9mm ballistic test

[Hunter]

Truthfully I have never been a big fan of the 9mm Luger round. In the spirit of education I set up the same type ballistic test as I have been doing and was surprised how well several of the defensive rounds preformed.

Please take a look and let me know what you think of the article or the 9mm in general.

http://rangehot.com/9mm-luger-ballistic-test/

[tazman]

Thanks for posting. I find it very interesting.

[harley45]

Interesting, the more and more I think on it the more I think a 9mm could be a good bet. I'm seriously considering a 1911 in 9mm to play with. Less recoil faster followups etc.

[9.3X62AL]

As someone who has done the work to conduct performance testing on proposed ammunition selections, I want to thank Hunter and his partner Clinton for all their hard work. Prepping and handling ballistic gelatin is a monumental PITA.

My thoughts on a good 9mm carry round involve the marriage of the 9mm NATO's ballistics to a good controlled-expansion 125 grain JHP of some kind.

[fecmech]

My thoughts on a good 9mm carry round involve the marriage of the 9mm NATO's ballistics to a good controlled-expansion 125 grain JHP of some kind.
My thoughts exactly, a .357 mag automatic!

[bob208]

harley45 even though I like the 1911 have 4 of them. in 9 m/m for the same weight you can carry a hi-power and get 13 rounds. one extra mag and you have half a box of ammo. which should get you out of any trouble you mite get into. that is what I have ben carrying for the last few years. loaded with 124 gr. golden sabers.

[9.3X62AL]

My thoughts exactly, a .357 mag automatic!

My old shop's issue loads for 38 Special and 357 Magnum both use 125 grain JHP bullets, the former running about 975 FPS and the latter about 1425 FPS. The M9 runs a 124 grainer about 1250 FPS, so such a load averages 275 FPS more than the 38 and 175 less than the 357--so the 9mm is little better than halfway to 357 strength compared to the 38. The question is......if 125 grainers "work" for the 38 and 357, why do we persist with the 147 grains Fackler Faux Pas subsonic fraudulence in 9mm? It doesn't have to make sense, I suppose.

[Hunter]

Thank you all for the kind words. I do appreciate them.
.357 mag automatic huh? I want to test the first one please.
I have shot a few 1911s in 9mm and they are sweet for sure but the BHP logic is sound.

[Jupiter7]

Thank you all for the kind words. I do appreciate them.
.357 mag automatic huh? I want to test the first one please.
I have shot a few 1911s in 9mm and they are sweet for sure but the BHP logic is sound.

.357 mag 1911's exist and can be yours:

http://coonaninc.com/

A few videos on Coonan's on YouTube also. Cool idea but impractical. 357sig would be the direct "improvement" of the 9mm with similar 357mag ballistics.

[9.3X62AL]

The 357 SIG is a fine idea that hasn't caught on heavily outside the Southwest. It seems most popular with TX and NM agencies so far. I can't carry it, so there's not much vigor in it for me as a SD cartridge. I already rassle around with the 30 Luger/30 Mauser/7.62 x 25 Tokarev and their tendency to not hold bullets in their dinky necks......not sure I need more of that species of entertainment. I've only fired a couple examples of 357 SIG, a Glock full-size and SIG-Sauer P-226 with a swap barrel. Quite a cartridge!

[Jupiter7]

The 357 SIG is a fine idea that hasn't caught on heavily outside the Southwest. It seems most popular with TX and NM agencies so far. I can't carry it, so there's not much vigor in it for me as a SD cartridge. I already rassle around with the 30 Luger/30 Mauser/7.62 x 25 Tokarev and their tendency to not hold bullets in their dinky necks......not sure I need more of that species of entertainment. I've only fired a couple examples of 357 SIG, a
Glock full-size and SIG-Sauer P-226 with a swap barrel. Quite a cartridge!

TN State Troopers also carry Glocks in .357Sig. Seem to be pretty proud of the fact.

[Petrol & Powder]

The 9mm is one of those cartridges that gets a lot of bad press by people that have a lot of opinion and not a lot of facts. I think it comes from the fact that the cartridge/bullet are small and the knuckle-draggers simply equate small cartridges to poor performance.
The average 115-124 grain 9mm can easily be pushed over 1100 fps. Some of the 115 grn and a few of the 124 grn. +P and +P+ versions can go over 1300 fps in some cases. That's not .357 magnum performance but it's getting close.
With the right bullet and the right load, the 9mm Lugar can be a very effective round. There will always be knuckle-draggers that can't get beyond the diminutive exterior size of the cartridge and therefore will express a very un-informed opinion of the cartridge's performance.

[Petrol & Powder]

The 357 SIG is a fine idea that hasn't caught on heavily outside the Southwest. It seems most popular with TX and NM agencies so far. I can't carry it, so there's not much vigor in it for me as a SD cartridge. I already rassle around with the 30 Luger/30 Mauser/7.62 x 25 Tokarev and their tendency to not hold bullets in their dinky necks......not sure I need more of that species of entertainment. I've only fired a couple examples of 357 SIG, a Glock full-size and SIG-Sauer P-226 with a swap barrel. Quite a cartridge!

The Virginia State Police use the .357 Sig and they seem to like it. it's expensive and a bit obscure but it does work.
Just for some history, when the VSP decided to switch from revolvers to pistols; they went with the 10mm. That pistol, a S&W 1026 was a special model made for the VSP. It only remained in service for a few years before it was replaced by the Sig Sauer P228 in 9mm. That pistol eventually gave way to a DAO 229 in .357 Sig.
They sill have 9mm bullet just not a 9mm casing ;)

[Mik]

The 9mm is one of those cartridges that gets a lot of bad press by people that have a lot of opinion and not a lot of facts. I think it comes from the fact that the cartridge/bullet are small and the knuckle-draggers simply equate small cartridges to poor performance.
The average 115-124 grain 9mm can easily be pushed over 1100 fps. Some of the 115 grn and a few of the 124 grn. +P and +P+ versions can go over 1300 fps in some cases. That's not .357 magnum performance but it's getting close.
With the right bullet and the right load, the 9mm Lugar can be a very effective round. There will always be knuckle-draggers that can't get beyond the diminutive exterior size of the cartridge and therefore will express a very un-informed opinion of the cartridge's performance.

9mm gets bad press for one big reason - gun guys love the .45 like car guys love the mustang. Its cool for many nostalgic reasons that don't really matter when it comes to performance.

[tazman]

I like easy to handle accuracy in a capable cartridge. The 9mm has all of that along with a good magazine capacity. What more can you ask for?

[Hunter]

The 9mm is one of those cartridges that gets a lot of bad press by people that have a lot of opinion and not a lot of facts.
I will admit, I disliked the 9mm Luger before this test and mostly because of what you just said.
I will also admit I was a bit surprised of the results. Learn something everyday.

[Bzcraig]

I have always liked, owned and carried a 9mm. When I gave up on revolvers (thankfully have rekindled my former love of them, just wished I still had the ones I sold) I went to 9's and 45's. I don't criticize the other calibers but just don't believe anything can be gained. The 9's can be loaded hot or the 45 loaded with light bullets and get just as good real world performance. When I bought my first 45 with a double stack magazine, (Para P12) I was convinced it couldn't get any better than that.

[Petrol & Powder]

Approaching an issue with an open mind and a desire to find the truth is necessary if one really wants to learn. I commend you for your work.
Anyone can provide anecdotal evidence concerning a cartridges' perceived strengths or weaknesses. (and many do just that)
I'm not claiming the 9mm Luger is a great handgun cartridge [they all suck in my opinion but it's difficult to carry a shotgun all of the time ;) ] I do believe the 9mm is better than a lot of people are willing to concede.
I'm not a gelatin junkie, nor am I wedded to chronographs and scales. It is results that matter! However, it is difficult to quantify performance without some type of standard test. You can compile and compare the results of actual shootings like Sanow & Marshall did but that brings a lot of statistical error with it.
You can measure things like weight, velocity and penetration in a known media but that's not reality. At least measurements against known standards are repeatable.

[Mik]

My old shop's issue loads for 38 Special and 357 Magnum both use 125 grain JHP bullets, the former running about 975 FPS and the latter about 1425 FPS. The M9 runs a 124 grainer about 1250 FPS, so such a load averages 275 FPS more than the 38 and 175 less than the 357--so the 9mm is little better than halfway to 357 strength compared to the 38. The question is......if 125 grainers "work" for the 38 and 357, why do we persist with the 147 grains Fackler Faux Pas subsonic fraudulence in 9mm? It doesn't have to make sense, I suppose.

AL, I think the 147 gr sub sonics are catching-on because of what Hunter found in his test. They penetrate better than the 124 gr full throttle loads. Consistent, barrier-neutral penetration is the new holy grail of terminal ballistics.

[Petrol & Powder]

Penetration has become the current holy grail of terminal ballistics but don't worry; a new holy grail will come along in a day or two........

Guns fads are like the weather in New England.....don't like the weather? Wait a minute, it will change.

I don't think much of the 147gr 9mm bullets and it's my belief that they were created for use in suppressed guns and should never have been pressed into service as a standard SD projectile. And yes, they do penetrate a lot. They are also very hard on the gun.
A good quality hollowpoint between 115-124grn driven to a decent velocity is were the 9mm shines.

[freebullet]

I've seen a few deer perforated through both sides with 9mm, their chest cavities were thicker than any man I've seen. Add the fact that its easy to attain accuracy at typical self defense ranges, has a high standard capacity, saves lead over larger calibers, and you can pick up the brass at most ranges in bulk for free, what's not to love?

[Gun_nut83]

9mm gets bad press for one big reason - gun guys love the .45 like car guys love the mustang. Its cool for many nostalgic reasons that don't really matter when it comes to performance.

I think Mik makes a great point. I am and may always be a fan of the 9mm for many reasons. For plinking it's one of the cheaper rounds to just grab a box off the shelf and go to the range. There are a WIDE verity of pistols chambered in 9mm all ranging in high to low quality, and cheap to extremely expensive prices, and some of the best CC pistols fall right in the middle of both categories. Also for a strong wrist individual even pushing a 147gn JHP recoil isn't SOO much that you lose target for SD shooting. Which incidentally is what I use as my carry round, a Winchester Ranger 147gn SXT 9mm.

Now with all that being said do I NEED that kind of round, no. Is there such a thing as "knock down power", no. What puts your opposition down is holes in the target and the proper placement of those said holes. Now there are going to be people who will say "the bigger the caliber the bigger the hole." That is true but just because I can carry a 500 doesn't make it practical, and a bigger caliber doesn't mean I'm going to hit my target. You have to carry what you're comfortable with and what your daily activities will permit. I'm twice as accurate with my Bersa .380 as I am with my G26, but I can take out a target just as easily with a Browning .22 pistol as most "gun guys" can with their big 'ol .45 they paid $1500 for. (End of rant....sorry)

With all that being said I was not surprised in the results of your testing. Now I've done some plinking with my rangers, but by no means any kind of standard comparison. Just some shiggle shooting down on the farm. All I can say is I know what I will be carrying. Hehehe

[Mik]

Penetration has become the current holy grail of terminal ballistics but don't worry; a new holy grail will come along in a day or two........

Guns fads are like the weather in New England.....don't like the weather? Wait a minute, it will change.

I don't think much of the 147gr 9mm bullets and it's my belief that they were created for use in suppressed guns and should never have been pressed into service as a standard SD projectile. And yes, they do penetrate a lot. They are also very hard on the gun.
A good quality hollowpoint between 115-124grn driven to a decent velocity is were the 9mm shines.

Everything goes in cycles, look at US military rifle cartridges. Trace from the beginning .45-70 to today. Projectiles got heavier, then heavier, then lighter and faster, then lighter and faster, then lighter and faster, then you got to the 55gr 5.56 and everyone said "oops, too light". Now you have cartridges vying to replace the 5.56 that all use heavier, slower projectiles. We are in the "heavier is better" part of the cycle. Interestingly, the 300 blackout and 6.8 spc, aren't really that much different from the first 30-30 loads.

[Petrol & Powder]

Everything goes in cycles, look at US military rifle cartridges. Trace from the beginning .45-70 to today. Projectiles got heavier, then heavier, then lighter and faster, then lighter and faster, then lighter and faster, then you got to the 55gr 5.56 and everyone said "oops, too light". Now you have cartridges vying to replace the 5.56 that all use heavier, slower projectiles. We are in the "heavier is better" part of the cycle. Interestingly, the 300 blackout and 6.8 spc, aren't really that much different from the first 30-30 loads.

Nothing is as constant as change!

[9.3X62AL]

This is my 5th attempt to comment over the past few days in this thread. We'll see if it "sticks".

My old shop has used the 147 sub-sonic loading for over 20 years now, and we haven't seen excessive wear or peening on our deputies' 9mm pistols (Glocks and SIG-Sauers, primarily). I likely ran 7500 of them through my P-226 and another 5000 through a P-228, and they strike me as being somewhat docile compared to European-level or M9-level loadings. I share your fondness for the 125 grainers at full-tilt intensities for best work from the 9mm.

FWIW, the 357 SIG can run the 147 grain JHP to about 1250 FPS from a 4" barrel--this contrasts with the 9mm's 950 FPS with the same bullet. "Boiler room" makes quite a difference.

[Hunter]

A lot of excellent points and insights in this thread. I appreciate all the supporting words and truly appreciate the wisdom. I have finished the CZ 75 B Omega review, the same pistol I used for this ballistic test and dang if i did not fall in love with that pistol. It is one of the most comfortable handguns I have ever shot.
I hated I loved a 9mm Luger so much but as i have seen it is not as bad of a round as i have been lead to believe.

[FergusonTO35]

I'm thinking the Lee 356-120-TC would be a nice defensive round at 1100 fps or so. The flat point will cause it to expand some, maybe to 1.5x caliber, but still penetrate well and not break up.

[9.3X62AL]

Ferguson--

The Lee 120-TC (conventional lube groove version) shoots WONDERFULLY in all of my 9mm pistols. Cast of 92/6/2 alloy and lubed with Alox/beeswax, I run hundreds of them in a row at 1200-1225 FPS through my pistols with zero leading. No larger critters hit with these loads, but jackrabbits get whacked DRT with any center-mass hit, and 75 yard hits are fairly frequent and always final. Based on their work on jacks, I would attempt their use on coyotes to that same distance. HTH.

[Love Life]

I just don't get why so many doo doo on the 9mm. The 9mm has been killing people for a LONG time. On top of that, holes kill stuff.

Yes, we can choose larger calibers but many liken getting shot with a 9mm to being stung by a bumble bee.

OP- Fantastic work and range report!!

[FergusonTO35]

Thanks 9.3. Lee really caught lightning in a bottle with the 356-120-TC. My mold drops 'em at a touch over .357 which is the perfect diameter, weighing a consistent 122 grains with my range lead alloy. I pan lube with 50/50 and load up. 1.055 OAL feeds and functions perfectly in every gun I've ever tried. 3.5 grains Bullseye is an easy shooting, accurate load with respectable punch- across my chrono it duplicates factory 124 grain FMJ, ~980 fps.
Come to think of it I need to pour some more this weekend!

[9.3X62AL]

Lee really caught lightning in a bottle with the 356-120-TC.

Lee has some EXCELLENT bullet designs in their mould line, and these truncated-cone autopistol designs are among their best. I have the 9mm, the 40/10mm, and the 45 ACP design on board. In all of these, I seat the bullet with .020" of front drive band exposed above the case mouth--set a decent taper crimp--and fire away. I emphasize here that all of my moulds are of conventional lube groove type--I have zero experience with tumble-lubing or the bullet designs made for same.

Love Life--most of what's "wrong" with the 9mm is what American ammomakers have historically done with the caliber, which has been to down-load it 25%-35% from its original European design specs. That might have made a little sense in early post-war times when the market was flooded by all sorts of oddball 9mm chamberings in surplus pistols that came home in various manners, but 1945 was a long time ago--and I think most people nowadays understand what is meant by the terms "9mm Luger" or "9 x 19". I say we should load the caliber to its full potential, and give it a chance to do its best work. I would very happily cart along my SIG P-226 or -228 if allowed to fill it with capable ammo. As things stand now, the 40 S&W, 45 ACP, and 357 Magnum will get that tasking.

[robertbank]

I will admit, I disliked the 9mm Luger before this test and mostly because of what you just said.
I will also admit I was a bit surprised of the results. Learn something everyday.

Hunter for as long as we have been friends I never thought I would see the day when you would praise the old 9MM. Glad you introduced yourself to the CZ line. I prefer the older version of the CZ 75 firing system but to each his own. Try their 75 Shadow line. My 85 Combat is set up for UDPA like their new Shadow line in the 75 Series. One of the most comfortable pistols I have ever shot.

Take Care and a very good report.

Take Care

Bob

[Hunter]

Hunter for as long as we have been friends I never thought I would see the day when you would praise the old 9MM. Glad you introduced yourself to the CZ line. I prefer the older version of the CZ 75 firing system but to each his own. Try their 75 Shadow line. My 85 Combat is set up for UDPA like their new Shadow line in the 75 Series. One of the most comfortable pistols I have ever shot.

Take Care and a very good report.

Take Care

Bob

I know Bob, right. I knew you would be proud. Despite of what many believe i can be open minded. I met some awesome guys at CZ this past SHOT and when they offered to send me a test pistol i graciously accepted. Turns out you were right all of those years, CZ makes a very fine pistol.
i am done with the review on the 75 B Omega and am just finishing up the photographs. I will post the review for you to take a look but suffice it to say. I have already paid for the test sample and am keeping it. I was also impressed with the 9mm Luger. I learned a great deal from these tests. Call me over the weekend if you have time.

[robertbank]

Will do, Saturday morning.

Bob

[buckwheatpaul]

Very interesting article....as a sidebar I was on the Officer Involved Shooting Team with a large P.D. for almost 10 years....the majority of the time we were limited to 9mm or .38 or .357. Roughly 98% of 2700 officers carried 9mm. We carried the 147 Ranger round and it never once failed to stop the aggressor.....while I am not a fan of th 147 gr. bullet in the 9mm ..... the round performed perfectly. Then we went to the TALON round....once again the round was 100% effective in stopping the aggressor....I still have a Belgium Hi-Power and still perfer a 1911....you cant go wrong with a 9mm with a good performing round.....IMHO

[9.3X62AL]

I absolutely adore my CZ-75B in 40 S&W. Accurate, sufficient heft to soak up 40 S&W recoil, but not so heavy as to pose a problem for carry, its 1-16" rifling twist rate makes it VERY lead-friendly, as well. Unfortunately, it was disallowed for carry when HR 218 came on board......the sort of results you get when reasoning is supplanted by regulation in over-reaction to Federal oversight.

[BruceB]

My divorce last November left me with absolutely ZERO in the line of 9mm handguns. I am slowly rectifying that; an S&W M39 ( late '70s) came home with me a few days ago, and a new Ruger LC9 has been worming its way into my affections for several months.

I like the 9mm, and have done so for decades. My chosen carry load is the Cor-Bon 115 HP, which I have chronographed from a 3.25" Firestar at 1270 fps... consistently. That should suffice, if I ever need it some dark night.

Question: Of the various models of CZ75-type guns, what would be the recommended model for a left-hander to buy today?

NVCurmudgeon just yesterday (in public, yet!) called me "a compulsive pistol buyer"....maybe I'm proving his point!?!?

[robertbank]

My divorce last November left me with absolutely ZERO in the line of 9mm handguns. I am slowly rectifying that; an S&W M39 ( late '70s) came home with me a few days ago, and a new Ruger LC9 has been worming its way into my affections for several months.

I like the 9mm, and have done so for decades. My chosen carry load is the Cor-Bon 115 HP, which I have chronographed from a 3.25" Firestar at 1270 fps... consistently. That should suffice, if I ever need it some dark night.

Question: Of the various models of CZ75-type guns, what would be the recommended model for a left-hander to buy today?

NVCurmudgeon just yesterday (in public, yet!) called me a"a compulsive pistol buyer"....maybe I'm proving his point!?!?

You might want to take a look at either the CZ 85 Combat - an excellent choice, or for more money any of the Shadow Line Guns or simply the SP-01 Shadow. The latter is the most successful and popular pistol in IPSC Production Class world wide. The 85 Comabt is fully ambidextrous while the Shadows have ambi safeties.

You won't be sorry buying any of them. They are extremely accurate guns.

Take Care

Bob

[FergusonTO35]

Standing high above every other 9mm is the Browning Hi-Power. I will own one someday!!

[BruceB]

Thanks for the CZ info. I'll keep my eyes open, but I don't think I'll be ordering one right away.

Fergie, I like the Browning too, but it ALWAYS bites the web of my hand... burr hammer or spur hammer, a very few rounds equals blood on the gun (and shirts, jeans etc.)

My first experience with the HP was in the Canadian Army in 1961. It bit, as mentioned. I liked it even so, and bought a commercial HP around 1964.... it bit, too.

For MY hand, it really needs an extended "beavertail"-type tang (and an ambidextrous safety). It's hard to shoot a gun that causes injury to the shooter....sorta detracts from the needed concentration.

The magazine safety, I can remove myself, as I have on a number of such pistols.

[BruceB]

Okay, okay.... I yam convinced

Having gone from "ZERO" 9mm pistols to two nice ones in a matter of a month or so, and maybe with a CZ in the offing, I have to get going with some 9mm casting. Cor-Bons for carry, sure.... but cast bullets for shooting.

All I have right now is the RCBS 9mm-124 mould, which IS a truncated cone design but in a 2-cavity mould. I've never used this mould, but NVCurmudgeon broke it in from "new" condition... it worked fine.

However, watching this thread has given me the "NEED" for a Lee 6-cavity 9mm TC mould... never having used a Lee 6, I'm curious...that's dangerous! Midway has the mould in stock, too, increasing the temptation to almost unbearable levels.

Am I easy, or what?

[robertbank]

Bruce the truncated cone design is an excellent design. 4.1 gr of 231 is more accurate than I can shoot under a Lyman 356402 boolit out of all my 9MM guns. I water quench mine out of the mold. Some do, some don't. I use a soft lube. I experience no leading. Buy yourself a CZ 85 Combat or the SP-01 Shadow with or without a rail and you will be golden. You know you are going to do it. Go ahead and let the Queen breath.:grin:

Bob

[BruceB]

[QUOTE=robertbank;2820903]Bruce the truncated cone design is an excellent design.QUOTE

>>>>> One of my first two special-order moulds was commissioned in the late '60s. It was a 4-cavity Lyman 356402"U".... that "U" (for "undersize") was a mistake, and I should have just gone with the normal mould. But, I was green as grass and I learned a lesson.

I wonder how the German designers of the 1890-1910 era got so many things so right? The 7x57 and 7.92x57 cartridges, the truncated cone pistol bullet, the spitzer rifle bullet, and many others.

I say this, because the ORIGINAL 9mm issue pistol bullet was a FMJ truncated cone.... in 1908!

QUOTE: 4.1 gr of 231 is more accurate than I can shoot under a Lyman 356402 QUOTE

>>>>> Bob.... have you tried finding 231 lately? I left some behind when I split the sheets with my ex back in January, but that's the last of it that I've seen. I agree, though... the stuff works fine in both 9mm and .45ACP.

QUOTEBuy yourself a CZ 85 Combat or the SP-01 Shadow with or without a rail and you will be golden. You know you are going to do it. Go ahead and let the Queen breath.:grin:QUOTE

>>>> I went so far as to check Gunsamerica for the CZ pistols the other night. I have a hunch that you're right, but then, I never did have much "won't"-power when it comes to guns.

In my case, it'll be letting ol' Ben Franklin out for a breath of air, rather than the Queen, but the net effect will be the same.... I'll be X dollars poorer, but happier (I hope!)

[robertbank]

[QUOTE=robertbank;2820903]Bruce the truncated cone design is an excellent design.QUOTE

>>>>> One of my first two special-order moulds was commissioned in the late '60s. It was a 4-cavity Lyman 356402"U".... that "U" (for "undersize") was a mistake, and I should have just gone with the normal mould. But, I was green as grass and I learned a lesson.

I wonder how the German designers of the 1890-1910 era got so many things so right? The 7x57 and 7.92x57 cartridges, the truncated cone pistol bullet, the spitzer rifle bullet, and many others.

I say this, because the ORIGINAL 9mm issue pistol bullet was a FMJ truncated cone.... in 1908!

QUOTE: 4.1 gr of 231 is more accurate than I can shoot under a Lyman 356402 QUOTE

>>>>> Bob.... have you tried finding 231 lately? I left some behind when I split the sheets with my ex back in January, but that's the last of it that I've seen. I agree, though... the stuff works fine in both 9mm and .45ACP.

QUOTEBuy yourself a CZ 85 Combat or the SP-01 Shadow with or without a rail and you will be golden. You know you are going to do it. Go ahead and let the Queen breath.:grin:QUOTE

>>>> I went so far as to check Gunsamerica for the CZ pistols the other night. I have a hunch that you're right, but then, I never did have much "won't"-power when it comes to guns.

In my case, it'll be letting ol' Ben Franklin out for a breath of air, rather than the Queen, but the net effect will be the same.... I'll be X dollars poorer, but happier (I hope!)

Bruce I have about 7.5lbs of 231 left as I scored 4lbs late last fall before the crunch hit up here. I doubt you could find 5lbs in total for sale across Canada right now. I bought 4lbs of PB I am using up in both 9MM and 38spl to practice with and saving the 231 for club matches when I use my 9MM. I have no idea when the powder situation will change. I also scored 2lbs of Universal that I will eventually use in my 39spl a cartridge that usually gets doses of Clays.

Oddly enough Russian primers still go for $28./K plus tax of course. Federal primers are non existent or when found over $5.00/100 as are Winchester. The Russian primers go under the name of "Dominion" up here with a bright Maple Leaf on the package. Cool for marketing I guess. They seem to work better than I thought they would...no complaints.

Good luck with your soon to be CZ. You won't be disappointed I am sure.

Take Care

Bob
ps PM me your email address and I will send you my reloading spreadsheet to look at. You may find it useful

[dougader]

I've always had a 9mm since about 1989. I think it's a great little round. But in a 1911, shooting for 357 ballistics, I went with 9x23 Winchester and have never regretted it. A wide body Para Ordnance frame with a Caspian slide and Nowlin barrel. Twenty rounds of 9x23 is a nice carry package.