How to insure reliable priming?

[FergusonTO35]

I've been dealing with some small pistol primer troubles for awhile now. Some CCI primers were very hard and only my Marlin 1894 would set them off. For ammo that just has to work for self defense and hunting I use Remington or Federal. I still get maybe 1 in 200 that fail to fire. They act like they are hard primers with a small pinprick indentation. Sometimes they fire the second time and sometimes they don't. Even in cheap FMJ ammo from these makers a round with a bad primer is quite uncommon in my experience, maybe one in 3,000. The pistols used include an S&W 10-5, Ruger SR9c, Glock 19, and Kel-Tec PF9 and P32. All of them are in good condition and shoot great.

I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong here. My usual procedure is to resize and deprime as usual, then seat the primers with the Lee Auto Prime. Ordinarily I don't clean the primer pockets. I'm thinking that for important ammo maybe I should clean the primer pockets and seat the primers one at a time on the press. Perhaps the crud in the priming pockets is getting inside the primer, making it behave like a hard primer by cushioning the blow from the firing pin. Also, perhaps the Auto Prime is not too consistent about seating the primers square in the pocket. If they are even a little cockeyed maybe this would affect reliability.

Your thoughts and experiences? All my hunting and defense ammo is reloads because I don't like most factory centerfire ammo and don't shoot well with it.

[SOFMatchstaff]

You may not be seating the primers deep enough, they need to be bottomed out and .001 to .003 below flush, depending on the make of the brass.
My shooting buddy was having miss-fires with his M&P 9 with Win SP, I reset his press to seat .002 deeper and the problem went away .
CCI's are sensitive to this error, and will compound the problem in guns with marginal firing pin energy, ie. small pocket rockets and tuned target revolvers.

[upnorthwis]

Could be the gun too. I had a Model 70 Win that would misfire once in a while. Three different gunsmiths told me I didn't know how to reload. Even though none of the other 20 shells I load for had ever had a problem. Sent gun to Win. Came back with note that said: Minor adjustment. Hasn't misfired since.

[ReloaderFred]

Clean primer pockets and seating the primers to .004" below flush will solve all your misfire problems. I've reloaded well over 800,000+ rounds, in 31 different calibers, and I don't ever have misfire problems. Some of my firearms are tuned target guns, and they all go bang.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[lefty o]

primers get seated to bottom out in the primer pocket, this is the only way to insure they will detonate when you pull the trigger. measuring how far below flush they fit is all fine and dandy for consistency, but it does absolutely nothing for reliability.

[Bohica793]

I had the same issue with CCI small primers recently where 15-20% would not fire on first strike in three different weapons. I have never had an issue with Winchester or Federal primers. I won't buy another CCI primer for this reason.

[FergusonTO35]

Thanks guys! I am always amazed at the good responses people give around here. I'm currently prepping some clean once fired brass and cleaning each primer pocket. Most of them look ok but I'm surprised at how much junk is in some of them, even out of the same box of empties. I better redo all my go-to hunting and defense ammo while I'm at it. Considering how little of it you actually need its no big deal.

[ReloaderFred]

FergusonT035,

You can make your own brushes for cleaning primer pockets and chuck them in a cordless drill. I use the 1/8" plastic covered cable they sell at the hardware store and cut it about 1.5" long. Then I skin off about 1/4" of the plastic sheathing and square up the end of the cable on a grinding wheel.

I made myself a stand to hold a drill horizontal to the bench and picked up a variable speed drill for a dollar at a yard sale. I can clean 1,000 primer pockets in about 45 minutes and I don't end up with carpal tunnel syndrome afterwards...........

Hope this helps.

Fred

[44man]

Primers have the anvil sticking up a tad. Seat to bottom the rim and then a little to push the anvil in flush. To make the rim flush actually pushes the anvil in too. If you get a failure it is the hammer or firing pin spring. Get over it, the gun is not right, fix it. All primers should fire.

[roadie]

I would be looking at your primer seating method. If it happens with 5 different guns, it's either bad seating or bad primers. I've always found Remington primers to be on the hard side, Federal and Winchester softer.

Not to be smart here, but are you quite sure they are small pistol and not small rifle primers?

The cartridge in my avatar needs a soft primer, the rifle won't set off a Remington, CCI and Winchester or Federal work fine.

[Small Towner]

I agree with all of the above about seating technique being a main culprit. I have loaded thousands of 45 acp for various 1911 pistols and have never cleaned one of their primer pockets. Seat them until they stop, then give just a tad more pressure to seat the anvil.

[pretzelxx]

I believe if it's a bad primer seat, you strike it with a firing pin or the like and it seats all the way in. Just make sure they're not the softy primers, they might go bang and scare you!

Back to serious-land. Good info here, I'll be taking notes. I've had a couple issues with seating.

[FergusonTO35]

Thanks guys. Yes, they are most certainly small pistol and not small rifle primers.

[Petrol & Powder]

As others have stated, seating the primers fully is a key step. If the firing pin strikes the primer and the primer moves forward before it bottoms out in the primer pocket, most of the energy imparted by the firing pin is disapated by moving the entire primer. If the primer is fully seated, all of the energy from the firing pin is available to deform the primer cup and hopefully set off the priming compound inside.
Another major contributor to primer failures is oil contamination. A very small amount of oil will render a primer useless. Be careful how you handle primers and keep your hands/tools oil free.

[johniv]

I have shot a carload of cci lpp in the 1911, also cci lr in all maner of rifles, no problems. CCI small pistol primers when fired in DA mode , sometimes need a second strike , all seated the same ,firmly and till they stop ,below the level of the pocket, and I have NO custom revolvers.
John

[garym1a2]

I started getting no fires with my Glock 22 after many rounds thru it. Firing pin was worn, new firing pin fixed it.

[tazman]

FergusonT035,

You can make your own brushes for cleaning primer pockets and chuck them in a cordless drill. I use the 1/8" plastic covered cable they sell at the hardware store and cut it about 1.5" long. Then I skin off about 1/4" of the plastic sheathing and square up the end of the cable on a grinding wheel.

I made myself a stand to hold a drill horizontal to the bench and picked up a variable speed drill for a dollar at a yard sale. I can clean 1,000 primer pockets in about 45 minutes and I don't end up with carpal tunnel syndrome afterwards...........
Fred

I really like that idea. Thanks for posting it.

To the OP: I have been using CCI small pistol primers in my 9mm and CCI magnum small pistol primers in my 38/357 for some months now. I have had only 2 failures to fire in that time(about 3000 rounds). Those were in the 38 special loadings. I checked the primer depth after the misfires and found I had failed to seat those particular primers deep enough.
They all fired on the second trial though.

[GP100man]

My biggest problem is tite primer pockets !! I can`t feel when the primer hits bottom & then the primer is flush or a little rebated with the anvil not set & that`s when I have misfires.

I use a Hornandy hand tool for small & a press mounted Lee auto prime for large .
My hands are`nt as strong as they use to be & aurthur is startin to hang tuff.

My next move is the rcbs bench mounted priming tool , I think ???

GP

[bedbugbilly]

I load 9mm and 38 spl. All I use is mixed "range brass" with mixed head stamps. All I do is de-prime them with a universal depraver - give the priming hole a quick look and then seat a new primer in with the Lee Ergo Hand Primer. All I use is CCI and I've never had a problem (yet) with a misfire. Everyone primes differently but I like the Ergo Hand Primer as I can "feel" the primer being seated and know when it's in all the way. Some head stamps seat easier than others. I'm older and am not in a hurry - can easily prime 300 to 400 in an evening working at a steady pace. I just "plink" - have one 9mm and they all go bang and shoot the 38s out of 7 different revolvers - mostly vintage Smiths, Colts, etc.

That's just my experience though with the CCI small pistol primers I have on hand. I suppose it is possible they vary some from lot to lot?

[Old Caster]

The only time I can't use CCI primers is in tuned revolvers. Otherwise that is all I use because they are cheaper here and still work fine. I even use CCI small rifle primers in my Benelli 32 long and never have had a misfire. I don't clean primer pockets unless shooting a benchrest gun and load all except the BR cartridges on a Dillon 550 using the priming system on it. The primers for the BR are installed on a Lee primer because it is easy to feel so that you install every primer exactly the same and finish the loading process on a Sinclair. A lot of people that have just started in this game overdo things as though everything they are shooting is Benchrest.

[MtGun44]

I bet high primers.

Bill

[Harry O]

I use Winchester primers because they are the easiest to get around here. However, with shortages dating back to the first two years of Clinton, I have tried everything at one time or another. From my experience Federal are the softest. CCI are the hardest. Remington and Winchester are in between. I think that Remington are a little harder than Winchester, but the difference doesn't seem to be much.

Where this comes into play is what you have for your handgun springs. I have a Bill Davis PPC revolver that was built in the late 1980's. It has the lightest DA trigger pull I have ever shot. It also would NOT work reliably with any primer other than Federal. I have had several revolvers with Wolff light springs that occasionally will not fire with harder primers. I usually go back to factory springs on those. Do your guns have any lighter than factory springs in them?

[FergusonTO35]

All my pistols other than the SR9c and 19 have factory springs. The SR9c and 19 have extra power firing pin springs. I loaded 50 rounds of 9mm last night with Remington brass and primers. I cleaned the primer pockets and primed with my press instead of the hand tool. I can tell a difference already. The primers all went into the clean pockets easily to a firm stop. I added a little bit of pressure at the end of the stroke to ensure to properly seat them. You can tell they sit in the pocket a little lower and flatter than with dirty pockets and using the hand tool. Hopefully I can try them out soon.

[Hammerhead]

For important ammo I seat primers with the RCBS ram prime, set to seat by feel. I was surprised that some primer were as deep as -.009" below flush, but they all fire when seated to the bottom of the pocket.

[FergusonTO35]

That's what Im thinking. Cleaning the pockets and using the press to prime really doesn't take that much extra time, well worth it for ammo that might take a trophy or save your life.

[FergusonTO35]

Can't friggin believe it. Loaded up a box of once fired Remington brass, cleaned the primer pockets, primed with the press. Added 3.5 grains Bullseye and Lee 356-120-TC to 1.055 OAL- my favorite 9mm load. Out of twenty rounds fired today through my Ruger SR9c with extra power striker spring I got two hard primers!! Loaded a box of Federal brass, cleaned the pockets, primed with Federal primers on the press, added 3.4 grains Titewad and Lee 356-95-RF to 1.035 OAL. Fired 30 rounds out of Kel-Tec PF9. No hard primers, all went bang the first time, all rounds looked identical. Unless someone has a better idea I'm chalking this one up to hard primers.

106698

106699

[FergusonTO35]

106706

[Handloader109]

Did you try to fire them second time? Or swap to the Keltec? Maybe you have a bad batch of primers.

[FergusonTO35]

I tried to fire them twice, no luck. Didn't think to try them in the Kel-Tec, however it has had trouble with R-P primers before as well. At this point Im thinking it may be wise to redevelop all my important loads to use Federal primers and use the others strictly for practice. What's incredibly frustrating is that until the 2008 panic began a hard primer was a very rare occurrence for me and I mostly used CCI. I really think the manufacturers have dropped the ball on QC to push as much out the door as possible. And the hoarders and price gougers reward them for it!

[wv109323]

You may get more consistent primer setting if you seat the primer ,then rotate the case 90 degrees and seating the primer again. This should take away the possible crooked primer not seating fully.

[FergusonTO35]

I will try that, thanks. Heck for defense ammo it may be wise to buy some factory FMJ rounds, remove bullets and powder, then load with my pet charge and boolit. That would at least take the used brass, my primers, and skills out of the equation.

[FergusonTO35]

Been thinking alot about this problem and reading how other people deal with it. There is no way to guarantee that every single primer will do what it is supposed to, but there are ways to minimize it. For ammo that just has to work I'm going to use nothing but Federal primers. They have a reputation across the shooting community for being the softest. I can remember exactly one hard Federal primer in my whole life.

Also, I'm going to record the primer lot number on every box of ammo I load. Every time I encounter a defective primer all the primers with that lot number will be relegated to practice only. Hopefully that will ensure near 100% reliability for my important ammo. Now just have to load and test them all with Federal primers.

[FergusonTO35]

Currently I'm reloading and testing all my important ammo with Federal primers. I find that in many equivalent loads you won't get as much velocity with Federal primers as with Remington. For example, my usual Kel-Tec PF9 load is 3.2 grains Bullseye, Lee 356-120-TC, R-P primer at 1.053 OAL for a measured 955 fps. Swap in a Federal primer and the average velocity drops to 903. I can live with that because its a bit easier to shoot and still good performance out of a 12 ounce pistol. For my larger 9's I load 3.5 grains of Bullseye for 975 fps with the R-P primer, as measured from my Ruger SR9c. The same load with a Federal primer drops to 945, but addig a tenth of a grain of powder gets the average back up to 977.

The Federal primers are most definitely soft compared to others and probably going to leak with hot loads. My Ruger SR9c and Glock 19 have extra power firing pin springs. When I tried out the new loads with Federal primers I got about 10% pierced primers. These rounds also showed around 25 fps lower across the chronograph. I don't like that hot, high pressure gas leaking back into the gun so I'm going to put the factory firing pin springs back in. I'm also now recording the primer lot number on each box of ammo I load so that I can note which batches are hard and bring it to the attention of the manufacturers.

[gray wolf]

I had the same thing happen the other day with a Win. SPP My GP100 makes a heck of a dent in the primers.
This one had a light pin prick type of strike, tried 2 more times and the strike never got any deeper.
My vote, a small rifle primer got mixed into the batch.
I never clean pistol primer pockets, Heck, what do folks do when they load on a progressive ?

EDIT:

I just went and pulled the round in question, Winchester SPP are bright red or at least red inside when you look into the cup.
This one was not = a small rifle primer got into my SPP box, all new primers and NO chance I mixed them/it up.

I hand prime and always look at the primers when they are upside down in the tray, you can't miss the red color,
I missed that one Eh. Saying it should not have been there to begin with is no excuse now.

[FergusonTO35]

I can totally believe it n your case. Still, I would think that a GP would have no problem setting off a small rifle primer? I don't think an AR-15 has an incredibly powerful firing pin strike and they use a small rifle cartridge.

[gray wolf]

I can totally believe it n your case. Still, I would think that a GP would have no problem setting off a small rifle primer? I don't think an AR-15 has an incredibly powerful firing pin strike and they use a small rifle cartridge.

Yes of course you can, I have no reason to fib. I am just reporting my findings, and yes the GP100 has a strong
Hammer strike, no Mods on the springs. I checked the primer and it was seated as far in as it would go.
Just a very light hit, tried it twice. Pulled it and it was not a WW SPP

[22 rifle]

had your same problem when i 1st started loading.try this and i think it will fix it for you.1st wash your hands before handling the primers to remove oil and sweat from your skin.2nd try to not touch the primers if you can help it.use a pair of clean tweezers to turn them over.3rd get a hand primer seater like an rcbs or lee so that you can feel when the primer is seated to the bottom of the primer pocket.i started doing all of these things and have not had a misfire in years.

[bannor]

are you lubing your cases with an oily lube? I had a few problems with that, lube getting on my fingers and thus, onto the primers. I went to carbide sizer dies and stopped lubing cases, never again had a misfire. If you load serious rifle ammo, beware of this, and use a graphite based lube or be super careful about delubing cases, cleaning dies, hands, shellholders, etc. I've had lanolin based lubes contaminate powder charges, too.

[FergusonTO35]

The problem only happens with pistol rounds. I use carbide dies so no case lube involved. To be clear, the problem is hard primers, not primers which simply refuse to fire.

[William Yanda]

"You can make your own brushes for cleaning primer pockets and chuck them in a cordless drill. I use the 1/8" plastic covered cable they sell at the hardware store and cut it about 1.5" long. Then I skin off about 1/4" of the plastic sheathing and square up the end of the cable on a grinding wheel." Fred

Now that's as handy as pockets as they say!

[.22-10-45]

I have a Colt 2nd gen. S.A.A. .38 Spec. that Hamilton Bowman worked over. The action is slick & hammer pull is light..maybe too much so..I was experiencing a few misfires.. ( Fed. small pistol) rather than sending it back..I tried something else. I never was much of a fan for loading-press priming systems..but the info I read on my Forester Co-Ax claims the primer punch is factory set for .002" under case head. I have been priming all my cases for this particular sixgun on this press and have not experienced one missfire since.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

i chuck up the lee primer pocket cleaning tool in my cordless drill and go , but I am going to be on the look out for a cheap drill i can mount to the bench and use both hands to grab cases and keep the drill running , i could probably do nearly 2x as many

[opos]

i chuck up the lee primer pocket cleaning tool in my cordless drill and go , but I am going to be on the look out for a cheap drill i can mount to the bench and use both hands to grab cases and keep the drill running , i could probably do nearly 2x as many

I use a cheapie cordless to do both the primer pocked cleaning and the trimming/deburring with the lee tools and the shell holder that chucks into the drill motor...not the most high tech thing in the world but works fine...I also have a Lyman priming pocked tool and have had good luck with that..I just don't seem to have primer problems...When I tumble or wash cases I deprime them first...I use really fine walnut shells in the tumbler when I use it and have never had a plugged primer hole and the pockets come out nice and clean...I use one of the old style round tray Lee tools or if messing with a Lee hand press I use the little single primer tool that fits right in the press...slow but super positive...do that when making up ladder test packages.

[Virginia John]

I find the CCI to be a little troublesome at times when it comes to seating. That is usually caused by a military crimp or a really dirty primer pocket. A little more attention to case prep seems to be the answer.

[FergusonTO35]

I agree with case prep, less things that can go wrong. Still, hard primers strike me no matter what I do. I now use only Federal primers in my important ammo. I find I can duplicate the performance of my favorite 9mm load of 3.5 grains Bullseye/Remington primer/Lee 356-120-TC by using 3.7 grains Bullseye and a Federal primer. Both loads clock a consistent ~1000 fps out of my Glock 19 with great accuracy.

[mike in co]

your original post says most of the issue...they sometimes go off on the second strike.
this is one of two issues...as others have said.
one) the primer is not properly seated, and you are in affect re-seating with the firing pin..
two) check all the guns for proper spring tension/firing pin protrusion...just to eliminate the possible source.

a true primer failure..the primer's fault is a true rare issue..yep they happen but not 1in 200......more like 1 in 2,000,000.

[FergusonTO35]

I have experienced hard primers after cleaning the pockets and seating them on the press. Lately all the hard primers I have encountered would not fire in any of my guns, even those with extra power springs. Firing pin protrusion is within spec.