jacobslagle018
06-02-2014, 09:51 PM
Casting for an AR-15 is a hit or miss topic. Some loaders have great success while others not so much. I am writing this guide based on what I have found and it works for me. You can search the forum like i did, but I only managed to get parts of what I needed to make this work. Hopefully here, any loaders interested in casting for their AR can make perfection happen. I know there are people that do this already, but if this helps one on the fence about it, I will be happy. This is again a guide and because my AR loved it, yours may not. Please remember to keep it safe when loading. The AR that fired these test rounds was a Sig M400 with a 1 in 7 twist. It has a 16" barrel. I also installed a Wolff RP spring in my AR. You may or may not need this. This is basically an M4 that wont full auto. On to the good stuff!
Things you will need...
your choice of .223 mold (I used a Lee Bator) -18.00 + shipping from midsouth
sizing die (I used a Lee .225) -17.00 shipped from ebay
Neck flaring die (again I went Lee and got a universal flaring die) 19.25 shipped from amazon
Gas checks
Wolff RP Spring (Optional)
CASTING- For the mold I wanted to stay cheap. Most people trying this may not want to spend a large sum of cash on a side project they may or may not want to get in to. Because of this I purchased a Lee Bator mold from Midsouth for about 18 dollars plus shipping. Now doing a search on this revealed problems with the mold, but the one I ordered and received in FEB 2014 was perfect. It claims to cast at 55 grains, but mine drops around 53.5 grains. This is offered in a two and six cavity mold. The downfall of this mold is that it is a limited run so once they sell out, it can be quite a wait for another one.
When casting, my mold likes to stay hot. I use a Lee pot at around 7 for the temp (Sorry I don't have a thermometer for precision). The lead that I use is COWW and water dropped for extra hardness. It is important to do this for the AR rounds. They need to be as hard as they can to take being pushed as fast as the .223 round goes. While casting these, it is VERY important to search for defects. The more uniform the bullets, the better the results will be at the range. You do not want a deformed bullet making you think your load is terrible. Once you have finished casting, simply separate out bullets with any sort of flaw. This will save you from possible problems down the road.
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k528/myfragis*****/20140602_1913161.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/myfragis*****/media/20140602_1913161.jpg.html)(Bullets that were cut for shape issues)
LUBE/CHECKS-Once you have your bullets cast, they will need lube. I chose to go with powder coating (PC) for mine. I do it with my pistol bullets and get great results so I am doing it with these. This is optional however. You can use other traditional lubes, but I have not tried them. If you are interested in using the PC method, follow the link here http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?184-Coatings-and-Alternatives for more information. Now PC does act like a jacket, but we still need a gas check. I order mine here from 338 RUM in the VENDOR SPONSOR section (lots of good stuff for sale there). I believe they came out to 18.33 shipped for 1000. Simply clip the check on the bottom of your bullet and run it through the a sizing die to crimp it on. A note to make if you do powder coat for lube, heating the coating to cure will cause you to lose the hardness of water dropping the bullets after casting. To counter this, I water drop again after the PC comes out of the oven. This returns some of the hardness to the bullets.
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k528/myfragis*****/20140602_1911151.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/myfragis*****/media/20140602_1911151.jpg.html)
(These have a coat of powder coat with the gas check installed. They leave a very thin copper color on the bands of the bullets. This has been no issue so far)
BRASS- Brass is a universal thing. The prep work is the same here as it would be for a jacketed round. I trim mine to 1.750 to 1.755. Once it has been trimmed and primed, BE SURE TO FLARE THE CASE. If you do not do this, the rounds will shave lead from the sides which will be a royal pain to deal with later. Once your cases are flared, you are ready to charge them. I tried to take a picture of a flared vs unflared, but you cant really see the difference in a picture. Just trust me when I say you need to do it.
CHARGING- This step is the one that aggravates most people to the ends of the Earth.[smilie=b: When casting for lead, it is a dance between finding a powder that will cycle the action and not cause the bullet to destroy itself in mid flight. There are a few out there that work, but I have only tried two of them. I have used H 4895 and IMR 4895. Reading around the forum will show that a normal starting point for those powders will be 17 or 18 grains. For my particular rifle with a 16" barrel and 1 in 7 twist, it took right at 20 grains to achieve reliable cycling. This is the part that takes time. Just dont get frustrated here. I had to load about 40 rounds that would not cycle the action with these powders before I got everything working right.
Once charged, you need to seat and crimp the bullets. The crimp is important to keep the bullets in place. I did not do this with some of the first rounds I made and the bullets would be pushed way too deep in the case when they hit the feed ramps. The bator round is a small round to begin with. These will look short once they are in the case. My OAL is 2.050 with these rounds. Below is a picture of some finished rounds beside one that hit the feed ramp and got pushed in the case.
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k528/myfragis*****/output.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/myfragis*****/media/output.jpg.html)
ACCURACY- This is where I still need a little work, but the results still leave me with usable ammo for range fun and plinking. I set up my targets up at 50 yards. It was about 85 out and 70% humidity. (Gotta love Tennessee). My barrel was also hot from the sun and earlier shooting. The first picture was with factory ammo that is 62 grains. There is one outside the group, but I am not the best shot:oops:. Overall though its not a bad group. The second target is what the lead rounds produced. That is much larger of a group, but that is a combination of me, weather, and weapon conditions. Each one of the squares is an inch on the target. The bottom target from left to right is just at 3". While that is not perfect, it will make for great target ammo. I am also 100% sure that as I work on this a little more, I can get the grouping tighter. I shoot steel at a local range, and can ring a 4" gong every time with these.
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k528/myfragis*****/20140602_1900231.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/myfragis*****/media/20140602_1900231.jpg.html)
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k528/myfragis*****/20140602_1900321.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/myfragis*****/media/20140602_1900321.jpg.html)
SAVINGS- This is a large part of why I wanted to cast for my AR. I will do a little math to show just what those numbers come out to. This may also be a factor when deciding if this is for you or not. Some shooters would rather not deal with figuring this out if they dont save that much and I dont bnlame them a bit for it! :razz:
I chose to do the savings if you make 350 rounds. I chose this number because that is how many cases you can charge with a pound of powder. 7000/20=350. This is assuming that you would use the same charge for a jacketed and lead round. DONT DO THIS, IT IS JUST FOR MATH PURPOSES!
JACKETED
1. If using 55 grain jacketed rounds, the cheapest I see them is around 10 cents each. For 350 bullets that is 35.00.
2. Primers in my area are around 4.00 per 100 right now. For 350 that comes out to around 14 bucks.
3. For a pound of H4895/IMR4895 it costs me just over 32.00 locally.
4. I pick up brass at the range, but you can add that to the cost if you have to purchase it.
All of that added up comes out to 81.00 per 350 rounds or 243.00 for just over 1000 rounds. So it would be fair to say it will coust around 24 cents per round using a jacketed bullet.
LEAD
Again I am going to keep it at 350 rounds
1. I have no local source for lead, but it is all over the S&S part of the forum. I last bought it for 1.15 per pound. A pound of lead will cast around 125 bator bullets. For 350 bullets we need 3 pounds of lead at 3.45.
2. Primers are the same.
3. Powder is the same
All of that added together is 49.45 for 350 rounds. So for just over 1000 rounds it would cost you 148.35 dollars. I think it is fair to say it would be about 15 cents per round.
So overall I save about 9 cents per shot. To some that is not enough to justify messing with lead which is completely fair. If you do go this route though, it should save you in the ballpark of 90+ dollars per 1000 rounds. That pays for all of the equipment needed to cast for the AR and still saves some cash.
SUMMARY- This was just a project that I wanted to try. I ended up getting it to work, and just wanted to pass the info along to those that may also want to try. It saves money, but it is not as accurate as jacketed rounds. If you want ammo to take friends and family shooting, this is about as good as it gets. I did not come up with all of this info on my own, I had help from all over the forum. I just wanted to bring as much of that info together as I could. I struggled in getting some answers, and I hope that everything is clear enough here. I will be glad to help with questions if they come up, and if I dont know the answer I will go looking for it. Again not all of this info is mine, I just tried to piece it together in one spot for people that may be interesting in casting for their AR. I hope this helps people to decide if it is or is not worth it. :drinks:
Things you will need...
your choice of .223 mold (I used a Lee Bator) -18.00 + shipping from midsouth
sizing die (I used a Lee .225) -17.00 shipped from ebay
Neck flaring die (again I went Lee and got a universal flaring die) 19.25 shipped from amazon
Gas checks
Wolff RP Spring (Optional)
CASTING- For the mold I wanted to stay cheap. Most people trying this may not want to spend a large sum of cash on a side project they may or may not want to get in to. Because of this I purchased a Lee Bator mold from Midsouth for about 18 dollars plus shipping. Now doing a search on this revealed problems with the mold, but the one I ordered and received in FEB 2014 was perfect. It claims to cast at 55 grains, but mine drops around 53.5 grains. This is offered in a two and six cavity mold. The downfall of this mold is that it is a limited run so once they sell out, it can be quite a wait for another one.
When casting, my mold likes to stay hot. I use a Lee pot at around 7 for the temp (Sorry I don't have a thermometer for precision). The lead that I use is COWW and water dropped for extra hardness. It is important to do this for the AR rounds. They need to be as hard as they can to take being pushed as fast as the .223 round goes. While casting these, it is VERY important to search for defects. The more uniform the bullets, the better the results will be at the range. You do not want a deformed bullet making you think your load is terrible. Once you have finished casting, simply separate out bullets with any sort of flaw. This will save you from possible problems down the road.
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k528/myfragis*****/20140602_1913161.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/myfragis*****/media/20140602_1913161.jpg.html)(Bullets that were cut for shape issues)
LUBE/CHECKS-Once you have your bullets cast, they will need lube. I chose to go with powder coating (PC) for mine. I do it with my pistol bullets and get great results so I am doing it with these. This is optional however. You can use other traditional lubes, but I have not tried them. If you are interested in using the PC method, follow the link here http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?184-Coatings-and-Alternatives for more information. Now PC does act like a jacket, but we still need a gas check. I order mine here from 338 RUM in the VENDOR SPONSOR section (lots of good stuff for sale there). I believe they came out to 18.33 shipped for 1000. Simply clip the check on the bottom of your bullet and run it through the a sizing die to crimp it on. A note to make if you do powder coat for lube, heating the coating to cure will cause you to lose the hardness of water dropping the bullets after casting. To counter this, I water drop again after the PC comes out of the oven. This returns some of the hardness to the bullets.
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k528/myfragis*****/20140602_1911151.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/myfragis*****/media/20140602_1911151.jpg.html)
(These have a coat of powder coat with the gas check installed. They leave a very thin copper color on the bands of the bullets. This has been no issue so far)
BRASS- Brass is a universal thing. The prep work is the same here as it would be for a jacketed round. I trim mine to 1.750 to 1.755. Once it has been trimmed and primed, BE SURE TO FLARE THE CASE. If you do not do this, the rounds will shave lead from the sides which will be a royal pain to deal with later. Once your cases are flared, you are ready to charge them. I tried to take a picture of a flared vs unflared, but you cant really see the difference in a picture. Just trust me when I say you need to do it.
CHARGING- This step is the one that aggravates most people to the ends of the Earth.[smilie=b: When casting for lead, it is a dance between finding a powder that will cycle the action and not cause the bullet to destroy itself in mid flight. There are a few out there that work, but I have only tried two of them. I have used H 4895 and IMR 4895. Reading around the forum will show that a normal starting point for those powders will be 17 or 18 grains. For my particular rifle with a 16" barrel and 1 in 7 twist, it took right at 20 grains to achieve reliable cycling. This is the part that takes time. Just dont get frustrated here. I had to load about 40 rounds that would not cycle the action with these powders before I got everything working right.
Once charged, you need to seat and crimp the bullets. The crimp is important to keep the bullets in place. I did not do this with some of the first rounds I made and the bullets would be pushed way too deep in the case when they hit the feed ramps. The bator round is a small round to begin with. These will look short once they are in the case. My OAL is 2.050 with these rounds. Below is a picture of some finished rounds beside one that hit the feed ramp and got pushed in the case.
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k528/myfragis*****/output.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/myfragis*****/media/output.jpg.html)
ACCURACY- This is where I still need a little work, but the results still leave me with usable ammo for range fun and plinking. I set up my targets up at 50 yards. It was about 85 out and 70% humidity. (Gotta love Tennessee). My barrel was also hot from the sun and earlier shooting. The first picture was with factory ammo that is 62 grains. There is one outside the group, but I am not the best shot:oops:. Overall though its not a bad group. The second target is what the lead rounds produced. That is much larger of a group, but that is a combination of me, weather, and weapon conditions. Each one of the squares is an inch on the target. The bottom target from left to right is just at 3". While that is not perfect, it will make for great target ammo. I am also 100% sure that as I work on this a little more, I can get the grouping tighter. I shoot steel at a local range, and can ring a 4" gong every time with these.
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k528/myfragis*****/20140602_1900231.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/myfragis*****/media/20140602_1900231.jpg.html)
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k528/myfragis*****/20140602_1900321.jpg (http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/myfragis*****/media/20140602_1900321.jpg.html)
SAVINGS- This is a large part of why I wanted to cast for my AR. I will do a little math to show just what those numbers come out to. This may also be a factor when deciding if this is for you or not. Some shooters would rather not deal with figuring this out if they dont save that much and I dont bnlame them a bit for it! :razz:
I chose to do the savings if you make 350 rounds. I chose this number because that is how many cases you can charge with a pound of powder. 7000/20=350. This is assuming that you would use the same charge for a jacketed and lead round. DONT DO THIS, IT IS JUST FOR MATH PURPOSES!
JACKETED
1. If using 55 grain jacketed rounds, the cheapest I see them is around 10 cents each. For 350 bullets that is 35.00.
2. Primers in my area are around 4.00 per 100 right now. For 350 that comes out to around 14 bucks.
3. For a pound of H4895/IMR4895 it costs me just over 32.00 locally.
4. I pick up brass at the range, but you can add that to the cost if you have to purchase it.
All of that added up comes out to 81.00 per 350 rounds or 243.00 for just over 1000 rounds. So it would be fair to say it will coust around 24 cents per round using a jacketed bullet.
LEAD
Again I am going to keep it at 350 rounds
1. I have no local source for lead, but it is all over the S&S part of the forum. I last bought it for 1.15 per pound. A pound of lead will cast around 125 bator bullets. For 350 bullets we need 3 pounds of lead at 3.45.
2. Primers are the same.
3. Powder is the same
All of that added together is 49.45 for 350 rounds. So for just over 1000 rounds it would cost you 148.35 dollars. I think it is fair to say it would be about 15 cents per round.
So overall I save about 9 cents per shot. To some that is not enough to justify messing with lead which is completely fair. If you do go this route though, it should save you in the ballpark of 90+ dollars per 1000 rounds. That pays for all of the equipment needed to cast for the AR and still saves some cash.
SUMMARY- This was just a project that I wanted to try. I ended up getting it to work, and just wanted to pass the info along to those that may also want to try. It saves money, but it is not as accurate as jacketed rounds. If you want ammo to take friends and family shooting, this is about as good as it gets. I did not come up with all of this info on my own, I had help from all over the forum. I just wanted to bring as much of that info together as I could. I struggled in getting some answers, and I hope that everything is clear enough here. I will be glad to help with questions if they come up, and if I dont know the answer I will go looking for it. Again not all of this info is mine, I just tried to piece it together in one spot for people that may be interesting in casting for their AR. I hope this helps people to decide if it is or is not worth it. :drinks: