Relearning PP loading

[mustanggt]

I've been away from my Sharps rifles for a couple of years now and have taken them back up again. At that time I was getting up to speed on PP a BACO 525gr money, 75gr 3F Swiss/or Kik, 30 over powder wad .125 cookie and another 30 under the boolit. I fell away for the love of another woman(gun) and finally just this weekend went back to my true love. (gawd what cornball ****) Anyway I wasn't impressed with my first efforts then and shot the remainder of those rounds. I had 14 left. My idea was to build a load that would just allow me to use the blow tube like I did with the greasers. Well that didn't work worth a damn. First shot 4" high next two touching in the bull and two more lower down the target. As I remember correctly that was typical for the loading and why I fell from grace. I've read a lot of you fellas doing various forms of wiping so I thought I'd try that and I started getting an actual group forming. Two damp patches brought that group way down from the pattern mess of before and then I just did one damp and it put the next five inside the group from the two damp patches. So now that I decided to finally heed the experience of my betters I'm happy to sully forth and not short circuit my learning curve running after loose women(guns).
The paper I am using is .0013" thick and brings my .446 BACO slick up to 451. I think maybe getting a .444 slick and patching with that paper will bring me up to .4492 will yield me better results. Is my thinking flawed or am I heading down the right track? I don't know why I ordered a .446 mould and not a .444 mould if I was trying for bore diameter not over. Well anyway I'm to restart my education again. Thanks fellas.

[Nobade]

No need to order a new mould, just get a push through sizer.

-Nobade

[LynC2]

No need to order a new mould, just get a push through sizer.

-Nobade

Agreed, it is working well for me doing it that way.

[mustanggt]

Would I then need to get a custom push through sizer from BACO or someone else?

[mikeym1a]

You slug before wrapping should be .001-.002 over bore size, and the same over groove size after wrapping. At least, that is what I gather from Paul Matthews book. So if your bore size is .444, then the .446 mold should be about right. Just to be certain, I asked Buckshot to make me sizing dies for my guns, so I could be certain. After a trip through one of is sizers, I have no doubts about it. I also size the patched slug, again following Mr. Matthews book. Now, if only I could get to the range.....................

[Don McDowell]

The only powder I've found that I could get away with blowtubing and keep any sort of decent accuracy with patched is Eynsford. Everything else is to prone to foul out on you.
Part of your problem might be the 75 grs of Swiss 3f, cut that down to 65 or so and groups may tighten up and the fouling get a bit more managable.
Wiping the exposed patch with a drop of jojoba oil will help extended shooting without wiping.

[Gunlaker]

If you want to shoot bore diameter and don't mind wiping then I prefer to have a snug fit in the bore. i.e. some resistance to pushing the bullet in, but not so much that you wrinkle the paper when you chamber the cartridge. I've shot good targets wrapped 0.001" under bore too, but prefer a tighter fit.

For blow tubing I can offer no advice as I don't shoot that way. If you want to do that then read through the older posts and find out what Don and Kurt have to say about it.

Chris.

[montana_charlie]

Deleted ...

I read your numbers incorrectly, and gave you screwy advice.
Sorry ...
CM

[Nobade]

Would I then need to get a custom push through sizer from BACO or someone else?

Send a PM to Buckshot here on this forum. He makes nice ones for a reasonable price.

-Nobade

[mustanggt]

Thanks fellas. I appreciate it. Don, what may the 75gr 3F be doing to accuracy vs. 65gr? Should I keep the same wad and powder stack or should I compress it more with the 65grs? I've heard a lot of good about OE but I have a lot of Swiss and KIK around to burn up before I get some OE. I have JoJoba oil so I'll give it a try on the patch. I would like to be able to just use a blow tube like I do with a greaser but if I can get repeatable accuracy with wiping I'll do it.

[Don McDowell]

75 grs just may not be the powder charge that rifle and bullet like. 75 grs of 3f Swiss is a pretty hot powder charge and you could be doing some damage to the bullet. Leadpot recovered a couple of patched bullets that had been fired with a stiff charge of 3F that almost twisted in two, were wasp waisted at best. You could have something similar going on.
Going with your 446 slicks it won't hurt anything to seat deeper into the case especially if repeated firing without wiping is your goal.

[mustanggt]

Should I also try loading some 1F KIK in it instead of 3F?

[Don McDowell]

2f KIK or Swiss 1.5 would likely be better than the 3f Swiss. Never messed with any 1f KIK, but did get some fairly decent results with 1.5 KIK running 72 grs.

[mustanggt]

I've got some 1 1/2 KIK for the big 50 and so I can use it for that as well. I'm also looking at a BACo PP mould for the 50 2 1/2" so will work up loads for that concurrently with the 45 2 1.0" It appears that BACO has only one slick at 449 and patch to the 50 bore. It is 500 grs. and should be a little kinder to my shoulder.

[Don McDowell]

Goex's long discontinued Cartridge sure works good in the big 50, KIK 1.5 might be just the ticket in that big case as well.

[Lead pot]

A .446" bullet is not to large patched to .451" or .452". I use a .444" and patch it to .451 or to .452". I patch all of my bullets .001 to .002" over bore diameter because that is where my accuracy is with all of my rifles.
It beats me why some would run a PP bullet through a push through die patched or unpatched. This is fine for making noise and smoke on the firing line and hitting iron at Cowboy ranges. Get the proper diameter mould if you cant push a one or two thousands bullet over bore into the throat using your thumb, seat it a little deeper in the case but don't screw up a good bullet by changing it's shape running it through push through sizing die.
I prefer using a blow tube as much as I can. During the very hot days like say what you will get in Montana at the Quigley match when the barrel gets so hot that the screws holding the wood forearm will burn your hand a blow tube will not do the job any more even if you take a swig of water before using the tube the fouling will get away from you no matter what black powder your using. I get better accuracy using the tube if conditions permit.
Using a PP bullet for hunting is a different story and it is cast and patched all together differently as well as the bullet designs.

[Gunlaker]

Kurt what are your thoughts on FFFg and bore diameter bullets? I think I remember you saying that you've been able to make it work with some effort, or am I wrong? I gave up on the FFFg Express for PP and save it for the greasers as it just wasn't working as well as the FFg Express.

From what I can see, Fg and FFg work best for me with bore diameter bullets from .38-55 to .45-110.

Chris.

[mustanggt]

Thank you again for the help. You fellas have always been good about answering questions from those of us who are short on knowledge but long on desire. I have some casting and wrapping to do. I just got done reading Wrights book again so I'm getting up to speed quickly.

[Lead pot]

Kurt what are your thoughts on FFFg and bore diameter bullets? I think I remember you saying that you've been able to make it work with some effort, or am I wrong? I gave up on the FFFg Express for PP and save it for the greasers as it just wasn't working as well as the FFg Express.

From what I can see, Fg and FFg work best for me with bore diameter bullets from .38-55 to .45-110.

Chris.


Chris.

I have worked with 3F Goex, Goex Express and 5# of 3F kik plus 5# 3f Swiss. I have had some good success but more mediocre.
When Powder inc. first got some 3F I had 5# of 3f Olde Eynsford added to the case of 2F and shot it in the .44-90BN and found out that it is a very hot powder in that large capacity case with 108 grains. I shot 3 shot ladder groups and it did not do well in that rifle with the best three shots that went 3-1/4" @ 200 yards but man did that dust kick up in a hurry down range at 1530 avg fps using a 485 gr bullet.
I put it aside for a while until I got the .44-100 Rem st and this year I used up the rest of the 3F OE in the .44-100 st with my 480 gr prolate and the KAL 500 gr elliptical and the .45-2.4 and I found one 3 shot ladder load using the .44-100 Rem put three shots @ 200 yards where I put three fingers together like a clover leave and was able to cover the three shots using the MVA scope on that rifle. I worked up loads twice using the .45-2.4 and twice I shot three shot groups where the largest was 2.5" @200 using the Danielson 513 gr prolate PP bullet with light compression of .200".
This prompted me to get a case of 3F OE for further work using it. But the jury is still out.

[Gunlaker]

Thank Kurt. Did you change the wads at all for those promising FFFg loads?

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Chris.

My wad stack pretty much stays the same. The over the powder wad might change as well as the lube wad depending on the time of year. "temp" I pretty much stick with a OJ carton wad over the powder it keeps the oil in my lube from leaching through like some of the wads cut from gasket materials. Over the lube under the bullet I mostly use a OJ wad plus a 1/16" cork plus a .012" florescent orange card cut from poster material under the bullet. The cork wad serves several jobs. It will expand when the charge goes off and seals the bore even as the cartridge case expands it will expand with the case where a card, plastic or fiber wad will not. The cork also holds my lube that is a lot softer than most use from getting past the under bullet wad from keeping the lube from gluing the card if it was used from gluing to the bullet base plus holding some of the patch to the base and dragging it behind for a longer distance down range. I have found wads down range past the 100 yard line with the patch stuck to it when I don't use the cork in chambers that are what I call oversized.

[mustanggt]

I'm interested in wad stack too. I now use 30 over powder then a grease cookie then another 30 under the boolit. The wad material PTFE gasket material. I don't know if this is great as I've used nothing else. I use the same wad in my greaser load as well. I like the function of the cork wad as you describe it. Where can I get this material from? I think I read about rubberized cork as a wad from someone else here. Don maybe or Kenny? Anyway I'm interested in other wad stacks to see if that can help me out. Thanks

[Lead pot]

I don't like the rubberized cork it's not dense enough. I used to get some fine bulk cork at TSC but they don't stock it in our store anymore. I now get it from http://www.charlescantrill.com/images/extra-large/gasket-materials-roll-1.jpg I can get some very dense fine granule 1/32 to 1/8"