H&R 1871 35 Whelen Disappointment First Round = Broken Gun

[jonp]

I just bought an 1871 in 35 Whelen. I resized some 30-06 brass and loaded up a dummy 180gr jckt bullet to test the chambering. After cleaning the rifle I put the round in the chamber and the first problem was that the barrel would not snap closed and latch. The round would not seat fully and stuck out of the chamber about a rim's width. I pushed it in with my finger and it went in hard but went in. I tried a couple of times and it just would not close. Hmm...

I then tried to open it and the extractor would not remove the round. I snapped it open a few times and the extractor broke in half. The extractor appears to be made of some light, white metal. I removed the round with a tap of a cleaning rod from the muzzle end and measured the brass. It does come in fine according to my Lymans #49 and the fact I could chamber it with and easy push seems to suggest that it was fine.

So.......Any opinions on what is going on with this? BTW: I seated the bullet in the cannalure and put a very slight crimp on it so it was not too long. In fact the light tap of the rod drove the bullet into the case. However I did measure the bullet before putting it in and the neck appeared to be fine.

I tried resizing several other pieces of brass and chambering them without a bullet, ie empty brass. None would enter the chamber fully. I had to tap several in with a brass hammer and pop out with a cleaning rod.

Measurements of Brass followed by book:
OAL: 2.475 (2.494)
Base: .470 (4.698)
Base of Neck .384 (.388)

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Thats a bummer to hear it broke right away.
Send it to Illion NY repair facility attention Brian.
have it fixed, have them do a factory trigger job on it

[Ben]

jonp :

" I tried resizing several other pieces of brass and chambering them without a bullet, ie empty brass. None would enter the chamber fully. I had to tap several in with a brass hammer and pop out with a cleaning rod. "
______________________________

The above statement tells me that the case wasn't properly sized, if it had of been properly full length resized, you wouldn't have to be tapping on it with a brass hammer and cleaning rod to get it in or out of the chamber of your rifle.

The extractor system on these guns is relatively weak, I'm not surprised that it broke trying to get a case out that needed a tap with a brass hammer to remove.

I'd say that if the rifle would chamber a 35 Whelen factory round and not your reloads, it was in the sizing of the case .

I realize that your " numbers " you've displayed may match up well with Lyman data, but obviously they don't match up well with your individual chamber of your rifle ( which for right now seems to be to most impt. point of concern ) or the empty cases would fall in and out of the chamber without any hammering .

I'd be interested in seeing a 35 Whelen factory round dropped into the chamber. I'm betting it would fall in and out with ease. If so, you could go all over the factory round with your micrometer and find out very quickly where the problem is compared to cases that you are having to tap in and out with a brass hammer.
It won't take a detective to figure that one out.

By the way, if your empty full length sized cases don't fall freely into and out of the chamber when the action is closed , if you get your extractor replaced, you'll end up breaking another one fairly quickly. That extractor is meant to lift out a fired case out of the chamber that is offering little to no resistance to the extractor.

I dare say that the extractor on your rifle doesn't have 10 % of the strength of the extractor claw design of a 98 Mauser, it won't stand much strain without breaking again. ( I've seen 98 Mauser extractor claws tear a portion of the rim off a stuck case - and leave the fired case stuck in a Mauser barrel - without breaking the claw )

Your extractor on your H & R 1871 35 Whelen ( as I'm certain that you know now ) isn't even close to having this kind of strength.

Ben

[jonp]

Ben: this is my first attempt at resizing brass. I ran the 30-06 brass through a full length sizer a couple of times to make sure it was sized and i did measure the brass and they seem to be at or under the size in the reloading manual. To say the extractor is weak is an under statement. Ive had a couple of mausers and while i dont expect that kind of strength i also dont expect it to bust by opening the gun. I cant find any factory 35 whelen in stock or i would try that. Ill keep looking for it.
Im suspecting an extremely tight or under sized chamber. I tried a couple of brands of brass and none fit.

From what i read 35 whelen brass has the same dimensions as 30-06 brass. Am i incorrect in this and should buy 35 whelen factory brass? Kinda defeats what i wanted to do but i certainly can do that

[Tackleberry41]

I ran into an issue sizing 8mm brass. Full length die, but a bit tight closing the bolt. Factory ammo no issue. I measured several shell holders, they vary in thickness. I shaved a shell holder down, just a little, average thickness of ones I measured. They size fine now. The shoulder was forward just a little, but enough. Sounds like the problem you have. As said try a factory if it drops in then your sizing is slightly out of spec. They should go in without help and come out without help.

[jonp]

One thing i could try is fireforming one to see what happens. Light load of bulleseye, piece of tissue then cream of wheat and smear of wax to hold it in.

[Ben]

jonp

Quote - - -Ben: this is my first attempt at resizing brass.

When you're resizing a case, is the shell holder bearing hard against the underside of the F/L sizing die ? If you can see a hint of daylight between the shell holder and die when your press handle goes top dead center when you're sizing a case , you need to turn the die down more until that " hint of daylight " is gone .

What brand F/L sizing die are you using ?

What brand of shell holder.

Have you tried a different shell holder ?

If your current resizing die and shell holder won't allow a case to fall in and out of the chamber easily, your problem isn't about fire forming.

Your problem is about a sized case that will fall into and out of the chamber with ease.

Until you resolve that issue ( either with a different F/L resizing die, a different F/L sizing die setting, a different shell holder, a shell holder that has been " shaved " by a couple of thousandths., etc ) I don't think your problem is going to get any better.

Ben

[jonp]

Ben, thanks for the tips. I am adj the shellholder hard against the die + 1/2 turn. Both are Lee brand.

I should have said this is my first attempt at necking up brass not sizing it.

[mikeym1a]

I had this problem with a Lee 8mm FL sizing die. I couldn't get the brass to seat in the chamber. I ended up buying an RCBS (it was available) sizing set. So that could be your problem. Have you done a chamber cast, yet? mikey

[Ben]

Ben, thanks for the tips. I am adj the shellholder hard against the die + 1/2 turn. Both are Lee brand.


I should have said this is my first attempt at necking up brass not sizing it.


That should do the trick ? ?

Have you had time to chamber a
new " test case " that you've made
with the new die adjustments yet ?

Ben

[singleshot]

To the OP,

This is a very common problem with break open actions and some dies/loading techniques. On occasion, you may need to shave the bottom of the die to get the brass to size enough. Some dies are cut generously long and need to be trimmed to get the right amount of resizing. Once you dial in your reloading technique, you'll get great accuracy. Check out bellmtcs.com for tips on headspace and how to measure. This is very critical to accuracy AND functioning.

[jonp]

I have not done a chamber cast yet as this is new, unfired rifle. Until i get it figured out im not slugging or doing that. I have not tried resizing the rest of the brass yet. After the initial problem and breaking the extractor i checked to see how my die was set then left for work.

Shaving the btm of the die is interesting and thanks for the reading.

I think i will try resizing the brass while hunting for factory ammo. Then i will try factory 35 whelen brass, new shellholder and then new sizing die. This should be interesting.

Foolish me thought id just size the brass and load it up. Good thing i only primed 10 of them!

[swheeler]

Lube the inside of the neck really well, I'm guessing you are pulling the shoulder forward on extraction of the case over the expander.

[jonp]

Hmm..i lubed the outside with Hornady one shot and used a q-tip with sizing wax on the inside but not a lot. I can try it again with a little more

[nanuk]

I bought two 35's

had 3 different 270Win brands available, dropped them in to check for headspacing... looked good so popped a couple off
no problems

then I picked up some factory Remington..... one rifle, they'd all slide down no issues at all....

the other one, a couple would stick out about 1/4" or more. used those in the other rifle for sighting in.

I think the Handi's chambers are a bit rough, and need a bit of polish.

[country gent]

You can coat a case with ink ( black magic marker) and insert into chamber tight and remove with rod carefully. Thia will show where the tight spots are as the ink will be removed where it rubs. I suspect it is the shoulder not being back far enough but if fired cases it could be the case head swelled enough to be tight also. Sometimes the ink will show things that a never thought about. Like thick necks. shoulder angles that dont match, case bodies expander to larger than specs. As was stated above you may be pulling the shoulder forward a few thousandths with the expander ball. Go slow and look at every aspect of the case chamber relationship and youl find the issue.

[Ben]

Country gent offers VERY GOOD advice.

Ben

[jonp]

This morning I went over what I am doing after re-reading the comments here.

My Lymans #48 shows a length from the base to the top of the shoulder at 2.032
My measurement of the re-sized brass is 2.052. I measured several and it is fairly uniform from 2.052-2.054. This looks to be the problem or one of them anyways.
The shoulder is also long, more on the 30-06 measurement than a Whelen. Actually very long. Another problem I think.

Ben: "If your current resizing die and shell holder won't allow a case to fall in and out of the chamber easily, your problem isn't about fire forming." I was thinking that if I fireformed a case and it chambered fine then I could measure it against the resized brass and note the difference. This might tell me that the cases are not being resized properly.

[Ben]

This morning I went over what I am doing after re-reading the comments here.

My Lymans #48 shows a length from the base to the top of the shoulder at 2.032
My measurement of the re-sized brass is 2.052. I measured several and it is fairly uniform from 2.052-2.054. This looks to be the problem or one of them anyways.
The shoulder is also long, more on the 30-06 measurement than a Whelen. Actually very long. Another problem I think.

Ben: "If your current resizing die and shell holder won't allow a case to fall in and out of the chamber easily, your problem isn't about fire forming." I was thinking that if I fireformed a case and it chambered fine then I could measure it against the resized brass and note the difference. This might tell me that the cases are not being resized properly.

Yes, but at sometime in the immediate future if you keep this rifle, we still return to the point of if you're going to reload for the rifle, you've still got to get a set of dies and a shell holder that will produce a resized case that will fall into the chamber freely.

I'd think that there is someone on this forum ( I would except my Whelen is a 40 degree ackley improved , so that won't help you a bit ) that would send you a factory round or a couple of the resized Whelen cases that you could use to determine what fits and doesn't fit in your chamber.

Ben

[jonp]

Someone has already graciously offered me some Whelen Factory Brass to try. Today I found a box of Rem Core Lokt. Cost me $41 but both will tell me something. Depending on what happens with those and trying a little more with my current die I will most likely buy a Hornady or RCBS FLD and see if that helps.

After a thorough cleaning and re-adjusting of the die and sizing again with more lube and with a slower motion I got the brass to chamber freely up to the width of the rim. That is the rim sticks out. When I close the rifle it latches and fully enters the chamber. Since the extractor is broken I had to use a rod to remove the brass but it did come out much easier this time. The shoulder is also what it should look like not the lengthened 30-06 but a sharper one. Much improvement.

[singleshot]

Also, keep in mind, factories can do a HORRIBLE job of controlling headspace, especially in less popular calibers. This is little problem in a bolt-action, but presents big problems in a break-open. Factory ammo can actually make the problem seem worse as a result.

[Mike in TX]

I have a 270 Handi that does the same thing. The shoulder needed to be pushed back and with work on the die it now shoots fairly well.

[Ben]

Someone has already graciously offered me some Whelen Factory Brass to try. Today I found a box of Rem Core Lokt. Cost me $41 but both will tell me something. Depending on what happens with those and trying a little more with my current die I will most likely buy a Hornady or RCBS FLD and see if that helps.

After a thorough cleaning and re-adjusting of the die and sizing again with more lube and with a slower motion I got the brass to chamber freely up to the width of the rim. That is the rim sticks out. When I close the rifle it latches and fully enters the chamber. Since the extractor is broken I had to use a rod to remove the brass but it did come out much easier this time. The shoulder is also what it should look like not the lengthened 30-06 but a sharper one. Much improvement.

Sounds like you're making improvement.

I'm still wondering if this is about :

(1) Incorrect dimensioned reloading dies.
(2) Incorrect dimensioned shell holder.
(3) Incorrect dimensioned chamber in your rifle.
(3) A combination of all three.

??????????????

Ben

[Gtek]

Just a thought, the 35 is the same as a 30-06 dimension and angle just into shoulder. I would think a 30-06 round/case should slide in and fall out, have you tried this?

[jonp]

The Remington Core Lokt 200gr Factory I bought drop right in to the chamber. So...hmmm.....I would try a 30-06 case but I resized them all.

[jonp]

Well, I can force one in the chamber with a little shove but it doesn't drop in so I tried fireforming the brass. 12gr Bullseye, piece of toilet paper then cornmeal to the mouth and bagbalm to seal it in. Fired it and it is a little better but still is not dropping in. I can push it in with my finger though. Might be good enough. The base of the brass is larger than the factory round so this might be the problem. It's only .002 but that seems to be enough to keep it from fully entering the chamber.

Did the dimensions of Factory 35 Whelen change slightly anytime in the recent past? The brass I tried to reform is Remington also so I didn't mix two types of brass.

[Ben]

jonp

I've seen chambers that required an 06 case be sized in 2 steps :

1st with a small base 30-06 F/L die .

Then with a standard F/L 35 Whelen die to form the case into a standard 35 Whelen.

Some chambers won't tolerate that .002 extra ( that you've noticed on your own brass ) at the web of the case. Looks like your chamber is going to be one of the tight dimensioned ones at the web area of the case also !

My bet about a factory 35 Whelen round falling in and out of your chamber now looks like a safe bet.

Ben

[jonp]

Thanks for the tip Ben. I've read a bunch about sizing upwards even going in a couple of steps but that's the first time I've read to size it original then go up.

After reading up on this it would seem like my gun is one that needs a small base die first.

[Ben]

Thanks for the tip Ben. I've read a bunch about sizing upwards even going in a couple of steps but that's the first time I've read to size it original then go up.

Do you have a die suggestion?

Quote " After reading up on this it would seem like my gun is one that needs a small base die first. "

Yes, I'd say so at this point in time.

I have an RCBS Small Base F/L 30-06 sizing die. I bought it in 1972 and have used it regularly ever since. It isn't needed in all 30-06 rifles, but for some it is critical.

People say they are never needed for bolt action rifles, only semi autos.

I've not found that statement to be true. I have a friend with a brand new Tikka T-3 30-06 , sized cases with standard F/L 30-06 sizing dies of range pick up brass will not chamber in this rifle.

Use the RCBS 30-06 , F/L , Small Base sizing die on that same range fired brass and they behave like factory rounds chambering and ejecting smooth as silk.

Ben

[Green Lizzard]

i ran into this when forming 8mm from GI 30-06, i sized them all then removed the depriming rod and sized again with a feeler gauge between the case head and shell holder, all the firings after that were ok just needed it the first time

[Ben]

Yes, 1st time is all and with " sane loads " it isn't needed again.

Ben

[jonp]

I will order a rcbs small base 30-06. Run it through that first then the 35 Whelen. Now if H&R would just return my email about the broken extractor

[Ben]

I will order a rcbs small base 30-06. Run it through that first then the 35 Whelen. Now if H&R would just return my email about the broken extractor

Yes the SB 06' die will come in handy down the road on several projects.

I'm afraid you're right, you've still got to get that broken extractor replaced. May have to get on the phone, that is always quicker than an Email.

Ben

[jonp]

Got on the phone with H&R. Put one in the mail at no charge. No hassle or argument. This is pretty much the type of service I've come to expect from gun companies. Wish all industries were as consumer focused as the firearm industry

[Ben]

Got on the phone with H&R. Put one in the mail at no charge. No hassle or argument. This is pretty much the type of service I've come to expect from gun companies. Wish all industries were as consumer focused as the firearm industry

I don't think I've ever removed one ?
What is involved in replacing it ?

Ben

[Ben]

Quote - - " The base of the brass is larger than the factory round so this might be the problem."

I think you just found the problem..............

Ben

[jonp]

I think your right, Ben. I may have been too quick to head off in a different more involved direction. I had thought i had measured it but after reading comments and readjusting the dies i measured again and there it is. A little bigger than factory ammo but less than the book measurement. I just have z tight chamber i think. The small base die should do the trick.

Taking out the extractor is no more complicated than punching a few roll pins. I think just one but im going on greybeards to watch again.

[johnson1942]

my 45/70 h and r has a tighter chamber than my cpa long range 45/70. i just put a lot of case lube on the cases and resized them all the way into the die and now they work in the h and r. also i see you have some one sending you some factory 35 whelen brass. i have a few in the shop that are new and nickle plated in case you dont get the factory brass. i sure do like that cal of gun and hope you work the kinks out of yours soon.

[jonp]

I got the 35 Whelen factory brass yesterday, thanks Tom, and it slips right into chamber. I believe I do have an extremely tight chamber so I have ordered a set of small base dies as a first step.

Thanks for all of the comments and suggestions

[Jeff H]

I don't think I've ever removed one ?
What is involved in replacing it ?

Ben

Couple roll pins.

Whatever you do, pay attention to the orientation of the small flat spring that keeps the extractor claw up in the extractor cut in the case. It is shown in the H&R manual incorrectly oriented. As you pull out the extractor watch for the spring - take a picture of which end is which.

[nekshot]

Couple roll pins.

Whatever you do, pay attention to the orientation of the small flat spring that keeps the extractor claw up in the extractor cut in the case. It is shown in the H&R manual incorrectly oriented. As you pull out the extractor watch for the spring - take a picture of which end is which.

What Jeff is pointing out is to be taken serious, as I spent almost a day seaching for that spring the first time I took one apart!

[jonp]

Well, that was easy. Popped out 3 roll pins and the extractor and leaf spring pulled right out. Taking Jeff and nekshot's advice I was careful to set it on the bench exactly as it came out. Put the new spring on top of the extractor like the old one, slid it back in and replaced the roll pins. All told it took about 10 minutes with a small brass hammer and 2 different sized punches.

Works fine and now I am going to mount the scope and reload a few rounds to start out.

[35 shooter]

Glad you got it up and going. My brother has a 35 whelen h&r and really likes it. His shoots really well with jacketed or cast. I'll be watching for a range report on yours!

[brad925]

I had a similar problem in my 25-06. I had problems with getting the gun to open. Turned out when making the 25-06 brass out of 30-06 the neck thickness was too much causing a pressure problem.

[jonp]

I had a similar problem in my 25-06. I had problems with getting the gun to open. Turned out when making the 25-06 brass out of 30-06 the neck thickness was too much causing a pressure problem.
Since I am going the other way by expanding I don't think that will be a problem but I will pay attention to the rounds I load and measure twice. Thanks for the tip

[John Taylor]

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=35+Whelen+ammo