Loading Question - MH 577/450

[wekloehn]

I loaded 20 rounds of Martini Henry 577/450 with a 450 grain bullet (.466 dia) over 85 grains of BP. Between them I included kapok, card, grease cookie, and card (in that order). Three of the rounds I seated the bullet at .361 in the case (OAL of the bullet is 1.135). The OAL of the complete cartridge is 3.053. Does anyone think that's too short? Typical OAL of this cartridge is from 3.1 to 3.2. I believe the MH chamber is ~ 2.87. I haven't done any measurements of the bore and I'm not looking for accuracy at this point. I just want to have fun and smell the Devil's sulfur.

106279

[zuke]

Try'em out and see what happen's. Worse that can happen is you miss the target, but you still get the rush!

[rollmyown]

Let us know how it works. All us kids still love dinosaurs!

[curator]

If it chambers it should shoot OK. Since the diameter if the bullet is a bit on the small side you might run a damp "pull-through" every couple of shoots to keep the throat fouling from building up and preserve your accuracy. The MH is a FUN gun to shoot! I gotta wonder at the toughness of 'ol Tommie Atkins considering the stout recoil of the standard military issue cartridge.

[Boz330]

I shoot a .460 / 385gr boolit in mine which is way short of listed OAL. This is a 100yd group shot with that boolit.

Bob

[wekloehn]

Thanks guys for all the good info and encouragement. I'm going shoot'n. I'll let you know how it goes.

[sthwestvictoria]

I shoot a .460 / 385gr boolit in mine which is way short of listed OAL. This is a 100yd group shot with that boolit.

Bob
Nice work. Is that a black powder load with a filler?

[Boz330]

Nice work. Is that a black powder load with a filler?

Yes it is. But wasn't shot with the stock sights.

Bob

[bigted]

this is a great thread. i have so far stayed away from these rifles because i simply dont need another project ... but ... now you instigators have me wondering about what the rifles retail for? dont get me wrong tho ... i CANT do another project yet ... LOL.

sounds interesting tho. thanks for the post and i will follow this with interest.

[Boz330]

Oh come on Ted you know you want one!

Bob

[bigted]

Bob ... heya ... this is the why i am staying round with this crowd ... everybody helps me keep my money and resist temptation.:drinks:

[zuke]

Finding the brass is the tricky part.

[herbert buckland]

There a couple of people selling brass made from 24 gauge shot shell at a very reasonable price

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I've worked at accurising these MH 's for over 30 years. This 10 shot group fired with a standard rifle and sights at 50yds

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/577_450_50m.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/577_450_50m.jpg.html)

[zuke]

How low did you have to hold to get it to print like that?

[enfield]

Ya but that group was shot 8 years ago !! the gun was practically NEW !

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Ok so it's only 99% new, now! :bigsmyl2:

[stephenj]

im not quite as good a shot as the other fellows , but this is what my mkIV shoots
@100 yards with a 480 grain bullet from a home made mold with 11 grains of unique
its a quite pleasant anyone can shoot it popgun load 106925

[skeettx]

I, also, like Unique
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/MVC-006S22.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/466-475-GC.jpg
BUT mine cut without gas check minimum diameter

Mike

[rollmyown]

Are the Unique users using a filler? What kind and how much?

Those are some impressive groups!

[skeettx]

No fillers, powder is positioned at the base before loading

[Bad Ass Wallace]

This group fired at 200yards with the Queen Victoria rifle competition (7 rounds best 5 to count)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/Picture044.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/Picture044.jpg.html)

[rollmyown]

No fillers, powder is positioned at the base before loading

Do you mean tip your rifle muzzle up before firing?

[rollmyown]

This group fired at 200yards with the Queen Victoria rifle competition (7 rounds best 5 to count)



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/Picture044.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/Picture044.jpg.html)

Outstanding group for 200M mate, I like the best five count rule!

[skeettx]

No, do not lift the rifle up, tap the base of the cartridge on the bench,
then load, then shoot, provides consistency.
In my 308 cast bullets, I do just the opposite, I position the powder behind
the bullet.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/MVC-025S13.JPG
Just whatever works
Mike

[sthwestvictoria]

This is an interesting thread with some strain gauge pressure testing of smokeless and BP in the Martini-Henry:
First Goex:
http://i57.tinypic.com/2ion69.jpg
Then 4198:
107497
and 2400, Blue Dot
107498
And Trail Boss - quite a heroic load of it however:
http://i59.tinypic.com/k0o6k7.jpg

The original forum posts are here:
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/reply/18955/Martini-Henry-Chamber-Pressures#reply-18955
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/reply/18885/More-Martini-Chamber-Pressures#reply-18885

They are old threads from 2007 and the chap with the pressure testing gear (user Southernfi) suggests he is going to re-shoot some and shoot some more loads. Unfortunately the other posters seem to get on their hobby horses and run him down and that user made no more pressure related posts. Has any one else come any other similar pressure testing with the MH? I was suprised about the low pressure results using 4198 - it may be that smokeless is actually kinder to old BP firearms than BP!?!?!

[rollmyown]

Interesting graphs and information, thanks for posting.

[sthwestvictoria]

It is very interesting - actually seeing what is going on with these various loads. The caveat is this is not true copper crusher cup or piezo pressure barrel data - this device uses a strain gauge on the outside of the chamber barrel and measures barrel chamber stretching to arrive at a pressure result (same as the Oehler 43 pressure recorder). This is a picture of the strain gauge stuck across the chamber of a Schultz & Larsen RPLT 42:
http://dutchman.rebooty.com/images/image016-16.jpg
And this is the link to the company that makes the strain gauge and interpretive software, $579 for the set up:
http://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm
It would be something fun for a club to purchase to use.

[Southernfi]

I was looking at the site today and saw my old post about Martini Henry pressures here. I eventually settled on using 34.5 grains of SR4759 with the 480 grain bullet. I don't have the graph any more and haven't run the program in years, but that load pretty much overlayed the BP curve the best. I did get a better downside curve due to more effeciency in the powdeer burn that resulted in about 200 fps more velocity than with BP. I have shot a lot of rounds with this load and it requires no filler and I have had no bad signs in my rifles.

[sthwestvictoria]

I was looking at the site today and saw my old post about Martini Henry pressures here.
Welcome to the site - what a serendipitous meeting! Thank you for providing the data, so useful to actually see what is going on rather than run on conjecture.
Are you still shooting the Martini-Henry?


I eventually settled on using 34.5 grains of SR4759 with the 480 grain bullet. I don't have the graph any more and haven't run the program in years, but that load pretty much overlayed the BP curve the best. I did get a better downside curve due to more effeciency in the powdeer burn that resulted in about 200 fps more velocity than with BP. I have shot a lot of rounds with this load and it requires no filler and I have had no bad signs in my rifles.

That is very interesting and particularly the opportunity to avoid using fillers. Some people suggest using a magnum primer to get the ignition right into the large case - did you have to do this with SR4759?
The use of SR4759 fits in with other pressure testing work (albeit in the 45-70) that is displayed in this thread from the PacoKelly forum (scroll to bottom for pressure traces):
http://www.levergunscommunity.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7823&view=previous&sid=260266173e5e2c2cee7368f5e3bb6294
Unfortunately there was a post here somewhere that SR4759 was going to be discontinued? Certainly doesn't seem available here in Australia.

[Southernfi]

Still shooting the Martini, it's one of my favorite rifles. I've always used regular large pistol primers in the reformed Magtech cases with no problem. I recently installed a William Malcomb scope on one of my MKII's. I haven't zeroed it in yet, but I hope to make a decent long range shooter out of it.

[6mm win lee]

I was looking at the site today and saw my old post about Martini Henry pressures here. I eventually settled on using 34.5 grains of SR4759 with the 480 grain bullet. I don't have the graph any more and haven't run the program in years, but that load pretty much overlayed the BP curve the best. I did get a better downside curve due to more effeciency in the powdeer burn that resulted in about 200 fps more velocity than with BP. I have shot a lot of rounds with this load and it requires no filler and I have had no bad signs in my rifles.

Welcome to the site, sir. I have started to get an interest in the MartiniHenry. Your charts are interesting and look very useful.

Six

[Buckshot]

.............I have a MkIV Martini - Henry 577-450, and did try BP in it once :-) I settled on a smokless load of 38.0grs IMR3031, Dacron, card wad under the slug. I used the Lee 457 - 405-F as cast of pure lead, and patched with 20 lb bond for .472" over the dried patch.

http://www.fototime.com/0FDEA25C2215222/standard.jpg

Here are 60 rounds in Bertram cases of the above load. They are quite accurate. Velocity is about 1250 fps. I used to shoot it in our club's 200 meter silhouette side match. No problems fetching the 200 meter ram.


My efforts with BP were not so much fun and much less productive :-) In this instance I used the Lee 450gr slug as cast of pure lead and patched as above for the same .472" OD. It's been quite a few years ago now but IIRC I had 110grs of Elephant 2 FG in the Bertram cases which reached right to the base of the neck when compressed. I had a stack of cardwads and two 1/8" thick grease cookies stacked in there together too. I fired them off the bench and by the 2nd or 3rd shot the whole left side of the rifle was covered in slobber. After about 7 rounds I was starting to ask other people up and down the line if they'd like to try it. I got a few takers but no repeats. With less then 10 rounds left to empty out I was trying to PAY people to shoot them! By the end of the range session, and by shooting one or two every hour or so I finally managed to get rid of them all.

....................Buckshot

[Hooker53]

Hey Rollmyown. I been watching hoping Stephan or another Unique loader would give up there secrets here But. Lol. Stephan did say 11 grains but I'm wondering about the wadding or stuffing he used. Can someone help me and Rollmyown on this?? Thanks
Roy.

[zuke]

I've been using 15gr of 700X held in place with 2 square's of toilet paper tamped one after the other.

[Hooker53]

That sounds easy enough Zuke. I'll add 700X to my buy list. Anyone out there have a good Blue Dot load and how you wadded it?

[enfield]

from "cyber shooters" ? blue dot 27 gr, 400 gr bullet 1400 fps. blue dot 22 gr, 475 gr bullet, 1220 fps. 4759 27 gr 400 gr bullet 1172 fps. 25 gr 4759 , 475 gr bullet , 1109 fps. . no mention of wads or fillers, I would not use any c.o.w or corn meal or such thing as they form a solid plug that could be dangerous.

[zuke]

That sounds easy enough Zuke. I'll add 700X to my buy list. Anyone out there have a good Blue Dot load and how you wadded it?

I picked up 14 lbs of it cheap ($40) so I'm getting creative with it.

[Tackleberry41]

How would something like solo 1000 compare in use to 700x? I bought a keg of it for cheap and have been trying to find uses for it, well besides 9mm, 38 spcl, and subsonic loads in 45-70 and 30-30.

I never had good luck with 4198, mostly hang fires, a big wad of somewhat scorched powder, and the bullet just barely out of the case. Trailboss does a good job, but I dont use as much as some do, pressure chart above was with 26.5, im only running 22gr. I use rubber spacers under the powder, wedged down into the bottom of the case, a plumbing washer for sinks has a hole in the middle for the primer flash, a little bigger and it will go around the primer tower in magtech cases, 2 gets you level with the flash hole.

[zuke]

Never heard of Solo 1000. Where is it on a burn rate chart? if it's equal to of slower then go ahead and use it, but start low

[Tackleberry41]

Solo 1000 is an older Scot powder, but now made under the accurate name. The reloading place had a big 8lbs keg still under the scots label for a really good price.

Burn rate its right next to Green dot on the chart. Charge wight wise in 9mm or 45 auto its really close to Unique. So maybe low end unique charge wt and go from there?

[Southernfi]

I got to where I don't trust Trail Boss in a large case like the Martini. It doesn't have any effeciency in a case that large. With IMR 4198, I also encountered position sensetivity issues. SR4759 provided enough volume to utilize the case volume more effeciently and is not position sensitive.

[zuke]

Solo 1000 is an older Scot powder, but now made under the accurate name. The reloading place had a big 8lbs keg still under the scots label for a really good price.

Burn rate its right next to Green dot on the chart. Charge wight wise in 9mm or 45 auto its really close to Unique. So maybe low end unique charge wt and go from there?

That's where I'd start.

[fouronesix]

Solo 1000 looks kind of fast to me.
http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/burn_rates.pdf

[Tackleberry41]

They have red dot loads, solo 1000 is just a notch below that on the chart

[fouronesix]

No load recommendations from me on this one! Here's another burn rate chart as was the request by zuke.
http://www.lapua.com/upload/reloading/reloadingburningratechart2011.pdf

[stephenj]

I noticed that awhile back someone asked about fillers with the unique loads .

I do not use any fillers .. i also do not position the powder charge .
I do not position the powder because 11-12 grains of unique is just a tiny spot of powder in this huge case .
And with my reformed shot shot shell cases being a semi balloon head design a fair portion of the powder charge is actualy behind the flash hole if you position the powder at the back of the case