M1 junk parts?

[lancem]

This maybe should go in the wanted section but going back and forth with myself I decided to start this here, mods please move if not in the right place.

The story, I was given two M1 grand receivers and trigger groups that had been in a fire, and so are no longer serviceable. I would like to refinish and assemble these into wall pieces to give to the local American Legion for decoration. To complete these I need stocks, op rods, gas cylinders, barrel. All of these items can be unserviceable and will be made so when I weld the rifle together to prevent anyone in the future from trying to recover the receivers out of them.

So if anyone has some junk that was too good to throw away that will work let me know and we'll work out shipping ect. Thanks for looking.

[rondog]

An awesome project you're undertaking, good on ya! I'd bet if you asked on the CMP forum too you'd get lots of parts.

[lancem]

Thanks, I figure if I could just get one done that would be a plus, better than just turning them into paperweights. I didn't think of the CMP forum, I'll have to go over and join up.

[Fishman]

Just a thought. A neighbor had a winchester bolt gun go through a fire and he salvaged the receiver. A gunsmith re heat treated the receiver and he rebuilt it into a 22/250 and has used it for many years. I don't know if a Garand receiver can be reheat treated but it might be worth investigating.

[country gent]

If these are truly past being service able then if possible have or weld up the cut out in the reciever bridge for the firing pins tang. This makes it imposible for the action to fire a round no matter what. A few years ago some 06 parade rifles with bearrel tack welded in place were sold by cmp/dcm. Ive heard of alot of them being put back into service by cutting the welds and rebarreling. Weld the slot in the bridge and maybe even the hole in the bolt, by doing this any one will question the action bolts condition or integrity.

[lancem]

Just a thought. A neighbor had a winchester bolt gun go through a fire and he salvaged the receiver. A gunsmith re heat treated the receiver and he rebuilt it into a 22/250 and has used it for many years. I don't know if a Garand receiver can be reheat treated but it might be worth investigating.

I would love to be able to do that but have nowhere local to even start looking, perhaps when I get on the CMP forum that can be something I can ask as I would love to put them back into service if the cost didn't exceed their value.


If these are truly past being service able then if possible have or weld up the cut out in the reciever bridge for the firing pins tang. This makes it imposible for the action to fire a round no matter what. A few years ago some 06 parade rifles with bearrel tack welded in place were sold by cmp/dcm. Ive heard of alot of them being put back into service by cutting the welds and rebarreling. Weld the slot in the bridge and maybe even the hole in the bolt, by doing this any one will question the action bolts condition or integrity.

My plan was to before finishing MIG weld the bolt into place from the bottom side, weld up the clip guide channels and as much as possible make them unusable without major machining.

[Fishman]

I don't know if any of our resident gunsmiths do heat treating, but one you might check with would be Goodsteel. I know he would have an opinion on it at the very least.

[lancem]

Thanks Fishman, just sent him a PM. I have the better of the two receivers here in front of me by the computer, it keeps catching my eye and it seems such a shame to not at least try to make it work again.

[Fishman]

Please report back what you find. It would be great to get them operational again.

[lancem]

Well Goodsteel replied to my PM about heat treat and in a nutshell they are wall hangers. He's explanation was so detailed and full of info though that I'm going to include it here so that maybe if others have the same question they will find this expert answer. Thanks to Goodsteel!

Hey Lance, it breaks my heart to tell you this, but once metal has been heated to that point, it is metallurgically changed on a molecular level (damaged). I would be tempted, as you are, to put them back into service and only run light loads etc etc etc if I didn't know what I do about such things.
The fact of the matter is that if metal is not wrapped in SS foil, or heated in a very controlled environment for a set amount of time, there is a process called "decarburization" that takes place. What happens is that the carbon (that which gives the steel it's ability to have strength) is held in an uncaptured state long enough that it leaks out of the steel like water out of a sponge.
In the original hardening process, the steel is brought up to the austenitic temperature (that's where the carbon is uncaptured) and held there for a specific amount of time in an environment that keeps the carbon from leaching out, then the steel is shocked (quenched) which traps the carbon in suspension but it's under great pressure (this is why metal is brittle when heated and quenched). At this point, the action is too brittle to handle anything but the lightest shock that a 22LR could deliver, so a second heating is done at a much lower temperature (only about 600-800 degrees this time). This makes the metal softer, but renders it with great shock resistance!
Furthermore, the metal can be heated to that draw temperature as many times as you wish with no loss of strength whatsoever. In fact the grain structure becomes more and more refined.
However, if the metal is ever taken above this draw temperature, the temper of the metal is permanently ruined. If the metal is taken so high that the austenitic temperature is once again approached, and allowed to sit there in an uncontrolled environment (house fires) then the carbon begins to leach out of the steel, changing the basic makeup of the metal.
It is then absolutely impossible to heat treat it in the same way that it was originally done and produce results that are anywhere close to what was there before. The process must then be altered in order to produce a similar strength in the steel, but no one knows how much carbon was lost, so it becomes the heat treater's responsibility to "give it his best shot" cross his fingers and hope for the best.
This goes on pretty frequently with knifemakers and tool makers etc etc etc (had to do it myself when I ran the ovens at Bargo Engineering in Fayetteville Ar. for three years) but noone with a lick of sense would put their career or freedom on the line to see if a piece of metal will prevent a shooter from sending a rifle bolt through his face.
For this reason, I do not know of a single heat treater that would touch the project you have there.
I had a very good friend ask me about taking care of a 1911 that was in a fire last year. Because he was such a good friend, I spent a few hours on the phone with several specialty shops including Turnbull, and was told soundly to take a hike. As soon as I mentioned fire, the door was closed.

So, the best thing you could do if you are just bent on getting these things back into service, would be to buy the ovens, learn the craft, use one of the actions to learn by, and hope that the other one was made of the same steel and was treated exactly the same as the first one. I would not put that rifle to my face till I had fired about 10 En Bloc Clips full of factory ammo through it, pulling the trigger with a string.
Sorry I don't have better news for you, but that's the way it is.
You take care, and please be safe!

[M-Tecs]

Most Garands use 8620 steel for the receiver, however, the very first M1 Garands used nickel steel for the receiver. Due to the nickel shortage in July 1942 a switch was made to 8620 steel. 8620 is a low carbon steel that requires case hardening (carburizing) to increase the carbon content on the outer metal. This gives a very hard outer surface with a softer tougher center.

Both high carbon and case hardened steels can be repeatedly reheat treated with no ill effects. Most heat treaters don’t want to deal with firearm receivers since it requires an FFL transfer.

One possible source here: http://1919a4.com/showthread.php?44588-Re-heat-treating-receiver (http://1919a4.com/showthread.php?44588-Re-heat-treating-receiver) Same as you a house fire issue.

If that doesn’t work contact Smith Enterprises for a recommendation http://www.smithenterprise.com/ (http://www.smithenterprise.com/) I don’t know if they are still are reheat treating the Chinese’s M-14’s. The M14 type rifles are also 8620 and some of the imports had heat treat issues so they at one time offered this service.

Info on 8620 heat treatment
http://crucibleservice.com/eselector/prodbyapp/carbon/8620.html

http://www.wisetool.com/designation/case.htm

http://www.brighthubengineering.com/manufacturing-technology/30476-what-is-heat-treatment/

Good luck and keep us posted.

[M-Tecs]

One more thought. If the above contacts don't pan out do a google search on Mauser re-heat treatment. 98 Mauser are also case hardened ( carburizing) and I know campanies are still redoing them. Also color case hardeneing and case hardening are not the same thing so you want to stick with a heat treater and not a smith that does color case.

[M-Tecs]

Here you go http://www.industrialheattreat.com/AboutUs.html

Industrial Heat Treat is a full service heat treating facility specializing in performing the following processes:


Annealing / Normalizing Up to 10’ length 104” diameter
Stress Relieving Up to 10’ length 104” diameter
Solution Anneal Up to 6’ length 38” diameter
Solution Treat & Age Harden of Aluminum Alloys Up to 6’ length 46” diameter
Carburizing Up to 6’ length 38” diameter
Direct Hardening of Alloy Steels, Tool Steels, & Stainless Steels Up to 6’ length 38” diameter
Tempering Up to 6’ length 38” diameter
Furnace Brazing, Silver Alloy & Copper Bonding Up to 4’ length 20” diameter
Direct Hardening of Gun Actions, Knifes, & Blades

In conformance with MIL H6875, AMS H6088, AMS H6875A

[MtGun44]

IMO as a mechanical engineer, (BSME and MSME) you can reheat treat that receiver without any problems if it is
done by a heat treating expert.

Bill

[kywoodwrkr]

IMO as a mechanical engineer, (BSME and MSME) you can reheat treat that receiver without any problems if it is
done by a heat treating expert.

Bill
+1
My advice, get a hardness test done. Check with local vocational schools. I'm constantly testing items(we call them toaster parts) at school. Automotive machine shop might be able to give basic evaluation.
Bottom line is steel can be re-hardened.
Look up Time Temperature Transformation(iron-carbon phase diagram also) charts as they are very useful.
Google can be your friend here.

[lancem]

OK, on vacation visiting family and friends, one of which is a machinist who has a friend with a rockwell tester and he can do heat treating. So either Monday or Tuesday off we go to test the receivers and if needed do a heat treat. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that can save at least one if not both of the receivers and put them back into service. My thanks to M-Tecs for sending me the specs on the receiver heat treat and getting me on the path here. With both of the receivers being built after '42 and knowing they are built out of 8620 helped take a lot of the mystery out of the whole thing. I'll let you know what happens from here.

[Fishman]

That's really cool. Wishing you good luck.

[lancem]

Success! Went over today and picked up the receivers, both were done and tested to a Rockwell of 60. Brought them back to my buddies and bead blasted them clean and they are now ready to be built back into working rifles. I'm really happy the way this worked out and will post some pictures when they are finished.

[Fishman]

Congratulations! That should be a couple of fun projects.

[lancem]

Congratulations! That should be a couple of fun projects.

Sitting in a motel right now east of Memphis and can't wait to get home and get the park tanks fired up! Problem is I'm still 18 hours at least from home!! Yep gonna be fun!!

Best part of all is taking $25 worth of junk and turning it into $1000 worth of parts, if I would have know then what I know now I would have bought more when I had the chance!

[MtGun44]

Great news. How much did you have to pay, if you don't mind saying?

Bill

[lancem]

Being a friend of a friend, $40 for the pair. Hardly beer money for the time he put into it if you ask me. Needless to say I feel really lucky.

[MtGun44]

That is a wonderful deal. My bet is commercially it would be $100 or more for each, but that is
just a pure guess based on labor hours with specialized equipment, I don't really have a baseline
of prices to work from.

Bill

[zuke]

Success! Went over today and picked up the receivers, both were done and tested to a Rockwell of 60. Brought them back to my buddies and bead blasted them clean and they are now ready to be built back into working rifles. I'm really happy the way this worked out and will post some pictures when they are finished.

Pic's after the heat treat would have been nice, even pic's now.
Kinda like taking pic's of a pregnent girlfriend each week to see the work in progress.

[SlamFire1]

Hey Lance, it breaks my heart to tell you this, but once metal has been heated to that point, it is metallurgically changed on a molecular level (damaged). I would be tempted, as you are, to put them back into service and only run light loads etc etc etc if I didn't know what I do about such things.

The fact of the matter is that if metal is not wrapped in SS foil, or heated in a very controlled environment for a set amount of time, there is a process called "decarburization" that takes place. What happens is that the carbon (that which gives the steel it's ability to have strength) is held in an uncaptured state long enough that it leaks out of the steel like water out of a sponge.

In the original hardening process, the steel is brought up to the austenitic temperature (that's where the carbon is uncaptured) and held there for a specific amount of time in an environment that keeps the carbon from leaching out, then the steel is shocked (quenched) which traps the carbon in suspension but it's under great pressure (this is why metal is brittle when heated and quenched). At this point, the action is too brittle to handle anything but the lightest shock that a 22LR could deliver, so a second heating is done at a much lower temperature (only about 600-800 degrees this time). This makes the metal softer, but renders it with great shock resistance!

Furthermore, the metal can be heated to that draw temperature as many times as you wish with no loss of strength whatsoever. In fact the grain structure becomes more and more refined.

However, if the metal is ever taken above this draw temperature, the temper of the metal is permanently ruined. If the metal is taken so high that the austenitic temperature is once again approached, and allowed to sit there in an uncontrolled environment (house fires) then the carbon begins to leach out of the steel, changing the basic makeup of the metal.

It is then absolutely impossible to heat treat it in the same way that it was originally done and produce results that are anywhere close to what was there before. The process must then be altered in order to produce a similar strength in the steel, but no one knows how much carbon was lost, so it becomes the heat treater's responsibility to "give it his best shot" cross his fingers and hope for the best.
This goes on pretty frequently with knifemakers and tool makers etc etc etc (had to do it myself when I ran the ovens at Bargo Engineering in Fayetteville Ar. for three years) but noone with a lick of sense would put their career or freedom on the line to see if a piece of metal will prevent a shooter from sending a rifle bolt through his face.

For this reason, I do not know of a single heat treater that would touch the project you have there.

So, the best thing you could do if you are just bent on getting these things back into service, would be to buy the ovens, learn the craft, use one of the actions to learn by, and hope that the other one was made of the same steel and was treated exactly the same as the first one. I would not put that rifle to my face till I had fired about 10 En Bloc Clips full of factory ammo through it, pulling the trigger with a string.

Sorry I don't have better news for you, but that's the way it is.
You take care, and please be safe


This is an excellent discourse why single heat treat 03’s are so risky to fire. There are those irrational types who believe that low number Springfields only burst because of “bore obstructions” or “overloads”, but the fact of the matter is that the forge shop workers at SA and RIA did not have temperature gages. The Army did not supply them with instrumentation gages so they were judging forge temperatures by eye. The Army may have created a perverse incentive if they paying the forge workers piece rate. Heating the billets up would have made stamping quicker. But anyway, given that all low number 03’s were made in such an imprecise environment, no temperature controls other than eyeballs, and many were burnt in the forge room to soda cracker brittleness. This also explains why the Army was never able to “re heat” the things back to an acceptable condition and why the whole production is suspect.

[barnetmill]

I have access to a commercial Yugoslavian mauser(I think it was a mark ten) that went through a fire. Fire was hot enough to burn up the springs and IIRC the extractor. I wonder if the receiver of this type of gun can be reheat treated and a new or surplus 98 bolt substituted to get it going again with a low pressure round like a .300 Sav?

[lancem]

I have access to a commercial Yugoslavian mauser(I think it was a mark ten) that went through a fire. Fire was hot enough to burn up the springs and IIRC the extractor. I wonder if the receiver of this type of gun can be reheat treated and a new or surplus 98 bolt substituted to get it going again with a low pressure round like a .300 Sav?
Without knowing the specific steel the receiver was made from I would say you fall into not likely category. In my case I got lucky and there is documentation showing that the receivers were from 8620 steel and case hardened to a specific point, these gave my guy the info he needed to do the job. without that information you probably won't find anyone that will touch the job.

[M-Tecs]

I have access to a commercial Yugoslavian mauser(I think it was a mark ten) that went through a fire. Fire was hot enough to burn up the springs and IIRC the extractor. I wonder if the receiver of this type of gun can be reheat treated and a new or surplus 98 bolt substituted to get it going again with a low pressure round like a .300 Sav?

Some info here http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/reply/54013/Yugo-Mauser-steel-amp-heat-treat-table

Kuhnhausen book on 98's cover this if I remember correctly. My copy is loaned out currently so I can't check. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/661999/the-mauser-bolt-actions-m91-through-m98-a-shop-manual-book-by-jerry-kuhnhausen

The companies below heat treat 98's

http://satterleearms.com/gunsmithing.htm

Blanchard Metal Processing, Inc.
P.O. Box 26695
Salt Lake City, UT 84126-0695
Phone: 801-972-5590
Fax: 801-972-6346

Heinzelman Heat Treating LLC,
790 Washington Avenue
Carlstadt, NJ 07072
Phone: (201) 933-4800

[barnetmill]

Some info here http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/reply/54013/Yugo-Mauser-steel-amp-heat-treat-table

Kuhnhausen book on 98's cover this if I remember correctly. My copy is loaned out currently so I can't check. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/661999/the-mauser-bolt-actions-m91-through-m98-a-shop-manual-book-by-jerry-kuhnhausen

The companies below heat treat 98's

http://satterleearms.com/gunsmithing.htm

Blanchard Metal Processing, Inc.
P.O. Box 26695
Salt Lake City, UT 84126-0695
Phone: 801-972-5590
Fax: 801-972-6346

Heinzelman Heat Treating LLC,
790 Washington Avenue
Carlstadt, NJ 07072
Phone: (201) 933-4800

Thanks very much for the links and general information. I will first check with my gun smith about how the commercial mauser action compares to the military 98's and then go to those links. My gunsmith stated that anything that goes through a high temp fire is junk, but he is not a materials engineer. I have to find it since I considered it to be junk and just put it aside 20 yrs ago. Finding it is essential so that I have what ever information that is stamped on the gun. I was thinking years ago of maybe chambering it for a pistol cartridge of really low pressure, but if there is a possibility fixing the receiver I will for certain look into it. It can be one of the many semi-completed projects that I have going on.

[M-Tecs]

Most gunsmiths have limited metallurgical knowledge at best. The real question is how hot the receiver actually got.

http://haymansafe.com/pages/Fire_Ratings (http://haymansafe.com/pages/Fire_Ratings)
It should be noted that that average house fire almost never rises above 1200 °F. This is based on the hottest point in the house, which is toward the roof. A safe installed on ground level will most likely never experience temperatures that high. However, safes on a second or third floor might. In addition, the average length of a house fire is approximately 30 minutes, depending on the responsiveness of the local fire department. Of course, all of this is contingent on the size and build of the house. Multi-story homes will burn hotter and be more difficult to put out than a single story home.

http://www.wisetool.com/designation/annealing.htm (http://www.wisetool.com/designation/annealing.htm)
Overheated, Burnt and Underannealed Structures
When the steel is heated well above the upper critical temperature large austenite crystals form. Slow cooling gives rise to the Widmanstätten type of structure, with its characteristic lack of both ductility and resistance to shock. This is known as an overheated structure, and it can be refined by reheating the steel to just above the upper critical point.Surface decarburisation usually occurs during the overheating.

During the Second World War, aircraft engine makers were troubled with overheating (above 1250°C) (2282 F) in drop-stampings made from alloy steels. In the hardened and tempered condition the fractured surface shows dull facets. The minimum overheating temperature depends on the "purity" of the steel and is substantially lower in general for electric steel than for open-hearth steel. The overheated structure in these alloy steels occurs when they are cooled at an intermediate rate from the high temperature. At faster or slower rates the overheated structure may be eliminated. This, together with the fact that the overheating temperature is significantly raised in the presence of high contents of MnS and inclusions, suggests that this overheating is conected in some way with a diffusion and precipitation process, involving MnS. This type of overheating can occur in anatmosphere free from oxygen, thus emphasising the difference between overheating and burning.

As the steel approaches the solidus temperature, incipient fusion and oxidation take place at the grain boundaries. Such a steel is said to be burnt and it is characterised by the presence of brittle iron oxide films, which render the steel unfit for service, except as scrap for remelting.

If the receiver does not have scale it did not come close to any critical temperatures. Most of the 98’s are carbon steel like 1030, 1117 or 1120.

http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6531 (http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6531)
Annealing of AISI 1030 carbon steel is carried out at 871 to 982°C (1600 to 1800°F) and then slow cooled in the furnace. Stress relief annealing may be carried out at 538°C (1000°F).

AISI 1030 carbon steel is forged at 982 to 1260°C (1800 to 2300°F).


To damage 1030 beyond repair it would have to be well above 1800°F. At that temp you will see heavy scaling. No scale you are good to reheat treat.

Scale looks kind of like rust. (best pics I could find) http://metallinechemicals.com/products/default.aspx?id=222

[MBTcustom]

Just for the record, I am a gunsmith, and I also ran the heat treat ovens at one of the biggest machine shops in Arkansas for 3 years heat treating all manner of steels. Before that I was trained as a blacksmith and ran a coal forge for several years making knives and hardening them by eye.
I don't consider myself a certified expert, but I know more about it than most.
I stand by my PM to the OP.
I've had to appraise the level of damage to guns that went through fires, and the last one I did, there was a cabinet right next to the gunsafe and gunrack that had glass windows in it. All the glass was in a puddle on the floor beside the safe. I'm calling that 1200 degrees F.
Nobody likes to hear it, but fire damaged guns are not safe, and should be condemned.
I doubt the fact that you saved yourself $800 and enjoyed shooting a hundred rounds would be much comfort when you're shelling out hospital bills for maiming yourself.

I'm not trying to poo poo what you've done here, but please be careful. There is no reason to shoot that rifle the first time with it nestled against your face.
Pull the trigger with a string and look carefully for signs of damage.

[barnetmill]

Thanks to M-Tec for the additional information and goodsteel for the additional safety information.

[country gent]

Improperly hardend steel can take awhile to fail due to stress build up work hardening and other issues. To hard will be brittle and fatigue over time. To soft and it streches and wears quickly. Make sure the actions are still straight and true after heat treatment as some warpping may have occured.

[M-Tecs]

Your are very welcome. One more source for companies that do 98 Mausers http://www.pacmet.com/index.php?h=

Pacific Metallurgical, Inc
925 5th Avenue South
Kent, Washington 98032

(253) 854-4241

more info here:

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9411043/m/628102131/r/287103131#287103131

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9411043/m/77210714/r/79210714#79210714

I am not locating a what steel is used in commercial 98. Not the first time this has been asked. The heat treater should be able to provide this info.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_2/370204_Question_on_the_steel_in_miltary_vs__commer cial_Mauser_98_actions.html

[barnetmill]

Your are very welcome. One more source for companies that do 98 Mausers http://www.pacmet.com/index.php?h=

Pacific Metallurgical, Inc
925 5th Avenue South
Kent, Washington 98032

(253) 854-4241

more info here:

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9411043/m/628102131/r/287103131#287103131

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9411043/m/77210714/r/79210714#79210714

I am not locating a what steel is used in commercial 98. Not the first time this has been asked. The heat treater should be able to provide this info.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_2/370204_Question_on_the_steel_in_miltary_vs__commer cial_Mauser_98_actions.html


The may be more than one common manufacturer of commercial 98's of the last 30 yrs.. In the past I know the Yugoslavians made then when there was still a Tito and maybe the Serbs still do, and the FN people sold them and I presume made them recently if not still. I think the Yugos got some sort of input from FN when they started their manufacture many years of 98's. What I am suggesting is that different arsenals may have used different steel and these steels could also change over time.

[M-Tecs]

What I am suggesting is that different arsenals may have used different steel and these steels could also change over time.

Agreed. If your provide the manufacture and serial number to Blanchard or Pacific they may already have the specifics. If you do find a definitive answer please post your findings.

[barnetmill]

Agreed. If your provide the manufacture and serial number to Blanchard or Pacific they may already have the specifics. If you do find a definitive answer please post your findings.
I will remind myself to look into my vault tomorrow for that action. I have been suffering from badly sprained calf muscle and it is finally starting to improve and this is slowing me down a lot. I have not been shooting for about month. I hope be out doing some bullseye on thurdays and maybe have some answers if I find that action which I acquired about 20 years ago. A masonry contractor was undergoing a divorce and had a house fire (one likely he set), and my mason that also worked for him gave me that action.

[leadman]

There are still many Mauser 98 receivers around that are military but for the cost of one of these it might not pay to have your reheat treated. Guess when you find it and price it out you will know then.

[flounderman]

I had an Enfield reheat treated years ago and they said they would test it to see if it needed retreating, first. Somewhere someone told me if the springs had any life left in them the receiver shouldn't have been damaged from the heat.