why do i have to push .40 so hard?

[guncheese]

.40 s&w just seems to be the opposite of .45acp
in 45 low slow is the way to go
in 40 if i do that, i get patterns instead of groups
and get keyholing at even 10 yds
the load i would like to use is the Lee TL401-175SWC over 3gr of RedDot at 1.135"
the bore is .3997-.4004" , so i thought that the tumble lube boolit would be just the right ticket ( i better slug that bore again to make sure im not talking out of my *** )
it gives me leading, not bad but bad enough.
if i crank it up then they dont keyhole but the leading gets worse

well i tried some powder coated unsized boolits and they dont keyhole and the leading even at hot level isnt a big thing
but i think the PC made them to big and i dont have a .401" sizer
ill order one next week and size after coating.

so why do we have to push them so hard
i guess the same thing applies to 9mm
do i need boolit that is heavier yet?
powder is cheaper than lead but i dont want to be using 6gr of something when 3gr should do the job

anybody else run into this ?

[popper]

40 is a high pressure load. Harder/tougher alloy needed. Try water dropping.

[Ben]

If you gun will chamber a .401 " bullet or possibly even a .402" bullet,you might see the leading disappear.

That is assuming your mold is casting that large ? ?

Ben

[guncheese]

well i know i can keep the leading at bay with the powder coat
i forgot to mention that im going to also get a M-die for .40 as im pretty sure that the Lee expander plug isnt reaching into the case far enough
so i may have better news after that and sizing to .401" (maybe lap the sizer up to .402" )

ill be down right giddy if i can get a .402" dia. coated boolit to shoot well with 3gr of BE or E3 or Promo or what ever. instead of having to use twice as much of a slower powder

should i move up to a 200gr boolit?
or is that just for the gaming guys trying to make major with a STI gun seated long ?

[Old Caster]

The heavier the bullet is in any gun, the easier it is to make a power factor. I have a feeling that you are swaging down your bullet with the case, or you are using an FCD and doing it. If you get a case expander it might help and although I have never tumble lubed a bullet, I have heard too many people that I respect the opinions of say that it can cause problems which might be why it works OK with the powder coat.

[runfiverun]

the powder coated boolits have to follow the same rules as naked ones do.
you just made stuff fit better with the wrap.
try again [maybe drop the boolit in favor of a stronger design]

[guncheese]

me thinks that the M-die will help me alot, i use one for .45acp and it lets me load good fat boolits
im darn sure that i was swaging it down with the case, and the powder coat just helped me a smidge with the leading
i am convinced of the efficacy of dry tumble powder coat its easy clean and fast. im sure i wont do it for my high volume loads, as tumble lubing with 45/45/10 is so easy
but i wont be shooting the .40 alot so ill powder coat those
did coat some .429-200-LRF for dads Marlin levergun, will keep from having to worry about leading in that one, and .44 magnum just looks cool coated!

[Whitespider]

Keyholing at lower velocity indicates an under-stabilized boolit. The longer (heavier) a boolit is, the faster the rifling twist required to stabilize it. When you increase velocity the "spin" rate imparted to the boolit is increased... so going on that simplicity, a heavier (longer) boolit will make things worse.

But it's not always quite that simple. If the boolit is undersized, or of too soft an alloy for the application, or both, it may be skidding across the lands. A skidding boolit will still get some "spin" imparted on it, but it's severely damaged and leaves a lot of lead in the bore... usually long, thin, wire-like strips in the grooves packed in against the breech side of the lands. Depending on how bad skidding is, the leading begins just ahead of the chamber and may continue part way, or all the way to the muzzle.

And it can get more complicated yet... for example...
At lower velocity and pressure your longer and undersized(?) boolit may be skidding and/or experiencing flame-cutting and/or being under-stabilized. When you "crank it up" to higher velocity and pressure the boolit base may be obturating enough to seal the bore, reducing flame-cutting and helping the boolit better grab the rifling (gaining some added stabilization)... but now you've exceeded the yield strength of the alloy, which causes bore leading also.

Of course these are just examples... you haven't stated the alloy you're using, and you haven't verified boolit diameter is being reduced during seating. I'm just guessing, but it sounds as though there's more than one single issue requiring correction/attention. With that said... and I'm just tossing this in as personal experience, others have had different experiences... I've never been able to get any tumble-lube design to shoot well, and I've never be able to use Lee Liquid Alox past bunny-fart loads without barrel leading.

In any event... the first thing you must do before anything else matters... is verify the boolit is leaving the cartridge case at proper diameter. There is nothing that can offset the negative effects of an undersized boolit (especially the base)... nothing‼ Everything else is a waste of your time until the boolit is entering the barrel at a diameter equal to, or better yet, slightly greater than groove diameter.

Oh... I use a 150 grain boolit in my .40...

[petroid]

I had a custom powder through expander insert for my lee dies made by a member here. The factory one was .398 and expanded to .396 the custom one is .401 and leaves my brass at .399 giving me 2 thou of grip and no swaging down. I would recommend it. It also expands deeper

[guncheese]

reslugged the bore and i was wrong!
its .4006" - .401"
so that means that the coated boolits at .402" - .403" are right on target (pun intended)
so that really just leaves swaging in the case and ill test that in a bit

as far as alloy its air cooled 50/50 or so COWW/SOWW
i really cant see that its going to matter to much with the powder coat

[Old Caster]

Your alloy will be fine as long as they aren't being swaged down.

[Jupiter7]

I've downloaded a lot of .40 this year for 3gun. I run the mihec 190 with a deep HP(187grs) out of straight range scrap and size .401 w/Ben's red over a light charge(5.3grs, below published) of AA#5 in my STI Eagle, averages 810fps. Bullet is short and will allow it to be pushed hard if needed. I've also loaded them above published after research of bullet length and seating depths of bullets used in published data. Long story short, if you wanna download, as above, short heavy bullets are the ticket to success. Also, I've used lee dies and have had zero issues with swaging bases, but agree that a better expander wouldn't hurt. I believe someone here had Member Buckshot make them a new expander plug for their lee die in .40. Check the group buy results thread for the mihec 10/40 200gr.

[popper]

M die in 40 doesn't work. Get someone to cut down a 41 plug or make an expander for your die. Neither of my 40s will take a 402 without causing leading & I PC. WST leads my 9, 231 doesn't. Unless you WD, you may never get the results you are after. Whitespider has the answers. I have both Lee moulds, they work when you get the alloy & powder right. My load is 4.5 231 for 165 or 175 boolits, not much more than your 3 gr load. Don't use 5.5 much but it works. 40 is NOT a 45acp!

[JRR]

I use an inside expander die for the 38-40 Win. RCBS makes it for their classic or cowboy die sets. It creates a .399 inside for my .401 cast boolits in the 40S&W. No downsizing and no leading in my CZ75BSA.
Jeff

[Harter66]

I had the same thing in an XD40 w/that bullet. I had to water drop WW to get the tumbling stopped. The groups didn't come in until near max loads. The XD I loaded for has a 401 groove ,but my mould drops 403. I also use a desert tweeked Darrs lube on them rather than tumbled. So I guess my suggestion is switch to ww water drop maybe try a double tumble or different lube. Somewhere in here I read that the Leelox doesn't always work well in high pressure rounds.

[Love Life]

You have to run it that hard because that is the cartridge's performance envelope.

[Ed_Shot]

OK....I'm always open to learning something new. I use a G22 w/LW barrel and my usual load with Lyman 401043 (170 gr)is Promo 4.0 @ 980 fps and with Lyman 401645 (150 gr) is Promo 4.2 gr @ 1000 fps. I'm using Promo because I'm lucky enough to have plenty. The only other suitable powder I have for 40 SW is Unique and I'm trying to conserve it. Looking at my Lyman 4th Ed. I got concerned that I was driving the 170 gr too hard. I have no leading and see no pressure signs it's just that all the top end loads for 175 gr. in the manual seem to be around 1000 fps. Last week at the range I had 25 each of the 170 gr and 150 gr loaded with Promo 3.8 and found that function and accuracy were just fine but haven't had a chance to chrony the lighter load.

Granted, Lyman does not list Red Dot/Promo in its 40 SW loads. What "envelope" should I be trying to stay inside for best and safe performance?

[Love Life]

Dunno.

[leeggen]

I use coww/Pb add some tin and water drop. I use the 401-145swc boolit over 7.0 gr. of AA#5I was useing 7.8 gr. of AA#5 I now see some leading but minamal. I am thinking of changing powder to AA#7 just to see if it helps. Now where inthe ++ll can I find AA#7 for sale.
CD

[harley45]

I don't know that it will help much but in my 10mm with that same bullet using 50/50 pure and WW I don't get leading if the bullet is the proper size but in order to get any accuracy I have to be above 900FPS. I tried some at 750FPS so my young kids could shoot it but I also got patterns and not groups

[guncheese]

looks like i opened a can O' worms with this one
i was planing/hoping to be able to take the .45acp approach to this
and be able to run 3.0gr reddot under the 175. that runs the gun fine and its a very easy shooting load, but it patterns and leads
so i will get a proper expanding die and grab a 145gr mold and see if i can make that work out at 4.0gr of reddot or BE
none of this really has to do with the powder coating but i was using it as a sizing crutch
yesterday i shoot several loads the best seemed to be 5gr of BE under that 175gr coated LSWC
right behind that was 7.4gr bluedot
followed by 5.5gr WSF
all downhill from there

[Love Life]

It wants more juice. Give it what it wants. if you want a cartridge you can download to your hearts content while having amazing function...then get a S&W model 28 revolver.

[Harter66]

5.7 Unique in the XD I load for 4'' off hand 25yd w/the 401-175 swc.

[Whitespider]

I used 6.0 grains WAP... when Winchester discontinued it I switched to 6.0 grains Silhouette (which appears to be the same thing), under a 150 grain SWC (Lee 401-145) at something 'round 950 FPS.
At 6.0 grains I'm ½ grain below listed starting load... all is well.
I'm not a Glock fan... know very little about them... but I've never experienced tumbling/keyholing or shotgun patterns with my Firestar, even with 180 grain boolits at velocities well under 800 FPS. I'm not so sure I buy into the "cartridge's performance envelope" thing... more likely it has to do with the gun's design/function than the cartridge.

[Love Life]

I'm not so sure I buy into the "cartridge's performance envelope" thing... more likely it has to do with the gun's design/function than the cartridge.

Me neither...wait! What?

[Maximumbob54]

There are lots of people throwing out lots of absolutes in this thread. I thought it was accepted common knowledge in casting that sometimes you can do all the “right” things for a good cast bullet and still get either leading or dismal accuracy if not both. I’ve learned there is always that certain amount of black magic in what it takes to get it to work. I use the same Lee mold, cast with range scrap which is pretty soft, I PC them in HF gloss red with either dry tumble or the ES spray gun and I never get leaded and the accuracy isn’t bullseye master worthy but very range blaster fun. I do use the Lee .401" sizing die once they are coated. They are loaded over a very light load of Titegroup (which I agree is a terrible powder for the .40SW but I can’t find any Power Pistol right now) and they are very mouse fart in recoil. I was worried at first if it would have enough energy to be reliable but so far so good. Am I saying that is what works? No, it’s just what works in my M&P40c and Shield. Oh, and I set the crimp with the LFCD… (Oh no’s…)

[DR Owl Creek]

I'm still working on mine, and I'm not ready to brag yet. Here's what I've done so far, and how its worked. I'm using a 180 gr LCN mould, straight WW alloy, water dropped, and sized to .402". All the loads were loaded on a progressive press, but the powder charges were all weighed on a digital powder dispenser, after that the bullets were seated, and then crimped separately. I fired my test loads in a SIG 229 from a bag on a bench at 25 yards.

Most accurate load: 6.7 gr IMR 800-X, with bullet seated to 1.125" OAL. No leading. Point of impact, however, was about 3" below point of aim. 800-X is one of my favorite powders for jacketed bullets in both 40 S&W and 45 ACP, but I weigh all my powder charges. If you use a volumetric powder dispenser, you probably won't like 800-X.

Second most accurate load: 5.0 gr Unique, with bullet seated to 1.125" OAL. No leading. Point of impact about 3/4" below point of aim.

Third most accurate load: 4.5 gr W-231, with bullet seated to 1.125" OAL. No leading. Point of impact also at about 3/4" below point of aim.

Hope this helps,

Dave

[guncheese]

I'm not so sure I buy into the "cartridge's performance envelope" thing.

me neither
thats why im a wonderin about it
seems that 9mm and .40 are the ones that have the issue
and i dont get it

was out this morn and shot up all the remaining test loads
going to try 4.5gr of 231
and some 3.5gr of RD
and 3.5gr of BE
this isnt rocket science

[Love Life]

me neither
thats why im a wonderin about it
seems that 9mm and .40 are the ones that have the issue
and i dont get it

was out this morn and shot up all the remaining test loads
going to try 4.5gr of 231
and some 3.5gr of RD
and 3.5gr of BE
this isnt rocket science

They have the issue when you try to load them light to save powder? I hope you have great success with this cartridge.

[Whitespider]

"They"??
What is "they"??
Why would a cartridge... any cartridge... need more pressure to preform than another??
It's a friggin' brass case, with powder, boolit and primer... just like all of 'em.
Yeah... a particular firearm may need a certain pizzazz to operate consistently/correctly... but the cartridge itself??
Ain't buyin' it... never experienced it...

[CGT80]

Tag

I loaded some test rounds last night for my XD service 40. The boolits were from an NOE 160 RN. A member set me up with some samples from range scrap. The range scrap boolits were air cooled and they get swaged down a bit. I have some leading from factory lead semi wad cutter bullets sized to 401 with hard lube and very tough alloy, but they shoot great. My test boolits are sized to 401 and 402, with cred and soft lube. The 402 fits real snug in my barrel. The factory barrel must not have any taper to it.

I am trying to decide whether to just buy factory bullets or to make use of the free range scrap I can pick up and try to find a combo my gun will like. I run the 155 swc at 1,000 fps. It feels pretty soft, but people have commented that they see a decent amount of muzzle flip from my gun. This load works great for 3 gun and action pistol. I use hp38 powder. If I have to add hard alloy to my scrap, it will mean for less savings with casting my own. I don't know if my range scrap will harden from a water drop. I don't have a hardness tester.

I am waiting to test these loads to see how they run and if leading is a major issue. I can get 40 cal factory bullets for 70 bucks per k and it is quick and easy to use. On the other hand, I could save some of that money and have the satisfaction of making my own, but it takes some work too.

[Harter66]

WS, valid point about power thresholds. However 2.0 Unique is alot of plink in 38/357 w/a round ball in revolvers even levers it doesn't work worth a hoot in 9mm or 40 semi-autos. Rifles carbines or pistols except the rarely seen RBH and Trackers which again don't need gas,case/boolit volume/speed to function. speaking only for myself I've never really enjoyed shooting a straight pull single shot BHP or XD.

[Love Life]

Why would a cartridge... any cartridge... need more pressure to preform than another??


Why do they recommend soft bullets and make special bullets that expand at low velocities for short barreled hand guns?

Come on over to Nevada sometime and I'll show you how horsepower allows a heavier (longer) bullet to stabilize in a 1 in 10 and a 1 in 9 twist .243, and when loaded to the low end you get tumbling.

I'll show you why you have to juice a 175 to stay stable out to distance in a 1 in 12 308.

Then we can destroy a box of beer while catching trout.


So, real situations where more pressure is needed or wanted for adequate and/or peak performance.

Nobody has to "listen" to what I "Say" on here. As a matter of fact, I highly recommend people don't listen to what I say and go experiment and find an answer.

[Menner]

I shoot a lee 401-175-TC that has been hollow pointed by Erik at hollow point bullet molds I have 2 40 s&w hand guns one is a Browning Hi Power Clone FEG and the other is my carry gun a Taurus PT 740 and I shoot 5gr red dot right at 1000 fps out of the FEG and 900 out of the Taurus have tried it with air cooled coww and pure lead did get some leading with the Pure lead ( kinda expected that ) but would like to use it for my carry gun so the next step is I got some PB gas checks from a member here and have them on and sized but have not got a chance to load and shoot them yet but really like the way they fit and seat on the boolit hope to get them loaded next week ( but Flounder fishing has started and I do like them flat fish) but that may be an option for you. Have thought about using a composite boolit but if the pb gas checks work I will use them in the carry gun rather then go through the trouble of composite boolit manufacture. I will also try heat treating the ammo for the FEG for the range have had some really good success heat treating with my 7mm 08 and will give it a run with the 40 soon.
Good Luck
PS I tumble lube with ALOX

[blikseme300]

9mmP and 40S&W are a can of worms unto themselves not seen in other pistol cartridges with CB's. The following are my opinions but they work for me.

The hard boolits mantra in pistol - it is wrong as I point out below. Hard boolits are needed for these cartridges as the cases will swage down softer boolits due to the proportionally thicker cases than for example the 45ACP when standard reloading dies are used. Two solutions to this problem: hard CB's or expand the case prior to seating. The first can be taken care of by hard alloys that are often water dropped. The second can be taken care of by using a proper expander suited to softer alloy by opening up the case prior to seating. I went the second route and use own made custom expanders for both 9mmP and 40S&W that open up the case to the boolit seating depth and give a small bevel to the mouth to ease seating. I use very soft alloy and push the boolits hard with good accuracy and no leading.

A side note. Boolit harness and toughness are not the same. When I started CB loading for rifle I soon learned that too hard boolits are often brittle and will break up in flight before reaching the target. I used pure Lino as I had it and falsely believed that these hard boolits would somehow just work. After much reading and experimenting I learned that I was foolish in going the pure Lino route and why this was happening. I have since learned that I can shoot quite soft but tough alloys to achieve the results I wanted.

In a nutshell for 9mmP, 40S&W and other pistols I use quite soft alloy for boolits that are air cooled, lube sized and then seated in cases that have been opened up with a proper expander. YMMV

[fredj338]

I think your issue is the TL bullet. I run acww, conventional lube grooved 0.401" bullets @ 800-900fps, run just fine. Same holds for 9mm that many complain about.
The swaging of the bullet during seating can be an issue, but it depends on your dies & brass used. That variable seems greater in 9mm than 40 or 45 Ime.

[popper]

Then we can destroy a box of beer while catching trout. Works for me. How about the 45acp is a 12-15K psi cartridge, while the 40 & 9 are 25-35K psi cartridges? Don't be cheap & complain, get the right powder & alloy.