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JohnH
09-10-2005, 11:19 PM
Not sure where to start.....

Read the thread on lapping, figured it was impossible to hurt a barrel that wouldn't shoot, so I fit a tight as Dicks hatband patch on my cleaning rod, coated it heavily with some Clover and proceeded to scrub my bore. (I figure scrubbing is more appropriate description than lapping) There was a tight spot a couple inches past the chamber, and pushing a dry patch through after firing a dirty load, I can still feel it, but not on a second pass. I could not see anything in or on the lands at that point prior to this.

Fired off 20 rounds of the RCBS 35-200 over 9 grians of 107 and got mediocre results. Loaded and fired 20 rounds of the Lee 359-158-RF over 7.2 grains of 107 with equally mediocre results. This is a load I have shot lots of, and it shoots on and off again with no rhyme or reason. I tried it because of familiarity. Decided I was going to give up on this barrel, but decided to give the Lee 180 group buy mold a try. I had been shooting a batch of these bullets that Leftoverdj had sent me. They are water dropped, obvioulsy harder than ACWW. I had not cast at all with the mold I got in the recent group buy, so I broke that out, Lee Mented it, cleaned it and cast with it. Man does that thing make a pile of bullets in a hurry

Loaded up these and 9 grains of 107, mediocre results. Decided to try a primer change....went from small pistol to small rifle, and have been rewarded with 7, 10 shot groups of 3/4" to 1" WOW!!! Big single holes are very rewarding :)

I don't know if my scrubbing did any good, but I don't find any sign at all of even faint lead lines I was seeing at the root of the land/groove.

The Lee 180 bullets I am firing at present were cast Thursday night. Still rather soft. I'm making copious notes of this as I plan on shooting this load and bullets every other day for the next two weeks to see how they shoot as they harden up.

I don't like that I have to use a gas check, but as I'm getting good results, I"m just gonna keep on with 'em for a while.

I stumbled onto increasing the powder charge with my 38-55. I got stuck on using around 7 grains of powder in an attempt to maximize my powder useage. Obviously not the best way to decide what a load should be. But as I was getting good results in the 38-55 by bumping up to 11.2 grains, I figured a heavier bullet and an increase would do the same thing for the 357. Hence I got the RCBS 35-200, and skipped using the Lee 180.

The 35-200, and the 2 grain increase did what I wanted, it made an obvious difference in how clean the powder burned, it just didn't shoot well. I had also tried using small rifle primers under the 35-200, but the mediocre groups went to really lousy groups. Not sure why the small rifle primer didn't help this bullet but did help the 180, but I'm not complaining.

I tried the 180 more as a final act of desperation than a thought out plan, as was the switch to the small rifle primer with it. I also tried 24 grains of WC846 with the 180, have done this in past. It shoots really well, but is dirty, even more so than the 107 in small charges, and is a pretty ineffecient use of the powder. Does better in a 30-30.

So I have a plan of action, now that I have a load that will shoot well enough that I can see what a change does.

First, I'm going to continue shooting this batch of bullets as it matures to see how they shoot as hardness increases.

It has been suggested that I may be using too hard an alloy at the pressures I'm shooting. I've got some 20:1 and am going to make some 50/50 lead/WW to try out as well. I just wonder if lead/tin alloys shoot differently than lead/antimony/tin. I've had this thought concerning hunting bullets, if a lead/tin alloy expands more readily and hold together better than WW even with tin added.

Anyway, I've a place to start from now. Just want to say thinks for listenin' to me whine about this rifle and all the help offered to make it better. It may never shoot any other load as well as it shoots this one, but this one is quite satisfying as it is.

Buckshot
09-11-2005, 03:12 AM
...........John, enjoyed reading your post very much. Interesting to note the accuracy gain in switching primers with the 180's and not seeing the same with the 200's. I have no clue either :D. Just shows you can switch something and get a different result. Maybe better, maybe worse.

Anyway I thought it was a great post about just continuing on, while trying different stuff. Wish I was that disciplined! I have a bad tendancy to say, "Screw this" and go mess with something else for awile. Like giving it a break will make it come around, HA!

.............Buckshot

David R
09-11-2005, 06:42 AM
Johnh,

I liked the post, but what rifle were you using?

I just bought one of buckshots hardness tester so I can see how water dropped boolits harden too.

David

Bass Ackward
09-11-2005, 09:28 AM
Not sure where to start......


John,

Atta boy! So glad to hear it!

BUT .... I have few comments. :grin:

<<I don't like that I have to use a gas check, but as I'm getting good results, I"m just gonna keep on with 'em for a while.>>

I have a word of advise now that you are an advanced Booliteer.

You obviously have a barrel that is not broken in yet. I had one that took 500 rounds of jacketed. And you are limited by your bore diameter to fire lap without needing new molds. If it were me, I would shoot some more jacketed until coppering was no longer a problem. Then life will get a lot easier with a lot more options.

Yep. GCs and cleaning rods. Never leave home without them. :grin:


<<I've got some 20:1 and am going to make some 50/50 lead/WW to try out as well. I just wonder if lead/tin alloys shoot differently than lead/antimony/tin. I've had this thought concerning hunting bullets, if a lead/tin alloy expands more readily and hold together better than WW even with tin added.>>

Two bullets of equal hardness will expand the same. In theory, if you don't need antimony to achieve the hardness you want, don't use antimony. Antimony doesn't bind well with lead and thus the need for the tin. And its abrasive to boot. Reality is that no animal is going to look at you and say, "Hey .... there was antimony in that one."

You are working with a case design at pressure levels that everything means something towards accuracy. Will your mix make the difference between 6" and 1/4"? No .... unless it stops leading! :grin:

JohnH
09-11-2005, 02:29 PM
David R, The rifle is an NEF 357 Maximum. It was origanilly a 357 Mag, but it had a loooooooooooooong throat, so I reamed to 357 Max to be able to seat to the lands. That was 2 1/2 years ago. I don't think I've ever been as happy as I was when I saw those groups, going to make some more of 'em today I hope. Many would probably consider the rifle to be a fence post, but when it's all ya got and all your spare change is invested it, walking away becomes less and less an option. Over the last 3 years I've killed 6 deer with the guns and had lots of good fun playing and learning with 'em. Not a bad return for the investment.

BA, I know for a fact that I've shot less than 250 rounds of jacketed through the gun, but at least 4000 rounds of cast has gone down the bore. I never even considered the idea that the barrel wasn't broken in. It cleaned readily and appeared smooth enough, no tale tale caught lint or anything from a patch, but then untill "lapping" it, I had never run a dry patch through the bore. Yet another lesson this rifle has taught, a really tight dry patch can speak volumes about bore condition.

Buckshot, read an article by Venturino a year or so ago. He was speaking about how he no longer told people what a good load for a rifle would be as he'd just seen too many times that what worked for him didn't work for others. He made a most interesting statement in that article...."Fella can spend a lifetime shooting different loads and not find the rifles best load."

Funny thing about these NEF's I've shot in the recent past; They easily shoot good with jacketed. Of 5 barrels, the 357, a 44 Mag, a 30-30, a 45-70 and a 38-55, only the 38-55 has shot cast easily. The 44 shot cast well, but it wasn't untill I slugged the bore and began using bullets that fit (Gee, wonder what's up with that??? :) ) that it shot easily. The 45-70 I stepped away from quickly, the recoil reminded me why I stopped using that chambering in the first place, second, it too was not an easy barrel to shoot cast, yet it had a 456 groove and a 451 bore! By the book, it should have been a very easy barrel of all to get to shoot well. Nothing doing. The 30-30 of course shot well till you stepped on it, then you got paper plate groups. (310 groove, 307 bore) The current owner of that barrel is quite happy with 1200 fps loads, and it pretty consistantly shoots 1 1/2" and less at a 100 yards for him. He is using 2400. I've been stuck on using surplus powder because of cost, and never even tried the first 2400 load. Go figure. I keep telling myself I'm gonna get some 820, but other things keep coming up. At present I've a lot to learn about harness and need a tester. We're working that one out so I guess the 820 will have to wait some more. I'm thinking on a pound of #9 just to try out and see if the 820 will even do anything for me.

The way I see it today, the only thing worse in life than being a guncrank is being an obsessed gun crank :)

David R
09-11-2005, 05:17 PM
John,

First, I am glad you are getting that to shoot. Second, I totally understand about keeping the rifle. Quite a few years ago a guy GAVE me a barreled action for a 1917 enfield. Another fellow gave me a couple of stocks. Guess what? One fit the barreled action. I have exactly NO $ in that gun and its the one I shoot the most. I have others, but it seems this one gets shot most for many reasons. When I first tried cast in it 7 or 8 years ago, I had to shoot at 50 yards to keep it on the paper. Not I am getting 8" @ 200 yards and I am not done yet. It does not lead, is cheap to shoot and just a whole bunch of fun.

David