Long Range Rifle Build

[nhrifle]

I'm not sure where I want to go with this, so I am looking for advice, suggestions, warnings, etc. from anyone familiar with the 338/06 cartridge. I have been wanting to build myself a long range target rifle for quite some time with the following requirements:

1 - Heavy, good BC bullets that will carry well and shoot accurately to 1000 yards and maybe more
2 - Brass is either readily available or easily formed from something common
3 - Long strings of prone firing will not leave me requiring followup rehab
4 - Cartridge will work in a standard long ('06 length) action
5 - Something other than the 30/06 (already have several)

The 338/06 seems to fit this bill for me. I can build this on a couple of different actions that are available, one being a US Eddystone Enfield which has been bubba'd at some point in its life. I can also get my hands on a 98 Mauser action. I was originally planning to use the Enfield since they were built brutally tough, but I am thinking that the Mauser action might be easier, specifically in threading the barrel as I have never cut square threads and do not have the bits to cut them.

Any thoughts?

[johnson1942]

use a 06 case and shoot a .40 cal bullet. use a 1/14 or 15 twist and it will be easy on you, dont try to make it a magnum. go faster than a 40/60 sharps but keep it under 2000 ft per sec. shoot a 380 to 400 grain bullet. maybe a smooth sided bullet and paperpatch. should shoot holes in holes and be fun to shoot. called a .40/06. poss. some posts on it before. i like a .40 can barrel that is only 4 thousands deep grooves. one has to have one cut that way because most .40 cal barrels are .410 deep. why, i dont know. easier to paperpatch a .408. now i want one also.

[nhrifle]

Interesting, I had never considered a .40 cal bore. Are dies available, or would I have to ream out an '06 die set?

[oldred]

Interesting indeed! Plus you would likely be the only one at the range with one. :mrgreen:

[nhrifle]

A quick search turned up info for the .400 Whelen. Is this the cartridge spoken of above?

I'm thinking I could turn my own projectiles from brass stock, as well as shoot cast and PP. This could be a neat project and certainly something I have never seen before.

[FrankG]

I have a .400 Brown Whelen on a Mauser 98 in the works now. Waiting on reamer from PTG as yet . C&H had dies in stock so I have them :) I bored the chamber of 8mm junk barrel out 15/32" for a touch over 2.5" to fire form annealed milsurp TW once fired cases straight walled .Annealed shoulder area again and reformed in 400 BW dies. The dies are matched with the 400 BW as cut with PTG reamer . Michael Petrov researched the original 400 Brown Whelen and theres a article online .

I had a .412x320 gr mold made up by Tom at Accurate Molds for my .400/.410 barrel.

Picked up a .405/.412 barrel from Bullshop that's to go on a '03 Springfield after I get Mauser running :)



Heres the article:

http://www.finegunmaking.com/page33/page51/page51.html

[dh2]

My first build on a 98 Mauser action was a .338-06 have had it now for 10 years I used the Adams and Bennett barrel to me this a very fine deer, elk and bear rifle I have put bullets through it from 200gr. up to the 250gr. btsp from serria, recoil to me it is very manageable if I need to push a bullet heaver than 250gr. I have a .375 H&H for that. but I do not believe that the .338-06 gives up any thing to the .338 Win. Mag. the 200 FPS loss on the .338-06 is still a very deadly hit on am animal up to 1000 lbs.
For my purpose I would not consider it a 1000 yard rifle. I get better brass life necking .35 Whellen down to .338 than I do stretching 30-06 up to .338

[MattOrgan]

NH- The .338/06 is a great cartridge. I'm on my second and it is probably my favorite hunting rifle, I've never considered it a long range cartridge. My view on 1,000+ yard shooting is that you need a long heavy bullet at the highest velocity you can get. I've shot a lot of .308 Winchester at 800 to 1,000 yards and know that it isn't a great long range cartridge unless everyone you are shooting against has to shoot one too. 1,000 yard + rifles start with the .300 Winchester Magnum for me. In a 10 to 12 pound heavy barreled rifle with a straight stock they are not punishing to shoot prone. My current rifle is a 27 in. Shilen barreled rifle on a Remington 700 action with an H-S Precision stock. If I were to build a new long range rifle I would go with the .338 Remington Ultra Mag, better ballistics than the .338 Lapua, relatively cheap brass too. I understand your reluctance to re-barrel an Enfield. My square thread experience was with an 03 Springfield and it was a tough go for me. If you can stand a single shot I had a 98 Mauser chambered in a .338 wildcat based on a necked down .378 Weatherby. It was amazingly accurate to 1500 yards. The .338 Remington UM does everything the wildcat could do. Now I'm wishing I hadn't read your post. I have a post 64 Model 70 action that is perfectly happy in a drawer that would make a dandy .338 Remington UM. All I would need is a barrel, stock, reamer, headspace gauges, dies, and brass. I'm better now, thanks. Let us know what you decide to do.

[johnson1942]

i used to talk on the phone about once a year to a gun smith from montana. every one probably knows him for his long distance rifles. he was very friendly and full of information. im sorry i dont remember his name but he passed away suddenly from a very aggressive sickness. he made a 1750 yard elk kill that was verified by electronic eqiuipment. he told me about a .40 cal proto type sniper rifle he built. he machined the bullets out of pure brass and used a .416 rigby case. it shot 16 ft. higher and tighter goups a 1700 yards than the .50 bmg. the reason i recommened the .40 06 is it would be easy on you and with a 1/14 or 15 twist and getting it going about 2200 ft per sec it could out shoot anything out their. may be even slower at 1800 ft per sec. you dont need speed, you just need the right spin and bullet shape. at the slower ft. per second you dont even need a boat tail. just a flat base and a short tapered nose. im sure some where on cast bullets recently i was reading about a .40/06 being built. also you could cast and size your own and poss you already paperpatch. if not the guys up on smokeless paperpatching could help you out. the .40/65 straight is a very good long distance cal already by i think a smokeless .40/06 could even be better. with a good long distance scope i bet you could shoot circles around any one else. ive often though, of course if i had the money that i would like to build one. i would use it at the alliance range on their 1000 yard target.

[DCM]

For use with boolits or bullets?
For FLGCs I would go 6.5-06 for boolits the 40 cal.

[FrankG]

FLGCs ??

[UBER7MM]

HNRifle,

If that 98 Mauser action you spoke of still has the barrel attached, you might consider a 8mm'06. It's the poor man's 338'06. Poor, meaning that the .338" jacketed projectiles seemed to be priced at a premium. An original military barrel won't give you the desired slow twist as described in earlier posts, however.

Just a thought,

[Bjornb]

FLGCs ??

Full Length Gas Checks

[littlejack]

I have an Egyptian Mauser (8mm), that I had chambered to 8mm-06 AI a few years ago. It is one of my favorite rifles. I don't
know what qualifies as a long range cartridge. I guess, if one can hit a certain sized object (target) repeatedly with said
rifle/cartridge, at a long distance, it would qualify.
It pushes a Hornaday 195 grain sp to 2800 fps. It shoots these at moa at 100 yards. Don't have a clue what it would do at
1000. Just sayin.
All the best in your search.
Regards
Jack

[MBTcustom]

OK, first of all, you should stick with the 1917 if you are serious about shooting 1000 yards. I have the lathe tool here and it's only a trip to the PO away if you decide to go that rout.
If you go Mauser, remember that not all Mausers are created equal. Be sure to use a good one.
The barrel is everything. Invest there, or keep saving. I'd rather hit the primer with a nail and a hammer on a Kreiger than screw a janky barrel on a Bernard action.
Think about fiberglass stocks.
Read the bedding tutorials by Ernie the gunsmith http://erniethegunsmith.com/catalog/c41_p1.html
That guy pretty much sums up my philosophy of stock bedding perfectly. He's well written with lots of pictures, and no superstitious bull to weed through. You don't have to use his tools, but you'd be nuts to blow off his science.

As for caliber choice, I really think that 300Winmag is the perfect thing for what you are trying to accomplish.
The way I look at it, I can only take so much abuse from a rifle before I start pulling my shots. For a given amount of recoil, I want the flattest trajectory I can get, with the heaviest projectiles.
For me, 300 Win Mag loaded with 168 SMK's was that perfect slice of awesome. I could make 70 aimed shots before I was beat, I was going 3150FPS, and the boat tail bullets flew beautifully and didn't drift much.

Your 338-06 is going to buck the wind real well, but you're either going to take a beating, or your bullets will be falling like rocks. 1000 yards is definitely your huckleberry with that cartridge, but you might want to build it heavy. It's still an excellent choice.

Another option that has been kicked around a little is the 30CXB we developed. Shorter than 06, longer than 308, it's been theorized that it might be sweet 1000 yard cartridge if run with jacketed. I wonder about that.

[Reverend Recoil]

What kind of 1000yd target game are you playing? The NRA high power rifle rules limits match rifle to 35 caliber. Palma rifle is limited to 308/7.62 NATO or 223/5.56 NATO.

http://compete.nra.org/official-nra-rule-books.aspx

[nhrifle]

Thanks for all the replies! Lots to digest here! Unless I get serious about competing long range, this will just be a shooter for me. So far, the majority of my competitions have been to 200 yards (NRA high power), and a couple out to 300. The gentleman who taught me to shoot on the 200 yard line spent twenty years as a USMC sniper instructor and regaled me with tales of shooting service rifles at a grand. What I gathered from him was that 1000 yards is a completely different experience than what I had been doing and one of the things simmering on my "must do" list is to learn to put lead on target at that distance.

I know it is blasphemy, but this will probably be a mostly jacketed bullet rifle, Hornady AMax and Sierra Match Kings. I hadn't considered the 300 Win Mag, but it does fit the bill -- not 30/06, not too punishing on the shooter, and common components.

Tim, I keep looking at that Enfield every weekend when I am at the shop, and it may still become my donor action. If I go that route, you may get a box in the mail with an action and a barrel, note attached saying,"Please thread this!" since I don't want to wreck your threading bit. What would be involved in opening up the bolt face to magnum dimensions? And have no fear, nothing less than Kreiger with double cryo treatment will grace my rifle.

Maybe I will just grind a bit and practice cutting the threads on scrap to learn how.

[Love Life]

Scope or iron sights? 1,000 yds is easy cheese (with a scope) if you know your drop and can read wind. If you plan on a 300 Magnum, look to the WSM. Look at the IBS results for solid performers....

[nhrifle]

I may put irons on it, but current plans are for glass. I have not yet learned to read wind or mirage, but that should add a little more fun to this adventure. What are the advantages of the WSM over the 300 Mag?

[Love Life]

Better powder column and short action ( just saw that you plan on using a long action).

Use your wind flags in conjunction with reading mirage. It's fun to see what the two are doing. Also, a level of some sort for your gun will help for those long shots.

[tomme boy]

If you are going to go a WSM, look into the 7mm version. It will flat out shoot any of the 300's Barrel life will be short on any of the WSM's so you need to factor that as well. The only WSM that is not a barrel burner is the 325 or 8mm version. The only problem with the 8mm is bullet choice. Not many.

I will second what Tim said on barrels. Don't get hung up on Kriegers. There are many cut rifled barrel makers out there now. Brux, Bartlein, Obermeyer, Rock Creek, I know there are others but these are some of the more common ones. Don't be afraid of the button barrels. My most accurate gun has a button barrel on it.

[nhrifle]

I have a Savage 10FP chambered in .308 that could provide the donor action, would need just a barrel swap and new bolt head. Single shot is fine so I will probably leave the mag alone. Any thoughts on this?

I am not concerned about cut rifling vs button rifling, both shoot well. I just know the quality that comes from Kreiger barrels.

[johnson1942]

kreiger barrels are cryo treated before he cuts them. they are the creme de le creme of barrels. my two douglas barrels are the best of the best also.

[akajun]

None of the calibers listed are good 1k calibers. Also, do yourself a favor and use something other than a surplus action.
If I was starting out, id buy a savage Palma or ftr rifle. You can always sell them for what you paid for them and you won't be able to outshoot them. If you absolutely want to build one, build something in the 6mm 6.5 mm range. I am building a 722 in a 40x prone stock in 6mm Remington for prone matches. Other calibers are 6xc, 243, 6.5 creedmoor.

[lefty o]

lots of cartridges will shoot very well at 1000yds. 6.5-284 is pretty darned good, 260rem, 7mm-08.

[FrankG]

30-338 held the long range game for a lot of years. Will run through a standard action too.

[akajun]

lots of cartridges will shoot very well at 1000yds. 6.5-284 is pretty darned good, 260rem, 7mm-08.

Yes but your best long range bullet selection is with .224, 6 mm, 6.5 mm and 30 cal. Stick with those bullet diameters because of the great long range selection of bullets .
Another thing to think about is recoil. 20 x3 rds of prone with a 300 win mag is going to affect your shooting. This and the higher bc of 6mm and 6.5 bullets is why those two diameters rule the roost in long range competition

[Love Life]

6mm bullets do well at distance. However; I watched a man lose 1st place at the 1000 yd match by 1X. He was shooting a bone stock savage in 308 using 175gr SMK on a set of Sinclair F-Class bipods. The gun he lost to was a F-Open gun (not enough shooters that day to justify shooting an F/TR and open match) chambered in 6mm Dasher sitting on $1200 front rest.

There is a lesson in there somewhere.

[tomme boy]

Love. You mean know your stick and the rest will all fall in place? :Fire:

[nhrifle]

More good thoughts, so I did some more reading. It's looking like the 6XC may be just what I am looking for. The bolt face of my Savage is sized for it, brass is easily formed from 22-250, designed for distance shooting, sounds good!

[Love Life]

I'd roll with a .243 over the 6XC. Feed it slow powders in a long tube for over 3100 FPS pushing a 105-108 gr bullet. Wen it burns out cut it back to 21 inches and feed it H4831SC for 2925 FPS with a Berger 105 Hybrid.

Or feed it IMR7828SSC from the outset and never worry about a powder shortage.

Brass grows on trees, cheap dies, factory ammo if you want it.

[dk17hmr]

...The only WSM that is not a barrel burner is the 325 or 8mm version....

I'm pushing 2000 rounds with my 300WSM.....several people have made their first 1 mile hit with this rifle and barrel.

1000 yards really isn't that far, a 30-06 will push a 208gr bullet to 2750fps with a longer barrel and Reloader 17...I'm just under 2900fps with my 300WSM load. I shoot a lot from 500 to 1760 yards, the WSM has only left me wanting more passed 2000 yards. That's where a 338 Edge or Kahn or 375 Cheytac would be fun to have....actually a guy I know in town sent me a text last week and wants help spotting with his 375 Cheytac this weekend well start at 2500 and try for 3000.

The 338-06 will work, not ideally but it would. If your taking suggestions look into a 280 Ackley Improved with 162gr or 180gr.

Spent as much on your scope as you are on your rifle.

[MBTcustom]

I'd roll with a .243 over the 6XC. Feed it slow powders in a long tube for over 3100 FPS pushing a 105-108 gr bullet. Wen it burns out cut it back to 21 inches and feed it H4831SC for 2925 FPS with a Berger 105 Hybrid.

Or feed it IMR7828SSC from the outset and never worry about a powder shortage.

Brass grows on trees, cheap dies, factory ammo if you want it.

That all sounds strangly familiar.......

I would just like to second what acajun said. If you really want to stab the 1K the Savage F is the cheapest of the custom actions and is built like an absolute tank.
I disagree with his assessment of larger calibers as there are some really nice pills to feed both the 30 and the 338 calibers (seriously, take a long measured look at the Swift Scirocco II. Berger VLD also gives me beautiful feelings) especially since it seems you are looking for a hunting gun and not a competition gun. Although, he is absolutely correct about recoil wearing you down (I've gone ten rounds with a 300 WinMag, and I'm here to tell ya, the next one I build will have a muzzle break! 70 shots with a 12Lb rifle is brutal)

[Love Life]

It just works.

[MaLar]

I've was shooting a 6.5mm-08 before the 260 Rem. What a sweet cal!
I have taken 14 deer with this have taken it Elk hunting with 140 grn Noslers.
Would not think twice of shooting Elk or bigger with it after seeing the penetration you get with this cal.
Never recovered a bullet from it on deer. I have recovered 06, 7 mag, and 270 bullets from deer.
I shot it at a medium range military match (800 yards?) and placed 3rd. Supper caliber.
There is a saying "Kicks like a 30-30 kills like an 06".
Have shot 120grn cast with it, shot well until it leaded up. Could be because the bullets where lubed long ago and the lube dried up. Other wise shoots just about any load well.

LaMar

[flounderman]

My preference would be in 6.5, and probably in .260 Remington. The 6.5 bullets deflect less in the wind and the 260 doesn't beat you to death. If you go with some odd ball chambering, you will pay dearly for special dies and be limited in your choice of bullets, not to mention the extra cost of larger caliber bullets. Also if you decide to sell it at a later point, it won't be something most people wouldn't be interested in. You can make 260s from 308s or 243s, dies are cheap, and it is just more economical and more pleasant to shoot.

[Porterhouse]

What about 22-6mm AI? I myself have been thinking about long range rifle for quite sometime and this is the one I would go with. Hornady's .224 80gr A-Max at 3,750fps or so, from what I learned. Yeah, barrel life would be short but the bullets are cheaper than bigger boys, won't burn as much powder, and won't recoil as much either(I think).

[akajun]

What about 22-6mm AI? I myself have been thinking about long range rifle for quite sometime and this is the one I would go with. Hornady's .224 80gr A-Max at 3,750fps or so, from what I learned. Yeah, barrel life would be short but the bullets are cheaper than bigger boys, won't burn as much powder, and won't recoil as much either(I think).

If your going to do that, get it with a 1-6.5 twist barrel 30" long and shoot either Berger or sierra 90gr. The .223 doesnt have enough velocity in my opinion to shoot the 90's well but a couple friends have chambered .223 mag, .223 ai, and a 22-250 and said that the 90's dont give up much to a 6mm in the wind. You can still shoot the 80's and 82's with that twist barrel.

[nhrifle]

I spent all night unloading and loading parts at the CNC last night, going over calibers in my head, weighing options. As I thought, the 6XC seemed less desirable for me, as did some of the larger calibers I mentioned above. As of right now (may change) I think 260 Rem will be the cartridge of choice.

This gun will be heavy, in the 16 to 18 pound range, set up for slow prone firing, so about the only thing it will kill are paper and steel targets. As far as recoil is concerned, I seem to be a bit number than most. The .338 Win Mag is pretty comfy to shoot, while the .460 Weatherby Mag is getting a bit excessive. One of the worst I have ever shot was a super light (I think it was around 6 or so pounds) 30/06 Remington 700. Nice gun, but it didn't have enough mass to dampen the recoil and just smacked me.

[Love Life]

Get a brake and be super comfortable. Don't forget your earpro!!

[lefty o]

ive built and shot a 260rem at longer distances, its a tad over 16#, and recoil is very mild, and i run my loads in that rifle a tad on the hot side. if you stick with book loads, its should be very tame.