Help me with a load for an M1 Carbine

[cpaspr]

I detailed my search for a mold for my M1 Carbine here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?227179-Which-mold-for-30-Carbine.

Now I need help with the actual loading. As stated near the end of that thread, in order to keep the bullets from jamming into the lands I need to seat them to about 1.610" COL. At that length, I'm still not compressing the powder, but it seems quite short compared to the max COL of 1.680".

Here is the quote from that thread detailing my thought process:
I finally got some 309-120-R bullets cast up last weekend. Or was it two ago? I forget. Anyway, I just loaded three up for fit, varying COLs. Max COL is 1.680". At 1.673", the top lube groove is fully exposed, and the bullet is being jammed into the lands upon loading into the chamber. At 1.658", the middle drive band is completely covered, and the shell mouth is near the bottom of the top lube groove. Still jamming into the lands, by .050". Seating the bullet to 1.611", the mouth of the shell completely covers the top lube groove and just clears the bottom of the top driving band. No land marks after loading into the chamber. What has me concerned about this is that it appears to be compressing the load (12.0g of 2400). Hold on, I'll check the math.

The loose powder is .337" from the case mouth. The primed, sized shell is 1.288" long. The bullet is .693" long. At 1.611" COL, there is .370" of the bullet outside the case, so there is .323" inside the case. Which means there is .014" between the top of the powder and the bottom of the GC. So, not compressed. That surprised me; I thought sure it was compressing the load.

Anyway, logic appears to tell me I should load these to 1.611" COL, to cover that top lube groove. But does that cause too much pressure?

Help from the deep pool of collected wisdom here is requested. I won't shoot anything nor load any more till I hear back from y'all.

For any of you who use the Lee C309-120-R with 2400 powder in the M1 Carbine, how long do you load them? And how long if using a different powder?

Thanks in advance.

[Larry Gibson]

I consider 12 gr of 2400 as a max load in the 30 carbine for 311359s, 311465s and the Lee 309-120-R. Start at 10 gr and work up to 12 gr. Might have problems with 12 gr as the 311465 and 309-120s can eat up a lot of case capacity. Doesn't matter how long I seat them as you've got to seat them off the lands for the bolt to reliable close. Sounds like you've found the seating depth for your M1 Carbine.

I prefer H110/296 for use in the 30 Carbine but if 2400 is whatcha got then it works.

Larry Gibson

[cpaspr]

Thanks for responding Larry. I was hoping you would respond. I tried to send you a PM several days ago but got a message that your inbox was full.

I'll back it down to 10 gr and work up. I mostly wanted to make sure that the shorter COL wasn't going to be a problem. Plus I wanted to know what others who load that particular bullet are doing. I don't think I have a short chamber, as I can load jacketed softpointed bullets all the way to max COL without problems, but this bullet is much longer before it starts the ogive.

I have almost 2 pounds of 2400, so that is what I was going to use. I read somewhere that H110/296 was the original military powder for the .30 Carbine. Is that correct? If so, I should probably get some when the 2400 is gone.

[zomby woof]

I use 1.610 for that boolit. I agree with Larry, 296 is best for M1C.

[Larry Gibson]

My apologies cpaspr, I wasn't aware my PM box was full. We used to get a message as to when it was getting full and when it was full. Apparently something has changed.....probably an "upgrade"?

Anyways the 2400 will work for you. Also, contrary to what some believe.......even I was not around when the .30 Carbine cartridge was developed and first loaded. Thus I have no 1st hand knowledge that H110 "was the original military powder for the .30 Carbine". [smilie=l: I have read for years by some pretty competent authorities that it was however. I take their word for it and have tried numerous different powders in the .30 Carbine since I started loading for it in '67. I always come back to H110 as giving the best performance with bullets from 77 to 110 gr jacketed bullets and cast of 105 - 123 gr.

Larry Gibson

[abunaitoo]

I use 8.0 of Blue dot.
Works for me.

[spfd1903]

H110 has always given the most consistent accuracy in my Underwood. Have tried 2400 and Acc #9 in a series of charge weights, but H110 always had the edge. Viht N110 works even better.

[cpaspr]

Update -

I loaded 5 groups of 5 rounds each, from 10.0 to 12.0gr of 2400, behind the Lee 309-120-R, gaschecked, sized to .308 and seated to 1.600" COL. All shooting was done at 25 yards. I first fired 5 jacketed rounds into the center target of 5 to check for elevation and windage. Roughly 6" diameter for each target on the paper.

Fired the first 5, 10.0 gr, grouped nicely, a bit high and left. (One of the bullets clipped the wire frame holding the cardboard my target was stapled to and blew about 5" off the top of it as it bent the next 3" out the back of the cardboard. That's the second time this frame has been hit. The last one was a .40"S&W that simply bent the frame. This one cut it. Amazing what a bit more velocity will do.)

Each group shot good, nice tight groups. No primer flattening, no apparent leading. I know I was only shooting 5 at a time, but I was mostly looking for groups and signs of overpressure. The final group of 5 (12.0gr) I shot at a 1" circle I drew midway between the two right-most targets. The sight post completely covered the circle, but I still got a nice tight group anyway.

I'll get a .309" sizing die one of these days, but for now, the .308" seems to be working okay. Now that I know they'll shoot okay, I'll determine the loading that grouped the tightest and the closest to POA, and load up enough to actually have some fun with. And get my father out to shoot his carbine as well. CMP purchase in about 1962. $22.50 delivered. Sigh.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I have been using 14.o grains of 4227, or at least 13-13.5 as its hard to get 14 all into the case with an RCBS RN bullet of 120 grains. It has worked well with accuracy similar to GI ball. Use a slight taper crimp. It feeds well and cycles the action. LLS

[cpaspr]

I have been using 14.o grains of 4227, or at least 13-13.5 as its hard to get 14 all into the case with an RCBS RN bullet of 120 grains. It has worked well with accuracy similar to GI ball. Use a slight taper crimp. It feeds well and cycles the action. LLS

The first 5 jacketed rounds I shot were the last of the ones I had loaded with 4227. I don't have access to the load data. The last 5 I shot after the cast boolits were 5 110gr jacketed soft point rounds over 13.1gr of 2400, loaded to 1.678". They and the 11.5gr loads and the 12.0gr loads all shot tight groups to point of aim. Even though the mold (Lee 309-120-R) is supposed to be dropping 120gr boolits, the one I weighed this morning was only 108.9gr. I'll double check and weigh several, both individually and as a group for an average, to make sure that one I weighed didn't have an air pocket.

[avogunner]

A long time ago I settled on 2400 as my powder of choice for my 1943 Inland. Not so much as it gives the absolute best results but more for economy. I also use it in reduced rifle loads and the hotter handgun loads so it lessens the number of different powder I need to stock. Anyway, I've been shooting this load for years and it suits my needs just perfectly.

108883

[jimb16]

I generally use 14 gr. of 2400 myself with a 115 gr gas checked pill. I get excellent accuracy and great reliability with that load. And I use it in all 5 of my carbines with good results.

[Prospector Howard]

14 grains of 2400? Way too hot in my book and my Lyman handbook. I agree with Larry, 12 gr is close to max for boolits in that weight category. I've always used 11.7 gr with the Lyman 311359. Also, if you can get some of the 820 pulldown 30 carbine powder, I've found it works really well with cast and jacketed.

[jonk]

I use that mold, sized to .309. I just seat the bullet deep enough that it feeds smoothly. My load is some WC820 surplus, which is very close to AA9 or H110; original charge was 15 grains with a 110 gr bullet, I worked up starting at 11 and found best accuracy- significantly better than GI ball ammo- was with a 14 gr load. That's probably about max for that combo, so naturally work up to it. Runs 1900 fps or so.

Have shot a few thousand, no leading issues.

[cpaspr]

I use that mold, sized to .309. I just seat the bullet deep enough that it feeds smoothly. My load is some WC820 surplus, which is very close to AA9 or H110; original charge was 15 grains with a 110 gr bullet, I worked up starting at 11 and found best accuracy- significantly better than GI ball ammo- was with a 14 gr load. That's probably about max for that combo, so naturally work up to it. Runs 1900 fps or so.

Have shot a few thousand, no leading issues.

Which mold - the Lee 309-120-R, or the Lyman 311359?

[USSR]

I use 12.5gr of 2400 with the bullet produced by the group buy mould that was offered here many years ago. I believe it is supposed to be a 120gr bullet, but I cast it using a mix of monotype and pure, so it comes out at ~105gr. Here is the bullet.

108939

Don

[jimb16]

When I use that boolit, I run 12 gr of 2400.

[cpaspr]

Jonk and jimb16 (and anybody else that responds similarly)

When you say "that mold" or "that boolit", which mold or boolit are you referring to? We've discussed several here, and without a specific identification, I can't tell what you are referring to.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, because I really do want the information, but your responses don't have enough to know what mold or boolit you are referring to, so are basically useless.

[jonk]

Which mold - the Lee 309-120-R, or the Lyman 311359?

Lee 309 120 R. Further info: Winchester small rifle primers, bullets using Hornady gas checks, lubed with regular 50/50 alox/beeswax lube.

In fact, I'm going to be shooting that load at camp perry in a few weeks.

[WILCO]

108939



Great looking boolits Don!

[cpaspr]

Lee 309 120 R. Further info: Winchester small rifle primers, bullets using Hornady gas checks, lubed with regular 50/50 alox/beeswax lube.

In fact, I'm going to be shooting that load at camp perry in a few weeks.

Thank you. That makes all the difference. I'm not familiar with WC820. Is 14.0gr a compressed load?

[dogmower]

I use the lee 120r gc mold, lyman #2 hardness, powder coated, with 12gr. of IMR 4227, seated to crimp into the top groove. Cycles 100% and can hit a man sized silhouette at 300 meters if I do my part.

[LivewireBlanco]

Great info here guys!