Win 94 38-55

[Denver]

A friend recently acquired a nice old Winchester 1894 rifle with a round barrel and full magazine in 38-55 WCF. He's a handloader with considerable experience, but hasn't loaded cast for rifle and has asked me to help develop CB loads for it. I of course plan to slug the bore to get an idea where to start. Just wondering what I might find as to chamber dimensions. As far as a mold, would the Lee mold be a good choice for a starter? Any suggestions appreciated.

Thanks D

[45coltnut]

Denver,

I started out with the Lee 379-250. Casts good boolits and my 1979 commemerative molded 38-55 shoots them well with IMR 3031. I think its a good one to start out with. The only problem I could see you running into is the boolits dropping at .379-.380 and the bore may well be .380+. This is my problem and I get a little leading due to bore fit. So, this was the perfect excuse and I just ordered a Accurate mold in .382 and the same 250 grains.

As for chamber size, I'm able to shoot both 2.085" and the longer 2.125" brass. I'll stick with the 2.125" as long as my brass holds out just so the boolit is closer to the lands. But, both lengths shoot well (1.5"-2" at 100 yards with peep sight).

[skeettx]

Yes, I use 3031 and a .382 bullet and seat the bullet on top of the powder so it
just kisses the rifling. But I am using a Ruger #1 and a Marlin Cowboy.
Mike

[pietro]

A friend recently acquired a nice old Winchester 1894 Rifle with a round barrel and full magazine in 38-55 WCF.

Thanks D

FWIW, your friend grabbed a winner............................... While octagon barrels were optional at the time, I'd WAG that most buyers went for the option, since after all these years it turns out that the standard round barrel in a .38-55 M1894 Rifle (model) is scarce indeed.


.

[Denver]

Denver,

I started out with the Lee 379-250. Casts good boolits and my 1979 commemerative molded 38-55 shoots them well with IMR 3031. I think its a good one to start out with. The only problem I could see you running into is the boolits dropping at .379-.380 and the bore may well be .380+. This is my problem and I get a little leading due to bore fit. So, this was the perfect excuse and I just ordered a Accurate mold in .382 and the same 250 grains.

As for chamber size, I'm able to shoot both 2.085" and the longer 2.125" brass. I'll stick with the 2.125" as long as my brass holds out just so the boolit is closer to the lands. But, both lengths shoot well (1.5"-2" at 100 yards with peep sight).

What I'm concerned about as to chamber size is that if the bore slugs oversize then a cartridge loaded with a boolit to fit the bore will be too large to chamber. I think that was a problem with some of the early Marlin Cowboy rifles.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I have the same rifle and shoot it often using 3031 a around 1200-1300 fps. I use an original Winchester mold (single cavity) that drops bullets cast from straight wheelweight metal at .380" so have no problem with proper fit. No leading and decent accuracy for a lever. The 3031 burns clean and recoil is not a bother. The same arrangement in a 94 SRC also does well. LLS

[fouronesix]

You're right in that the first concern is having a tight chamber neck that allows a max bullet diameter of only .378-9" but with a bore that has .380+" groove diameter. That was common in original 94 38-55s. Exactly which length brass to use would be secondary but usually good to use as long a case as is practical.

One option would be to load softer 20:l bullets and a charge of BP to obturate the bullet up to near full groove diameter. The other option that some do, but I won't in an original 94 in good shape, is to ream the chamber out to accept larger diameter bullets that are groove diameter up to about +.002" larger than groove.

Both of the originals I've had I used a third option and went with as large a GAS CHECKED bullet as would chamber. Seemed to work for me without having to alter the original rifle.

[oneokie]

Welcome to the world of 38-55 itis. My bore slugs 0.3795" and I am able to load and chamber 0.381" boolits using the Starline 2.125 brass. My chamber will only allow loaded rounds of 0.397" neck diameter to chamber. There are reamers available to open the chamber up to 0.400" in the case mouth area to allow the use of larger diameter boolits and not encounter the chambering issues.

[skeettx]

Some folks even use the 375 Win case as it is shorter and may allow for a larger
diameter bullet
Mike

[cwheel]

Short of doing the actual slugging of the barrel, look up the SN and figure out the year produced. What I hear is that Winchester did a bore dia. change just before 1920. Something to do with the transition from a BP round to the smokeless version ammo. Old original bores in decent shape run in the .379 range, and that is what mine is for my 1917 production. Story goes on to say that newer guns have a somewhat smaller bore in the .376-.377 range. Neither are much of a problem until it comes to the brass used. In mine, I can't chamber a cast boolit larger than .381 without using Starline brass that has thinner walls. To use Winchester brass, I find it necessary to run a .377 reamer into the case neck after sizing the brass, and then use a .379 expander plug. Outside of the size issues, I run 3031 as well, only my 265 gas checked round in this one runs @1600fps. Mine is used almost exclusively for a hunting rifle, not a range gun. If strictly for range use, I'd be loading down to the 1200-1300 fps range. Boolit I cast is a old Ideal 375296 gas check mold that I think is out of production, came with the rifle. Mold drops boolits @.382, just enough room to go to .381 with the size and lube die. I have reloaded many different rounds over the last 50 years, some of the biggest challenges reloading have come from this cal. and this rifle. When things come together, great rifle, sure puts deer down hard.
Chris

[Outpost75]

A solution for older rifles with tight Chambers and loose bores is to use the shorter 2.085" cases, then have Erik Ohlen at www.hollowpointmold.com cut an RWS style "stop ring" of 0.390" diameter and 0.060" width cut ahead of the crimp grove to take up the extra space at the chamber mouth and to seal the throat.

[Denver]

As far as what brass to use, I don't know what he has available yet, but he has come factory jacketed rounds. I was thinking of fire forming some 30-30 brass. It will be shorter than factory, but should be okay to work up a load by seating the boolit out and shooting them single shot. No?

[cwheel]

I've had the best luck with the 2.085 brass being able to fit the chamber properly. Problem with all of the different length brass is the ability of the loading die set to give a proper crimp for a tubular magazine. In the end I bought a Lee FCD and trimmed it in the lathe to fit the 2.085 case. Fire formed 30-30 cases will work, but I don't have a crimp die that will set for those. Think the fire formed 30-30 cases end up in the 2.00 OAL range. Think these would be best in a single shot rifle and not a 94 with a tube magazine. I think a Lee FCD could be trimmed by a machinist to crimp even these shorter 30-30 fire formed cases solving the problem, but that die would only work on cases in the 2.000 range and nothing else. These FCD dies are cheap enough that you could trim to what ever case you need to load and have several on hand. Some load 38-55 with the old 2F BP loads and I can see where the longer cases would have the advantage with a higher volume for the BP.
Chris

[Wind]

Hey there Denver -- A bore slug is essential to determine bullet diameter. Long (2.125") Starline will give you the best odds for large bullet/chamber fit. They are on the cusp of running a batch so it wouldn't hurt to sign up for a couple hundred cases. It can be trimmed as well and if needed. RCBS Cowboy dies will cover all the sizing, belling, and crimping issues easily. 10 grains of Unique and a 240 to 260 grain bullet will get you started with an accurate, comfortable load. Here is a Marlin in action...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL5FrxeeOVM&list=UUNvs-eikNypaitinLHGw9tA

Hope this helps. Best regards. Wind

[Denver]

I slugged the bore and it mikes at .379-.380 thru the tight spots. Between the front sight and magazine dovetails to the rear sight dovetail, the slug pushed fairly easy, so obviously the bore is larger there. I turned a couple slugs from aluminum @ .380 and .378 and seated them in fired cases. The action wouldn't close on the .380 but would on the .378, but was tight. I ordered some boolits from the Bullshop that are gas checked and .377 diameter to try. The brass we have is WW and Dominion. The WW brass is shorter while the dominion brass is closer to 2.125. Also the rifle serial number dates it to 1906.

[Nrut]

Hate to come off sounding contrary but betting the .377" slugs you ordered won't shoot worth a darn with smokeless...
You are going to have to use at least .379" but I am thinking .380"+ would shot even better..
There are ways to accomplish fitting the larger bullets to your chamber and most were given above..

[fouronesix]

It is a smokeless date gun but still no need to push it too hard. Give the .377 GCs from Bullshop a try. The .378" tight chambering seems about right for most of the original M94 38-55s.

If you could be a brass picker and chooser, you could shop around for the thinnest neck wall brass for chambering the largest practical diameter bullet. But in today's market that's not in the cards without a lot of luck.

I found that the gas checked bullets in the 38-55 tend to "compensate" a little for the conundrum of the "tight chamber/large bore" syndrome if the alloy is fairly soft, maybe 9-12 BHN. A powder like Reloader 7 seems to do well in these. My best load in the original M94 38-55 with smokeless was a 250 gr GC bullet of about BHN 10, over 19 gr of Reloader 7 with dacron filler. Whether you use filler or not is up to you and your understanding of how to use it correctly. I tried the various fast powder loads with Unique and Trailboss with only marginal results. I also tried my go-to type powder for rifle straight walls, 5744, but also with only marginal results.

[Nrut]

Denver,
As per Wind's post above the proper brass will be available in July from the manufacturer Starline..
You may be able to find smaller quantities of their brass from other vendors that cater to the cowboy action shooters for awhile until it dries up..

https://www.starlinebrass.com/order-online/caliber.cfm/caliber/38-55/

I can load .381" bullets using Starline brass in my 94, Marlin CB, and H&R Target ..
In my Uberti Low Walls using Starline brass I can load .382"-.383" bullets..

What you can load in your rifle depends on it's chamber size, but Starline brass gives you a fighting chance..

As far as the LEE molds go I have an older one that throws .381" with WW..
But like the 38-55 rifles themselves I read where the LEE molds are all over the place on size also..
For the price I would get one to see if it will throw a bullet that will your rifle..

Good luck with your 38-55..
The 38-55 is an extremely versatile cartridge once you get them figured out and a lot of fun to boot!..

[cwheel]

In the beginning the tight throat was my biggest problem. Mine slugged @ .379. I use a old Ideal mold that came with the gun ( 375296 ) and it throws .382, I size to .381. Brass turned out to be quite the issue due to the thickness of the case mouth added to the .381 boolit. Had several hundred WW 2.085 OAL. To make these thicker cases work in my rifle, I sized the cases with a RCBS cowboy die set, and then lathe reamed the cases with a .377 reamer a little past where the boolit would seat. Also had to make a custom expander plug to .379 to set up the right press between the brass case and the boolit. All worked out well, but when I need brass again for this, I'm going to get the thinner Starline brass, and that eliminates the internal reaming step, should be able to use their 2.085 brass just fine. I know some here use the longer brass, but the 38-55 case has a slight taper, and the longer the brass gets, the smaller the mouth end of the case gets. Might be fine for a single shot, counterproductive in this Winchester 94. I'd be interested in what production date the SN# gives you on that one. By the bore size I'm guessing, like mine, before 1920.
Chris

[Denver]

In the beginning the tight throat was my biggest problem. Mine slugged @ .379. I use a old Ideal mold that came with the gun ( 375296 ) and it throws .382, I size to .381. Brass turned out to be quite the issue due to the thickness of the case mouth added to the .381 boolit. Had several hundred WW 2.085 OAL. To make these thicker cases work in my rifle, I sized the cases with a RCBS cowboy die set, and then lathe reamed the cases with a .377 reamer a little past where the boolit would seat. Also had to make a custom expander plug to .379 to set up the right press between the brass case and the boolit. All worked out well, but when I need brass again for this, I'm going to get the thinner Starline brass, and that eliminates the internal reaming step, should be able to use their 2.085 brass just fine. I know some here use the longer brass, but the 38-55 case has a slight taper, and the longer the brass gets, the smaller the mouth end of the case gets. Might be fine for a single shot, counterproductive in this Winchester 94. I'd be interested in what production date the SN# gives you on that one. By the bore size I'm guessing, like mine, before 1920.
Chris

The serial # is in the 347000 range and would put at 1906 according the info I found. Was wondering if fire forming cases from 30/30 brass might be another way to go. The cases would be shorter and the case mouth looks pretty thin also.

[cwheel]

Some folks have had good luck with this, but personally I find it to be a pain to use it. 30-30 brass fire forms well but the end case cuts back to 2.00 after trimming the case mouth square. Most all of the fire formed brass ends up there. You have a tubular magazine, rounds have to be crimped in the end. The RCBS cowboy seater die has the roll crimp further up the die for a case that's 2.085 minimum. This boils down to not being able to crimp with that die because the case is to short. If you know a machinist, you can get a Lee Factory Crimp die and have him trim the die body and inner collet to crimp these, and the Lee die is cheap, but you can't use it until it is trimmed and it will only be good for this fire formed brass that is 2.00 long. I'd bite the boolit and order new brass from Starline ( 2.085 long ) and quit trying to rescue the older brass, I've been there, done that and it's not worth the effort to salvage the older stuff or fire form new brass from 30-30. The only thing you will have to have made is a expander plug that is .379 to fit the larger boolits ( I use .381, but some go bigger ) with the proper press fit into the case mouth. The .002 press fit seams to not wrinkle the case walls, and with the thinner walled Starline brass, the loaded round just fits the chamber perfectly. My Winchester came off the production line 11 years after yours did, same bore size. Newer rifles are supposed to have .377 from the factory and present less of a problem for the reloader.
Chris

[cwheel]

One other thing, don't bother with smaller boolits than .381. They just keyhole and lead up the bore, quite a pain to remove the leading. If you had a bore of .377 then it would be fine, but the larger bore doesn't seam to like them. ( at least with smokeless powder ) Those boolits you ordered from Bullshop I'm sure will be of fine quality, a great member, good fellow machinist. But .377 in a bore that slugs .379 is very unlikely to do anything other than lead the bore. I'm sure if Bullshop knew you had a .379 bore, he would advise the same thing. Most likely you need at least .381-.382 dia. to start out with and have a chance of success. Anything smaller than .381 keyholes in mine.
Chris

[TXGunNut]

... The only thing you will have to have made is a expander plug that is .379 to fit the larger boolits...cwheel

The RCBS Cowboy die set includes a .379 expander plug.

http://custombrassandbullets.com/38wi21.html has some Starline 2.125 brass.

[cwheel]

I called RCBS about the expander plug in the Cowboy die set, and sure enough, the bigger one is .3775. That matches the one I have in the box with my set. If using that plug with larger boolits ( .381 or bigger ) it will wrinkle the cases from to much press fit. .0035 is just a little to much press fit for that thin of a case wall. A .379 plug works very well with the .381 boolit, no wrinkles. I ended up making my own to get the .002 fit I wanted, but any machinist can do this simple part. That was the only part necessary to get the RCBS Cowboy die set to work perfectly with the larger bore 38-55. If you had a newer 38-55 made after 1920 with the smaller bore, and were using brass that is 2.085 long, the plug that comes in the die set will work perfectly.
Chris

[krems]

Denver,
I've had the same problem as you have with being able to chamber the correct size bullet with available cases. I have had chambering problems with original win '86's in 40-65, and 40-70 wcf. I solved the problem the same with each rifle. Start with the brass that fits the chamber the closest with the correct size bullet (.380 / .381"). Figure out what max neck diameter is needed to chamber the cartridge. Allow for a .002 -.003" clearance in the neck. Outside neck ream the cases to the desired diameter to allow for chambering. There are many ways to do this but I did it on my lathe and built a mandral to fit the cases tight so when I outside neck reamed the cases it did so evenly around the neck. Very simple project if you have a lathe or know someone who does. After a firing or two and resizing the cases you can't even tell the cases have been neck reamed. Proper reloading and neck expanding dies make the job a lot easier. I much prefer to leave any original Winchester alone and not risk ruining a fine rifle. Much easier and safer to make the brass fit the gun then to make the gun fit the brass. Good luck!

Krems

[krems]

Boy I feel kind of stupid....Cwheel already explained about reaming the cases in an earlier post. I should have paid more attention when I first read them. I think he inside neck reamed the cases where I like to outside neck ream them. Either way works.

Krems

[cwheel]

Krems, I prefer to work with the original chamber size as well and not alter the rifle. I have a lathe as well ( retired machinist ) and a lever collet setup for it in 5C. Made a special collet made for a easy case ID ream. I did try running the reamer in a drill press and holding the case in a fixture in a tool makers vise. That setup would not deliver consistent case wall thickness, left thin spots. You would be surprised how bent some of those Winchester cases were from the factory. First through the sizing die, then neck reamed with a .377 reamer, then through the .379 expander. After seating the .381 boolit, fits the chamber perfectly. The .377 ream job took just enough out of the case mouth that after seating the boolit the case could grow with the .002 boolit press fit and still fit the chamber. From all reports here, Starline brass is thin enough from the factory to eliminate this step, I just had 200 NOS Winchester cases from Midway I wanted to use. If I was to do it again, starting out with the thinner Starline 2.085 long would be the way to go and well worth their asking price.
Chris

[tygar]

Some folks even use the 375 Win case as it is shorter and may allow for a larger
diameter bullet
Mike

Is the converse true? Can you use 38-55 in 375Win after trimming to length?

Was wondering that exact question as I'm trying to decide on making a Mar 336 into one or the other & considering the problems of getting brass.

Since mine will be new I can get whatever size barrel/chamber size I want.

[skeettx]

Yes and NO !
Yes it will fit, NO because the 375 case is constructed to endure more pressure.
The 375 is .375 and the 38-55 in most cases is .378+
So never load 375 loads in 38-55 cases

BUT

Shooting a shortened 38-55 loaded to 38-55 specs should be safe with lead bullets in a 375 Win
if it will chamber

Mike

[tygar]

Yes and NO !
Yes it will fit, NO because the 375 case is constructed to endure more pressure.
The 375 is .375 and the 38-55 in most cases is .378+
So never load 375 loads in 38-55 cases

BUT

Shooting a shortened 38-55 loaded to 38-55 specs should be safe with lead bullets in a 375 Win
if it will chamber

Mike

Thanks. So, I can use 30-30 for 38-55 but it's a little shorter, but is it the same as with the using 375 in 38-55 because it can take higher pressure? If so, then 30-30 could be used in 375, but again, is a little shorter?

Here's another thought; is there any other brass beside 30-30 that can be formed for either the 38-55 or 375?

Thanks
Tom

[TXGunNut]

Other than 356 or 307 W none come to mind, maybe 32-40. I prefer to use correct headstamp brass, especially in this case as I have both the the .375 and the 38-55. My CB 375 loads would probably be safe in a modern 38-55 but I prefer to treat them as distinctly different cartridges and need to be able to identify them easily.

[skeettx]

Yes, get the correct brass, start with 100 and in all reality unless in competition,
that should last the life of the gun.

Of course, I do NOT hold to that number :) :)

Mike

[tygar]

As I already have numerous calibers that use modified brass from other calibers, I am used to it & the way I separate brass by caliber precludes mixing. In addition I will only have one of the 2, either 375 or 38-55.
Tom

[bigted]

i am totally satisfied with my Marlin lever model 1893 in 38-55. it is of the "new smokeless steel" so i can run my 250ish boolits to 1600 FPS with no worries. barrel was shot out so i had it relined with a new 38-55 chamber and the 380 groove diameter for a true 38.

i am bettin that the 38-55 is all you will ever want in a 38 cal. it hits WAY beyond what is expected ... least my 8 inch gong of 1 1/2 inch tells me. couldnt believe the ring with the first hit on it at 100 yds. would not hesitate to pop an ol bull elk with one if the yardage was around 100 yds.

[tygar]

Still trying to decide. Probably be the 375 cause I like all the power I can get. Since I have a brand new 336 to rebarrel & chamber as I see fit, & the 375 is straight wall, I'm leaning that way.

Who knows, the 336 has been in at my friends for a week but havn't even gone to pick it up yet.

I still pondering whether to rebarrel or rebore for the conversion.

[TXGunNut]

I still pondering whether to rebarrel or rebore for the conversion. -tygar

After doing business with JES I won't have to ponder that question. After you get the 336 rebored to .375 you can be looking for a 94 to bore to 38-55. ;-)