yodogsandman]

I'm hoping to get results as good as yours by changing the O.A.L.'s. If this doesn't work, I'm jumping the fence and trying some IMR4350! Heard good stuff about AA2520, too.

I have 4 adult kids, 2 and 2, they all hunt and fish. When they were younger, I kept thier guns fed with cast boolits for practice. Now, it's on to perfect some boolit loads for the grand kids to use. That's what the 6.5x55 and 30-30 loads are for. I have a few years before they'll be ready. I'd better stock up on lead for another generation of practice loads!

[35 shooter]

Keep up the good work with the generations and good on you for taking the time to do it.
If you try the 4350 i hope it works for you and believe it will. Evidentally according to what happened between TxGuNut's rifle and mine, it pays to try different brands of it if one doesn't work. My brother has settled on aa4350 for his whelen.
I'm glad the gc 358009 boolits worked out well in mine so i can really start working with the plain base now. If i have good luck working up a hunting load with them i'll report on em sometime.
The pb boolit in rifles will be new territory for me, so time to do some research and ask questions and learn something new.:)

[TXGunNut]

The pb boolit in rifles will be new territory for me, so time to do some research and ask questions and learn something new.-35 shooter

Just spent my loading room therapy time installing GC's and I don't mind telling you PB boolits are looking better all the time. Whenever possible my new moulds will be PB and a few may get modified to cast PB boolits. I've learned a lot about PB's from Ben's threads, just wish I could shoot as well as he does...with a camera or a rifle!

[35 shooter]

Wow! I had high hopes for the PB 358009 in my rifle, but other than 12 gr. of unique, i haven't got it to shoot yet. Today i tried 24, 25 and 26 gr. of imr 4227 with a filler and got 12" mostly vertical groups. I tried 4759 before and got pretty much the same.
Leading reared it's ugly head today also. 24 gr. of 4227 is supposed to be 1651 fps. according to Lyman info i've seen printed on internet. 12 gr. of unique shoots just over an inch @ 100 yds now with the new seating depth @ about 1350 fps? Can't believe it's stripping the lands @ 1650 fps., but maybe so....time for a pound test of the chamber.
It's got good contact with the throat and rifling from the nose band forward sized @ .360" dia. just looking at an extracted round.
Oh well, i'm through with it for now as i have the gc loads for hunting and the season is getting close. Looks like i've got some learning to do to get this rifle shooting pb though.:coffee:

[TXGunNut]

Can't recall, have you tried 2400?

[35 shooter]

Can't recall, have you tried 2400?

Haven't been able to find it locally, but more and more powders are showing up around here all the time. But no, i haven't tried it. I'm gonna try and ease up with the unique a bit more for now and see what happens with it.

[TXGunNut]

That's an awfully big case for a little dab of fast powder. Can't figure out why it works in 30-30 or 32WS so it follows my contrarian logic that it just might work in the 35 Whln.

[lastborn]

tag for later reference

[35Whelen]

Haven't been able to find it locally, but more and more powders are showing up around here all the time. But no, i haven't tried it. I'm gonna try and ease up with the unique a bit more for now and see what happens with it.

Bringing this old post back to life, as the classic round and bullet need to stay alive.

35 Shooter....have you done anymore with the round and tried other powders?

If you have some IMR 4831...give it a try. I had wonderful success with it using the NOE 360-310 Thumper. Didn't have a chrono set up and just shot for group. Amazing how well it worked in my rifle . Sized to .3595, two coats of Ben's Liquid lube after heat treating COWW with 2-3% tin. Estimates on velocity were north of 1900 fps....some more seasoned shooters than me suggested higher.
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