44 blackhawk special accuracy and some leading

[duke76]

Hey Gents, as long as we are talking about 44 specials, I have a Ruger Blackhawk 4 5/8 barreled Lipseys 44 special, I love this gun and really enjoy shooting it but I think it should shoot a little better than it does, it is giving me some leading, past the forcing cone, I have a set of pin gauges so I checked my barrel for constriction and the pin would not drop all the way out, close, but no cigar, so I loaded up a few firelapping loads and shot 6 of them with brinnel 12 bullets covered in cloverleaf lapping compound and cleaned the gun and constriction was now gone, I used 2.5 grains of bullseye with 240 grain lead bullets, ok constriciton is now gone but still gave me some leading, so I checked my cylinders and they measure 431, well I thought maybe I should fire a few more lapping loads because 6 didnt really seem like very many so I fired 12 more, cleaned after each 6 shots, so firelapped a total of 18 shots and then did 100 strokes with a brush wrapped in a tee shirt embedded with cloverleaf lapping compound. The lead bullets I was shooting were 430.5 so I thought they would obturate enough but I was still getting some leading so I ordered some 432 diam bullets from Penn bullets to try, the ones I used were the 240 TC, I loaded up some with 6 grains of unique and shot 6 and then looked at my forcing cone and ahead, lots of lead, so I cleaned with the copper chore boy and brush and tried again, yep more leading, the barrel feels very smooth after it is cleaned, but the best I can do is 2 inch groups from 30 feet off of a rest and I keep seeing these pictures of groups that all the bullets are touching at 25 yards and it kinda bothers me, so my question is, what kind of accuracy can I expect and what more can I do to get this this to quit leading and shoot better, it has done this with 2 different kinds of lubes and brinnel 12 bullets and now brinnel 18 bullets, the load I am shooting is not hot at all (6 grains unique) so do barrels have to be broken in after firelapping to quit leading? I am out of ideas, Thanks in advance Todd

[DougGuy]

You ordered boolits bigger than the cylinder throats, so the cylinder throats are likely sizing the .432" boolits down. I shoot .432" in my .44 SBH but I have reamed and honed the throats to a light drag fit which is gotta be .4325" or .4327" thereabouts and they don't swage down now. No leading to speak of and very good groups. The perfect dimensions are cylinder throats .0005" over boolit diameter, boolit diameter .001 to .002" over groove diameter. If you want to shoot .432" boolits, I can help you with the cylinder throats if you want to send it.

It's good you were able to get the thread choke taken care of, if it's still not lapped out and you get the cylinder throats reamed to .4325" then the boolits you lap with can be larger and they will do a little more.

[Larry Gibson]

What "2 different kinds of lube"?

What were the alloys of 12 and 18 BHN?

Larry Gibson

[rintinglen]

I have a Standard Ruger Blackhawk 44 Special that is a dream come true. It is the first really accurate 44 special that I have ever owned. I would expect groups half the size you are reporting. 5.0 grains of Red Dot or 6.5 grains of Unique and a 429-421 sized .431 with Ben's Red lube and I've got it made in the shade. It shoots better than I can see to shoot it.

[Wally]

I have a S & W model 24. It has cylinder throats at .433". I find that I can use cast bullets sized to .430~.431" and it is quite accurate. The 429348 180 Lyman WC is superbly accurate in it. I also have a Ruger SBH and it is very accurate with any .44 Spl load that I use in it. I then clean the cylinder with a brush and Chore Boy spun on a drill; as gunk builds up shooting a .44 Spl in the .44 Mag cylinder chambers.

[duke76]

You ordered boolits bigger than the cylinder throats, so the cylinder throats are likely sizing the .432" boolits down. I shoot .432" in my .44 SBH but I have reamed and honed the throats to a light drag fit which is gotta be .4325" or .4327" thereabouts and they don't swage down now. No leading to speak of and very good groups. The perfect dimensions are cylinder throats .0005" over boolit diameter, boolit diameter .001 to .002" over groove diameter. If you want to shoot .432" boolits, I can help you with the cylinder throats if you want to send it.

It's good you were able to get the thread choke taken care of, if it's still not lapped out and you get the cylinder throats reamed to .4325" then the boolits you lap with can be larger and they will do a little more.
Doug, I ordered 432 bullets knowing they were a little big but figured I could always size them down a thousandth and I have 5 guns that shoot 44 cal bullets so this way I would be able to shoot them out of any of the guns just by sizing them to the gun, I figured the 432 wouldnt really be a problem and as long as it fit in the cylinder it should work great, better than 430 anyway

[duke76]

What "2 different kinds of lube"?

What were the alloys of 12 and 18 BHN?

Larry Gibson
The two different kinds of lube are, the blue lube that comes on bullets from Missouri bullet on the brinnell 12 bullets and the other lube is the red lube that comes on Penn Bullets bullets and I believe he said the bullets were a brinnel 18 or 20. These bullets were purchased from Missouri bullets and Penn bullets

[duke76]

I know some of you guys are thinking its probably just me, that I am a bad shot but I can shoot my 686 at the same distance and have most if not all the bullet holes touching so I dont believe that to be the issue, I think it just starts to lead and groups go to ****, the lead is very easily removed with just a couple strokes with the copper chore girl wrapped on a old brush and feels very smooth, I thought I read somewhere that after firelapping, the barrel had to be seasoned to work good like seasoning a cast iron pan before it will work good has anyone heard of that, I was also thinking about loading up some jacketed bullets and see how they do

[DougGuy]

Well, there's several things to look at ok.. But let's not look at multiple changes to find one solution. When you are in a search like this, you change one thing at a time and see what that change does, and if that doesn't address the issue you are looking at, then you try the next logical thing up the chain and you change one thing about that.

Lube.. Blue magma lube is hard. You can often dig fired boolits out of a foot and a half of dirt and rocks and sure enough, there is the lube, faithfully welded itself into the lube groove and there it remains. Does the red lube do that too? Is it hard? I suspect the lube and the alloy. Some here can shoot hard alloys and get no or little leading, but I am willing to bet the lube they use is key in that equation! Have you tried Felix lube or have you made up any of the other soft lube that other shooters here like to use? I would try the Felix first. I have hard cast boolits with the blue lube from Beartooth, but I'm not real keen on them. They shoot -okay- but nothing special. And I do get some leading but not a whole lot. I get a LOT LESS with Lyman #2 alloy and Felix lube, and 50/50 ww/pure lead alloys with soft lubes. I didn't find a lot of difference in the hard blue lube, and the red.

Lapping.. Let's see what and if that has done so far. Go to wally world and get a little bag of #8 egg sinkers. The ones with a hole in them. Beat one down into a barrel shape that is larger than the bore. I went to Lowe's and got some stainless #4 machine screws 1 1/2" long, and a couple of washers. I used the screw to put it through the hole in the sinker and drilled a hole in the end of a hardwood dowel, then superglued the screw into the end of the dowel, firmly attaching the egg sinker to the dowel. THEN, I beat it into the bore about an inch, clamped vise grips on the dowel, and used a hammer to tap on the vise grips to remove the rifled slug from the bore. I could then measure the bore, WITHOUT the slug having been driven all the way through the threaded section.

Now, you have a lead pin gage that you can mic, or better even still, see if it will slide into the front of all 6 cylinder throats, like this:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/44%20Magnum/1e067e33-3760-4368-961e-e7305cac71d2_zps75482635.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/44%20Magnum/1e067e33-3760-4368-961e-e7305cac71d2_zps75482635.jpg.html)

Once that is done, barrel shape another egg sinker and drive it all the way through the bore. Now you can mic it and see if it's any different than the one you used to slug the muzzle with, and you can push it into the cylinder throats and compare how well it fits against the first one. See how this works? You have used the egg sinkers like a pin gage and you can use them to "feel" your cylinder throats, which SHOULD be larger than either of the slugs. If they are, that tells you the cylinder is not presenting a sized down below groove diameter boolit to the barrel, because if it's smaller, and you use hard alloy, it will NOT obturate and seal in the bore, there is where a lot of your leading is coming from, right there. IF the slug that you measured just the muzzle with will go into the cylinder throats from the front, with a light drag fit, they are correct. If you can't push that slug into the cylinder, it's sizing the boolits down upon firing.

Try the slug you pushed all the way through in the muzzle. Does it fit loosely and will more or less fall down the bore if you let it? That's what the thread choke is doing to the boolits as they are fired. If it's tight in the muzzle, then you have lapped it enough so that the constriction is relieved. If it's loose in the muzzle, then it needs to be lapped more. Back to the cylinder throats.. IF you shoot lapping loads through an undersized cylinder throat, how can you expect them to do a reliable job in the bore if the throat sizes them down? The cylinder throats need to be corrected BEFORE you try and firelap the bore so it will not size down your lapping loads.

IMO, once you get the cylinder and the thread choke taken care of, the rest of it is just matching boolit diameter to be larger than the bore and smaller than the cylinder (as I referenced to in my first reply in this thread) and using a good lube, such as Felix or other soft lube. I will be willing to bet that much of your leading and accuracy problems will be cured. Just sayin..

[GSaltzman]

Duke76, Things I have learned from the people here are the proper alloy and using the right lube. Fit is another one but at the point I was at fit was there but I had to tweak my alloy and I made some Felix lube. Felix lube has worked very well for all of my handgun needs. I am lead free so to speak! I can tell you 357maximums 666 lube is also very good. Once that constriction is out I'm betting things should improve. My throats on my flattop 44 special are .431 and I'm using 50/50+tin and lube with Felix. I can tell you that shooting a double action revolver and a single action are not the same. It took me awhile to get back to shooting tight groups with my single actions after not shooting them for some time. Try to shoot as often as possible.

[duke76]

Guys, I already took care of the constriction, that was gone after the first 6 rounds of firelapping, you might be on to something with the lube as the two kinds are both fairly hard, they are both commercial bullets from missouri bullet and penn bullets so it will be difficult to try a diiferent lube as they are already lubed, maybe I could try tumbling a few with a light coating of Alox tumble lube and see if anything improves, as for some of the guys saying the 18 brinnel bullets are to hard to obturate, I would think being they are 432 diam they wouldnt have to obturate being they should definetly be large enough to seal, as I said before the cylinder is 431 and I think that should be fine, I own a reamer for 44 cal so I could cut the cylinders and get them another .001 larger but didnt think that would be necessary with 431 cylinder, I dont know if this helps anyones diagnosis but my pin gauge through the barrell is 416, and drops all the way through, 417 does not start or fit. Thanks for the help so far, Todd

[44man]

The gun should shoot .430" boolits just fine. Don't need any boolit to expand to throat size either.
Hard lubes just plain suck. Alox is not going to help. You can peel the hard junk out and stuff Felix lube in.
DO NOT FOOL WITH THE THROATS unless smaller then groove. Don't shoot over throat size boolits.
DougGuy has it right.

[Minerat]

The gun should shoot .430" boolits just fine. Don't need any boolit to expand to throat size either.
Hard lubes just plain suck. Alox is not going to help. You can peel the hard junk out and stuff Felix lube in.
DO NOT FOOL WITH THE THROATS unless smaller then groove. Don't shoot over throat size boolits.
DougGuy has it right.

I have re-lubed some of the commercial cast bullets by putting them on an old cookie sheet and used a heat gun to get the lube off. Then pan lubed using a softer lube like Felix lube or some that I made up that is a mix of beeswax & moly grease. Seems to work for getting most of the hard lube off.

[duke76]

I have some 50 percent alox and 50 percent beeswax lube, I have a bunch of this, would that be an alright lube to try, comparable to the felix or 666 lube?

[Shuz]

I have some 50 percent alox and 50 percent beeswax lube, I have a bunch of this, would that be an alright lube to try, comparable to the felix or 666 lube?
In a word--YES

[44man]

I have some 50 percent alox and 50 percent beeswax lube, I have a bunch of this, would that be an alright lube to try, comparable to the felix or 666 lube?
Sure, much better but nothing is as good as felix lube.