Shot coolant?

[lpel]

I have managed to borrow a Littleton shot maker from a friend who bought a used one. I have many lbs of WW 1 lbs ingots to be used.

I have no desire to use anything flammable as a coolant. Having a couple of dogs I do not want to use antifreeze. So I am considering a couple options. Water and fabric softnere. I have researched as many web sites as possible. But still have a few questions:

How deep does the fluid need to be?
Does it need to be warmed? Or is current, not cool air temp ok?
How big of a container do I need. Ie how much volume, 1, 2 or more gallons?
What else to I need to consider?

Ant advice is welcome. Thanks.

[longbow]

I can offer one bit of advice from many years ago when I cobbled together a simple shot dripper using anti-freeze for coolant... watch that you do not get vapour because anti-freeze (ethylene glycol) will ignite in vapour form! I know I was surprised!

I was happily dripping away and things were going pretty well but I guess the anti-freeze was getting a bit warm and a slight fog was forming. Well the fog got thicker and suddenly ignited. YIKES!

Good thing there wasn't more of it as it seems to make a pretty good fuel/air explosive.

I am sure if it did not form the fog there would have been no problem so if using anti-freeze, make sure there is enough volume or a heat exchanger to prevent vapourization.

I see you are smart enough to say you do not want to use anti-freeze. It is not just because of the dogs ~ it can do you harm as well.

Longbow

[Hamish]

http://floydpics.wordpress.com/the-gameking-shotmaker/

Non toxic antifreeze? I am also seeing liquid laundry soap proscribed.

[Rottweiler]

I have the same dog/anti-freeze issue.... I use liquid laundry detergent. 2 gallons of the cheap stuff from the dollar store.Works great straight from the jug. I have noticed that the jug isn't as full when I put it back as when I start. I guess there is a little evaporation going on while cooling the lead. Next time I might try topping off the jug with water.

Warned the wife that it was off limits for laundry use because of the possibility of lead contamination. She replied " I don't like the smell of that brand, It's all yours"

[Screwbolts]

Last winter I dropped over 200 pounds of shot threw an old 2 nozzle Shotmaster, I found the Sun laundry detergent was the best fluid to drop into. It can be economically purchased at Walley world or the dollar store in 2 Gallon jugs. I also used fabric softener successfully, but I liked the clear detergent to see what was happening in the can. Both are user safe with pets/drains/sewer

It was also discovered that both detergent and softener are both slightly caustic in my experience, just wash the cans and pan when done to remove it. Shot would turn black if left for a week in either detergent or softener. The black coloring is all I have to go on, making this statement about caustic

Ken

Edit: PS: If you add water to either detergent or softener, I found it to enhance the making of popcorn shot. I was successful in making #5 shot using one dripper and a PID in the ladle to control Temp, micro managing alloy level in ladle to adjust head pressure on nozzle. any water in the coolant would make Popcorn shot with larger sizes. I ended up making cans fro 3 pound coffee cans to drop the shot in.

[lpel]

Thanks for the help so far. Another question: I have heard that cleaning the soap off is rather difficult. That is hard to rinse off but fabric softner is not. Thoughts?

[flashhole]

Nothing to add but I want to follow this thread.

[lpel]

Just want you to know I tried straight water today and got nothing but pop corn. Thought water was too cool so tried again with warm water. Same result.

Next will be Fabric Softner. Wish I new how much drop distance I will need in the coolant ie how many inches deep of fabric softner. Don't want to buy 5 gallons just to try it out.

[Rottweiler]

Just a few inches of fabric softener would be enough. I would think the lead should be solid in the first inch or two.

The soap isn't hard top wash off the shot unless you have hard water, then it could take a while.

I dry the shot on an old blanket lying on the ground in the sun for a couple hours and tumble it with a little graphite. my shot tumbler is home built kinda looks like a mini cement mixer. I'll get pics on here if anyone is interested.

[flashhole]

I'm interested, please post the pics.

[lpel]

I would be intersted in pictures as well.

I have a 223 ammo tin that I will fill with fabric softner and give that a try. Going to take a few days off as I am getting discouraged with this process.

[Littleton Shot Maker]

I'v never tried several of the following but people tells me it works-

1. Crop oil- cheapest generic version worked best for them
2. atf- cheap- easy to find , hard to wash off- not one that we recommend - unless you know what you are doing- this is not for average shotmaker.
3. laundry soap (insert brand name..) - I tired it- don't like it, won't tell customers to use..
4. fabric softner ? I have no personal info
5. Diesel ?? why would you do that, and then washed it in gas?? then washed it in some detergent to remove the gas......on and on, never going to try this one
6. Fluids use by CAT bulldozer- in the bucket's pistons that raise - lower ! - that's all he said- "common" item. Never tried it- had 3-4 good reports so far.
7. Molases- I don't trust that guy one bit- sounded like hot air
8. DOT 3 brake fluid- makes dam fine shot but- BUT FUMES can ignite - several reports of this- we stopped telling folks to used it-
9. Green engine anti freeze FAIL --DO NOT USE
10. Kerosine--- FAIL ---DO not use
11. **Water. THIS is it's own thread- several reports from credible shooter say yes. BUT, TEMP- HARDNESS- mineral content play huge factors here. FOR us the shot turned to popcorn--- BUT some guys can make it using their tap water - temps where not told to me- they guard that stuff ? WATER must be "soft" hard water we have in Az was a fail-- the temp. of the water is key- even if you have the right coolant- it could still popcorn or flatten if it's too cool...'thicker' as it heats it thins out and the shot won't splat every time the hit the surface...

THESE are one I use now- have used- or have a long track record

#1! www.Oils.com : Advantage fr46 ! I will not use anything else- it's not cheap- they will ship smaller containers
2 METSAFE- I have found it - 50 gallons at a time, it was easy to find year ago- not now- very good stuff- very expensive -
3 Citgo makes fr210- we used it several times-
4.
5. generic- pink RV anti-freeze- non pre-mixed- works ok, is thicker when cool, needs to be pre warmed in some areas- depending when you run...

[too many things]

your best will come from hydraulic or trans fluid. If you let it drain over night, and wash with gas. it don't need graphite . and will work good just drying on old bath towels in sun. Your drop to fluid from lip is about 1/4 in. how deep depends on the about you want at time. 6in is fine to do a 10lb, but the more you do at run ,the larger the amount of fluid.
Any done in a water base will turn black.
Other thing is the fluid will last years. Soap, others wont . I am still using the same 5gal that I started with 10 yrs ago

[Rottweiler]

shot tumbler pics
106877106877106878106879106880

The barrel is an old propane cylinder. I welded in a couple baffles to give it a more tumbling action than just rolling the shot around.

the shafts are 3/4" cold roll with heater hose slid over them to give the barrel some traction. The hose does wear out and is easily replaced.

1"pulley on the motor and 4" on the shafts. I would like it to have a little slower rotation but this does work.

The motor I used is a 1725 rpm 3/4 horsepower motor WAY more motor than it needs but it I what I had on hand. 1/4 or 1/3 hp dryer motor would do just fine.

There is a bolt that the bottom of the barrel rides on I filed it smooth and put a dab of grease on it to keep it from squealing.

I run about 50 pounds of shot with a half of a .380ACP case of powdered graphite in it for about 45-60 minutes. Coats the shot beautifully. I bought a gallon jug of "seed lubricant" powdered graphite on fleabay. didn't realize I needed that little. A little goes a LONG way. Someday my grandkids might us up that jug

[sandman228]

I use cheap fabric softener from the dollar store and fill it as close to the shot maker as close as I can then gradually dip a little out as the bucket fills with shot . after shot is made I dump it in the large sized vegetable cans with very small holes drilled in the bottoms sit the cans in the sink and run water in them to rinse the fabric softener off then spread it out on an old towel to dry .after its dry I dump a few handfuls at a time in a plastic bucket and tumble it with powdered graphite .

[RP]

http://http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg31/Ricky1965/RELOADING/th_shotmakerdoubledrippers010.jpg (http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg31/Ricky1965/RELOADING/shotmakerdoubledrippers010.mp4)
This is the shotmaker I had I think that video was the double dripper. I was using transmission (used) fluid its free and worked better then all the other things I tried with the soap antifreeze and some of the others. I used around 5 plus gallons and had a over flow in the catch tank which drained into a bucket so I could reuse it. The catch basin is a old bar sink and I installed a valve at the drain that I could let shot out as it filled up or drain it all down. I would run it several hours at a time and when the temp on everything including the fluid got good and warm my shot was almost perfect no teardrops or flats, I later added a way to cool the tank. Remember to keep the level in the tank the same all the time for good shot.
I know you did not want to use oil but that's what I found to work the best good luck on what ever you try. Another thing I found is after you get it set up and making good shot do not move it or you will have to start back over again fine tuning it. Mine was all welded together so it would all move without another setup but even doing that would make it act up.
http://http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg31/Ricky1965/RELOADING/shotmaker2.jpg
This is a run after washing the shot in gas to remove the oil which I did in stages. A bucket with holes and screen in the bottom I dump the gas on it move to station two dump gas and so on for about 4 stations as the gas filled with oil I move it down the line. Draining the oil off the shot never worked for me it just acted like a sponge. I also had a cement mixer I used for graphite which I pick up at the farmers supply place (cheapest place ) and the cement mixer needs to be free of old cement or it will imbed in the shot. a barrel will also work just roll it around the yard it takes very little also.
http://http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg31/Ricky1965/RELOADING/shotmaker9.jpg

[Rottweiler]

second attempt at posting pictures107014

[flashhole]

Rotweiler - I get a message saying invalid attachment. No image.

[Rottweiler]

OK what am I doing wrong here?????
I hit the little "insert image" button just above where I am typing.

A little window pops up and I select the "from computer" tab.

Hit the "basic uploader" button

Find the file of the picture I want to post and hit the "upload files" button.

After a few seconds the posting you see above shows up

[RP]

I use photobucket so not sure who you are using to upload. I go to photobucket copy the Img code not direct link. Then come here click on the first icon right before the email one it will say link. Then paste there and hit enter or ok a space before any notes or comments is a good ideal also.

[fastfire]

I put the photo on my desktop then select it from there.

[Rottweiler]

107313107312107314107315

[flashhole]

That is totally cool.

[Jeff Michel]

Water soluble oil, you can get it at Enco or MSC. It mixes at 40:1 will last you a long time. Non-flammable/non-toxic.

[lpel]

Thought I would update you on my endeavours. Tried water again. A little better luck no popcorn but shot all had tails on it. Nothing nice.

So I tried Fabric Softner. Got the cheapest I could get at Canadian Tire. I tried it first using a 6 3/4 deep x 10 x 3 3/4 inch wide 9mm ammo tin. No luck lots of tails and out of round. Figured it was not deep enough to cool before hitting bottom. So then I tried a bigger ammo tin. 8 1/4 x 12 x 7. Holds 800 5.56 rounds. I put in almost 12 litres of softner. Drop to liquid was 3/4 inch. Much better success. Shot was much rounder. I do have some with short tails and others that look like rat poop. So not perfect but very useable IMO. Had to quit after about an hour as liquid was getting too hot.

I will try again soon. I do have a larger container that will hold about 5 gallons and may splurge and go that way once I am convinced this will work. I will also try to reduce drop distance.

Any pointers on why shot may not be totally round, how to get rid of short tails and rat poop?

Thanks again. I guess I am slowly making progress.

[Faret]

Tails are caused by a rounded edge ramp. It has to be a flat sharp drop off like the non sharpened edge of a knife. Not sure on the rat poop maybe dropping too fast and they are hitting each other on the ramp?

[lpel]

So today I was able to test out my shot on skeet. Cannot say I noticed any difference between the stuff I made and bought shot. It was very windy and I managed to shoot a 23 in skeet (my best round mind you). But misses were clearly operator error.

One more question. I understand some coat their shot in powdered graphite. Wondering if this is required and what is the purpose? So the shot does not jamb in drop tube? Is this correct? In the few boxes I loaded, this did not seem to be an issue.

[Littleton Shot Maker]

the graphite is to keep the lead from oxidizing (in the shell mostly) and then sticking together - there by changing the pressure and blowing up the gun- 'chunk of lead' not a smooth flow of lead shot.
It does help in the loading BUT not the real reason-
This problem is worse if dropped or cleaned with water or water soluble products----water/air/ lead = oxidation

[lpel]

OK thanks. Great information. So since I am using fabric softener and the rinsing with water, this is a step I should be doing? Does it need to be done ASAP? Or just before loading?

Once again sorry for all the questions. Newbie and want to make sure to do things the correct way.

[Sitsinhedges]

If you get a bucket with say 50lb of shot in it a teaspoon full of graphite chucked on the top it would be more than enough to do the job. I use a paint stirrer in an electric drill for a couple of minutes at a speed that keeps the shot in the bucket. A lot of the graphite will drop thru but all the shot pellet needs is one molecule of graphite to coat it and stop the air getting to the lead. It will improve the look of the shot as well as lubricating it too. No need to over do it.

[Littleton Shot Maker]

right away- clean/wash-- dry>>> graphite NOW- then store- or load AS A CO. owner it is a cya issue for sure BUT NOW that you have the info-

I have a handful of guys that don't coat it but shoot it the same day or very short period of time from the making to the shooting
They shoot at night a swear they can see the shot "fly out" under the right lights...?
COAT it be safe--- if you don't ask- down load out instructions- follow them- if it's not covered there- ask here- or go to ShotgunWorld.com they have 48 pages of stuff to read on just making shot...
email me direct if you want- PM me- I get on here about 1 time every week - maybe every two weeks-
call me- number listed on website...I am not the expert at making great- or perfect shot- but I have done it all the wrong ways possible- so I know how to fix most issues..... makes me the expert at making bad lead shot??

[gtgeorge]

the graphite is to keep the lead from oxidizing (in the shell mostly) and then sticking together - there by changing the pressure and blowing up the gun- 'chunk of lead' not a smooth flow of lead shot.
It does help in the loading BUT not the real reason-
This problem is worse if dropped or cleaned with water or water soluble products----water/air/ lead = oxidation
Really?? How would the shot stuck together raise pressure and why would that be different then being held together by a shot cup or even more puzzling a slug? Trying to understand how shot sticking together will blow a gun up so please explain.

BTW lots of valuable info I am hoping to use for making my own shot at some point as I had no idea it was so hard to get things set up and running smooth.

[Littleton Shot Maker]

imagine instead of 300 bbs you now have a wad of lead going done you modified - or super mod choked tubed....shot will flow down the barrel.....that chunk will not....this is SUPPER EXTREME scenario - worst of the worst cast extreme 1 in a million case... again EXTREME Worst case- remember I said CYA 1st---

I have to tell you this - "I" can't recommend anything else and not get myself into trouble later..

Less extreme- you get 20-50 chunks of lead flying out the barrel not the 300+ you where expecting--- so now the pattern is blown to say the least

I am not a ballistics expert- I made/ make bullets and shot- I am a projectile guy!

[gtgeorge]

Thanks Alan. I never thought about it having to flow through the choke. :oops: Glad I asked now and added to my thought process.

[lpel]

Once again great info. I have read that John Deere powdered graphite is reasonable and would work. I will give that a try.

[Littleton Shot Maker]

I used Deere stuff myself- cause they where 3 minutes away from old place ---check with Ben Franklin farm- for what I used to pay John D. I got 4X more from Ben F. IF you really need 5# that is

[lpel]

Just finished coating 140 lbs with graphite that I picked up at Tractor Supply (TSC). It is called Seed Slick. Should do the trick.

[flashhole]

What is better for making round shot, a long drop into the coolant or a short drop into the coolant?

[Sitsinhedges]

Within 1/4" at the very most.

[Littleton Shot Maker]

Please -- any one that needs instructions for shot maker can view- down load and print them from our site Littletonshotmaker.com---
Please go to Shotgun World .com if you have about 3 days to kill- there is tons- tons of good (and bad) info there....
It is nice to see all these folks helping each other out- 15 years ago there was NO INFO on the web for shot making at home.

[leadman]

I made several tons of shot with a Littleton a few years ago. I used All Free and Clear laundry detergent in a 9 gal. tank. Filled to within 1/4" of the lip on the Littleton. Lip needs to have a sharp edge and also use welding soapstone on the ramp after sanding the ramp surface with some 200 grit sandpaper. This grabs the lead and makes it roll and make round shot. Sanding marks need to go the long way down the ramp.
The level of the lead in the ladle (this is the pot) is very important also. Too much pressure from the lead makes too much lead flow thru the drippers and you get long tails on the shot.
Very important to have clean lead only put in the ladle. I used to other casting pots to supply the shot maker.
Shot can be graphited in a vibratory case cleaner if you do not put too much in at a time. I had a homemade 1/2hp tumbler that would do #60 at a time.
If you want to sort the shot by size this is how I did it. I bought 2 stainless steel colonders from ACE hardware and drilled the holes to the size of the shot I wanted. I drilled a 1/4" hole in the bottom center and then placed the colonder on the screw in the center of my Midway vibratory tumbler. Turn it on and put a small amount of shot in it. The shot smaller than the holes falls into the tumbler (no media in it), you can graphite it at the same time if you want.

[Littleton Shot Maker]

200 grit? ouch- we used 600-800 grit surfacing when machined but - some times the come out too smooth-- last batch- (looked like a mirror) machine shop thought the did a good job- they where so proud of them selves - I could not break it to him right there - (aargh, not so much)- each one has to be -'resanded' and edged by hand-- doing them right now. If it is too smooth shot will not roll- it will smear- like water on waxed car- down the ramp- I use and keep some black emery board handy all the time as I build these shot maker up- to surface - edge and "clean" ramp when needed.

Leadman- are you the gentleman with tire shop ?? I know a few of the local shot makers but only a few-

At one point we where trying to have built for us a "rolling- machine to sort and to graphite the shot" cylinder inside of cylinder with the right size holes- and small port on the back side that would evacuate the shot when it came around to the position and then "titled" back a little at a time to remove shot from the rear- it works on small scale BUT some guys want BIG BIG units that will take 200-400 pound at a time (crazy talk) it is better to sort small amounts - constantly over longer period instead of dumping en-mass- sometimes I think these ""big companies" see dollar signs but have no idea what it takes to get to that point.....

[skeettx]

http://www.littletonshotmaker.com/Littleton_Shotmaker_Instructions.pdf

[flashhole]

Thanks for the link.

[Sitsinhedges]

I use a product called Graphogen assembly paste to lube the ramp and it is by far the best of all that I've used. I see no value to polishing the ramp as whatever lube you do use, chalk or whatever it needs to be able to key onto the surface to some degree to actually stay on so the lead can roll over it. Tails are usually a result of a burr at the bottom of the ramp catching the lead as it leaves, easily solved with a bit of abrasive paper along the edge so the lead can leave cleanly in my experience.

[Littleton Shot Maker]

Please if you decide to write us or visit us---the address at the top of the Instructions is no longer our home- It is going up for sale next month- Have not been there for 6 years...my folks living there , moving out and selling it- getting out of Mesa - going south (Tucson)
Email and phone still current though
Thanks to every one- if we can help - please let us know how.

[lpel]

Where would one look for graphogen assembly paste?

thanks for all your input Alan. Spent the winter in Phoenix. Nice weather you have there.

[Sitsinhedges]

Where would one look for graphogen assembly paste?

thanks for all your input Alan. Spent the winter in Phoenix. Nice weather you have there.

Ebay or google it. It is quite expensive though. I just came across a free tube and gave it a try I was using Copper-ease before that which worked well but not quite as good. The reason I like Graphogen is that goes on to the cold ramp as a thick paste but once it gets hot it goes very thin and if any lead does start to hook up on the ramp later you can just apply a tiny amount behind the dripper with the tip of a pencil and it becomes liquid almost instantly like hot wax so runs down the ramp to create a freshly lubed pathway for the shot. This seems to cure any problems that are much harder to get over using chalk etc. Also good to put on the dripper threads prior to assembly to stop them seizing with hot lead so they can be removed easily. Maybe any graphite paste in a mineral oil base would work but I've only tried this.

[Littleton Shot Maker]

I am a giver--or try to be
Phoenix is OK- I still prefer Tucson- smaller- slower- less traffic ....but the jobs are here- the wife has great job and so...
but yes you can't beat the weather --if you golf there's tons of places to go (i don't) if you fish - that sucks around here--NOW if you want to shoot Coyotes---this is place to be- they walk right down my street some times at night- some times in the day too- I saw huge male right in front of my kids school one day- that made me really think --- yes they will snatch up a small kid!!
Canada--sounds nice right about now though- maybe BC- Victoria,
whistler mt. area -- or Calgary -- it's 110 today's high and low of 86 tonight---yep.

[Littleton Shot Maker]

Maybe any graphite paste in a mineral oil base would work but I've only tried this.

wow- just thinking about this late tonight and had a flash back- my dad made some bullet release type product a long time ago- before we found it pre-made /
it been 20 years so it had slipped my mind--
it was something like graphite powder mixed with anhydrous alcohol - that stuff would evaporate so we would add more alcohol every so often to keep it thin- but i use some thickened stuff one day (accident) and it acted a bit like what the Graphogen sounds like -- sorta (Can you get an MSDS sheet on it??) Not sure if it would run down the ramp the same way, it might be more like the spray on stuff folks have used . I'm not sure about the mineral oil based - don't think we ever tried that we tried lanolin with the graphite but- it's just been too long ago and just messing around to try to duplicate results of other products yet unknown to us at that time..

One customer tells me he got 4 hours run time with one application of the spray on graphite-- that is great...

I do like the tip about the threads and coating them- some folks have used hi-temp anti seize for exhaust manifold nuts and bolts....

[lpel]

What about just using the graphite powder on the ramp? Kinda just wipe it on prior to use and heating. Or would it all just come off. Just a thought.

still making my way for a second time through 48 pages on Shotgun World.

[Faret]

2 stroke oil has worked for me.

[mtgrs737]

I have tried fabric softener and found that it would rust anything it touched so I went back to the Sun liquid laundry soap straight from the bottle. I drop my shot into a military shell can that is 23" deep and get consistently round shot to .004" TIR. The water in the soap will evaporate out of the mix so keep it capped when not in use. To wash the soap off I have a five gallon bucket that has holes drill in the bottom and then I epoxy a piece of window screen over that. I use the hose to wash the soap off of about 30 pounds at a time. I then let is drain for a hour or so and pour it out in wally world sheet cake pans with a hand towel layed in them. Spread the shot out to about 3/8" deep and let is sit for 20 min. and the towels will absorb most of the water. I carefully pull the towels out and let the hot sun warmed concrete finish the drying. I don't get black shot using this method, but I also graphite my shot in a vibratory tumbler. I put in about 5 pounds of shot and add a pea sized amount of John Deere graphite and let it run for 30 to 60 minutes. Get a spare bowl for your tumbler if you ever want to tumble brass in it again as the graphite will stain it permanently. I size my shot using 12" square stainless steel wire cloth (screen wire) I got from industrial supply houses like MSC, Graingers, McMaster Carr etc. I built a picture frame out of 2 x 4"s to hold the screen and sieve over a storage tote. When buying screen material look for the screen with the right size opening and the largest size wire dia. as they will last longer due to stiffness. I have a half dozen sizes made up but will use the .090", .093" the most as I shoot trap and those two will size 8"s and 7 1/2 shot pretty well. I only make shot in the summer as it seems to work better in 70+ degree air temp and the concrete is nice and warm and dries the shot in an hour or less. Good luck!

[shootinfox2]

Spray on mold release works on the ramp. Make sure the catch tank is not touching the shotmaker. Heat transfer will heat the coolant real quick!!!! I use Sierra anti freeze. Straight from the bottle, not diluted. I use a water heater overflow pan as a catch basin and drain it into another jug. Helps cool the fluid for reuse. No pets or kids around, but if you clean up after casting/ dropping shot it should not be a problem..

[lpel]

Just to let you know I am now successfully making my own very decent shot. The clays tell me they can't tell the difference.

Thank you very much for all the input, guidance and general advice. Would not have happened without all the help.