Brand New Uberti 1873 .45 Colt lever gun...

[nehpd]

Ok...here goes.

Recently purchased the Uberti "Special Sporting" rifle in .45 COlt with the 24" barrel for my pop as a retirement gift. He does not and likely will not ever participate in any kind of cowboy action shooting. That was not what the rifle was purchased for. It is a beutiful rifle and it looks, feels, and just sounds like such a fine piece of hardware.

When I purchased it, I assumed that it would just shoot .45 Colt rounds with no problems. And in some cases, that is apparently true. But I keep reading more and more about the "toggle link" issue. Ok, I get it...it is not as strong. However, SURELY it can be loaded up and fired regularly with something more substantial than the B.S. Winchester "Cowboy loads". What a waste of a fine rifle just shooting those!

In a nutshell, I am wondering about a good, quality handload that is great for smacking the hell out of steel up to 200 yards, and hunting medium size white tail and hogs inside of 100 yards. I figure with a 24" barrel I should be able to get some serious velocity out of that round without TOO much pressure on the toggle link. Ideas? Tips? I wish I would have gotten the 92' so I could load up some barn-burners, but oh well. Hindsight is 20-20.

By the way, I have never hand loaded a round in my life, so talk to me like I am a dummy in regards to an awsome .45 Colt round for this weapon, as well as how to get the most out of this weapon for something besides sgooting gallery loads at pie plates 15 yards away. Thank You!!!

[Harry O]

I have a similar rifle in 38-40 and one in 44-40. I only use CAS loads in them. If you look at the size of the linkage (particularly the unsupported length of the pieces that make it up -- which makes them likely to buckle), it looks pretty scary with hot loads. I have a Winchester 92 and a Marlin 94 in other calibers and the linkage/lockup of them is a LOT stronger.

I have heard rumors about a .44 Magnum 1873 replica, but I have never seen one and I also don't know (if it actually exists) if it was beefed up. You might want to look at trading yours in for a heavier duty lever gun.

[Outpost75]

Standard pressure .45 Colt loads with 250 grain lead bullets and common powders used traditionally in that cartridge for over 100 years, such as Unique or Bullseye, will give about 1000-1100 fps in typical lever action rifles. Slower "magnum" pistol powders which might give higher velocity in strong, modern designs, do not give acceptable ballistic uniformity at pressures suitable for your 1873. A charge of 8 grains of Unique, or 6.5 grains of Bullseye approximate factory lead bullet loads, and you should not exceed that.

[Nobade]

Load it with black powder like it is supposed to be and it will not break your rifle and you will certainly not have B.S. power! Once you learn the tricks you won't want to go back to nitro powder for cartridges (and guns) designed to use black.

-Nobade

[TXGunNut]

Agreed, Nobade. SP just wouldn't be right in a gun like this, even if it is brand new.

[blackpowder man]

Another vote here for black powder. Some things just go together.

[nehpd]

I worry about black powder and corrosion, etc, as I anticipate this being a rifle that stays in the family for years to come...tips, ideas or suggestions? Also, in shooting cap and ball revolvers, I have always used pyrodex...is this an option for the 1873? Id like to see a 250ish grain semi-wadcutter coming out of 24" barrel at least 1400 fps...pipe dream?

[snaketail]

After 2 years of trying this-and-that load combo I finally settled on a good/accurate/reliable load for my .45 Colt. I use IMR4227 and 255gr LSWC boolits. They cycle well, have more punch that "cowboy loads", but are not going to stress the rifle. I worked up to 22 grains, but settled on 20gr as my go-to load. It will require a good cleaning after shooting - but don't they all. IMR4227 is billed as "Magnum" power, but you don't have to load it to mag pressures.
I don't have access to a crono, but I believe I'm getting close to 1250fps from a 20" barrel.
M

[lbaize3]

I have been running 7.5 grains of Universal Clays in my three 1873 Winchester reproductions, using 250 grain RF cast boolits. No toggle link problems. The load shoots well without problems and is accurate enough for me. Have no idea what it will do at 200 yards.

[Bullshop Junior]

I have no advise for loads as I shoot a 92 chambered for 454 casual and really hot rod it.

Id probably look for a moderate load with a 300gn bullet like the lee. That bullet loaded over normal colt pressure will hit plenty hard.

[Dan Cash]

8 grains of Unique and 230 to 255 grain bullet and surprise your self. 38 grains 2F black powder and 250 grian bullet and really surprise your self. Leave the substitute black powders alone. They are corrosive as battery acid and more difficult to clean than black powder.

[Pb2au]

I worry about black powder and corrosion, etc, as I anticipate this being a rifle that stays in the family for years to come...tips, ideas or suggestions? Also, in shooting cap and ball revolvers, I have always used pyrodex...is this an option for the 1873? Id like to see a 250ish grain semi-wadcutter coming out of 24" barrel at least 1400 fps...pipe dream?

Pyrodex is pretty harsh stuff. In my experience, it is far more corrosive than the real stuff. Listen well to those here that shoot it often in their rifles and handguns.
You should see little or no black powder fouling in the receiver, as the proper expansion of the cartridge case will seal it off. As for clean up of the barrel, it will be a simple notion.
The 45 colt was designed, built and tested with proper black powder in mind. When loaded with it, it will hit with authority.
That is not to say that smokeless is verboten mind you. Already listed here, and in numerous other threads in the forum is data that will agree with your 73 and keep it healthy for a long time.
Sounds like you got your dad a great present, I hope you and he get lots of enjoyment from it!

[.45colt]

Your '73 can be loaded hotter than many would advise,......BUT FIRST....You need to get started reloading and thoroughly learn the basic's using only published loads from a manual. You are No Dummy, everyone has to start some where. I'd say buy a Lyman Reloading Manual and read it about three times. Good Luck.

[Nobade]

There are gobs of books out there on loading with BP, and of course plenty of info here on this and other forums. It really is simple when you learn the basics, and once you learn how to clean everything. When I was starting I was scared too and thought it was a big deal. Now that I have a "few" years of shooting BP under my belt I don't think I want to go back to smokeless, at least in guns and cartridges designed for them. Nothing else will give you the performance at the low pressure levels that real BP will. Of course smokeless can exceed BP performance easily, but not at the level of pressure BP produces. Plus, cleanup is with water. Can't find a cheaper or safer gun cleaner than that! Remember, Ballistol is your friend.....

P.S. Lyman has a pretty good book on BP shooting in various types of guns. I was just looking at it at Sportsman's Warehouse. Sam Fadala is the editor and he knows his stuff.

-Nobade

[nehpd]

Wow, great information...I realy appreciate it, guys!

[nehpd]

Ok fellas...as far as B.P. goes, it seems as if it is a relatively forgiving powder. Im not sure on what the powder amount would weigh, but a FFF or even an FFFF loaded to be even with the top of the case with a 250-300 grain boolit shoved down on top to the proper case length sound like a good starting point? I know that is not scientific, but just so I have a general idea...

[Nobade]

Ok fellas...as far as B.P. goes, it seems as if it is a relatively forgiving powder. Im not sure on what the powder amount would weigh, but a FFF or even an FFFF loaded to be even with the top of the case with a 250-300 grain boolit shoved down on top to the proper case length sound like a good starting point? I know that is not scientific, but just so I have a general idea...

Use FFg or FFFg. FFFFg probably won't blow you up, but it will give way too much fouling and be not as good. Save it for priming flintlocks. Use a boolit with BP compatible lube. No hard commercial crayon stuff! Use enough powder to produce about 1/8" compression. Softer boolits are better, but wheelweight ones usually work fine. Use mild primers. Seat to proper depth for that rifle, crimp well, and let 'er rip. That's all there is to BP load data. You can use a card wad under the boolit if you like, might matter but probably won't. Clean your cases in soapy water after you're done or they'll get funky. Decap first.

With that long barrel, keep an eye on the muzzle end for fouling buildup. Don't let it happen, if it does the accuracy will go to pot and it's harder to clean. A few breaths down the muzzle can help, biglube type boolits help a lot, no big deal just keep an eye out. If you start getting wild shots it probably needs cleaning.

-Nobade

[bigted]

even tho he is a bit hard on the 45 Colt ... Venturino has a good book on "SHOOTING THE LEVER ACTION RIFLE OF THE OLD WEST". his favorite round in NOT the 45 Colt but the rest of his writing on the subject will run over into the Colt arena.

also his and Steve Garbie's book ..." THE SPG BLACKPOWDER PRIMER" is another exelent book to digest on the matter.

on regular reloading and casting i can recomend non other then the various Lyman books on cast boolit reloading as mentioned above.

[salvadore]

I worked with an Uberti sporting short rifle for years trying everything from pyrodex, (much cleaner than BP) to 2400, trailboss, titegroup etc. Commercial rfp from lazercast, swaged remingtons, cast 454190, etc., all around 255grs. Probably the most inaccurate shooter I have ever owned, but pretty. Bought a chiappa 92, also in 45 colt groups went from 5 to 6 inches at 50 yds to 2". That is without any work up of loads. I get 1350fps with 17.3 grs of 2400 250gr bullet and will probably get a gc mold and go to 18 grs hoping to top out above 1400fps. I hope you have better luck with your Uberti than I did, they are pretty.

[nehpd]

Yeah, I have seen some cases reported of poor accuracy then I have seen others reported with exceptional accuracy. Im certainly hoping for the latter. I bought this gun for the same reason a lot of guys pick a woman...as beutifull and sexy to the eye as anything could be, but a lack of proper research on history, background and ratings...equals a useless beauty to stare at and turn other's heads.

[Larry Gibson]

nephd

In a nutshell, I am wondering about a good, quality handload that is great for smacking the hell out of steel up to 200 yards, and hunting medium size white tail and hogs inside of 100 yards.

The "toggle link" system of the M73, especially the modern made Uberti ones will handle all normal 45 Colt loads quite well. The SAAMI MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) for the 45 Colt cartridge is 14,000 psi. The Modern made M73s are also chambered in cartridges with higher MAPs.

I use a load that duplicates the actual chronographed original 44-40 BP ballistics out of a rifle; a 200 gr cast bullet at 1150 – 1200 fps. I use a Lee 452-200-FN loaded over 7.3 gr of Bullseye. The bullets (COWWs + 2% tin) drop at .454 - .4545 so I size and lube at .454. I have measured the pressure of this load (Oehler M43 with a Contender test barrel) and the psi is right at the SAAMI MAP of 14,000 psi. That load ran right at 1200 fps out of a 24” M92 Rossi I had and runs 1150 fps out of my Uberti M73 with 20” barrel. It is very accurate and I shoot lots of smaller rocks out to 200 yards (longest range the rear sight adjusts to). I have also shot that load out of a test 24” Uberti Sporting rifling I used and it was an excellent load. I would not hesitate to hunt pigs or WTs out to 100 yards with this load in my Uberti M73. That load also runs 950 fps out of my SAA revolvers.

Larry Gibson

107508

Note; since posting I have been having a very informative PM conversation concerning original 44-40 ballistics. I am probably mistaken in the intentions of my BP load development as It probably was for load duplication of the 44 Henry cartridge and not the 44 WCF (44-40). Many years ago when I did that load development it was for a Army Staff Study on the LBH battle and whether or not the Indians "outgunned" with their limited number of 44 Henry and 44 WCF repeaters the cavalrymen who all had M1872 revolvers in 45 Colt and M1873 Springfield Carbines in 45-55. For the test we duplicated the arms and ammunition of each and then held representative shooting tests at the ranges encountered on the battle field. BTW; the cavalrymen were not "outgunned", they simply were not trained.

[nehpd]

Wow...thank you for the easy to understand response. Thank all of you for the info. I am excited to get the reloading rig up and running so I can start throwing some serious chinks of lead out and about!

[hightime]

107520 Many here know I had some trouble getting my 45 to hit a pie plate at 50 yards. I sent it back right away with no improvement. A year later , still whining, I sent a note to Uberti and they answered. They sent me a new gun and now I get the pie plate at 100 yards. I'm happy enough now. I'd like to cast my own bullets, but have found Rem 455 dia. 250 grain, swaged shoot the best. I like 8.2 gr. or Unique to push them. A great gun and load for under 100 yd. deer shots.

Owen

[doc1876]

The "73 was designed for a bottleneck cartridge. They were never made in .45 in the old days for a reason. I, however think you will not have any issues, the .44-40 is an easier feed cartridge, and a bit more powerful, so that being said, the .45 will perform well, and you will have no toggle link issues, unless you got bad parts. Tell dad to "go and shoot the heck out of it".

There are some companies that are producing new interior parts, ie. short stroke toggle link and aluminum elevators, so if you do break parts, you can upgrade easily!

[salvadore]

I thought they didn't chamber for the 45 Colt due to its original meager rim not because it wasn't a bottle neck cartridge. Have I been BSed?

[mikeym1a]

At first I was thinking '...rifle only loads...', then realized that was for the 44-40. This rifle was not originally made for the .45 Colt, as the rim was too narrow to work with the rifle's extractor. I do recall that there was a 'rifle only' load for the 44-40. Is there any way to compare the pistol and rifle loads for the 44-40 to the .45 Colt? Just curious. mikey

[Larry Gibson]

I thought they didn't chamber for the 45 Colt due to its original meager rim not because it wasn't a bottle neck cartridge. Have I been BSed?

Actually that the correct reason as salvadore states (no you were not "BS'd"). The original 45 Colt case had a much smaller diameter rim than cases have today, even smaller than the old balloon head cases. Also the original cases had a folded rim which was much weaker than later rims. Thus with the smaller and weaker extraction was not positive. It is only with modern cases that extraction is positive with the M73 and M92 lever actions. It was the bullet nose/ogive that gives positive feeding. Most competitive SASS CBA shooters use M73s shooting the 38 SPL. With correctly shaped bullets the 38 SPL and the 45 Colt feed slicker than snot through M73 Winchesters.

Larry Gibson

[doc1876]

actually, if you fire a .45 long enough in a lever gun, you will find "blowback" in the chamber, While it is not a real problem, it will increase issues on long firing times, and needs to be cleaned. Now as I say this, I will tell you this is what I have been told by some cowboy action shooters. They still use the .45 or the .38, as this is what they want to shoot, especially as they don't have to go out in the woods in real life extremes. And I have never met anyone who loves reloading the .44-40, they are a real pain. As far as the rims, I know that in the 1870s there were many issues with cartridge development, which is attributed to one of the reasons Custer's troops did not fare well at little Big Horn. Cartridges just plain stuck in the hot barrels, and the cases were ripped out by the extractors.
I have no information as to rifle ctgs vs pistol in the .44-40, I am pretty sure that due to economy, there was mainly one load, and maybe a 2nd choice for bullet weight.


The straight cases also do not feed as well as the bottlenecks, but that is really not the case here, this is just a father going to have a good time with his son out shooting a fine rifle. Load it up and shoot the devil out of it, she will hold up just fine.

[Airman Basic]

There were definitely rifle only loads in 44-40. Got some in my collection somewhere.

[Larry Gibson]

in the 1870s there were many issues with cartridge development, which is attributed to one of the reasons Custer's troops did not fare well at little Big Horn. Cartridges just plain stuck in the hot barrels, and the cases were ripped out by the extractors.

This myth has been thoroughly debunked. Actually it was debunked by CPT Michailis (SP?), the Ordnance Officer accompanying Terry on the campaign, who inspected the remaining 7th Cavalry M1873 Carbines and M1872 Colt revolvers on the battle field prior to leaving the LBH. Have to ask ourselves what a coincidence it was that the M1873 Carbines only jammed when the soldiers used them? How was it the Indians had the where with all to clear the jams of those very same carbines? Then those Indians with those same M1873 carbines fired thousands of rounds of the same captured 45-55 ammunition over the next couple days at the Reno/Benteen contingent of the 7th Cavalry w/o those same carbines with the same ammunition, how was that?

Yes there was some problems with some jamming late in the Reno/Benteen battle but the % was so small it was inconsequential to the outcome of the battle, with Custer's contingent or the Reno/Benteen contingent.

Larry Gibson

[doc1876]

Larry, I would be interested in reading that report

[salvadore]

My horribly inaccurate '73 copy almost chambered .45 Colts itself with the barrel lowered and was possibly the smoothest lever action. You should try one Doc and see if you have the same experience. I do believe the straight walled case gets dirtier than a 44/40.

To Larry's ordinance guy, there was a forensic/archeological study of the LBH some years ago (20?) that came to the same conclusion as the Captain's.

[doc1876]

I just know two things, My .44-40 Uberti Henry seems to function perfectly. and as far as the Custer thing I am reminded of the line in Liberty Valence "when the legend becomes fact, print the legend". This may well be why we see the sticking cartridge issue. My understanding is that the cases had too much copper in them and would stick/rip.